Stefan Anton Federsel - Oct 30, 2006 5:57 am (#3552 Total: 3598) THE CUBAN REVOLUTION ON THE TABLE Just prepared THE CUBAN REVOLUTION (ed. 2006) for the MOST COMPREHENSIVE REPLAY to feed the support page on the Khyber Pass Games home page. Here the first impressions about the new styled edition: (+) the map shows the area boundaries much better than earlier (+) the map is allover more stylish and colourful (-) the mountains are not very easy to identify b/c the stylish green (-) roads and especially the railroad is hard to identify, too (+/-) the counters have a flag along with the nato symbol of the unit (+) die cut counters (not DTP) for immediate play (August sale!) (-) the terrain description in the rules w/o colour code (-) OOB chart with mistake : BRAC unit entry is missing! (-) 1 police unit w/o regional identification (-) no note on CAMAGUEY, which is a not playable area All in all minor things, but if you count up to the total the product needs more attention IN THE DETAILS when you revise it for a 2nd (i.e. better) edition! Stefan Anton Federsel - Oct 30, 2006 6:10 am (#3553 Total: 3598) CHE WIN IN 5 - a tough nut to crack! Hello! Can you tell me the probability in percent that the CHE player will win just before the Bolivian SF forces can arrive in GT 5? Until this point of time you ll have to put out all TRC sites. Assume you ll get a GUERILLA REINFORCEMENT in GT 2 and 4 only and you must GUARANTEE that Che cannot be eliminated by an enemy hit (i.e. he must be accompanied at least by 1 other guerilla unit when attacking). Tell me your moves and send an email to SFed62@rambler.ru until 12/01/2006. If your right, you ll get a CHE copy (ed. 2006)FOR FREE (incl. package + shipment). Have fun in the Bolivian mountains, enjoy your stay in Cochabamba! Stefan Anton Federsel - Oct 31, 2006 7:05 am (#3554 Total: 3598) appendix to CHE contest (IMPORTANT!) .. just 1 more hint for the contest: you can exspect as a guerilla player NO LOSSES by bad rolling of the Bolivian player ( makes things easier!). Further play along the optional rules of ADVANCED CHE ( you ll find it at the Khyber Pass Games Home Page / Support Section!) If more than 1 correct answer arrives, my wife will draw the lucky winner chit! Stefan Anton Federsel - Oct 31, 2006 7:26 am (#3555 Total: 3598) CUBAN REVOLUTION DISCUSSION Just after the first replay some question arise: (1) after set up and OOB chart some counters w/o designation are left yet. Are they spare ones ? the SNFE D counter seems to be another dropout in the OOB chart. (2) Is the air / naval bombardement a 1 SHOT affair ? Assume there are some combat rounds in a battle in an area the air CANNOT BOMBARD EACH COMBAT ROUND! (after the first replay there wasn t ANY HIT by any of this units - is this intended ?) (3) Can the Batista Marine Units retreat BY SEA to any applicable friendly occupied area ? (4) Is an area FRIENDLY OCCUPIED only if there is at least 1 FRIENDLY GROUND UNIT in it w/o any opposing ground units ? GENERAL CRITICS: it is VERY EASY for the BATISTA PLAYER to get at least a DRAW. He needs to do nothing more than to send in 1 mobile unit into COBRE , NIQUERO or SANTIAGO IN THE LAST GAME TURN of the game (Jan.59) , b/c he is the last player, can save at least 1 unit until this date and must not fight, only walk in. Especially the armoured train can do the job pretty well. In other words: the Guerillas can win only if THERE IS NO REAL POSSIBILITY for the enemy to walk adjacent to any of this provinces above, i.e. that YOU MUST KILL THE ARMOURED TRAIN and ANY UNIT WHICH COULD POTENTIALLY REACH THESE PROVINCES on the last turn when the guerillas (1st player) cannot react! Very difficult! The 13 provinces to own play a minor role, anyway. The problem arises b/c the victory conditions are checked AT THE END OF ANY FULL TURN PLAYED, not after the guerilla playimmediately. As a countermeasure the Guerillas must DEMORALIZE the Baptista Troops ASAP and kill the mobile ones in walking / striking range of the critical provinces.As a tricky Baptista player won t attack in the mountains, just walks in, you ll have to fight them in the next turn to drive them out. Dennis L. Bishop - Oct 31, 2006 10:09 pm (#3556 Total: 3598) Stefan, Off the top of my head, I don't have the rules in front of me, I will respond. 1. The SNFE D Column is listed in the errata. 2. Bastiano air and naval are available every turn. 3. Bastiano "marine" units may not evacuate once landed. 4. Correct. GENERAL CRITICS 1. Not if Santiago is guerrilla controlled. 