From: Markus Stumptner Subject: Re: MISC: Wargaming "Camp" labels (long) Jim Matt wrote: >The other term we use, grognard, seems to have mutated like the word hacker. I don't think it's really mutation, it's more like a split. I think the term sounds nice and has therefore been appropriated by various, partially independent strata of wargaming society. 1. Simply meaning "veteran". That would include Spike's AH Classic people and the group you mentioned (continuous wargamers since before the demise of SPI). *But* when you say >I do believe that a person today can attain >grognard status without ever playing a game published prior to the entry of >SPI then I say, yes, definitely. In fact, most people's gut reaction would be: what, put fingerprints on a museum piece?? :-) But that's not because the term has changed, it's because the temporal context has shifted. Note: the era since the DEMISE of SPI now already lasts longer than the whole SPI era. I.e., if someone who started in 1985 can't be a grognard, then no one whose first game was Tactical Game 3 would have qualified in 1981. So, I think the shift you perceive occurs largely just because time passes and "played during the SPI era" is no longer a prerequisite for "long-term participation in the hobby" (i.e., meaning #1.). 2. A dedicated gamer. Is someone a grognard who played the occasional game of Panzerblitz in the 1970s, a friend's Wooden Ships & Iron Men copy in the 1980s, and a monthly bout of Civilization or Britannia since then? I wouldn't say so. What seems to be required is a certain degree of involvement (mag subscriptions, fanatic development of houserules or historical fixes, a game table in the house, or even just the willingness to buy the occasional game). I think 1. and 2. are the generally most widespread uses of the term *unless* we are dealing with the discussion of specific games, mostly in the context of "I would never play game X, it's too large/detailed". That leads us to interpretation 3 and 4. 3. People who play games other people consider as work, not fun. This (pure guessing) is the traditional we/you distinction which raised Spike's crankiness because he thought he detected it in your post. "I'm a grognard because I've played six campaigns of TSS". In other words, what counts is the degree of involvement one is ready to go to to just play one particular game (monster game, or hugely complex game, so 3R and War in the Pacific would both qualify). (I would use SFB as an example for complexity here, but I confess I would not apply the word "grognard" to someone who has no roots in historical conflict simulation.) 4. Synonym for "masochist". This is the extreme version of 3, and it virtually never occurs in a different form than as part of the phrase "true grognard". Typically employed to discredit others as wimps who argue that a particular game (in particular monster game) has cumbersome mechanisms. "Of course you could design a mechanism to do exactly the same thing in a quarter the time, but this is a game for the true grognard." The necessity of detail or complexity is no longer an argument here; the statements are phrased as if it had become the goal. (Note: I've seen that comment applied to a number of games over time, but ironically never to CNA. CNA apparently is just too far from all other human and grognard experience to qualify for this defense.) Just a second while I change into my flame-retardant suit... :-) Markus From: Richard Simon Subject: Re: FW: MISC: Wargaming "Camp" labels << but i _am_ considering limiting it to people who were wargaming before 1979. (-: >> Real grognards were wargaming before 1969 !! (And there aren't that many of us) From: "Kaufman, Arius" Subject: Re: FW: MISC: Wargaming "Camp" labels > Real grognards were wargaming before 1969 !! (And there aren't that many of us) I've been gaming since roughly 1981. I know a bit about wargames, own and play alot of wargames, platested wargames, and am co-designer of VMS. I do not consider myself a grognard. Not yet. Just because I can hit a 90mph fastball doesn't make me a power hitter. Besides-- a true grognard is someone who can get a woman to play Tactics II and get her to "Unconditionally Surrender" in writing. Arius From: Markus Stumptner Subject: Re: FW: MISC: Wargaming "Camp" labels >I've been gaming since roughly 1981. I know a bit about wargames, own >and play alot of wargames, platested wargames, and am co-designer of >VMS. I do not consider myself a grognard. Not yet. Just because I can What does operating system design have to do with grognarddom? Or am I missing an acronym here? :-) Markus From: "Arius V. Kaufmann" Subject: Re: FW: MISC: Wargaming "Camp" labels > What does operating system design have to do with grognarddom? > Or am I missing an acronym here? :-) VMS, in