Chris Fawcett - Sep 14, 2005 2:57 pm (#203 Total: 206) "Yes, well that's the sort of blinkered, philistine pig-ignorance I've come to expect from you non-creative garbage." - Mr. Dibble, of Ironside & Malone Operation Kadesh Clarifications Paul, I was reading through the OK rules prior to my first run-through, and I came up with the following questions/issues: #1 - Rules 13.1 and 14.3.1 make reference to September 1 and September 2 game turns, but the game turn track starts with the September 3 turn. Also, in 13.1 there is a reference to a November 22nd turn, and the turn track ends with the November 21st turn. What gives? #2 - Rule 13.2.2 "The Negev" is a setup area for the Israelis, but it is not defined in any way in game terms. Should it read "Anywhere in Israel on the Sinai map, on or south/southwest of hex 19.20," or is "Anywhere in Israel on the Sinai map" more what you had in mind? #3 - Rule 13.3.2 "1 Armd Brig" should read "1 Armd Bn," correct? This is the M-4 piece, not the 1/1 JS-3 piece. #4 - Rule 2.0 states that Leg units have their movement ratings printed in black, but they are in fact printed in white. #5 - As I read it, the Note for Rule 4.1 is inconsistent with Rules 14.2.1, 14.3.2, 15.1, and 15.2. 4.1 reads: "Some chits, such as 'No Event,' require that no action is taken and are immediately discarded if drawn." If No Event chits are immediately discarded when drawn, how can the Arab and Allied players start any scenarios with them in their hands? #6 - This is more of a game design question than a rules question. Why did you rate the British Hunter air unit a 1-2 and the Israeli Vatour air unit a 2-2? The Hunter was a superior fighter to the Vatour, and doesn't deserve to have an air-to-air rating equivalent to obsolete propeller-driven fighters. I'd rate it a 2-2 (though compared to the prop-jobs, I'd keep the Vatour a 2-2 as well.) Look forward to your reply. Paul Rohrbaugh - Sep 14, 2005 6:11 pm (#205 Total: 206) Basta imparare, comincia a morire! You'll have to wait until Friday (at the earliest) for definitive replies as I'm out of town and don't have the playtest version in front of me. I'm also hoping the published version will be waiting for me upon my return on Friday. I'll venture some replies now to get you going... #1 - Rules 13.1 and 14.3.1 make reference to September 1 and September 2 game turns, but the game turn track starts with the September 3 turn. Also, in 13.1 there is a reference to a November 22nd turn, and the turn track ends with the November 21st turn. What gives? I hope there is more that you've missed, as the Turn Record Chart is to start some days before the historical war-start date to give players time to play their chits. I'll have to compare the notes and what is published to verify what is up here, if anything. The reference to November 22nd may be typo. #2 - Rule 13.2.2 "The Negev" is a setup area for the Israelis, but it is not defined in any way in game terms. Should it read "Anywhere in Israel on the Sinai map, on or south/southwest of hex 19.20," or is "Anywhere in Israel on the Sinai map" more what you had in mind? This was addressed in the pre-publication editing somehow, but I don't recall exactly at the moment. There should be a definition somewhere or something on the map. Again, let me check my notes. The Negev is that part of Israel on the Sinai map BTW. #3 - Rule 13.3.2 "1 Armd Brig" should read "1 Armd Bn," correct? This is the M-4 piece, not the 1/1 JS-3 piece. No, I believe it is an Israeli brigade. I'll verify this when I get the game in front of me. #4 - Rule 2.0 states that Leg units have their movement ratings printed in black, but they are in fact printed in white. We'll flog the proofreader 10 lashes for this. #5 - As I read it, the Note for Rule 4.1 is inconsistent with Rules 14.2.1, 14.3.2, 15.1, and 15.2. 4.1 reads: "Some chits, such as 'No Event,' require that no action is taken and are immediately discarded if drawn." If No Event chits are immediately discarded when drawn, how can the Arab and Allied players start any scenarios with them in their hands? This is war. They have to deal with it. #6 - This is more of a game design question than a rules question. Why did you rate the British Hunter air unit a 1-2 and the Israeli Vatour air unit a 2-2? The Hunter was a superior fighter to the Vatour, and doesn't deserve to have an air-to-air rating equivalent to obsolete propeller-driven fighters. I'd rate it a 2-2 (though compared to the prop-jobs, I'd keep the Vatour a 2-2 as well.) I've factored in the "rules of engagement" for the Allied air units, that were much more restrictive than those of the Israelis. Sounds a bit like what would happen in Vietnam in about 10 years, doesn't it? Cheers, and thanks for your patience until I get definitive answers for you. Chris Fawcett - Sep 15, 2005 10:00 am (#206 Total: 206) "Yes, well that's the sort of blinkered, philistine pig-ignorance I've come to expect from you non-creative garbage." - Mr. Dibble, of Ironside & Malone >the Turn Record Chart is to start some days before the historical war-start date to give players time to play their chits Indeed I recognized this right away, but if this is an error, then it means that there are apparently two additional weekly turns available (Sep 1 & 2) than what is being presented by the publication version. >The Negev is that part of Israel on the Sinai map BTW. Actually, the Negev is in the lower third of Israel, and doesn't really extend to the entire area of Israel presented on the Sinai map. I know where the Negev is, but that's too vague a reference for a game's setup instructions. >No, I believe it is an Israeli brigade. It shouldn't be, because we're talking about the Egyptian setup instructions. There are three Egyptian armor units with a "1" designation. Only two are brigades and they are clearly part of the reserves positioned west of the