2. I think that you are playing the guerrillas incorrectly, but you have the Bastiano strengths well in hand. 3. That was well considered after multiple playings. I think that the more you play the game, the more you will appreciate the nuances. Playtesting caused both sides to claim that victory was either impossible, or assured. In both cases, I showed people that neither was the case. 4. The Sierra Madres are a tricky situation for the guerrillas, and they don't want the Bastianos in them. There are ways to turn the Bastiano incursion into a disaster, but on the other side, it can provide a decisive move for the Bastiano player. Thanks for your interest in the game, and keep playing it to provide even more insights. Stefan Anton Federsel - Nov 1, 2006 8:07 am (#3557 Total: 3598) more hot questions on CUBA where can I get all the errata for the 2nd edition (BRAC also was omitted in OOB as I told you earlier) add 1) the victory conditions state that the guerilla player MUST OCCUPY 13 provinces INCLUDING the INITIAL THREE PLUS SANTIAGO! add 2) I think I did best for the guerillas: in the first three month capture as many provinces as possible (about 14 is realistic) to DEMORALIZE the Batista force. THen try to hold much of it and kick out any Batista invaders in the critical provinces! ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Once more I need details for the most comprehensive replay: 1) Can an air / naval unit bombard only ONCE PER COMBAT SITUATION or ONCE IN ANY COMBAT ROUND ? I haven t seen any hit by these forces until today (dr = 1 for 1 hit!). 2) Does a air / naval unit stay in the province after combat or is it withdrawn after combat off map ? 3) Can an air / naval unit attack a province ALONE w/o any ground forces ? If yes, how many combat rounds can be declared against a defender then ? Questions over Question. As the nights are cold in Moscow, much the more hotter on the table ... ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// add 3) to kill ALL GUERILLAS seems to be rather impossible: you ll need excellent rolls on the defence and attack. Give hints, please! add 4) my Baptista force avoids combat attacking in the mountains b/c of an imminent guerilla ambush; let the guerillas attack on its own to get higher lossed with a less drm! Your hints are appreciated, if feedback soon arrives P.S.: take part in the ADVANCED CHE CONTEST ABOVE to show your ultimative insight in the game! Stefan Anton Federsel - Nov 2, 2006 6:19 am (#3558 Total: 3598) more CUBA questions 2.2 MAP: is CAMAGUEY playable or not ? 4.23 ARM TRAIN: is this unit considered to be a TANK UNIT and thus eligible for the important tank modifier ? 5.12 RETREAT: Can the attacker retreat into a FREE PROVINCE ( no units in there)as an alternative to an friendly occupied province ? 5.12 RETREAT: the DEFENDER CANNOT RETREAT anyway along the rules. Is this intended ? 3.31 OCCUPATION: is this definition true for a RETREAT SITUATION also or can a unit retreat in a province where FRIENDLY AND ENEMY UNITS are located at this moment ? Questions over Questions .... Stefan Anton Federsel - Nov 2, 2006 6:40 am (#3559 Total: 3598) THE CUBAN REVOLUTION DOESN T HAPPEN ! Just more AAR: normally as a guerilla you can occupy 10 - 14 provinces after GT 3 (April 1958), which is enough to demoralize the Baptista forces. But a nasty Baptista player sends in at least 1 unit from the Bayamo reinforcement center adjacent to the most critical provinces (Niquero / Cobre / Santiago -- Tenedos, the 4th site in the north is a minor issue) to block immediate guerilla victory. Baptistas don t attack in the mountains to avoid ambush. So they come in with a formidable force ( tank plus 4+ Inf units usually at least) to force the guerilla to kick them out which leads to bloody battle in June / July 1958. The attrition score is about 50% : 50% b/c the demoralisation effect on Baptista in the mountains (-1 drm for guerillas) is not applicable and the tank modifier against guerilla fighting in the mountains modifier cancal each other out. The guerillas get weaker and weaker in autumn and must give up some provinces for the defence of the critical ones (see above). They barely survive with about 10+ guerilla units until the magical date of Dec. 1958 when the next big reinforcements arrive. Baptista is also not in better shape (6+ units left!), but tries a magical BRAC roll to demoralize the guerillas, which is not an issue often (you need dr = 1!) Instead the Armoured train is kept out of guerilla reach to rail into Santiago or Cobre on the last turn (January 1959) w/o attacking for a guaranted draw. If the train could be actually catched and elim by the guerillas in December, then give it a last try with the Baptista marines with naval & air assets to grab any one of the critical provinces, which are all at the coast. As a countermeasure the gueriilas can garrison this sites properly with good units, but then the question arises how to garrison some more for the magic 13 provinces needed (icluding the critical ones). So I state that a draw is the most likely result if the Baptista plays coutiously and properly. The guerillas need a better kill rate than the Baptistas to survive the summer Baptista offensive in force and prepare for the final onslaught to kill the critical units like the Armoured Train and the Marines. As for now we saw NO OTHER RESULT THAN A DRAW! The Cuban