************ Topic 7 Sat Feb 02, 1991 DIPLOMACY-1 at 23:31 EST Sub: GMT Games GMT Games is the latest wargame company to join GEnie. 1 new messages. ************ ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 252 Sat Jul 29, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:08 EDT I've seen the (somewhat off-color) proofs of the 3-DoG maps . . . very, very impressive. It's as if Simonitch and Barber got married. Great detail but very clear . . . and wait'll you see Devil's Den!! Now, all we need is for the printers to get their colors straight . . . .RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 253 Sat Jul 29, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner] at 10:06 EDT > I've seen the (somewhat off-color) proofs of the 3-DoG maps... What does that mean? Did someone replace the place names with curses? Are there dirty jokes written in the CRT tables? Sounds like an interesting game. :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 254 Sat Jul 29, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 16:23 EDT Gives "Little Round Top" a whole new meaning, doesn't it? ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 255 Sun Jul 30, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:25 EDT Just waity'll you see BIG Round Top . . . and the game lends a qwhole new meaning to "Devil's Den" . . . . you folks have to get out more. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 256 Sun Jul 30, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 12:52 EDT So what's the latest timetable on 3DoG, anyway, i.e. how much longer must I salivate? -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 257 Sun Jul 30, 1995 J.PETRANOVI1 [Jim P.] at 19:00 EDT What are the GBoH plans again? What games and modules are coming out? I'ld like to see some modules (or games) on battles of the early Roman Empire to fill the gap between the rise and fall. The conquest and rebellion in Britian should supply at least one battle. There nust have been some civil war battles worth while. Also, is there any chance of an English Civil War game? Some of the battles sound quite balanced and many were fairly small. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 258 Mon Jul 31, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:27 EDT JC, 3-DoG ships out today (Monday) . . .even as we speak, copies are winging their way to those who pre-ordered. Shipments to distrbutors will be several days later. (Diadochoi also ships today . . . .) Visually, at least, 3-DoG is a feast . . . hope it plays as well as it looks. The next GBoH entry (after Diadochoi, the module for Alex), is SAMURAI, which is on the schedule for either Xmas or February, depending on when Gene wants to publish the Bellum card game . . . . modules should be appearing on Jugurtha (Caesar), Tercio (Lion), etc., altho lord knows when. We have decided to package Alesia with the three major battles of the Gallic Wars and publish it, along with all of Caesar's Gallic legions, as a self-contained game (not module), The Gallic Wars. Where that fits intop the publication schedule, along with Cataphract (Lat Roman) and Protector (EngCivWar) is anybody's guess . . . as for specific battles of the heyday of the Empire, its tough to find anything approaching "good". We do have some stuff on the 69 AD battles, (Cremona, I think), but we couldn't muster up enuf enthusiasm out of the gate . . .and please don't ask for Teuterburgerwald; it's a non-event gamingly. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 259 Mon Jul 31, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 14:06 EDT JC: For their sake, I hope it is shipping today. Mark Olson, who would like the game now at the published price rather than later for $5 :-) ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 260 Mon Jul 31, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 18:55 EDT I can't resist... Would those pre-pub orders include shipping of any playtest copies? I confess to being an "I want my Maypo" kinda guy on this one, fellas. Rest assured, Rich, this is the most successful of the GBACW incarnations yet - and with the coolest map. It's gonna be a winner. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 261 Mon Jul 31, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 20:27 EDT No Teutoburger Wald?!?!? After all the fun I had with the Decision Games' one in Four Battles of the Ancient World, I can't believe it. I mean, once when I was playing it, a Roman actually managed to run away a little bit before he caught a spear in the back. I was excited. That's the ticket. This is a battle with all the play balance and appeal of My Lai. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 262 Tue Aug 01, 1995 M.REED31 [Mike] at 01:04 EDT Richard, I was always interested in whether the GBoH series was close to the scale of AH's Siege of Jerusalem. After all, that would be a ready made map for a module, and a neat situation to boot. Not to say that the original game isn't good in its own right, but just thinking out loud here. (Since AH's for sale, who knows....) :-) Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 263 Tue Aug 01, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 04:35 EDT All pre-purchased 3-DoGs are on their way!! (Sorry, all you vultures, sitt- ting atop the delivery truck, drooling heavily onto the bills of lading, but gene got em all out . . . including the Diadochoi modules!!) They should be popping up by end of week . . . Playtester copies will be sent shortly (soory, Dave, but I'll make sure you get yours in the next wave). Mike, actually, at one time, we had configured the two-map Alesia with two other sieges on the reverse mapsides: Jerusalem and Tyre. Alesia, however, is now in the big Gaul package; we haven't abandoned Jeru and Tyre; we're waiting to see the reaction to siege warfare for this system, as they are tricky stuff to do (well). Jim W. . . . we're saving Tootburger for our Inept Losers Quad . . . inclu- des such great playing games as the aforementioned TBWald, Lake Trasimene, Carrhae . . .and I'm sure we can find one other instance of classic ineptitude, altho maybe Doc D beat us to the punch with his Harper's Ferry bit. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 264 Tue Aug 01, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 11:15 EDT Sorry to have been off-line for so long, guys. As you might imagine, I've been a tad pre-occupied. As Richard noted above, all pre-order copies of 3-Dog and Diadochoi shipped yesterday. Graphics-wise, if 3-Dog isn't the best we've done yet, I'm not sure what is. And I think we've finally worked the bugs out of this LIM system. And does it play! I'm not promising FAST, mind you (although the Little Round Top scenario is pretty quick, if you can figure out how to get the rebs through that godawful terrain), but I don't think fans of regimentallevel ACW stuff will be at all disappointed. I played Little Round Top again last night, and noticed one item that might trip you up in the rules. It's one of those things that's hidden away, but not explicityl stated. Here goes: Any unit that is in the ZOC of an enemy unit may use Withdrawal Movement, regardless of efficiency status, even if out-of-command. I'm pretty behind on my e-mail, but will get to it all within the next couple of days. I'm officially "on vacation" now (which is why I got to play 3-Dog for "fun" last night), but will be around to check on here until Friday, when I head to the mountains (clean air, the smell of pine, and plenty of trout in those streams!) for a week. Most of you should get your games Wednesday, though some of you (in CA) may get them today. So, if you have questions, I'll be here until Friday. After that, Richard can help you while I'm gone (hint: don't ask him Line of Sight questions! ). Enjoy! Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 265 Tue Aug 01, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 18:50 EDT Losers' Quad? I can't wait. Of course, there are other situations that could so simulated; Ticonderoga 1775 is a good candidate. I even have a name; "Knock Knock." Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 266 Tue Aug 01, 1995 S.CLARKE8 [Scott] at 19:48 EDT 3Dog sure looks good. Did you guys rush on the maps though? I noticed that it's up to the customer to trim the maps so they will overlay each other (I've never been great at doing a neat job at that personally). Other than that a nice job (the best Gettysburg map I've seen for sure), and looking forward to playing it. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 267 Tue Aug 01, 1995 A.LEWIS16 [Marmaduke] at 21:59 EDT Okay DiF players, I have a challenge. I just played the 1942 daylight campaign and scored 49 Hit Points with 4 Bombers at Medium Altitude on the Amsterdam factory complex. This was a two player game so I have a witness who will of course deny it totally. The challenge is can anyone beat that kind of bombing accuracy? FYI, I bombed the same complex at the end of the campaign and got only 31 Hit Points with 5 Bombers at LOW alti- tude. Andy ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 268 Tue Aug 01, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner] at 22:29 EDT Duke, You bringing it with you to ACon (I assume you're going). If so, let's get a game of the playtesters and rule cleaner uppers extraodinaire (if we find time). :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 269 Tue Aug 01, 1995 B.RIGGS1 [Entropy] at 23:13 EDT I got 3-DOGS today. Graphically beautiful! Gratz to GMT for what hasta be the best Gettysburg map yet! Counters are also _very_ nice. If only I had time to set it up and play. Ah well. (Some of the place names are almost impossible to read on the map though, like that big wooded hill...Little something er the other....) ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 270 Tue Aug 01, 1995 R.PHARES1 at 23:52 EDT Hey Gene! 3DoG arrived down here in San Diego today. looks good! Rich ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 271 Wed Aug 02, 1995 D.TTREASURE at 02:41 EDT GENE I've got a great game of LOST VICTORY going. The only question we've got is what are the chances LENINGRAD '41 will be published before the year is out? Really having fun with this. Thanks ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 272 Wed Aug 02, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:06 EDT It's not that there was any "haste" in running off 3-DoG - we wouldn't have sent it out were it not ready - but there were reports of Gene being at Fresno airport round midnight, Saturday, watching the skies. Think I'll brinbg my copy to Avaloncon . . . .RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 273 Wed Aug 02, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 09:56 EDT Glad you guys like the looks of 3-Dog. Anybody played the campaign yet? D.TTREASURE, I'm not sure yet whether LEningrad will be one of the fall releases. I'll know after the 15th, when we'll make the final decisions on what's coming out by the end of the year. Glad you're having fun with Lost Victory! Andy, Don't try to impress us with how often you blasted a defenseless, immovable target! What we want to know is how are you, mano a mano, in a swirling dogfight, just you and Chuck YEager in your P-51's, against waves after wave of the Luftwaffe's finest? And how many Me-262s have ya downed lately, huh? Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 274 Wed Aug 02, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 15:32 EDT It's here! My pre-pub 3DoG arrived today! First impressions: It's BIG [what else?] The map is nearly exquisite. My only initial negative reaction is that good light/good eyes may be necessary to distinguish rough woods from regular woods. Well and little known place names abound on the three maps, but are printed in unobtrusive type -- a great touch for historic/geographic "feel". The counters are colorful while the information they contain is clearly presented. Counter clippers may be concerned by the way that unit designations tend to crowd the upper right corners, but if you still MUST clip, there is a small amount available. Background colors are butternut for the Rebs, lightish blue for the Yanks, all color coded by a bar across the type to show organization and command. I'm not sure whether Rodes' Division and the Yankee XII Corps would appreciate the pink bars they received! Wait, what's this? Aaaaaaaaargh! They've designated the 3rd Arkansas of the Texas brigade as "3 AK" -- the Third ALASKA!! When will game designers and publishers learn that AK is Alaska, AR is Arkansas, AZ is Arizona? [Hint to Dave Powell -- get it right for Champion Hill!]. As a native of Arkansas, it will be depressing to push that Alaskan unit around. Would that GMT could follow The Gamers example and print a small gift countersheet of counter errata and optional units. I WANT A THIRD ARKANSAS! I have no familiarity with the LIM system, so it will take some delving in the rule book before I could comment fairly. The rule book is 36 pages with an index on the back cover -- examples are sprinkled throughout. The scenario book contains scenarios on Herr's Ridge, Day One, Little Round Top, Day Two, Pickett's Charge (with fair warning as to play balance) and finally The Battle of Gettysburg. For those who are concerned about the location of Richard Berg's distinguished autograph, it has been carefully located on the inside of the top cover of the game so as to not mar or deface game components. However, that location also makes it unsuitable for framing! There's a lot to chew on here, but the eating looks good! I'm sure more informed commentary will follow ... Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 275 Wed Aug 02, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 20:47 EDT Stu, Point received, and understood. I have no idea why I have such a recurring mental block about AR vs. AK, but am glad to see others similarly afflicted. Now I can form a support group... Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 276 Wed Aug 02, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 20:50 EDT Okay, okay, I confess that I didn't pre-order, but I'm ready to drop the full $55 or however much it is, once 3DoG hits the stores. So, my question is, when does that happen?? -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 277 Wed Aug 02, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 23:31 EDT Dave, Just had to tweak you a bit on that one. I just didn't want to see the state of Alaska in the background of that Arkansas unit in Champion Hill! I suppose the confusion of AR vs AK stems from the fact that Arkansas DOES have a "k" in it, while Arizona does not. So it seems that AR should go to Arizona, but it of course gets the AZ. If any of the good people of GMT join your support group, impress upon them that a great way to make amends, friends and loyal customers is to print that annual gift countersheet of errata and optional counters. Of course, they may not make any other errors ... Now if I can just find a month of Sundays to play this beast! Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 278 Thu Aug 03, 1995 J.PETRANOVI1 [Jim P.] at 02:08 EDT Bummer about no Roman-British battles likely, but I guess the Britons probably just had a bunch of wimpy chariots and stuff anyway. Tootoburger and Carhay never much appealed to me. If the sieges ever are worth playing, a hypothetical siege of Rome by hannibal or Alex or something could be fun. I have my doubts about most sieges--unless the attacker is under pressure to assault quickly, they are kind of dull. Barrage, barrage, if the defender is dumb enough to sortie, wipe him out, barrage, assualt at last, give and take, the defender breaks (or he doesn't), the attacker takes a hex, the game ends. Or maybe we have a mutual starvation track, whomever gets to zero first loses. Or,..,well,..., nothing. Toot starts looking good compared to this. