Norbert Moehring - Mar 27, 2006 8:01 am (#4265 Total: 4302) www.g-h-s.org Solferino Riccardo, Luc - thanks a lot for your answers. Here are some new ones... 1) Does an out of command unit suffer the -1 drm for rally only or for all morale checks (i.e. due to a T combat result)? 2) Per 9.2 out of command units which were in EZOC may disengage or take part of a coordinated attack. It is correct that they also simply stay in place and do nothing or may they attack on their own? 3) How could an enemy unit be adjacent to CiC in the command verification phase (7.2) ? Per 8.4 the CiC is moved immediately to the closest friendly unit if an enemy unit moves adjacent. 4) How is the LOS handled if the target unit is on higher terrain? I played Solferino several times and have two suggestions - I would be glad to hear some opinions. a) As far as I know cavalry charges lost its power against infantry during the second half of the 19th century. So I was surprised that many cavalry units as strong as or even stronger as an infantry brigade. This seems odd to me. What's about halving the combat strength in a combat with infantry units and the printed strength is only used for combat against cavalry? b) I found the city fighting quite brutal. The attacking forces are divided by three, no flank hexes, no retreats and the defender gets a +1 drm for morale checks. Villages are similar strong. IMO you could downgrade cities to protection level 2 and units in villages have normal facing. That makes them still a formidable defense position but there is no Stalingrad anymore. Btw, I saw the Q&A on Grognard. Please note that the most important clarification is missed: the unit's morale value is also a drm for morale checks. (see msg 4192 for all answers) lucolivier - Mar 30, 2006 12:50 pm (#4272 Total: 4302) Grand Maitre de l'Academie du Wargame Hi, Here the answers. 1) Does an out of command unit suffer the -1 drm for rally only or for all morale checks (i.e. due to a T combat result)? For all morale checks. 2) Per 9.2 out of command units which were in EZOC may disengage or take part of a coordinated attack. It is correct that they also simply stay in place and do nothing or may they attack on their own? They may attack on their own or do nothing, yes. 3) How could an enemy unit be adjacent to CiC in the command verification phase (7.2) ? Per 8.4 the CiC is moved immediately to the closest friendly unit if an enemy unit moves adjacent. You're right, say 8.4 is predominant. 4) How is the LOS handled if the target unit is on higher terrain? you have to follow the slope without blocking hexs. a) As far as I know cavalry charges lost its power against infantry during the second half of the 19th century. So I was surprised that many cavalry units as strong as or even stronger as an infantry brigade. This seems odd to me. What's about halving the combat strength in a combat with infantry units and the printed strength is only used for combat against cavalry? Yes why not, but with the defensive fire, usually the cav is less efficient. b) I found the city fighting quite brutal. The attacking forces are divided by three, no flank hexes, no retreats and the defender gets a +1 drm for morale checks. Villages are similar strong. IMO you could downgrade cities to protection level 2 and units in villages have normal facing. That makes them still a formidable defense position but there is no Stalingrad anymore. Why not, ok for villages. Riccardo your opinion ?? Also for cav strength, I let Riccardo explains. Thanks for the feedback and the questions. Riccardo Rinaldi - Mar 30, 2006 3:42 pm (#4273 Total: 4302) Proud AC Mantova season ticket holder First of all, Norbert, let me apologize for not coming back to you before this - a rough week at the office. Ahem. I personally would prefer to keep the rules as written, with villages having all around facing. They were usually easy to fortify and turn into strongholds. This is especially true of the major "cities" (? towns is more like it) like Castiglione, cavriana, Medole, Pozzolengo, etc., AND Solferino. Solferino is a good example of a small town (true, in a most advantageous position for the defender) turned into a sort of a fortress. The French were repulsed several times and turned to bombarding it for several hours before taking it by storm. But also other small cluster of houses could be held for quite a while by detachments, like Barche, Pozzo Catena, Grole, etc. Those episodes actually forced us to put detachments into the game! We shall come back on that when we playtest Magenta, where the fighting was street by street and hand-to-hand. We have several other examples, like Boffalora and Melegnano, to substantiate that. But like I said I am curious to see how things turn out with the next game. As to cavalry charges, I will look up the OoB during the weekend - forgive me for not doing that now. But there were several examples of cavalry charges, which actually forced the Austrians to form squares in many engagements of the campaign - the Piedmontese were rather successful at Montebello, and there were many at Solferino (by the French) as well. The charge was used as much as dilatory tactics - in that it forced the defender to change formation - as to inflict real damage. I hope this helps for now. Ciao, Riccardo Norbert Moehring - Mar 31, 2006 5:14 am (#4274 Total: 4302) www.g-h-s.org Solferino Luc & Riccardo, thanks again for your nice reply. My suggestions about changing the rules for cavalry and cities/villages are only ideas. Nevertheless I found the original rules not felicitous: @halving cavalry strength: I don't know much about the mentioned charges but please note that halving the cavalry strength means nothing more than annul the doubling before (see OOB strength). And