Revolution is far away from being a sure thing ... Stefan Anton Federsel - Nov 4, 2006 5:28 am (#3560 Total: 3598) CUBA - Questions Hello, U @ KPG! To work further with your CUBAN REVOLUTION game I d like to know all the details in question ( mail No. 3555+) above to be sure that I can present a most comprehensive replay then. So I BEG YOU to give some answers / advice / hints!!! Stefan Anton Federsel - Nov 4, 2006 5:34 am (#3561 Total: 3598) CUBA - THE SCORE After our replays of the last days (f2f) we can declare the following score on the running game total: games played: 7 / Batista win: 0/ guerilla win: 2 / draw: 5 / Note: it yet seems almost impossible to KILL ALL GUERILLAS! Maybe the 8.0 Variant rules pushing up Batista forces with another full Division can make you think of a potential Batista win, maybe. And what about your game score ? Stefan Anton Federsel - Nov 4, 2006 5:40 am (#3562 Total: 3598) El Commandante in the air! see rules 5.31: Seems to be a new twist to give El Commandante an air unit (1-0) in December 1958 w/o withdrawing the Batista air unit! So AIR COMBAT seems to be possible! But at the moment no rule about it! Something has to be done ... Dennis L. Bishop - Nov 5, 2006 6:47 am (#3565 Total: 3598) Stefan, Again without the rules in front of me, there is no reinforcement for the BRAC because it can enter the game at any time the Bastiano player selects. It can only be used once and then is eliminated from the the game. I suspect that the extra Bastiano policia unit is not being placed in Camaguey. It should be placed there. Camaguey is a playable province. Dennis L. Bishop - Nov 5, 2006 6:53 am (#3566 Total: 3598) Stefan, Air and Naval units can be used once per turn. These units are removed from the map after they are used, but can return the next turn. There is no air to air nor air to ship combat because the air units were not that sophisticated. They only provided ground support missions historically. Retreating may not occur into provinces occupied by enemy units. Dennis L. Bishop - Nov 5, 2006 6:56 am (#3567 Total: 3598) Air and Naval units can attack alone. The results are iffy, but it is possible. Dennis L. Bishop - Nov 5, 2006 6:58 am (#3568 Total: 3598) The retreat can go into a free province or friendly occupied province. The armored train is not a tank unit. It must abide by regular movement rules. Dennis L. Bishop - Nov 5, 2006 7:00 am (#3569 Total: 3598) Defenders cannot retreat. Attacking units cannot retreat into a contested province. Randy Lein - Nov 5, 2006 7:20 am (#3570 Total: 3598) For our full line of games visit us at http://mysite.verizon.net/rjlein/khyberpass/ Cuban Revolution Guys, I have been out of touch the past week and still am but just to clear up two things I do know. 1. Camaguey is not a playable area. It is shaded differently and I thought that is was thus stated in the rules but that is not the case. 2. The units in the counter mix without an ID are provided to replace any counters that are lost. I had the extra room so I decided to use it to include these. In all the restructuring I forgot to include a note to that affect. Stefan, Thanks for the interest in this game. I will try to respond in more detail later. Randy Lein - KPG Dennis L. Bishop - Nov 5, 2006 7:34 am (#3571 Total: 3598) All, As for the win ratio to the game, we found it to come down to a fairly even break for the both players. Sometimes I think that in-house discussions might be interesting to people. Both Che and Cuban Rev. had people crying out that it was impossible to win one side or the other. I took each to task and readily won as the predominately losing side. There were a few tie games, but victory was more usual. Early in the game, the Bastiano player must expect to lose provinces. 10 to 14 is common in the first game turns. However, depending upon the guerrilla offensives, the Bastiano has several choices. One choice that the Bastiano player does not have is defending Camaguey. However, even the loss of this province is not terrible because the Bastiano can fight on to the map with reinforcements. The Guerrilla player does not have it all his way either. Having to defend the base areas against Bastiano amphibious troops while occupying captured provinces makes timing extremely important, as well as not maintaining a solid line. I envision that many players might be attempting to fight WWI or WWII with lines confronting one another. In this instance, the casualty rates are probably very high. As for the Guerrilla declining combat, it is a tactic, but it is not always successful. This depends upon the Bastiano overall plan. The Bastiano player wants to force the Guerrillas to defend in areas where they are vulnerable. There is no guarantee that the Bastiano armored train will reach Santiago. If the Guerrilla player sets up correctly, it is almost impossible. But again, it is all timing. One Bastiano plan that has been successful is to allow the guerrillas