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 279 Thu Aug 03, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:10 EDT Stu: GMT usually provides replacement counters for its games in issues of C3i. I'm sure any counter "errata" will be handled that way here. I, too, have the Powell Disease . . . or Razorbacks go North to Alaska. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 280 Thu Aug 03, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 08:58 EDT Stu: Geez, and Gene's from that little state which still has a place called Hope... Now I just have to figure out how to fit that outline of Alaska on that AK counter...that is gonna make those Delaware counters look like misshapen pin heads...same thing goes for Texas :) Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 281 Thu Aug 03, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 20:10 EDT RHB, Thanks for the tip on errata counters in issues of C3i. Problem is I've never seen a copy of that magazine. My local hobby store apparently doesn't carry it. Regardless, I'm happy to see that GMT pursues the same "customer first" policy as The Gamers! Do you expect that the 3rd Alaska counter in 3DoG will be a likely candidate for errata replacement? If so, how will I know when C3i will bear that fruit and how could I obtain a copy? Please don't say "Subscribe"; my wife (our principal bread winner) just got riffed. :-( Dean, Naw, Clinton took Hope with him to Washington where the Republicans are seeking to privatize it! If any bitterness is detected in that comment, please see the last line in the message to Richard. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 282 Thu Aug 03, 1995 P.PERLA at 20:22 EDT Well, i got my copy of 3DoG, as did Ed McGrady. I have seen a lot of compliments about the map. So, I have an unpleasant question. Is it just our copies that show mucho registraion problems with some of the color? Particularly the streams seem to misaligned with a fair amount of white showing through at the edges or fof to the sides. Also some of the trees printed as white, and on others the brown/red registration seems askew. I am hoping that we just got a couple of bad maps and that they are not all like that. Am I just being fussy again, or did we really get some rejects? Counters look great. Have not had a chance to look at the rules yet. Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 283 Thu Aug 03, 1995 J.COBB7 [bismarck] at 21:24 EDT I received my Gettysburg" Aug2. The map is stunning!! I also got the autograph of the designer: a Turkish nobleman, Rikuuult Bey. I have it in front of me. Jim Cobb ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 284 Thu Aug 03, 1995 S.CLARKE8 [Scott] at 21:50 EDT Already a question for Gettysburg - What is the definition of a "command" as it pertains to, for example, requiring all units of a command to use Tactical MOvement. Is this a division (as in any units with LIMs)? If so, isn't this problematic for a division like Heth's which arrives on the board piecemeal? (First stab at it underway, so probably more questions will pop up later, though things seem to be pretty clear so far overall). ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 285 Thu Aug 03, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 22:09 EDT A couple of more questions about 3DoG: 1) I also had some of P. Perla's map registration problems, ones that I would consider regrettable, but minor. They are not extensive on my maps. However, two issues arise -- a. Hexes A 6714, 6814, 6913 and 7014 (along Willoughby's Run) are filled with white spots. Were these meant to be trees (as in woods) or boulders (as in rough)? b. Similarly, hex C 3825 has boulders and white spots -- are these unfilled boulders or unfilled trees? Is this hex a rough woods hex? 2) Rule 5.2.3 says a unit must stop when entering an enemy ZOC. Rule 5.1.4 says that changing facing is considered movement, while 5.1.5 says that a unit can change facing one vertex in enemy ZOC. So, can a phasing unit enter an enemy ZOC, then change facing one vertex as part of the same movement phase? Thanks, Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 286 Thu Aug 03, 1995 J.PETRANOVI1 [Jim P.] at 23:37 EDT I just got 3DoG! It actually is beginning to seem weird to get a GMT game when it comes out. Any, as usually with GMT, seems great so far. I, for one, consider 2 letter state abbreviations an anacronism in the Civil War--probably Arkansas was neither AR nor AK in those days. Any of you anti-AK guys know otherwise? Just hoping for Diadochhi to show up soon! ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 287 Fri Aug 04, 1995 W.RAMSAY [Bill] at 05:09 EDT Gene, Got Gettysburg today. Physically, the nicest game you've done yet, except.. why the heck do I have to cut the map?????? Regards, Bill ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 288 Fri Aug 04, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:27 EDT The infamous "Whilloughby White Dots" are nothing . . . just an aberration. Apparently they did not show up on the original, but did as the maps ran. Luckily they're "off the beaten path", to be sure . . . .as for your maps, Peter, I have no idea. There's a lot of detail herein, and every once in a while there may be some misregistratrion. Not on my map, tho . . .so I'm not sure to what you refer. Do note, however, that what the "legend" refers to as "runs" the rules call brooks (the ones thru the hexes). Also, the design of the breastworks counters got changed after they left my perusal; they're supposed to reflect a two-side hex configuration (not 3). "Command" refers to the brigade, as each brigade goes separately. Stue, re changing facing. A unit that moves into an enemy ZOC must stop; no facing change at that time. If it starts in an enemy ZOC it may change facing, as per the ulre you mentioned, and it may change facing as Reaction - as the rules also state. I, too, do not like the modern 2-letter state abbrev's. But they're the ones that fit. Not sure why they didn't "cut" the maps (I cut mine as follows: westernmost 1/2 hex of Map B - the Gburg map - and top vertex of the C map; that does it es it fine. Probably has something to do with Gene being at the airport Sun- day nite waiting for the maps to arrive . . . . RHB Jim C: You must have gotten one of the readable signatures . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 289 Fri Aug 04, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 10:28 EDT I, too, was surprised that we have to cut the maps. AS any of you who have bought other of our multi-mappers know, we usually go for cutting the hex grid with about a half a hex left over for overlap. This one, though unintentional, is my fault. We used a new artist (who did a great job, IMO), and I never specifically told him to do the overlap the way we usually do. He was working with Mark Simonitch on final print and cut details, and I just ASSUMED. As usual, assuming got me just what my 7th grade teacher told me it would. Sorry, guys, for the trouble. Peter, Did Richard address all your Q's? The maps do have a few white spot "knockout" problems, and my maps have a tiny bit of white behind some of the brooks. But I haven't seen any problems that sound as major as the ones you're describing. Having done some major work on how to present this LIM system, I'm very interested in your feedback, especially from you guys who have played Loo. Do you have any trouble figuring out the sequencing of who does what, when? I'll check back on tonight (Friday) before I leave, then I'm out of touch for about ten days. Enjoy! Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 290 Fri Aug 04, 1995 J.COBB7 [bismarck] at 20:07 EDT Rich, Yeah, I got an early one, 101. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 291 Sat Aug 05, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 12:12 EDT Richard or other GMT types, Perhaps I am willfully disdaining the Design Note under rule 8.3 Line of Sight, but one aspect of the LOS rules makes no sense to me whatsoever. The third bullet point under rule 8.3.2 says, "Woods and infantry and cavalry units ... are treated as being one-half a level higher than the hex they are in." Were woods really that short at Gettysburg? I really can't see treating woods as a half-level LOS block equivalent to infantry/cavalry. At most, this suggest trees at Gettysburg were no taller than around 10'. It sets up some LOS situations that, well, defy my sense of reason. Suppose the notorious Third Alaska unit is firing at a Yankee unit situated one level higher than itself and two hexes away. The intervening hex is woods. As I read the LOS rules, LOS is NOT blocked in this situation, but if both units were at the same level of elevation, LOS would be blocked. A) Are these interpretations correct? B) Do they make sense? C) Do I just need to re-read the Design Note and shut up? Thanks in advance, Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 292 Sat Aug 05, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 15:22 EDT Gene, Do you have any extra SPQRII rulebooks, and how much would it cost? Looks like my copy has gone to gaming heaven, unless I can find out where I left it. Thanks, Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 293 Sat Aug 05, 1995 P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog] at 15:48 EDT 286-399 ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 294 Sat Aug 05, 1995 P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog] at 16:08 EDT Bill, I was really upset to pay $45 and realize I had to cut 3 maps to fit. This morning I laid them out to start and realized I need clear instructions as to which map goes on top of which. There are inconsistencies between the map edges so GMT is going to have to tell us which is the correct map edge. Gene, Don't ever pull this map border stuff again! Richard, Map C-what are the white dots in hex 3825? Trees or more rocks? What are the special hex sides on the bottom rows of map C? Can one move thru a staging area to use these map edge hexes? West Map-should the white boxes be buildings? West Map-what are the white dots in 6714 - 7014? Trees? East Map-hexes 1733-1933 have no slope but the same hexes on west map have slope hexsides. Which is correct? East map-5801 and 6001 have white backgrounds. Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 295 Sat Aug 05, 1995 S.CLARKE8 [Scott] at 17:07 EDT Here are some Gettysburg questions: 1. If a defender elects to continue shock, is he now considered the attacker, and would post-shock disorder apply to him as well? 2. Use of tactical movement: must ALL units in brigade use this or only MOVING units (i.e. does it preclude a rally or resupply action). 3. pg 7 sequence of play - RE units can only move or rally 4.3.3 - RE units can move, rally OR resupply Which is correct? 4. Change of facing for routing units is automatic (doesn't reduce their rout mp)? 5. THere is no way to resupply a supply wagon, right? (I seem to lose artillery ammo at an extraordinary rate, esp when firing several units combined). ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 296 Sat Aug 05, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 17:59 EDT Richard, You can relax. By number 303, that scrawl could have been anybody :-) Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 297 Sun Aug 06, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 14:35 EDT Another (probably stupid) question about the Shock Procedure in 3DoG: If A1, B1 and C1 are the designated shock attacks: A) Are the remaining steps for the shock procedure (2 through 6) conducted for A1, then repeated for B1 and C1 in turn; OR B) Is step 2 of the shock procedure applied to A1, B1 and C1, then step 3 applied to A1, B1 and C1, etc? I think I'm confused by the language that says in step 1, "Designate all targets of Shock ...", then in the paragraph following step 6, the language states "... each step must be completed -- for each unit -- before the next is undertaken." The phrase "for each unit" sort of implies option B above. Which is correct? Thanks, Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 298 Sun Aug 06, 1995 S.CLARKE8 [Scott] at 20:07 EDT Stu - Although not an official answer on your question, think you might be waiting awhile for it, so I think your answer is the "B" case. If you have ever played any of the GBoH series, it is the same concept. Basically he is trying to have all your melee's resolve simultaneously, so there is not an unintended blitzkrieg effect. Hence you do the first step for every combat, then the second step... and so on, so that theoretically by the time you are retreating and advancing it is more or less simultaneous. Meanwhile I am hard at work on generating more 3Dog questions myself. Found the answer to one of my previous ones in the errata (duh!). Also started the first day again after playing thru the #1 scenario. That one taught me that artillery is king! That one battery sure causes a lot of trouble for Heth's division (assuming no ammo problems). 1. If a unit is disordered in the midst of movement, is his MA for the phase that which he began with or his new disordered MA? 2. Fatigue - does "movement" include all types of involuntary movement (retreat, rout, advance after combat)? 3. Slope fire modifiers - does this ONLY apply for fire between adjacent hexes? Otherwise I'm not sure I understand the -1 down slope modifier. 4. Can a brigade leader rally a unit he is stacked with, move to another unit and then rally that one? Or was the "auto-rally" intended to only benefit one hex per turn? 5. Terrain chart says "Up One Level" (Gradual slope) is possible blocking terrain. Rules say gradual slope has no effect on LOS. Which iKYh-]j$PHH**BWV.Y7ce chart seems to be mistaking Army/Division phase for ME/RE in terms of when you can take certain actions. 7. Can artillery sections stacked together combine fire? Per rules seemed like no but was this intended? Otherwise gives an even bigger advantage to Union and for that matter doesn't make much sense (to me anyhow :) ). 8. 8.3.4 seems to allow non-reciprocal LOS - is this intended? The way I read this rule, infantry standing one or two hexes in fbRot of artillery can screen off that artillery - it can fire long-range say at enemy artillery positions, and the target cannot fire back(!). ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 299 Sun Aug 06, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 23:28 EDT Scott, Thanks for the quick, if unofficial response. I don't own any of the GBoH series of games, so I'm unfamiliar with GMT's [Gene's/RHB's] preferred treatment of shock combat. Any thoughts on my LOS question? Woods being equivalent to infantry and cavalry seems VERY strange to me -- were all the trees in Adams County stunted? The buildings of Gettysburg were taller than all the trees in the area? I'm glad to see someone else delving into the rulebook and charts. I have only been plowing through the former, so I haven't detected any of the anomalies that you mention. You have a sharp eye! I also have yet to set the game up -- a new baby and simultaneous job loss in the family plays h*ll with gaming. Uh, where did you find the errata? On your question #7, I see Rule 8.2.3, which sez that "Artillery may combine fire if they are within one hex of their Artillery Brigade Leader and all are firing with the same Range DRM." I suppose that this means sections stacked together may combine fire if those conditions in 8.2.3 hold true, as long as Rule 6.2.3 isn't violated. As to Question #4, Leader Auto-Rally, I would suppose that it is intended only to benefit one hex per turn. Otherwise, it seems that rolling to rally would rarely ever have to happen. However, Rule 9.7.6 suggests that perhaps he could rally one unit with which he is stacked before he begins movement, then move to and END his movement at another unit to auto-rally one more. I guess we'll have to wait for the official response. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 300 Mon Aug 07, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:53 EDT Ah hhhhh . . . the questions are rolling in . . . 