canal. The only other "1st Armored" anything is a battalion sized M-4 unit. I'm clarifying that this is the intended unit. If No Event chits are immediately discarded when drawn, how can the Arab and Allied players start any scenarios with them in their hands? >This is war. They have to deal with it. I'm sorry, Paul, but this answer doesn't help. If No Event chits cannot be kept in the players' hands, then how can they start the game with them? I suppose my question is this: are the setup instructions supposed to represent exceptions to the rule, or am I misreading the rule? Another question regarding the British OB. The 16th Para Brigade sent all of its battalions to Port Said, but only the 3rd battalion is in the game. Did the 1st & 2nd battaltions (which came ashore amphibiously) get inadvertantly left out? I ask because leaving a unit out that did participate, while including others which did not participate seems a little odd (the French armd unit in particular). Anyway, I am greatly looking forward to playing another one of your fine games, Paul. This is a subject of which I have entertained a LOT of interest in the past few months, so I am looking at this game through a microscope. I want it to be fun and I anticipate that it will be so. So please forgive the nitpicking, if it is seen as such. I'm just an avid fan of the subject and of the designer. Paul Rohrbaugh - Sep 15, 2005 6:02 pm (#209 Total: 212) Basta imparare, comincia a morire! More definitive Q&A OK, I got home earlier and got out the file with the playtested prototype and notes. >#1 - Rules 13.1 and 14.3.1 make reference to September 1 and September 2 game turns, but the game turn track starts with the September 3 turn. Also, in 13.1 there is a reference to a November 22nd turn, and the turn track ends with the November 21st turn. What gives? The original had "Sept. 1" and "Sept. 2" turns. Note that these represent weeks (not days, 2.6). This was changed, for the better to 3 and 4 on the TRC, but apparently the rules reference in the set up fell through the cracks. No biggie. Change it read Sept. 3. We are NOT missing any turns (Phew!). >#2 - Rule 13.2.2 "The Negev" is a setup area for the Israelis, but it is not defined in any way in game terms. Should it read "Anywhere in Israel on the Sinai map, on or south/southwest of hex 19.20," or is "Anywhere in Israel on the Sinai map" more what you had in mind? Should read "anywhere in Israel." My bad on the geography reference. >#3 - Rule 13.3.2 "1 Armd Brig" should read "1 Armd Bn," correct? This is the M-4 piece, not the 1/1 JS-3 piece. Yes, it is indeed the 1 Armd Bn (not brigade). A typo slipped into the Event Chit table. >#4 - Rule 2.0 states that Leg units have their movement ratings printed in black, but they are in fact printed in white. Again, we'll track down the proofreader and flog him. His Assyrian Majesty isn't amused by these sorts of things..... >#5 - As I read it, the Note for Rule 4.1 is inconsistent with Rules 14.2.1, 14.3.2, 15.1, and 15.2. 4.1 reads: "Some chits, such as 'No Event,' require that no action is taken and are immediately discarded if drawn." If No Event chits are immediately discarded when drawn, how can the Arab and Allied players start any scenarios with them in their hands? There is no inconsistency. The set-up instructions are correct. Remember that some of the chits are chosen face-up, the others are taken at random. If some of those randomly selected chits end up being No Event, so be it. Your opponent will find out how good a bluffer you are.... >#6 - This is more of a game design question than a rules question. Why did you rate the British Hunter air unit a 1-2 and the Israeli Vatour air unit a 2-2? The Hunter was a superior fighter to the Vatour, and doesn't deserve to have an air-to-air rating equivalent to obsolete propeller-driven fighters. I'd rate it a 2-2 (though compared to the prop-jobs, I'd keep the Vatour a 2-2 as well.) Again, this is a design technique/decision to keep things simple and not have some complicated, multi-paragraph "rules of engagement" limitations. It works in playtesting. BTW, I sort of liken the Egyptian/Arab air units, after the Europeans show up, are kind of like the line from "Man of La Mancha." It doesn't matter whether the pitcher hits the stone, or the stone hits the pitcher. Its going to be bad for the pitcher.... >Another question regarding the British OB. The 16th Para Brigade sent all of its battalions to Port Said, but only the 3rd battalion is in the game. Did the 1st & 2nd battaltions (which came ashore amphibiously) get inadvertantly left out? I ask because leaving a unit out that did participate, while including others which did not participate seems a little odd (the French armd unit in particular). Not all of the Allied units are depicted. This is due to the street-to-street, house-to-house fighting that sprang up in Suez, as well as more "insurgent level fighting" that would've tied up the Europeans should the war have dragged-on longer than it did. Again, keeping it simple by only giving the Allies a limited number of units that could be used. >Anyway, I am greatly looking forward to playing another one of your fine games, Paul. This is a subject of which I have entertained a LOT of interest in the past few months, so I am looking at this game through a microscope. I want it to be fun and I anticipate that it will be so. Great, Chris! I sure hope you enjoy the game and look forward to seeing/hearing from you. BTW, I have another game using this design on the '67 Arab-Israeli war. It has more counters and diplomatic options, will use cards instead of chits, has a small bonus minigame on the battle from the war, and was actually completed first, before Operation Kadesh. Schutze Games has it for the Professional Line (die cut counters). If you like OK, I think you'll like Six Days War. Cheers, and thanks!!!!!