to take as much as possible, fighting hard for only the last two provinces to keep from becoming demoralized. Large stacks and heavy combat result about this time. If the Bastiano player loses these battles, he has to be sneakier. That is where timing all of his assets to one or two key paths comes in. I have suckered several Guerrilla players into this gambit, lost the big battles, and won the game by lucky die rolls and a specific goal. The guerrillas on the other hand have a problem in that it all seems so easy until a disaster occurs. Early victories do not mean that the game is won. Spreading out columns is not a good idea, but how to keep the offensive going while defending what is captured becomes problematic. As for killing all the Guerrilla units, this is a matter of breaking them. When things turn badly for the Guerrillas, the situation becomes unglued very quickly. Both sides have assets built into the game that are not game winners in themselves, but built upon one another properly, and with a little luck, can ultimately be decisive. I suggest that people try some alternative strategies for both sides. The biggest psychological factors for each player are desperation and reaching too far. Historically, I think that the M-16 Movement was doomed because it relied upon the rural support rather than the well organized urban organizations. Over confidence by the Bastianos and later desperation undermined their military operations. So, in the end, I think that the game mirrors the historical situation as viewed from the top decision makers. Dennis L. Bishop - Nov 5, 2006 7:41 am (#3572 Total: 3598) I was going off the top of my head to get some reply to Stefan. Obviously some things have changed since last I looked at the game, so I will graciously bow to Randy's rulings. Randy Lein - Nov 5, 2006 7:56 am (#3573 Total: 3598) For our full line of games visit us at http://mysite.verizon.net/rjlein/khyberpass/ Dennis, You have answered most of the "real" questions, mine were just answers to some physical aspects. And thanks for some tips on tactics and the conundrum that is Cuban Revolution. I remember when I first playtested the game I had similar "can this be won" issues. It took me a little while to see how to overcome the challenges that both sides have. One of it's selling features is that it is a simple, quick game to play. If you lose a game you can set it up again, try a new tactic, and play again, and again, in a short time span. Unlike "Wacht am Rhein", where if you screw that up it might be years before you even think about setting it up again. I think is has been 15 years since I last played that one. I will try to get an errata sheet on the website in the next few days. Randy Lein - KPG Michael Erwin - Nov 5, 2006 4:37 pm (#3575 Total: 3598) Vicente Fox is a murderer. Ulises Ruiz is a murderer. They gave the orders; they took eighteen lives. I keep getting contradictory statements about Camaguey (sic). I put the extra police unit in Santiago. Otherwise, in my experience, the garrison is too vulnerable to a coup de main (and too difficult to reinforce). Were I designing/redesigning the game I'd probably make guerilla reinforcements more dependent on provincs controlled and less dependent on specific months. I'd also give the Batistanos 'strategic' movement (unsure how fast, not into Guerrilla or contested provinces) and get rid of BRAC (too much depends on one die roll). But it's fun as is. Dennis L. Bishop - Nov 5, 2006 5:46 pm (#3576 Total: 3598) Michael, The rules that I played had Camaguey as playable, but this has evidently changed. Randy says that it is unplayable, so that is how it is. Santiago should have the "extra" policia unit. Cuba must be a difficult island to defend. I take your suggestion of strategic Bastiano movement in a positive way, but the Bastiano leadership were not willing to commit the resources to the Oriental provinces. Your second suggestion would work if the peons flocked to the M-16 banner, but it appears that most of the new personnel were landed on the island. Rather than in insurrection, the situation was more like an invasion. It was an invasion by a number of Central and South American nations represented by individuals. Che Guevara was not a Cuban. Had we had the resources, I would have liked the game to have included the entire island, and then the Bastiano player might commit the Havana units which would have turned the tide quickly. But, that would have included so many variables that players might still be attempting to sort them all out. The BRAC is only a single die roll once, so it is not a laborious task, but it can be a decisive weapon. It was available to the Bastianos, so I think that it must be included. One thing that I have not found is the CIA involvement at this time. I have often wondered about this. Michael Erwin - Nov 5, 2006 8:34 pm (#3577 Total: 3598) Vicente Fox is a murderer. Ulises Ruiz is a murderer. They gave the