1. To cut the maps (annoying, eh wot) . . trim the easternbmost half row off the B map, and the top (small) vertex from the N edge of the C map. That does it nicely. Gene explained the white dots. That corkscrew road at bottom of C is used for off-map movement, covered in the rules. I will get toquestions in one group, altho Scott C's reaction seemed correct. One piece of "errata" (more of a change of mind): an individual unit in a brigade may use Withdraw movement even if others in briugade do not. However, no unit in that brigade may use Tactical Movement - and viceversa. We played the first day of the battle at Avaloncon . . . quite a crowd reaction to the game. I sold over a dozen copies and didn't even have any to sell (sort of an on-spot re-order!). I'll try to answer q's by tomorrow . . . but will wait about a month for an official errata. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 301 Mon Aug 07, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:55 EDT Oh, yes, forgot the LOS bit . . . I think we can consider trees as being one full level higher than the hex they're in. (The "woods" at the time of the battle were rather thin, by the way, and you could probably see "thru" them, if there weren't too many . . . however, as to exactly how, how much, and where . . . who knows?!) RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 302 Mon Aug 07, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 20:15 EDT Richard, Ah, yes, life is so good for you now, what with a smoothly flowing stream of 3DoG questions meandering past your viewshed. Rather idyllic, yes? Although the LOS response regarding the proper height of trees seemed a bit off-handed, without the official imprimatur of Errata -- Thank You! Now the gentle folk of Gettysburg have suitable shade for their residences. Eagerly looking forward to your responses to the other questions, Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 303 Mon Aug 07, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner(0-5)] at 20:15 EDT Catching up since ACon - RE:the AL vs AK debate. As Jim and Richard note, the 2 letter state acronyms weren't in use during the ACW. And in fact, the US didn't even own Alaska (much less the confederacy) during the ACW. It was bought a couple years later. So it must be a period thing. You know, historical accuracy for as much as can fit on a chit. Boy is 3 Days pretty... :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 304 Mon Aug 07, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 22:33 EDT Grinner, Of course the two letter postal state designations weren't in use during the Civil War. But as long as the designers wish to squeeze state of origin for the units on the counters, they have little choice but to use the modern two letter system. As the only Arkansas regiment in the A.N.Va (and a fine regiment at that!), I just hate seeing those Arkansans being misattributed. I can't wait to see the next game in the system, but I don't believe they'll be able to match the 3DoG map in terms of depth of research! Rick Barber (and Missy at the tavern!) deserves a lot of credit for his (their) efforts. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 305 Mon Aug 07, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 23:11 EDT Gene, Richard, or anyone who'd care to respond: Not a complaint, but just wondering; any special reason for the choice of counter finish on 3DoG? This is the first game I've seen in a while that did NOT use the gloss finish. Also waiting for the answers to Stu's questions, Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 306 Tue Aug 08, 1995 P.KELLER3 [Pete] at 02:26 EDT Gene, I just purchased 8th Airforce. On the Schweinfurt Raids, how many B-17s are the Allied player given? Pete P.S. Please do not hold games up for conventions, I just acquired the game last weekend and people who preordered it have had it for over a month. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 307 Tue Aug 08, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:30 EDT It's the 3-Doggy Dog Answer Man . . . firstly, have to ask Rodger MacG why he chose the finish he did for the counters. Personally, I can't tell the difference. Then again, my eyes most assuredly aint what they used to be. First off. MAJOR RULES CHANGE. (Well, not so major, but I want you to pay attention.) Artillery goes Ammo Low/No ONLY on the '5' DR; NOT on the others. However, when using Rapid Fire, you DO use the other two DRs (it is no longer automatic for Rapid Fire). And even better for you rebs, 1 AAP will supply all guns in any one battery if stacked together. ( ath I did to arrive at original; found mistake - forgot to divide by two for the Ammo Low status . . . oops. Then again, none of the playtesters ever complained!!) Answering Scott Clarke's q's: Units disordered during movement do assume the new, lower disordered MA. Fatigue for movement covers ALL types of movement, including Rout! The slope modifiers apply regardless of where situated between target and firer. (Change of level affected aim.) A brigadier can Rally unit "a", move to unit 'b' (where he has now finished movement) and rally 'b', too. Rules are right concerning gradual slope having no effect on LOS. LIM refercne Chart is NOT making any mistakes in terms of when actions can be undertaken . . . not that I can see. Artillery sections can combine fire as per 8.2.3 if they are stacked. Re the non-reciprocal LOS question: Overiding premise is that if it can see you, you can see it. If the defender opts for Shock Continuation, auto post-shock disorder does apply to him. If some of units of brigade are using TacMove all must use it - except for those not wishing to use MP's (like in Resupply, etc . . .) And remember that one unit may use Witjhdrawal while others use other types of movement, except for TacMove. TacMove andWD are mutually exclusive within the brigade. I think the "errata" enclosed with game notes that, in the Sequence, RE units may always Resupply. Change of facing for Routed units does NOT cost any MP's . . . as they head for the hills. No way to resupply a supply wagon. What you sees is what you gets. And, as noted before for Stu B, each segment of the Shock sequence is completed for all units before the next. (Brigade by brigade, that is.) All of the above will be part of the Official Errata . . .still in "the making". Hope all of this helps . . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 308 Tue Aug 08, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 20:01 EDT Thanks, 3-Doggy Dog Answer Man! Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 309 Tue Aug 08, 1995 C.PERLEBERG [Chris P.] at 20:32 EDT Hey, here it Aug. 8th and I haven't recieved my 3Dog yet. What gives? Chris P. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 310 Tue Aug 08, 1995 P.PERLA at 20:42 EDT Gene, Gregg Adams also asked me to check on his 3DoG. He has not yet received his copy. Boith Ed McGrady and i got ours. Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 311 Tue Aug 08, 1995 S.CLARKE8 [Scott] at 20:54 EDT Mr Answer Man - The CSA extends its grateful thanks for your revised artillery ammo rules. They may actually have some useable artillery left now by the time they take postions on Seminary Ridge. On the subject of artillery, what happens to it when it is disordered a 2nd time from shock - does the standard rule apply (rout = elimination) or does the #6 case for artillery control in every instance. Noticed that the shock rule for 2nd disorder did not mention particular (inf and cav units) as did the fire 2nd disorder. [btw, "what to do on that 2nd disorder" would have made a very useful chart]. My point re LIM Ref Chart was down at the bottom where it says when you can do stuff: "Construction [Army Phase only]". I thought any ME unit could do this, and units can gain ME in the division activation phase as well. Hence if you replace "Army" with "ME", and "Division" with "RE" it would make sense. Either that or the rules are wrong at 4.3 with re to what you can do while ME. Also (for Gene) how about printing a complete OOB for both sides in some issue of C3i? Might come in handy in making sure you've got all the counters for a brigade together. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 312 Tue Aug 08, 1995 P.LAZZARO [Diomedes] at 23:53 EDT Richard, several more questions regarding Big AL have arisen. 1.) If a routing unit moves through another routed unit, is the moved through routed unit eliminated? 2.) Can Cav. recover from Cohesion Hits while in formation? 3.) 8.35 refers to a unit being attacked through a vertex. exactly when does this occur? When it does occur does this apply to position superiority? 4.) For recovery and change of formation purposes, if a unit is within range of a missile unit but that missile unit is unable to "fire", (i.e. is in charge formation, it's LOS is blocked due to friendly/enemy units, etc.) may the friendly unit be allowed it's action based on the enemy unit's inability to "fire"? (I realize that the enemy missile unit does not fire but must be capable of fire at the friendly unit). The rule just states that the friendly unit must be in _range_ of an enemy missile unit. 5.) Do units which are in column formation receive CH's if just given a move order to remove their column status? 6.) Can double sized units other than PH change facing? If so can they use the Front to Flank maneuver to do so? 7.) Is there any other way in which column double sized units can change facing? 8.) Is the onus of attack in the Issus scenario on the Macedonians or Persians. I realize Darius had cut off Alex's LOCs and would assume Alex must attack across the Pinarus. For game purposes it would appear Darius's troops could not handle the river crossing w/o heavy routing from the first shock attack due to prelim. CH's accruing from terrain, adverse attack modifiers, pre shock TQs, etc. Thanks again for a great game and the fine support, and by the way I have an old SPI copy of TSS set up in my game room for over two years, we are at the end of the first day. We play a few turns every month or so. Thank goodness my wife enjoys the game... Buford was decimated, 11 Corps is still running. I am stuck with the Union and was voted down for the optional Lee infiltration rule, in which Lee alone must make an in depth penetration into the Union lines to determine the disposition and line of attack he will take on days 2 and 3 and you know what happens when old Bobby Lee is captured... Thanks, Peter Lazzaro Erin Lazzaro Mark Van Loon James Stapleton ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 313 Wed Aug 09, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:35 EDT Anyone who has not received their pre-ordered 3DoG should immediately call 1- 800-523-6111 and ask for Jewel; she's a wonder at getting this stuff straight. They were all shipped UPS (2day), so they should be trackable. Scoot, you're correct about that Construction ref; should be ME. What happenewd is that the phases used to be called ME Phase and RE Phase, but got changed as we made adjustments to system. Etc etc. And, yet again, I goofed up the LOS rule (8.3.2 I think). Basic prenmise should be: When firing uphill, stuff closer to firer blocks. When firing downhill, stuff closer to target blocks. The parallel of this is that, If you can see it, it can see you. Also, when/if playing Little Round Top scenario, footnote [a] for the CSA should note that, for purpose of the game, Longstreet may use his Div Act Rating to give ME to Semmes and Kershaw (if they're w/i range) as if McLaws were present. (Scenario is a terrain nightmare!!) Oh yes, Scott's arty question. #6 rules, Scott. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 314 Wed Aug 09, 1995 D.VOHLERS at 19:45 EDT Diadochoi seems to have been lost in the 3 DoG shuffle. Has anybody ggotten their copy? Dick ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 315 Wed Aug 09, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 21:23 EDT I haven't seen the ad yet for this game but exactly how big is it? Is it company level? Regt level etc? Man to man? Anything like Terrible Swift Sword? ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 316 Thu Aug 10, 1995 A.LEWIS16 [Marmaduke] at 06:19 EDT Hey Richard, What's the command situation for that Union artillery unit that starts the first day of 3Dogs on the map? Andy ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 317 Thu Aug 10, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:56 EDT 1. I was under the impression that all pre-ordered Diadochoi were mailed last week. Call 1-800-523-6111 to check about yours. 2. Chiu-man: same scale as TSS, same size. 3. Andy, errata now notes that any infantry brigadier can command any one battery from his overall command; any cav brigadier, any one horse artillery. However, the guns get their ME from that brigadier. Speaking of Errata, by Friday, I will have the first Official Errata Sheet (as I have to mail it off to GMT). If you want me to e-mail it to you (before I put it in Library of Limbo), let me know . . . . Have been playing Little Round Top . . . those of you who have experienced Shock Conintuation know why it's a good thing to keep some units "in Reserve". The 51 Ga (Semmes' brigade) took out 1 regiment and 2 batteries in one Shock continuation, while routing a 2nd regiment. (Of course, it was virtually destroyed in the process, but not a bad day's work.) Oh yes, also got de Trobriand AND his Replacement (next turn; stuck his head up too fast). God that's horrendous ground around the Tops and Devil's Den!!! (Several pieces of errata have emerged from this; nothing tragic, tho.,) RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 318 Thu Aug 10, 1995 WAMASTER [Sawtooth] at 06:57 EDT > They were all shipped UPS (2day), so they should be trackable. Actually Richard, __ALL__ UPS packages are trackable. And now that GroundSaver stickers get stuck on all non-air packages (air pacakges get similar ones, but different color), even ground packages are tracked as easily as air packages. Just thought you all would like to know. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 319 Thu Aug 10, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 17:28 EDT Richard, Please put me on your 3DoG Errata EMail List. Thanks a lot Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 320 Thu Aug 10, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 18:00 EDT Richard, I would like a copy of the errata, if only to see what I am missing... BTW, it looks like a group might well be playing 3-DOG at our GAMERS retreat this fall in Homer. While I doubt being able to play, I'd really like to see this one get some table-time. Participate vicariously, so to speak. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 321 Thu Aug 10, 1995 T.OLSON4 at 19:04 EDT I received my Diodocchi with 3-Dog last week. Richard, Please put me on your 3-Dog errata list. Gene, My counters from C3I # 2(Ox carts; 54th Rifle Div.,etc.) ate its way thru the bottom of the envelope and got lost. I would like to replace them. Either the counters by themselves or Ill buy the mag agin if necessary. Thanks, Tim O. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 322 Thu Aug 10, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 19:13 EDT Richard, Speaking of Little Round Top: I am setting up the scenario, and I wonder - are any Artillery Commanders supposed to be set up at start? Nearly all of Cabell's (CSA) Artillery is present, but no mention of Cabell himself. Same thing happens on the Union side of the line. I assumed that the appropriate Arty commanders should be used. Am I right? On the subject of setups - I can't find any general scenario setup rules at all...have I just missed them, or are they hors de hurry-up release? I've been making lots of assumptions in the setups, and this makes me nervous :-) Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 323 Thu Aug 10, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 19:55 EDT Richard, et.al. Spent a day last week at Gettysburg. Got a guide in the morning, went through the museum, walked Pickett's Charge and back and then climbed Little Round Top from the bottom. (You're right, by the way about the Devil's Den and, on top of that, the Slaughter Pen: damned nasty ground.) Ended the day driving around to some of the monuments I'd seen in the morning and taking a few pictures. Did some touristo things in town and then it was off to the rest of my vacation. Actually seeing the place is amazing. I should have done that years ago. Upshot of this is, I'm GOT to get a copy of 3DoG! Is it in the stores yet, or are we hearing from the pre-pubs exclusively? Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 324 Thu Aug 10, 1995 C.PERLEBERG [Chris P.] at 20:45 EDT Yes, UPS packages are trackable -- and mine tracked to the wrong address last week. Much mourning in the village. However, Jewel promised me an overnight copy. Much rejoicing in the village. Great service, Gene! Doing a good job keeping customers happy! Keep this up and you'll be as good as the Gamers ;-). BTW, put me on the errata list, there, Mr. Berg! Chris P. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 325 Thu Aug 10, 1995 M.SZARKA [Mike] at 20:57 EDT Somebody should get GMT's 800 number put in the topic header. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 326 Thu Aug 10, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 21:04 EDT Richard, I would appreciate a copy of the 3DoG errata. Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 327 Thu Aug 10, 1995 J.DUNNAM1 [JRD] at 21:38 EDT RHB Ditto here on the 3DG errata Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 328 Thu Aug 10, 1995 O.SOGARD [SOGARD] at 23:29 EDT Errata, errata! We don't need no stinkin' errata" The ghost of Sam Peckinpah (sp) tell me I do need 3 DoG errata so add me to your list and I will send you a burrito curtesy of the Gamers. SOGARD ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 329 Thu Aug 10, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 23:56 EDT RHB, Please add my e-mail address to your "Must send!" errata list! Dan, If you can still appreciate Gettysburg _despite_ all the touristo trappings, you've got to get a copy of this game! There are no McDonald's, Wax Museums or carnival towers littering this map! Oh, God. I just realized that every sentence of this message, prior to this, ended in an exclamation mark. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 330 Fri Aug 11, 1995 G.YOUNG20 [George] at 00:26 EDT Rich: I'd like the errata as well. Thanks, George ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 331 Fri Aug 11, 1995 W.HUBBARD2 [Wade] at 01:10 EDT Richard, Please send me the errata too. Wade ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 332 Fri Aug 11, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 01:16 EDT Richard, please put me on the 3-DoG errata list as well. I just ordered a copy of the game. Also, I have a question for Vance or Gene (when he gets back) about Typhoon. Why aren't truck borne MSU's permitted to move in their side's mechanized movement phase? Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 333 Fri Aug 11, 1995 P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog] at 01:18 EDT Richard, Please put me on your 3DoG errata list. Thanks, PerrDoG ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 334 Fri Aug 11, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 02:14 EDT "We don' need no steenkin' badges" came from a John Huston movie, not a Sam Peckinpah movie... ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 335 Fri Aug 11, 1995 O.SOGARD [SOGARD] at 02:49 EDT Pitman - You are absolutely correct herr Pitmeister - how could I confuse "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" with "The Wild Bunch". It would seem I need to view them once again to refresh my memory. Thanks for the wake up call. SOGARD ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 336 Fri Aug 11, 1995 A.LEWIS16 [Marmaduke] at 06:20 EDT another one for the 3DoG errata. Thank you. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 337 Fri Aug 11, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:43 EDT The infamous "steenkin badges" line also appears, with an extra added 'letter" as a rather labored, but ultimately hilarious pun/joke in the Weird Al Yankowicz movie (the title of which I cannot remember), along with the coming attractions for Conan the Librarian and Ghandi II (He's Back, and this Time He's Mad!!). It's all downhill after that, tho . . . Mark, I'm not sure what kind of specific instructions one needs to set up. Just put em in the hexes. As for artillery leaders, they get placed with any battery in their battalion, if the battalion is medntioned as a whole (e.g., Cabell's battalion). If a single battery is listed, no commander. (That's part of the errata . . . you'll notice that arty commanders are often left out of set-ups; must be a form of tubular discrimination.) I will be posting the errata this weekend (probably Sat morning). Gene is still on vacation, but the incredible Jewel can take care of viretually anything, as those who have spoken with her can tell. 3DoGs will be shipping out to distributors this weekend . . . you can always order direct from GMT (1-800-523-6111). RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 338 Fri Aug 11, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 08:27 EDT Richard: Rather than rattle off a list of (in many cases nit-picky) set up questions, I'll wait for the errata. I trust it will handle most of my concerns. Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 339 Fri Aug 11, 1995 MIH.SUPPORT [Ulrich] at 14:51 EDT Richard: Please e-mail me the 3-DoG errata. Thanks in advance! Uli ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 340 Fri Aug 11, 1995 L.PRATT [LRP] at 18:41 EDT Richard, please send me the eratta as well. Thanks, Lind ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 341 Fri Aug 11, 1995 C.PERLEBERG [Chris P.] at 19:38 EDT Stepping up to testify... Yeah, Jewel did a great job, and I got my 3DoG overnight. Good service deserves to be noted. Hallelujah! Chris P. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 342 Fri Aug 11, 1995 DENTIST [Kirk Turner] at 20:00 EDT Richard, I'd take one of dem dare eerattas to! Kirk ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 343 Fri Aug 11, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 20:02 EDT Stu: The one thing I didn't do was climb the big tower in the middle of the battlefield. I thought, "No one who was here got that view. I think I can live without it." Best view of the day: the Little Round Top from the sniper's nest above the Slaughter Pen. Coulda picked off quite a few Yanks from there... I did climb the tower on top of Culp's Hill, though. Seemed like the right thing to do at the time. Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 344 Fri Aug 11, 1995 P.DANGEL [Paul] at 20:43 EDT *** WARNING! LONG 3DOG POST FOLLOWS *** Earlier this week I spoke to the 3DOG map artist, Rick Barber, and we discussed the 3DoG maps. I read to him some of the comments and questions concering the map that have appeared here and he agreed to send me list of clarifications and corrections that he's put together since he's had the opportunity to take a close look at the printed maps. He requested me to post them on GEnie. What follows are his complete notes. I apologize for the length but Rick's perspective is unique and worth reading. "TERRAIN NOTES * 3DOG MAPS First of all, I'd like to apologize to anyone who has had any trouble interpreting the terrain on these game maps. If you read the Cartographer's Notes you'll understand that this one was somewhat of a personal Holy Grail, and no one is sorrier than me that it turned out anything less than perfect. I certainly feel that there is no place on the maps where the correct terrain interpretation _cannot_ be achieved simply by a good close look. However, I know how much I dislike having to 'decide' how the terrain works on someone else's map, and it greatly bothers me that there might be cause for question here. If you already own the game at this early date, you're well aware of the rather unfortunate and absolute nature of the deadline in getting it out the door. That promise, made with the best intentions and kept through immense labor and personal sacrifice by one of the more talented groups of professionals that I've yet worked with, came up against one of the more basic truths in our business: Game Production, in terms of design, development and graphic production, is a _very_ complicated and time consuming process and an absolute magnet for Murphy's Law! I have nothing but sympathy for anyone involved with getting a series of magazines games out the door! Having said all that, let me try to clear up a few areas which I can see might be open to misinterpretation - * GENERAL INTERPRETATION - the contour level or terrain type of any given hex is _always_ that which occupies the center-point/majority of the hex's area. NO EXCEPTIONS! i.e., a tree or two sticking over the line does _not_ a forest make! * COLOR SCHEME - I've always wanted to do a game map that showed the terrain in a more natural manner than that usually used, and I think the scheme we decided on here (dark to light in Green - not the light to dark in Brown) works well in that regard - sort of like all those wonderful wall maps we spent our elementary school years staring at. The contrast may be slightly strong, both in terms of value and color, but you have to start somewhere. First and foremost, this has to be a functioning game map, not just an artistic approximation of an aerial photograph. Especially in a game which so heavily emphasizes ranged fire and LOS, the ability to easily determine any given hex's altitude is all important. * CONTOUR LEVEL GLITCHES - Hexes A6226, A6326 & A6729 are _indeed_ the _higher_ level terrain as indicated by the contour lines. Color plates not corrected in time. * SLOPES - The elevation change from level 5 to 6 on the _west_ side of Oak Hill Ridge (B2034 to B1133) should be minor slope. [see the piece of Oak Ridge on the east edge of Map A for this - PD] * INDIVIDUAL BUILDINGS/FARMS - In my own defense, the first time I was made aware that these were to have game effect whatsoever, beyond purely historical interest, was at Avaloncon (8/5/95) while going over the finished product with the Designer. In general these should still be pretty clear, but you may still have to make a couple of judgement calls. I'd say any hex containing at least 1 full building. * WATER - The solid blue outlining and stippling didn't turn out as dark as expected so here's a couple of clarifications: * Marsh Creek - is a Stream (minor) north of A3333, and a Creek (major) everywhere south of Pfoutz's Mill (3633) except of the _east_ side of the islands at Shriver's Farm (A4430). * Rock Creek - is a Stream (minor) for its entire length on the map, except for the stretch between B5608 and B6605 (See the game's Cartographer's Notes). * Fords - Anyplace an unbridged Pike, Road, or Trail crosses a Stream or Creek is a _ford_. A Road crossing a Run simply negates the already insignificant effect of such a small trickle of water. * THOSE INFAMOUS WHITE TREES! - along the trail over Spangler's Knob to the Z.Taney farm (Map B) and on Map A, at the Teller and Pfoutz farms (A2625/3027) the Pitzer farm (A6711/6712) and those 4 hexes along Willoughby's Run. The last named grove is now offically known as the 'Fennell Forest', after my friend Charles Fennell the tour guide. A week before the project went to the printer he provided me with a full copy of the 25 sheet 1868/69 Warren Survey map, which prompted a number of small changes. Seem I altered all the plates but one - the dropout for the background - with the result see here. * Hexes A6415 & C3825 - these trees _do_ exist, just missed being filled in. * Hexes B5801 & 6001 are level 3 terrain. * MAP TRIMMING - Trim off the half hexes on the _east_ edge of Map A, so it overlaps Map B. Map C should be trimmed off just south of the sawtooth edge on the northernmost (1000) hex row. You will also want to trim back the gray border on hexes C1001 and 1053 so as to have continuity when overlapping Maps A & B. * MINOR GLITCHES NOTICED IN OVERLAPPING - * the southwest and SE hexsides of B6917 should be minor slope. * hex B7009 should be woods, as shown on C1004. Actually, hex B7008/CC1003 should be _clear_ terrain. * hexside C1001/1002 should be _steep_ slope. If any one has any other questions or comments, especially the possibility of future maps bordering these game maps, please contact me by SASE at: Rick Barber 15 Franklin Drive McSherrystown, PA 17344-1132 Thanks Rick B." Rick and I work together on many projects so I'm in weekly (sometines daily) contact with him. If anyone has any notes for him here I'll be happy to pass them on to him. Paul D. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 345 Fri Aug 11, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 22:17 EDT Where do you guys want your burritos shipped? We use a quality re- mailing service down in Tasmania for this kind of thing, so that they age well before arrival. Paul, thanks for the update from Rick - I got a chance to chat with him at Origins, and was impressed with the dedication he brought to the mapwork. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 346 Fri Aug 11, 1995 MARK.HERMAN at 22:32 EDT Just catching up on the net here. For all you Diad... fans the one piece of erratta I have found so far is in Gabiene in the runaway rule you should add, NOT subtract, three to the die roll. Other than that every- thing else looks OK. I'm off to get Epaminondas ready for C3i. Mark ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 347 Fri Aug 11, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 23:07 EDT I wouldn't climb that stupid National Tower thing if my life depended on it. It shows up for miles, sticking up like a contemptuous middle finger in the face of everyone who loves the battlefield. The view might be good, but there's no way in this world or any other that I'd give the proprietors money for their desecration. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 348 Fri Aug 11, 1995 P.LEDAKOWICH at 23:23 EDT Richard, Please send me the eratta..... Paul ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 349 Sat Aug 12, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:52 EDT Well, mark, there is the guy in Gaza who sets up with the opoonents' cavalry . . . sort of Turncoat by fiat, as it were. (Check Tleloplamus, or whatever . . . tell him to gets his ass over to the right side of the field so the game can begin . . . .) And I have had some calls about the fact that the set-up at Gaza seems to have some unusual "holes" . . . I told them that was correct. (I assume.) I will e-mailing the 3DoG errata today - minus Rick's post. By the way, I cut my maps along the B map, not the A. I think that workeed better - but the, he did em, so listen to him. I have been informed that 3DoG starts mailing to distributors beginning of next week . . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 350 Sat Aug 12, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 10:25 EDT Jim, The stupid National Tower>> Absolutely! It is an insult. The shenanigans that the owner is now doing in the effort to get rid of that monstrosity (at a huge profit, of course) are shameful. Blaring annoying Muzak at high volumes, setting up a carnival at the spot, threatening to turn it into a giant Jack O' Lantern on Halloween, then a giant Christmas tree, etc. He's trying to be as obnoxious as possible in order to force the NPS to buy it from him -- at his inflated price. It is a total disgrace. Ever since Congress stopped that mall development at Manassas back in 1987 by paying an exorbitant amount for the property, there have been a number of individuals with extremely low foreheads but a sharp eye for cash who now look at threatening Civil War sites as a wonderful speculation opportunity. Right now, there is a group wanting to plop a Formula One racetrack right on top of a portion of the Brandy Station cavalry battlefield. It appears that they will get permission to do so from the Corps of Engineers. They've always said they would sell the property, but at nearly FIVE times what they paid for it just two years ago. If the courts won't stop the project and the Corps approves the wetlands destruction and the cash is not available for his terms - - VROOM, VROOM! How's that for "in your face"? BTW, it is NOT a local owner, NOT a local decision. One of the developers lives in Sacramento, CA, the other in Maryland. Neither gives a damn about Culpepper Co. Virginia other than the money they can pump out of it. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 351 Sat Aug 12, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 14:23 EDT Richard, O Font of 3DoG Errata, Thanks for the errata. BTW, if GMT and Rick Barber are looking for a reason/excuse/opportunity to publish the eastern cavalry battlefield map for 3DoG, how about packaging it with a future GBACW module on Brandy Station? A fascinating cut and thrust battle which included some infantry on the Union side, and potentially some infantry on the CSA side. Of course, I'm not sure whether two maps at this scale could cover the key Cunningham, St. James Church and Fleetwood Hill areas. Duffie's road trip through Stevensburg would have to be ignored entirely. Kind of the bookend cavalry battles of the Gettysburg campaign. What say you - - would the market support such a module? It would be great to have a Brandy Station commemorative game/map, especially if the Formula One racetrack and all the additional development that it would entail go through. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 352 Sat Aug 12, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 16:33 EDT Richard: Thanks the errata - most of my questions seem to be answered (so far). I know how you hate LOS issues, BUT: Your clarification of LOS (8.3.4? s/b 8.3.2) seems to actually contradict the rules. 8.3.2 states exactly the opposite of your clarification. Is the errata correct? (don't you hate questions like that?) Actually, I think the errata is correct and the rules have it backwards. There also exists the possibility that the clarification DOES clarify and its just that my medication needs adjustment :-) Mark Olson Having fun w/ 3DoG anyway ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 353 Sat Aug 12, 1995 P.PERLA at 20:10 EDT Richard, I kust downloaded 42 GMT messages, most of which appear to be requests for 3DoG errata. Pleas add me to the list. I pased on the latest Glory chit pulling version to Gregg Adams, who has my copy. He seemed anxious to test it. By the way, Gregg is a Civil War research fiend. he has confirmed with several sources that Alexander's Bridge was, indeed, so thoroughly damaged by Wilder's boys that the Rebs were unable to cross any body of troops using it. Another first for a Berg game! Looking forward to the final rules before publication. Will be happy to give them a thorough going over (unlike what I gave my game!) Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 354 Sat Aug 12, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 20:19 EDT Richard, I got the Gettysburg errata; thanks! But there is a problem. It's in a Mac format that my PC won't recognize; it won't even recognize the file's name. Is there an ASCII version with a PC- type filename (such as 3-DOG.ERR instead of 3DOG ERR)? Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 355 Sat Aug 12, 1995 J.KINCAID1 [John] at 22:23 EDT ======= To: J.WERBANETH ======= > Richard, I got the Gettysburg errata; thanks! > But there is a problem. It's in a Mac format that my PC won't > recognize; it won't even recognize the file's name. Is there an ASCII > version with a PC- type filename (such as 3-DOG.ERR instead of 3DOG > ERR)? Jim rename the file 3dog.txt and your ascii readers will handle it. The para. formating will be all messed up but that is not hard to fix. John ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 356 Sat Aug 12, 1995 WOMBAT [Ghoti] at 22:32 EDT Sawtooth: > ... __ALL__ UPS packages are trackable. Except when they decide to lose the package entirely. :( I'm still waiting for them to find the package they SAID they were holding for me a week-and-a-half ago! RHB: > The infamous "steenkin badges" line also appears.... ...in "Blazing Saddles". :) ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 357 Sun Aug 13, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:39 EDT Stu . . . what you describe as a GBACW module actually exists, by the way, as Rebel Sabers. I should point out that, while it doesn't exactly match perfectly, the Old Dutch Road map from RebSab will overlay (sort of) with the new 3DoG map, as they are both the same (exact) scale. Mark: Errata on LOS is correct; yes, it does contradict the rules; yes, I never get this stuff straight. Jim, if John hasn't straightened out your download problem, lemme know. I keep forgetting that the PC's, in their infiniate, but rather linear, wisdom, don't read "blanks" in titles. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 358 Sun Aug 13, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 11:04 EDT RHB, Thanks. Even as I was typing my suggestion, something was tugging at the back of my mind that such a GBACW beast already existed. Even so, I thought it might be nice to update it to the most recent evolutionary standard of GBACW in terms of graphics and rules, i.e. 3-DoG. In addition, I wouldn't know how to begin to locate a copy of Rebel Sabres (and given the prices I've seen for out of print GBACW games, I couldn't imagine how to pay for it!). One more LOS question: Unit A fires at Unit B, which is one elevation level higher than Unit A and located two hexes away. The intervening hex is woods or a town hex. As I read the "halfway" standard in 8.3.4. LOS is _Not_ blocked. Correct? It seems a little funny to me, being able to see over an adjacent clump of trees, but I can certainly learn to live with it if that is the case. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 359 Sun Aug 13, 1995 D.MANN8 [Doug Mann] at 12:33 EDT GMT, Add my congrats on the production values in 3DoG. I agree that I'd like to see the place names more readable, but I'm glad to see such attention to getting the map done right. Still cutting out counters but looking forward to pushing them around this weekend. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 360 Sun Aug 13, 1995 D.MANN8 [Doug Mann] at 13:05 EDT RHB, If it's not too late, can I get the 3DoG errata? Thanks ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 361 Sun Aug 13, 1995 G.ANDERSON13 at 15:30 EDT RHB, I would also appreciate the highly popular 3DoG errata. Thanks. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 362 Sun Aug 13, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 16:12 EDT to Jim Werbaneth: MSUs do not move during the motor movement phase because they do not have the doctrine. The design intends that these be rear area. Playtesting here showed that they are moving fast enough anyway. Let us know how you think the game plays. - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 363 Sun Aug 13, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 21:09 EDT John and Richard, one of the problems is that I can't rename it. I tried that early one. Unfortunately, with both DOS and Windows, the only operation that can be done with this type of file is deletion. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 364 Sun Aug 13, 1995 P.PERLA at 21:15 EDT Jim, I'll only say what I say to all the poor PC users: get a Mac. Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 365 Sun Aug 13, 1995 J.KINCAID1 [John] at 23:48 EDT ======= To: J.WERBANETH ======= > John and Richard, one of the problems is that I can't rename it. I > tried that early one. Unfortunately, with both DOS and Windows, the > only operation that can be done with this type of file is deletion. Jim I will send you a copy of my file. I think it should be ok for you. Advise if I am wrong. John ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 366 Mon Aug 14, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:04 EDT Stu: that's one of those "halfway' anomalies. In the situation you describe I would say LOS IS blocked, as the blocking terrain is directly adjacent to the firing unit, a sort of "In Your Face" rule . . . . Played Diadochoi this weekend - along with a couple of other games - and after talking with Markie Mark we may have some rather interesting new and (probably) experimental rules (generic to series) . . . plus the usual errata. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 367 Mon Aug 14, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 18:22 EDT Vance, I have another Typhoon question. When a special event enables the Soviets to release one of their garrisons, do they release the entire group of units, i.e. the fortified line near Bryansk, or just one stack? We're playing that it's the entire group of units, but we'd just like to make sure. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 368 Mon Aug 14, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 20:22 EDT Jim, It's just one stack. Releaseing the whole line would be way too much besides being a little vague. Keep us posted on how it is playing. - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 369 Mon Aug 14, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 21:13 EDT Rich- Is the 3DoG errata downloadable from the libraries? Don't have the game yet (still not in stores), but I can at LEAST read the errata as a tasty appetizer. -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 370 Mon Aug 14, 1995 T.TRANT at 21:42 EDT 8th Air Force questions: 1) Are the number of "full throttle" chits per jet/rocket limited to the aircraft's "Speed" number? 2) What effect does altitude have on the Me-163? Going by strictly by the rules, it would have a horrible time at high altitude (since it's not "turbocharged") and would seem to get the standard low altitude horsepower improvement. Somewhere I heard the suggestion that it ignore altitude effects (both high & low) completely, which makes much more sense. Tim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 371 Mon Aug 14, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 22:28 EDT RHB, I agree with your read on the LOS "halfway" issue. Should we resolve this anomaly by stating that adjacent full level obstacles _always_ block LOS? Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 372 Tue Aug 15, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:00 EDT As you stated, adjacnt obstacles block .. . . JC, errata is not yet in the library. Soon, soon . . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 373 Wed Aug 16, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:07 EDT Trust none of you will have any3-DoG questions until next week, as I'm off on a business trip (Colorado Springs) and will return late Sunday nite. Enjoy. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 374 Wed Aug 16, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 19:27 EDT Vance, We've already played two games of one of the smaller scenarios, of the German drive on Orel, that ended up going identically. Here's how they went. I played the Soviets, and two guys played the Germans. I won. It wasn't because I played all that great, as we were doing this to learn the game, but because the German players had a couple of operational misapprehensions. Well, more than a couple. First, and most important, they used the panzers to execute a short hook against the Soviet fortified forward line, instead of driving straight for Orel, or maybe Kursk. They thought that the Soviet army was the center of gravity, and basically gave me a lot of time to build up Orel's defenses. Second, they misused their airpower. Even at maximum odds, they piled on Luftwaffe support, in a clinic of overkill. At the same time, they did virtually nothing that impeded my rail traffic. Instead of interdicting Orel, Kursk and other vital rail junctions consistently, they used interdiction infrequently, and only against the most forward units. It was so ineffectual that at no time was it so much as an inconvenience. Strangely, the Germans saw their INFANTRY as the war-winning. Yes, it's important, but they denigrated the chances for an early breakthrough with the panzers, figuring that the infantry in the north had to first get through the Soviet defenses, fight their way to Orel, and invest the city before they could take it. It was a case of Montgomery tidiness winning out over Rommel daring, at a time when approaching mud meant that there was no time. We're going to play the campaign game next. It was supposed to start tomorrow, but that's been delayed because the game is set up in a badly ventilated room with no air conditioning, and a wall that faces the setting sun. We're waiting for the heat wave to end. However, since the same guys are playing the Germans and my Soviet partner is an extremely experienced defensive specialist, I think we'll be drinking vodka with Comrade Stalin in the end. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 375 Wed Aug 16, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 20:52 EDT Rich- I know you won't see this til next week, but thanks for the errata. Hope to have the game in my sweaty hands this weekend (and given the weather forecast, I mean SWEATY . . .) -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 76 Thu Aug 17, 1995 DIPLOMACY-1 at 21:36 EDT Topic Closed for Cleaning Peter Szymonik Games RT Sysop ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 77 Sat Aug 19, 1995 J.REED9 [jhreed] at 20:11 EDT Richard, Please e-mail me a copy of the erratta too, if you don't mind. Getting stuff into and out of the library is an undertaking. Some questions of my own that I have not seen covered (we started the grand "campaign" game about a week ago): 1). Does Heth's division enter using strategic move? 2). Maybe we are getting old but the difference between woods and woods/rough is not easy to read in the legend. We assumed woods/rough was the woods with the grey rocks in it. Correct? 3). One of the Union cav. brigades tried initiative and failed, leading to confusion. We then rolled a 0 causing the brigade to "Advance and Shock Attack". The exception beneath 10.2.3 states that dismounted cavalry may not do this. We settled on the confusion roll turning into a "Stand" instead. Is this right? 4). We couldn't find any arrival information for the Union Artillery Corps Brigade leaders (Wainwright - I Corps,, Osborne - XI Corps). We foind the Pegram arrival for the Confederates, though. Thanks in advance -- John Reed. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 78 Sun Aug 20, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 01:17 EDT Jim - Good choice of scenario but sad bunch of opponents! I hope this is not a commentary on today's quality of play. Try switching sides. Wouldn't they really be happier playing Soviets? - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 79 Sun Aug 20, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 15:06 EDT Vance, I agree with you about the scenario and the opponents. We purposedly set up the game this way because they most frequently get to play the defense. We thought it would be a good change of pace. Oh well. I hope Uncle Joe keeps his vodka on ice. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 80 Sun Aug 20, 1995 R.RUBIN8 [Rich Rubin] at 19:24 EDT I've just bought Typhoon and I've got a printing problem on Map P. The entire background is covered with a faint red blotchy pattern which looks like an allergic skin reaction to medication. All the woods, hills and rivers, as well as fortified lines, are off color. I'd like to have this replaced. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 81 Sun Aug 20, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 21:03 EDT Vance, Typhoon! question: Does a friendly ZOC negate an enemy ZOC for retreat? 