this case, is the Vector Movement System for tactical space games like AoG's Babylon5 Wars. It replaces fanciful movement systems with a system based on Newtonian physics. In fact, VMS is also easier to use than B5's movement system. (VMS: 4 pages of rules including graphics. B5: over 20 pages of rules including graphics.) I think someone named Chris Weuve had some minor influence on its development. see: http://www.wizard.net/~caw Arius From: "Patrick R. Collins" Subject: Re: FW: MISC: Wargaming "Camp" labels On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Kaufman, Arius wrote: > Besides-- a true grognard is someone who can get a woman to play Tactics > II and get her to "Unconditionally Surrender" in writing. Ha! I got my wife to play Caesar at Alesia - and keep it set up in the living room for three weeks! Regards, Pat pcollins@prairienet.org Last Played: Strike North, Fury on Champlain, Race for Space In Progress: Air Bridge to Victory (PBEM), Hoorah!, April's Harvest http://www.prairienet.org/~pcollins From: John Best Subject: Re: MISC: Wargaming "Camp" labels (long) Well, I don't really have a heck of a lot to add to this intriguing discussion, but for whatever it's worth, I think Markus analyzed the situation in a very lucid way: >Jim Matt wrote: >>The other term we use, grognard, seems to have mutated like the word hacker. > >I don't think it's really mutation, it's more like a split. I think the >term sounds nice and has therefore been appropriated by various, partially >independent strata of wargaming society. > >1. Simply meaning "veteran". That would include Spike's AH Classic people >and the group you mentioned (continuous wargamers since before the demise >of SPI). [snippity] > >2. A dedicated gamer. Is someone a grognard who played the occasional >game of Panzerblitz in the 1970s, a friend's Wooden Ships & Iron Men >copy in the 1980s, and a monthly bout of Civilization or Britannia >since then? I wouldn't say so. What seems to be required is a >certain degree of involvement (mag subscriptions, fanatic development >of houserules or historical fixes, a game table in the house, or even >just the willingness to buy the occasional game). > >I think 1. and 2. are the generally most widespread uses of the term [snippity again] I think Markus is striving for the connotative meaning, or the meanings, of the term, and this I think is the only approach that has any hope of recovering any meaning from the word "grognard" (any attempts at a denotative meaning would be, I fear, hopeless). My contribution would be to add that, as a result of his veteran status, and dedication, the term grognard also connotes to me a man who has a breadth and depth of knowledge of, our favorite things, wargames. And in addition to this knowledge, the term also connotes to me a man who has a liking, or even something like a love for wargames. So let's test out these connotations and see if they ring true. What I'm saying about the depth and breadth of knowledge is that I can think of a wargame term almost at random...let's say "Pollard markers". *We* all know what they are, but hardly anybody else on the surface of the planet knows what they are. We are grognards (this is just an example son). Along those lines, one of things about consim-l that I value most is this tremendous depth of knowledge about wargames that the readership has. In fact, in the tooting our own horn department, as a group, I doubt highly that there is any other group (however a group might be defined for these purposes) that could be demonstrated to know more about our old friends, the hex'n'counter wargame than we do. I'm sure that the military people know more about the military wargames than we do. But I don't think they know more about these commerical products that we have been purchasing for lo these past three decades or so than we do--that's our turf and our preserve. On the other issue, the love and joy of wargaming. There is something about valuing the entire enterprise that comes across to me when I think of a grognard (as opposed to a casual gamer)--I think this element is something like being a "fan" of wargames. So, like the true baseball fan who already sees "6--4--3" developing in those first few milliseconds after the crack of the bat, and has just enough time to develop that wonderful anticipation and satisfaction if his team turns it, the grognard maybe already sees the overrun possibility coming up, figures out how to make the breakpoint on the CRT, and if it comes off, thinks, "Dang, that was so cool." > >Just a second while I change into my flame-retardant suit... :-) > > Markus > No need on my account. Thanks for reading. John Best jlbest@tuscola.net Current and last three in reverse chronology: Caporetto, 1918 (SPI), Verdun, All Quiet on the Western Front?