orders; they took eighteen lives. Certainly the official movement rates are very slow and the potential movement rates were much faster (look at the Santa Clara campaign! and that faced resistence, if demoralized resistance). Allowing strategic movement may allow ahistorical strategies, but the Habana Division allows ahistorical resource commitments as well. Neither were impossible. I'd like to see a political expansion (like Nicaragua!) to go with this, even though it would sacrifice the basic game's playability. Santa Clara and Playa Giron alsu could use battle games. Dennis L. Bishop - Nov 5, 2006 9:07 pm (#3578 Total: 3598) Michael, No arguments from me on any of your suggestions. I might add that I have not found why the Spanish and later Bastiano leadership didn't hold out longer. Santiago figured prominently in both campaigns while Habana held large formations defending it against nothing. Randy Lein - Nov 7, 2006 9:58 pm (#3581 Total: 3594) For our full line of games visit us at http://mysite.verizon.net/rjlein/khyberpass/ Cuban Revolution Stefan, First I want to thank you for your in depth analysis of Cuban Revolution and for bringing these issues to our attention. I realize that there are discrepancies between your copy of CR and the currently released version. The upgrades to CR where only graphic improvements and it was not intended to be a "2nd Edition". That kind of language gets very tricky in the world of DTP because we only print 50 copies at a time and CR may have had as many as 6 print runs since it was released. There may have been subtle changes made starting with any of the 6 print runs and I would have no idea what run your game came from. Until recently I was not in charge of printing the game components and the files that I was given were what I assumed to be the most current. Since you have a version that lists the BRAC units turn of entry and the current game does not, this leads me to believe that I have an older version on file. I made some design decisions while making the map. The roads have no affect on play so I tried to keep them from standing out too much but thought it looked better with them than without. In hindsight I should have made the Railroad more prominent. The general consensus was that the mountains provinces are more clearly defined on this map. As for the reinforcement schedule notation being removed from the new map that was intentional. While it is more convenient to have it there it also gives your opponent information that you would just as soon he not know. It's just one of my pet peeves in any game where your opponent knows when your units are scheduled to arrive and plans accordingly when in reality they would have very little information of that nature. So with that said let's see if I have all the errata you have pointed out so I can include it on our website and email it to anyone who has purchased the game so far. 1. BRAC unit should be listed on the Order of Appearance card as JUNE 1958. 2. The SFNE Column should be listed on the Order of Appearance card as entering with the other SNFE Columns. 3. Game Turn 10 should include "November 1958" for the optional Batista reinforcement in section 8.0 4. CAMAGUEY, should be noted as a non- playable area. 5. A note should be made that there are 3 counters that do NOT have a unit designation are simply "extra" units to replace a lost ones. Again, let me thank you for taking the time to point out these issues and for your interest in this game. Randy Lein - KPG Dennis L. Bishop - Nov 11, 2006 7:02 pm (#3599 Total: 3601) Che In One Stefan, Remember that Andrew P. accepted the design credits. I only developed his idea and added the historical units. Without working out the statistics for the situation as I don't know what Che opposes, I assume a policia unit, and I have two columnas to sluff off, I would suppose that my chances of victory to be 75% as two lesser columnas might be sacrificed at lower odds, and the Che column is a killer. There is about a 50% chance that the Bastiano player will kill the lesser columns, a 50% that there will be an exchange, and a 33% chance that Che might be eliminated, but that is a gamble. So, Che protected by two columna has a 42% chance of winning the game should the die rolls go badly. When we play tested the game, I used this in an all or nothing bid to win. It works about 50% of the times. Dennis L. Bishop - Nov 11, 2006 7:15 pm (#3600 Total: 3601) Two Questions Stefan, 1. The armored train is not immune to guerrilla units in the areas it moves. I am not sure what in the rules leads you to believe this. Any guerrilla columna may interdict it in any province where they are located that contains a railroad. Historically, the train was ambushed outside of Santiago. 2. Guerrilla units arrive at base areas that are free of Bastiano units and are occupied by Guerrillas. It is in this situation one realizes the significant role of Che's columna as a "fire brigade."