6.1.5 and 8.6.2.a seem to conflict. Thanks, Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 82 Sun Aug 20, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 21:21 EDT Gene, Did you receive my email conerning the Waterloo rules update? Haven't heard from you in a while. Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 83 Sun Aug 20, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 21:21 EDT Vance, Typhoon question: I set my game up, (using the campaign set-up, of course!) and found that neither of the armored trains sets up on a RR track. In fact, one is on an island. I suspect this is a typo? Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 84 Sun Aug 20, 1995 J.WEBSTER6 [J.D.Webster] at 22:06 EDT Obviously dave is not aware of the experimental soviet amphibous trains which used webbed wheels without need for tracks. Two were built and both appear in the game.....(naaawww). ;). ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 85 Mon Aug 21, 1995 GENERAL-3W [JY0] at 05:33 EDT Rich Rubin, I had a problem with the proofs for map P. We are in the process of redoing that map! You'll get your replacements as soon as we get this fixed! Joe Y ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 86 Mon Aug 21, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:11 EDT Have returned from Colorado, and Land of the Game Store (Colorodo Springs). In answer to John R's Q's: for 3-DoG: 1. Yes. 2. Yes. 3. See 4.7.2. 4. Enter with Corps commander (which I think is what the errata says . . . .) RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 87 Mon Aug 21, 1995 W.GRAVES2 [Wig] at 23:41 EDT Vance, TYPHOON! question: does the limits of 18.4.7 apply in scenario #5? If so, does it also apply to the fortifications on the other maps? Game really looks good. Vance/Dave, Not to start an argument but did the Konotop/Orel rail line exist or not? This is a major supply route in Guderian's Blitz but is not on the TYPHOON! map. Wig ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 88 Tue Aug 22, 1995 GENERAL-3W [JY0] at 06:53 EDT Wig, I can speak for both the Typhoon Map and the other game. On all of the map sources we had for this area(German Staff maps at 1:500,000 and Soviet maps done in 1938-39, no such railine existed. The German maps are generally dated between 1941 and1943. So I don't think it was something that the krauts added themselves, either. Joe Y ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 89 Tue Aug 22, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 17:36 EDT Wig, You'd have to ask Dean about the RR. I don't know, myself. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 90 Tue Aug 22, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 23:16 EDT Dave, The correct set-up hexes for the Soviet armored RR units are map P-2512 for the 30+76 unit and map N-2603 for the 53+73 unit. The correct hex set-up is listed on the Soviet set-up cards for scenarios 4 and 5. Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 91 Wed Aug 23, 1995 AVALON.HILL at 08:44 EDT Dave and Wig, I checked my sources too (a 1939 Soviet map and a 1943 German map) and there was no railroad from Konotop to Orel in 1941. There is a railroad now days, but it must have been built long after the war. The only railroads going into Orel from the west or south are the ones from Bryansk and Kursk. Your mistake is understandable. When doing the maps for Stalingrad and Ukraine '43 it was very difficult to determine which rail lines existed, which existed but were never repaired, and which were newly built for the campaign. I would love to read an article some day describing the repair of railroads on the east front and itemizing all the railroads that were built during the war. Mark S. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 92 Wed Aug 23, 1995 MIH.SUPPORT [Ulrich] at 12:18 EDT Joe Y.: Nice "krauts" remark you made...reminds me of a certain guy from GR/D at Games Spectacular I in Eindhoven...Richard do you remember? ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 93 Wed Aug 23, 1995 R.EICHENLAUB [Dick] at 20:13 EDT I recently got your Typhoon! game and have some questions (some of these are clarifications...I think I know the answer but just need confirmation): 1. [6.1.7] There are several references to railroads having to be "available for friendly railroad movement". Is this simply for cases where scenario rules might disallow a railroad's use? 2. [6.2.3] Is on-map supply (i.e. using a supply point to provide general supply to units) range normal (based on weather) or always five? 3. [6.3.5e with 10.2.4] Can an OOS artillery support an attack-supplied attack? 4. [6.1.5] The last clause is a little confusing. It implies a unit can retreat through a mutually controlled hex. Was this clause intended to refer to only the first part of the rule (friendly occupied)? 5. [7.2.3] Can units whose movement is halved during the Movement Phase (i.e. Soviet Motorized) still do infiltration? 6. [7.6.1] Is it true that a unit cannot initiate railroad movement at all if in an air interdiction zone? Shouldn't this be mentioned in 1.4.31? 7. [8.1.2] Refers to 8.3.6b (which notes Clear Mud and Frost only). Is a unit obligated to attack across major rivers during Snow or Arctic? 8. [8.0] When declaring attacks, does the player announce all details (participating units, strengths and which units are being attacked) or simply the hex being attacked (in which case the actual allocation of strength is not fixed until the actual Combat Resolution)? 8. [8.3.5] I assume that advance after combat is not allowed into prohibited terrain even though it is not specifically noted in 8.9. 9. [12.3.1] What is the sequence for an asterisked step loss number? First affects any engineer unit involved. Then any armor that contributed to Combined Arms? Or can the remaining losses be distributed at will after the engineer is affected? 10. [12.1] Can a unit benefit from an enemy strongpoint? 11. [8.7] Is it true that when an Attacker marks his units with an Additional Retreat marker, he can subtract 1 from his losses and still Advance into the hex (if vacated)? Or does the reduction of losses only apply if a R result is included? I've played the game a couple times and have bumped into these questions. I may have more later. Thanks for any help you can provide. Thanks, -Dick- ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 94 Wed Aug 23, 1995 D.WHITAKER3 [Dick] at 21:28 EDT Dear Mr. Berg, Please e-mail the errata to 3Dog to me. Thanks in advance. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 95 Wed Aug 23, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 22:10 EDT Mark, I have a map (two, actually, one naming all stations) of the rail net in the Ukraine. It was prepared by the German staff section for AGS, I think, and is dated 1941. It shows double-track, single- track, low capacity, and under construction RRs. Given work I'm doing for Army Group South, I've cross- checked it with other sources, and it has been completely reliable so far, so I think it was done in late '41, after german occupation. It is not a pre- invasion study, which is nice. What's interesting is that it does show a RR running NE out of Konotop in the direction of Orel. It does not, however, show Orel itself, being outside the bounds of the Ukraine. My source for this one, however, is working on getting similar maps for the rest of the USSR, so hopefully we will have them in time for the re-do of GB. Actually, since Guderian's Blitz was done, we have discovered much better source material, so that it's quite possible that a post-war track slipped in. I'd like see such an article too, Mark. Not sure where it'd appear, however. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 96 Thu Aug 24, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 01:19 EDT Looks like I am behind on answering questions. 1. Dave's armored trains - They won't need water wings, Ken Thurston has it right, see msg 90. 2. Map rash - and freckles too! Joe says that map will be reprinted. I tyrust he will fix the woods there too. 3. Retreat thru eZOC - friendly ZOC does not negate but a friendly combat unit in the hex in question would negate ZOC (eZOC) 4. Railroads in 1941 - I studied the German staff maps Joe refers to and cross- referenced them with as many other maps as I could find. As Mark says, it was all very difficult to decipher. Errors would not surprise me. I welcome debate and correction. I doubt the Konotop- Orel line existed in, specifically, October of 1941. 5 Rule 18.4.7 applies also in Scenario #5. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 97 Thu Aug 24, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 01:29 EDT Let me respond to Dick Eichenlaub's questions: 1. (6.1.7) - yes, and for the Axis it must be converted. 2. (6.2.3) - supply point range is based on weather: seven in Dry or Frost, five in Mud, Snow or Arctic. 3. (6.3.5e with 10.2.4) - yes; general supply has nothing to do with attack syupply. 4. (6.1.5) - clause refers only to the first part of te rule. 5. (7.2.3) - Canxxx; Yes; the only Soviet units capable of this are the motorcycle regiments and the "Des-NKVD" unit. 6. (7.6.1) - not true, at least in an older version of the rules, I will want to think about this one for a while. 7. (8.1.2) - I think the rules reference s/b 8.3.6b - Yes; obligated to attack across major river during Snow or Arctic weather. 8. (8.3.5) - correct assumption. 9. (12.3.1) - Sequence is a.affects any engineer unit involved, b. affects any armor that contrib. in Combined Arms, c. apply to units not attack supplied. 10. (12.1) - No benefit from enemy strongpoint. 11. (8.7) - Attacker reduction of loss only if "R" resiult occurs for attacker. Yes, keep those questions coming. - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 98 Thu Aug 24, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 05:42 EDT Got an official errata yet, Vance? If so, e-mail me a copy when you get a chance, if only to help my reviewer sense the greatest lurking beneath the surface (etc etc etc). Has 3DoG shown up in local shops yet? A few sightings would help us keep tabs on what arrives when.Thanx. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 99 Thu Aug 24, 1995 AVALON.HILL at 08:43 EDT Dave, The rail line heading northeast out of Konotop goes to Bryansk. Sounds like you've got an excellent map source for Army Group South, would love to see it sometime. When is your game (Army Group South) due out? Mark S. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 100 Thu Aug 24, 1995 M.SEARLE1 [Squirrel] at 11:24 EDT >Has 3DoG shown up in local shops yet? A few sightings would help us >keep tabs on what arrives when.Thanx. Richard, I was in my favorite game store (Twilight Book & Games) in Syracuse, NY on this Tues (Aug 22) and they didn't have 3Dog yet. They get their big game shipments (thats big as in quanitity of games, not as in individually large games, which 3Dog is, but thats neither here nor there) on Thursdays, so they may yet have it this week. As for where I live/work, in the Saratoga/Albany, NY, there's no such thing as a game store around here, so it won't get to this area until I bring my copy home from Twilight . . . Mark Searle GamesUSA ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 101 Thu Aug 24, 1995 D.VOHLERS at 19:31 EDT Has there been a Billingsley siting recently? I've got some C:S '73 questions to post, and I'd like to get my playtest copy of 3DoG, but Gene still seems AWOL. Does anyone (Richard, Vance?) have an idea when he'll be back from his vacation? Thanks, Dick ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 102 Thu Aug 24, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 20:02 EDT Rich - I sent a copy of errata to reviewer two weeks ago. As for Gene, I have not heard from him in about a month. As I understand he was in bad need of vacation. Let's hope the wooly bears don't get him! - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 103 Thu Aug 24, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 21:03 EDT Richard: I stopped by Prosek's Military Hobby Shop in Winfield, IL this past weekend looking for 3DoG, but it hadn't arrived yet. Anxiously waiting, Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 104 Thu Aug 24, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 22:21 EDT Rich, Yet another playtester, here, longing for a sight of the fabled 3- doggy-DOG. Mark, Bryansk is a definite possibility, except that the map shows a fork in the line. Alas, it's too vague. As for AGS, yes, I think the RR map has been a big help. I wish I had as good a map for placenames, which are all over the place and in three different languages, to boot. I'd like to get all the towns and cities named as they were by the owning country in 1941. Given the German prepensity to insist on a Germanic name for a city no matter when it was last German, this might be a real task... Oh well, that's the joy of cartography! Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 105 Fri Aug 25, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:40 EDT Gene IS on vacation - in Memphis (probably contracting for a "Where's Elvis? game) . . . have no idea when he returns. Playtesters for 3DoG should contact Jewel at 1-800-523-6111 and ask if those copies have been sent. My understanding is that 3DoGs were shipped middle of last week, so, with a 7-10 day delay between that and store appearance, they should be popping up even as we speak. In the measntime, I head for a week out at Montauk, altho I should be around (here), as I carry ye olde laptop along . . .Not that there's much doing on-line these days anyway . . . .RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 106 Sat Aug 26, 1995 P.KELLER3 [Pete] at 01:47 EDT ALERT....ALERT 3 DoG has been sighted in WARDOGS in Jax Fla. Pete ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 107 Sat Aug 26, 1995 W.ARNSDORF [MARTY] at 10:42 EDT I too am waiting patiently for my playtest copy of 3-DoG. Since our games are "free", we go to the back of the line. One would think, tho, that once the pre-orders are shipped, they could slip a game to us. I can understand a lack of components can delay this, but I don't think that is the case in 3- DoG. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 108 Sun Aug 27, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 17:37 EDT 3DoG showed up in Madison, WI, late last week. Will pick it up Monday, as my wife won't be home and won't be overly inquisitive about me bringing home a $59 game (not that I'll be paying full price for it, but you get the point). - JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 109 Sun Aug 27, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner(0-5)] at 20:45 EDT Someone had asked a couple questions about 8th AF awhile ago. I don't think they were answered. Go ahead and post 'em again and I'll take a shot (only semi-official) if you want. :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 110 Mon Aug 28, 1995 T.TRANT at 22:33 EDT 8th Air Force questions again, for Grinner: 1) is the "Speed" rating only the starting number of "Full Thrust" chits for a jet/rocket, or is it the maximum too (as the Maneuvering value is for number of Action Cards in the element's hand)? They'll never come down from Very High altitude until they've got a ton of those chits if it's not the maximum. (This really is only an issue for dogfight games, rather than a campaign.) 2) how is an Me-163 affected by altitude? Going strictly by the rules, since it hasn't got a "turbocharger" its horsepower deteriorates badly up high, and it also improves at Low & Very Low even though a rocket shouldn't care about the denser air there. I remember a mention somewhere that it should just ignore altitude effects completely, which sounds good to me, so I'm looking for confirmation. Thanks, Tim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 111 Mon Aug 28, 1995 R.TAYLOR77 [Roger] at 23:33 EDT 3-DOG spotted in Falls Church, VA last Sat -- and bought! (And I swore I'd never buy another monster game.) So Richard, could you include me in round 2 (3?) of the errata mailing? Thanks. -- Roger ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 112 Tue Aug 29, 1995 D.VOHLERS at 21:04 EDT Good news for 3DoG playtesters: I called the 800 number tonight and Roger G. told me that the 3DoG playtest copies were shipped by UPS today. Dick ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 113 Wed Aug 30, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner(0-5)] at 23:19 EDT Tim, Well, I've looked over you questions. My response is: Good questions. Going over the rules and (somewhat messed up) examples, what I remember isn't really what's written. The jet/rocket rules were modified quite a bit during the playtesting. So it could well be that the final results are as you state. I.e. the speed and thrust draws are not tied together and rocket burn is modified by altitude. But what I remember last is 1) Speed is a maximum, like performance and thrust is the maximum draw, like horsepower. And the comet had special rules including a limit on the number of turns that it could stay airborne (3, last I remember). Again these things were changed a bunch, so I can't give the difinitive rules. I guess we'll need to wait for Gene. Gene, if you read this, you probably know this by now, but the jet example is not real clear. Somewhere along the line the damage done to the P51 wingman was transfered to the Me262 wingman instead. It was a good way to fit the example to the amount of page space left ;). :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 114 Thu Aug 31, 1995 S.CLARKE8 [Scott] at 22:25 EDT Richard - Actually how about posting 3dog errata to the libary (if you haven't already). ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 115 Fri Sep 01, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:37 EDT I will be glad to put the 3DoG Errata in the Library . . . except that each time I t seems to go into Limboland. Oh well . . . I'll wait until after the big weekend, when several people have told me they'll be playing and calling with questions . . . . so, next week sometime. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 116 Sat Sep 02, 1995 D.VOHLERS at 08:55 EDT Any sign of Gene yet? He's been off-line for a month, and I've been wanting to ask some C:S '73 questions. Does anyone have an idea as to when he might return? Dick ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 117 Sat Sep 02, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 09:19 EDT Some additional 3DoG errata: Range Chart. The "B" Breechloaders should have a Max Range of '4', a -1 at 3 hexes and a -2 at 4 hexes. 9.6. Units may advance after Fire only if they were adjacent to the target. 10.31. Berdan's Sharpshooters have a Max Range of '6', with a -2 in the 5-7 column. (They were trained to fire - and their sites set - at c.800 yards). (Thanx to the fellow who reminded me . . . .) Gene is, if not battling his umpteenth respiratory infection, at the LA One assumes that if his lungs are still working, he'll be available, once (yet) again Tuesday or so. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 118 Sat Sep 02, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 11:42 EDT ATTENTION: GBoHers. Mark and I have come up with a new rule for Phalanxes (and all double- sized units) which, we hope, reflects both their strength and their brittleness (brittleosity?). We would like those of you playing SPQR, Alex, etc, to give it a try and tell us how it works, what you think, etc. When any double-sized unit accumulates enuf hits that would normally make it Rout, insteand, roll the die. Adjust the DR by the # of hits that exceed the printed TQ. (Thus, a PH of 6 TQ with 4 hits that receives 4 more hits would add 2 [+2] to that DR). If that "Rout DR" is EQUAL OR LESS than the printed TQ, the unit does NOT Rout. Instead, it stands, with hits = to its TQ minus 1. If the Rout DR is GREATER than the printed TQ, the unit retreats two hexes (as it normally would do) and is, after that retreat, ELIMINATED. There it be . . . .give it a try and tell us what you think. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 119 Sat Sep 02, 1995 M.PITTS4 at 11:43 EDT I saw 3-DOG prominently displayed in the new games section of Sword of the Phoenix, Atlanta, GA as of this past Monday (Aug. 28). The detergent box is reminiscent of past (SPI) times :). M.Pitts ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 120 Sat Sep 02, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 14:50 EDT Hate to do this, but I have to make a price complaint. Diadochi was $16 retail at the game store. That's for 200 counters (actually the equivalent of, since many are double-sized and one is quadruple-sized), and 10 pages of scenarios. You're average non-monster Command is $16.95 for the same nember of counters, a map, a rules booklet and a magazine both of which are on glossy paper). What gives? Are paper costs higher for you guys than for others? Even 3DoG seems like it should be around $50. Help me justify my purchases, please. -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 121 Sat Sep 02, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 20:20 EDT Dick - I talked to Gene by phone last Thurs. He was still recovering from who knows what alergic reaction and or sickness as a result of too much vacation (!) -- or si it seems. He is at an LA con. this weekend so I expect he will return to Genieland next week some time. - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 122 Sat Sep 02, 1995 M.SZARKA [Mike] at 20:55 EDT JC, not that GMT needs me to go to bat for them, but as Diadochi is a module with necessarily limited sales potential, and the economies of scale which Command benefits from are simply not there. Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 123 Sun Sep 03, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 06:19 EDT Re new Phalanx rout rule: I wish I had gotten online yesterday as I had the chance to play a little and could have tested it. My only initial concern is that you've set up the potential for a unit to possibly never rout. Though I still think it would just be easier if you let just PHs take twice its TQ in cohesion hits (then kill them upon rout), at least this new rule gives them more staying power. Ciao, Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 124 Sun Sep 03, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 09:04 EDT Sal, what we've done is to try to extend both the PH's "numerical" power as well as the brittle(osity) of such a formation, as noted. Yes, there is a mathematical possibility that a PH will never rout . . . then again, once it does, it can't be rallied. Not a bade trade-off in utility, in game terms. What we do have to do is modify the rule slightly so that it does not make PHs attack-happy . . . . Probably a DRM . . . Mike P. If I'm not mistaken, that Sword-Phoenix in Atlanta is run by one of the fellows who was an original Final Playtest in Georgia groupie for the original TSS. As for the price of Diadochoi, as well as other modules . . . Mike S has pretty much answered that 'q'. A Command issue is a presold item of about 7500; that means they already know what that issue has brought in. Modules do not have that luxury; and most of them have to be discounted to distributors, which means GMT doesn't get $16; they get c. $6.50. And as ojly, maybe, 5% of sales are direct, that means GMT is getting about $7 a module. Not much room for profiut there, is there . . . . Speaking of modules, anyone wanna guess which is the "best-selling" of all GBoH modules? No prize; just the satisfactionb of being more knowledgeable than the rest of the hoi poloi . . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 125 Sun Sep 03, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 09:14 EDT For the experimental (but probable) PH Rout Rule, add three (+3) if the double- sizer was Attacking at the time . . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 126 Mon Sep 04, 1995 O.SOGARD [SOGARD] at 05:53 EDT Richard, Have you ever considered the battle of Fontenoy (May 11, 1745) for your GBoH series? It looks like it could be a perfect fit for a game in the series. It contains Frederick's only real rival in the period, Maurice of Saxony, along with the presence of Louis XV on the field coupled with one jim dandy of a British infantry assault. You could pair it up with whatever of Frederick's battles you would want. I have just read Reed Browning's THE WAR OF THE AUSTRIAN SUCCESSION (St. Martin's Press, 1993). I was interested in a good account regarding Maria Theresa and while it lacked the profile I was looking for, it did contain a very good history of the war and an account of war making in the 18th century. SOGARD ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 127 Mon Sep 04, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:21 EDT Sogard . . .eventually, we'll get around to that era, although Lord knows when. Now that the "consciousness level" of gamers has been raised, doing some of these interesting battles becomes a viable (economically) opportunity. Played the battle of Paraitecene yesterday (from Diadochoi). Great stuff (and wer used the new EL command/.charge rules). I did note some setup hex questions (that I'm sure Mark will answer . . .shortly). But it was a real nip- and-tuck affair, with mistakes aplenty on both sides, and lots of rapid attacks, etc. Eumenes got a few of his elephant corps to push Antgones LW cav back, but then he made the mistake of trying to attack Antigonus' HI with his HC. The HC - and Eumenes - got pinned against the HI when Antigonus' LC counter-attacked, which put Eumenes hors de combat for several turns. On the other hand, Antigonus had split his EL screen left and right, allowing Eumenes' ELs to charge directly at the center of Antigonus' line (bowling over a host of unfortunate archers). Massive frontal EL charge destroyed the heart of Eumenes' elephant corps . . . and did woeful damage to Antigonus' phalanx line. With both of Eumenes' flanks in danger, but the center of Antigonus' line about to collapse, I had to go buy my son a phone for college . . . so we left it hanging there. Real Life won, 2-1. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 128 Mon Sep 04, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 07:48 EDT Richard, You'll never guess. I've got GBoH questions. :) Actually it's just clarrification about the new PH rout rule. You mention attacking PHs add three to the rout TQ check. I just want to make sure that is in addition to whatever modifier they have for going over their TQ, and that it only applies in that situation (not for example, during pre-shock check). And finally if the PH survives the rout roll and ends with TQ-1, I assume that it does NOT have to roll for collapse during the collapse stage. Ciao, Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 129 Mon Sep 04, 1995 MIH.SUPPORT [Ulrich] at 13:19 EDT Richard: I prefer the old PH rule simply because the new one is one more exception (although it might be a little bit more "realistic"). By the way, I played my first two GBH battle in a year last weekend, Samarkand and Pelium from GBoA - the old magic was immediately back! I hope to play the bigger battles soon. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 130 Mon Sep 04, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 13:57 EDT RHB, I've collected as much 3DoG errata posted here as I could find but still have a some questions concerning the Confederate Master Reinforce- ment and Arrival Schedule. 1. July 1, 1200: Should the "Pittsylvania" battery really be the "Lewis batteries (Garnett's Bn)? I could not find a Pittsylvania piece. I do have Lewis a&b which I could not find an entry time for. 2. July 1, 1800: Should the "Lynchburg" battery be Lee's batteries (Latimer/Johnson)? The only Lynchburg piece I found was of Dearing's Bn, arrives July 2, 1400. I could no find an arrival time for Lee's batteries (Latimer Bn). 3. July 1, 1840: I can not find a "Ga Regular" battery (Nelson's Bn). I do have a "Mldge" a&b of Nelson's Bn for which I can'y find an entry time. 4. July 1, 1240: Should the "Louisa" batteries be Morris (Carter Bn)? I could not find the Louisa battery and I have the Morris battery with no entry time. 5. July 2, 0700: I could not find the "Bedford" battery but have a "Taylor battery (Alexander's Bn) for which I cannot find an entry time. 6. July 2, 1600: Does the "Jackson" horse artillery enter with the rest of Beckham's horse artillery? Thanks for your help, Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 131 Mon Sep 04, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 21:24 EDT Everybody- Thanks for enlightening me to the economics of module production. Actually, I figured the big Hoplite counter alone was worth $16! RHB - my guess as to the best selling GBoH module would have to be War Elephant, as I believe it was the only one to be reprinted. Haven't tried the new PH rules as I've been slugging away at 3DoG. Question (forgive me if I missed the answer earlier): Does the low-density fire modifier for artillery apply if the target is artillery, i.e. is the number of guns the same as the number of strength points in this case? -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 132 Tue Sep 05, 1995 T.TRANT at 00:20 EDT About Diadochi: The Gaza setup is definitely incomplete: Ptolemy is missing most of his phalanx. This is pretty obvious when you compare the total Size and TQ ratings of the listed troops with the values given in the rout ratio calculation. Once you've figured out that you need 50 (!) more Size points and 31 worth of TQ, you just have to remember that the best troops are almost always on the right. Add four more TQ 6 phalanx units and one of TQ 7, set up to continue the line of the two listed phalanxes. There's also a fair bit of space in the rules section spent on the possibilities for a joint skirmisher & elephant line, even though Ptolemy has no elephants and Demetrius has no skirmishers. Gaza is a neat little battle, with its limited (but varied) number of units and quick playing time. I was playing solo: Ptolemy had the battle won (just had to wait for some enemy cavalry to actually rout off the map) when Seleucus died in Personal Combat with Demetrius - he'd carefully stayed away and joined an adjacent part of the Heavy Cavalry melee instead, but Advance After Combat brought them face to face after all. Another general GBoH question: wasn't there a Misslie Combat die modifier for firing at Skirmishers in one of the modules? Shouldn't this apply everywhere? Tim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 133 Tue Sep 05, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:38 EDT Aaaah, back to work . . . lots of questions. Sal. You're right, so far. And your assumptions are correct. Uli. It may be an exception, but it should be a more accurate representa- tion of how PHs, etc worked. We'll see when the "tester" reports come in. Oh, and one more system change Mark and I have "approved": Routed SK units on the map during the Rout Phase are eliminated. (Not rout moved, etc.) Ken T. You're right down the line. Problem with CSA batteries is that most of them have(had) 2 names . . . I probably coss-checked my OoB rather than the countersheet manifest in doin the scenario stuff. Sorry. JC: Low density fire modifier also applies to arty targets. Tim T. As for Gaza set up, I have to leave that for mark, altho I do know that the deployment is a bit unusual. The El/SK rule is sort of a generic rule for the module . . . and I do remember that Missile vs SK DRM. Sounds like it should be "endemic"; I'll check. We are working on a new elephant command/charge rule, tho, that will better portray using the big boys. We should have a Diadochoi Errata by week's end. Hopefully . . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 134 Tue Sep 05, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 17:55 EDT I got my playtester copy of 3DOG today. O frabjous day. It looks good, very good. I hope this one does well for GMT. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 135 Tue Sep 05, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 20:17 EDT RHB, Thanks for the 3Dog info. My poor eyes worked overtime trying to make sure I hadn't missed something. It doesn't help that I still haven't gotten used to bifocals (oops the b... word). It's a bit of a squeeze getting all three maps on my gaming table, but they sure look nice once together. Thanks again, Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 136 Tue Sep 05, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 21:54 EDT The new issue of MHQ has an article by Victory Davis Hanson on Delium. I have a funny feeling that the giant phalanx in Diadochi is for the densely packed Theban right wing in that battle. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 137 Wed Sep 06, 1995 P.KELLER3 [Pete] at 03:48 EDT Grinner, How Many B-17s do the Americans get in Schweinfurt? Pete ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 138 Wed Sep 06, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 05:42 EDT Some additional errata for 3DoG: 1. Union Master Reinf. Schedule; 7/1, 1900: that should be the 3/3/I brigade (not the 3/1/III). 2. The CSA 14Va, 16Va, and 17Va Cav regiments should be in the 4th Cav brigade, not the 3rd. 3. Union 10 MA (2/2/I) should be the 12 MA. The latter two will probably find their way into C3i in a month or two. In the meantime, we are working on the pub schedule for the next 6-9 months Along with this will come some "frabjous" (to borrow a phrase from Dave the Powell) pre-pub offers, altho they will not be as stress-producing as the 3DoG offer. They will be well worth it tho . . . .at this point it looks like (subject to change in next week or so) the Fall/pre-Xmas games will be GLORY, the BELLUM cardgame, and NORWAY . . . plus a GB0H module, probably either for Alex or JC. The frontrunner for that is PHALANX, the apogee of Hellenistic warfare (battles of Sellassia and Mantinea, 3rd century BC). The JC module would be JUGURTHA; we have decided to package Alesia with the three main battles of the campaigns into a full box game: THE GALLIC WARS, probably for sometime 1996. All, as I said, subject to further "meetings" . . . . RHB and Gene, almost rec- overed, should be back on shortly. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 139 Wed Sep 06, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:19 EDT And throw another shrimp on the 3DoG Errata-barbie: ADD to DR adjustments to Fire Table: +1 if target is non-moving (non- phasing) mounted cavalry. (This is cumulative with the mount/dismount DRM) RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 140 Wed Sep 06, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 06:43 EDT To Diado players, Just a little reminder that all the ELs in the EL/SK line have full archers, not just screens. Don't forget to keep that in mind when shooting, especially against other ELs as the result will be 2 cohesion hits not 1 as in SPQR when EL screens hit another EL. Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 141 Wed Sep 06, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner(0-5)] at 07:38 EDT Pete, > Grinner, How Many B-17s do the Americans get in Schweinfurt? The info is right there in the narrative. You get 229 B-17s or 280 during October ;). Good question. Another one is "What target type is used for Schweinfurt? Industrial complex or Factory?" I don't believe that I have any early info on this. And the way things changed, it might not be up to date anyway. Heck, the last set I saw still had a bunch of Italian aircraft and a Polish bomber... But based on historical results and assuming that the Draw result is equivlant to same (i.e. over 20% losses and some damage to the (vital) target), I'd guess that you get 6 B-17Fs and 3 B-17Gs vs the Factory Target. In October you'd get all 12 B-17s. I guess we can wait for Gene on this one too. :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 142 Wed Sep 06, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 20:54 EDT I bought a copy of Typhoon this week. It looks very nice and I am eager to play it. I particularly like the Soviet counter colors. The map is also great-looking. However, both the Typhoon maps and the 3DOG maps are awfully - thin-. I would gladly shell out more money for thicker paper. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 143 Wed Sep 06, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 22:33 EDT Richard, When you fix the Union 10 MA and the CSA 14Va, 16Va, and 17Va Cav regiments in C3i in a month or two, _please_ include as well a fix for the 3rd AK!! Also, could you or someone else post when the issue of C3i comes out that contains these replacements? My local hobby store does not carry C3i and I cannot currently afford a subscription. Thank you! Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 144 Thu Sep 07, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 02:19 EDT Richard, Thanks for all the 3DOG errata. When my game comes from the distributor, it will all come in handy. However, I think a point has to be made about 3DOG's need for errata. I've seen other people's copies, and have all the errata. I don't want to sound harsh, as I've been both a designer and a developer, and I know how hard either can be. But this game was released way too early, with a bunch of mistakes that should have been caught in the development process. This idea of setting an arbitrary deadline for release, then promising a huge discount if it's late, is not working out. The quality is suffering. Gene, when you get back on line, please dump this policy. It's not worth the cost in hurried development and proofreading. I'd rather have a good game done well, arriving a little late, than one that bears the scars of getting rushed out the door. GMT isn't 3W, but if this keeps up, they're liable to look too much alike. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 145 Thu Sep 07, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:05 EDT Actually, Jim, most of the errata is of the type that probably would not have been caught had we delayed any further. ALL games have errata; you often wonder why you did not see something until "too late", but it happens. I cannot remember a game I have done (never mind anyone else) that did not have several "How the Hell did we Miss That?!??! pieces of errata. The counter mistakes are perfect examples of that . . . as the counters had been finished (an "in") for some time, and we proofread Roger's copies three different times. The only area that suffered from the "deadline" was the phantom white spotws on the map. And, believe me, JW, you have no idea how much of a plus marketing ploy the whole thing was . . . .All errata "...should have been caught", as you say; that it wasn't is why it's errata. In any case, I'm sure we will be seeing much similar pre-pub offers from GMT, altho the "penalty" will be somewhat less severe. I should have the Herman-approved Diadochoi errata by weekend, so you can all take a look at the new EL rule, et al. Right now, modular discussions revolve around whether we should release the LION module, Tercio, next, or the Phalanx or Jugurtha module's (see message above). Comments invited (except for Salvatore, who we have already noted as voting for any Caesar module extant . . . ) RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 146 Thu Sep 07, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 10:35 EDT At long last, I'm back and (almost) ready to work. I've read most of the e- mail and messages above, and will endeavor to answer within a few days. Greg, you get bonus points for Schweinfurt. It is, indeed 6 and 3. The tar target type, though, is Industrial Complex. Jim, Thanks for the input. I'm not sure your points are borne out by the facts, though. Four of the five games we released on that pre-pub offer have needed precious little errata. The bigger games have needed more, not surprisingly. I tend to agree with Richard that we caught most of what we would have caught (one never knows, though), but the sheer size of the project was rather daunting. The things that bugged me about the deadline were the map spots, which we certainly could have fixed given a couple of more weeks. The choice was: fix the spots and give back $25,000, or live with them and stay in business. THAT's the problem with the specific offer we made; that's a lousy choice to have to make. As Richard noted, all in all, the offer was a major hit for us. We have, though, learned a lot and made a list of "do's" and "don'ts" for future offers. For the fall pre-pub (which will go out in about ten days), we'll offer a premium to the gamer if we don't get the games out by a certain date, but 1) we've given ou ourselves a bit more time, 2) we'll not promise a date for a specific game, only a date by which they'll all be finished, and 3) it won't be get the game for $5. We'll use a premium that will be very valuable to the gamer but won't sink the company (or force the kind of choice noted above) if we don't hit it. MAke no mistake; we are committed to getting games out in a timely manner. In doing so, however, we have to leave ourselves the flexibility to fix production glitches. 3W? (Ouch!) I don't think so, Tim... Mark, That's definitely the first time I've heard that comment about the maps. About six months ago we changed to a THICKER stock paper from earlier maps. STill, sometimes printers use supposedly the same stock paper from different manufacturers that comes out differently. This should be the same stock as for Deluxe Al, Sinai, and Typhoon! I'll talk to the printer, just to make sure. Thanks for the heads-up. Dave P., Glad your copy got there in good shape. Enjoy it. You deserve it. We REALLY appreciate your help and input. Ditto, by the way, to all of the testers who helped with this summer's games. You guys' help was integral to our keeping both our word and a high quality product. We're wrapping up our decision-making for what goes to art next (as we have about ten games ready or very nearly ready, it's not an easy choice). Richard's already mentioned what's on the table from his (and Mark's) end. We also have an air-land-sea Norway game, a smaller game in the Typhoon! series, and, sooner or later, we slip in David Rithie's game on the drive toeningrad. More later. Enjoy the games! Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 147 Thu Sep 07, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 18:16 EDT Richard and Gene, I just have high expectations because of past accomplishments. My stuff all has a number of "how the hell'd I miss that" in it; in the long run, it can't be totally avoided. Still, I wish you had had a little more time, and I still think that the rushing of games into print this way offsets any marketing advantages. Of course, there is another way around it. This is to estimate the date of the game's completion, then add a month or two to the announced release date. That should help take care of things such as the 3DOG map proofs and the misaligned Typhoon charts. Then, if the game comes out before the projected release, everybody looks like a genius. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 148 Thu Sep 07, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 20:02 EDT Rich= Regarding the next GBoH module: I vote Tercio, cus maybe it'll inspire me to pull Lion off the shelf, punch it out, and actually play it! I'm afraid it has long been delegated to the this-looks- cool-maybe-someday-I'll-play-it pile. -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 149 Thu Sep 07, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner(0-5)] at 21:09 EDT Gene, Thanks for the info. Don't forget the other questions on 8th Air Force. To restate: 1) For Jets, do you always draw Full Throttle counters equal to the Thrust value, or is this mitigated by Speed? 2) The Komet isn't marked as "turbocharged". Does it suffer from altitude restrictions? I remember that earlier there were special rules for the 163, did they get missed in the final copy? Thanks, :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 150 Fri Sep 08, 1995 D.STARRY at 03:43 EDT I am finally diving into the copy of Operation Mercury which I purchased this spring and had a few comments I'd like to share. Apparently I have an interest in this subject matter, as I've picked up every Crete game I can find over the past 20 years [including Crete (SPI), Air Assault on Crete (AH), Descent on Crete (SPI), Marita-Merkur (GDW), and Hunters from the Sky (Gamers)]. I think it is just a fascination with airborne assaults in general. In any event, it is good to see the subject covered at this scale and scope. I'm just getting into the first scenario which dosen't hold a lot of interest, but is a good tool to learn the innovative combat system. At this scale, and with the objectives such as they are, there dosen't seem to be much room for maneuver, at least in the early game with the Germans landing right on top of their objectives (and the allied forces). Fortunately, the combat sequence provides enough spice to keep things interesting. I thought that the solitaire rating on the box was a bit off due to the hidden nature of the naval game. Certainly very playable solitaire, just that I don't feel that the game should have been rated at the top of the scale. In any event, I am looking forward to diving into the campaign game this weekend. I must commend you on a very well written rulesbook. It is clear and concise and overall enjoyable to read. I did, however, have a few questions: 1)The paralyzation rule gives the commonwealth forces a movement allowance of "1" on the first game turn. If the Germans successfully interdict the Maleme/Suda sector on game turn 1, this movement allowance will be reduced to "0". Do the commonwealth forces in the Maleme/Suda sector that has been inderdicted at level 1 or 2 on game turn 1 still get to make the minimum 1 hex movement, or are they, in effect, frozen in place? 2)There is a hexside terrain feature which I cannot seem to find any description of. An example is hexside W 1325/1425. What is this terrain, and what is it's effect on play? 3)Does an artillery unit which becomes dispersed have it's bombartment factor halved? 4)There appears to be a discrepancy between the German airborne HQ efficiency factors. The counters have a 7, while the German setup card shows a factor of 8. Which is correct? Also, I have a quickie regarding 3 DoG and the "new GBACW system". From what I have read, it appears that the new game system is not compatible with the older games in the GBACW series. Will there be any effort to publish the changes necessary to bring some of the older titles in line with the new game system? I would love to play First Blood without using the TCT. Not that I didn't like the TCT, as I thought it made the games very tense and exciting, just that it takes flippin' forever. The system was both fast moving and slow moving at the same time (if that makes any sense). Dave Starry. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 151 Fri Sep 08, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:55 EDT Before proceeding with the latest round of answers and errata, I should point out to Jim W that 3DoG was NOT rushed to completion. It had finished beta testing way before it went in-house. What made it difficult were out-of-house problems (e.g., changes in counter design) that pushed the production to the "edge". Having said that, note the following changes to the use of Mounted cavalry (the boys over on AoL have been much sharper than you folks): 1. The -1 DRM when mounted cav is the target applies only when it is moving - which means as part of b/1 and b/2 Reaction Fire. 2. The +1 DRM against "stationary" mtd cav applies at all other times. 3. Mounted cav has a DRM of -1 when it fires; that is ia -2 DRM when it fires as part of/during movement. 4. The max number of Mounted Cav SPs that can fire out of a hex is 4 (not 7 as with infantry and dsmtd cav). And Dave S, we do not plan on releasing any "updating" kit