I still don't see any reason for doubling them. Please also note that a cavalry division causes as much "real damage" than an infantry division (which has twice as much men and far more fire power). @ downgrade cities/villages: Let's have an example. Assume one Austrian brigade (5 SP) stacked with an artillery unit (3 SP) defends a cities against three French brigades (all of 6 SP) and two artillery units (5 SP each). MacMahon leads the assault personally. First barrage: 5 SP divided by 3 (protection level) is 1 (rounded down). Now there is a 50% chance (+1 drm for being adjacent) for a T result. Since they are two rolls assume one hits. Now the Austrian checks morale: d6 + 2 (unit's morale) + 1 (protection level > 1). So there is only a 33% change of missing. Assume the check is successful (or the barrage fire misses or no artillery is present). The coordination check is successful (67% change) – if not the attack will fail on all accounts. Now the defender fire: 10 SP gives a +2 drm for being beyond the 8 column and very good chance for a D+1 result (83%) and so one French brigade is repulsed with heavy losses. Then the French assault: 12 SP divided by 3 is 4 (and +2 drm for MacMahon). This give a good but not a certain D result (66%) otherwise a T (see above). So the result of a three times superior attacker IN ONE HOUR is PERHAPS that one defender unit is disrupted. Not much. Next turn… Let us assume the Austrian barrage misses or other units attacks and the next French barrage disrupts the other defender unit. (The defender are a disrupted 2 SP infantry brigade and a disrupted 1 SP artillery). The defender fire gives a 50% T result, 33% D result and 17% a miss. Assume it was a miss the second assault rolls on: 18 SPs divided by 3 is 9. Including the leader there is a +3 drm and a good change for a D+1 result (67%) and a certain D. Even a D+1 result does not eliminate both defender but only one (probably the artillery which has only 1 step and so wasting one step loss). So the result of TWO HOURS is that there is still a disrupted infantry brigade IF ALL DIE ROLLS ARE IN FAVOUR OF THE ATTACKER. It needs another turn to conquer the city. Please note: if only one coordination check failed probably all three brigades are disrupted. And what if there was a leader in the hex and a morale check fails only on a 1 for the defender? What if they are supporting Austrian units adjacent the city which had to attacked too (because the are in ZOC) or which could relieve the defender in the city? I claim that the city never falls except if isolating them which is a long process. To conclude: There are many villages on the map and the cities are important for victory conditions. Every Austrian player manned them and so towns become really little fortresses. Ah, one question: It is correct that an attacker MUST attack if the coordination check failed or may he recall the troops? lucolivier - Mar 31, 2006 12:28 pm (#4276 Total: 4302) Grand Maitre de l'Academie du Wargame Hi, It is correct that an attacker MUST attack if the coordination check failed or may he recall the troops? He has to attack with each. Riccardo Rinaldi - Apr 1, 2006 11:02 am (#4278 Total: 4302) Proud AC Mantova season ticket holder Hi Norbert, I appreciate your comments. The cavalry is indeed very strong in our game, but brittle as well - it is automatically demoralized after all charges, independently of the combat result. So it will take some time before it rallies (remember the penalties of rheat and step loss) and can attack again. I would tend to believe that it does still portray correctly the threat it posed on the battlefield. Very powerful, but used with caution. I think that halving their strenght as you suggest makes them too weak. The cities - they are indeed a sort of strongholds. After Solferino was invested the fight went on for several hours, and the town was taken only after noon. The French took Magenta by storm and had to resort to street fighting. Same at Melegnano. Remember that the resiliency of defenders decreases considerably once they have taken a step loss or if their formation becomes demoralized. Basically what you are saying is that you have to hammer at them. That is correct, it is what happened historically. That said, I am making no claim to perfection... feel free to test your variants, and by all means let us know. I am really interested. Luc, I think Norbert would make an ideal playtester for Magenta... what do you think? Ciao & thanks for your observations. It's good to see interest in the game, and constructive criticism is always very welcome. Riccardo Norbert Moehring - Apr 2, 2006 11:02 am (#4284 Total: 4302) www.g-h-s.org Solferino Luc & Riccardo, thanks a lot for your offer but I have to refuse: I have only Moltke’s and Willy’s books about the Italian Campaign so I did not know much about Magenta. I have many sources about Königgrätz so I offer my help if you design a game about it. One question about towns: It is correct that cavalry also benefits from occupying a town (i.e. the strength of an infantry attacking a cavalry unit in a village is also divided by two?) Riccardo Rinaldi - Apr 2, 2006 11:39 am (#4285 Total: 4302) Proud AC Mantova season ticket holder Norbert, if that is your only reason to decline I personally do not care what experience you have on the war, and I think Luc and Phillip will agree. As to the cavalry defending in a town - I'll have to look it up. If it is, we will have to correct that. Norbert Moehring - Apr 3, 2006 10:43 am (#4296 Total: 4302) www.g-h-s.org Solferino - what else? As to the cavalry defending in a town - I'll have to look it up. If it is, we will have to correct that I propose that cavalry may not charge AND counter-charge in cities, villages, clear level 3 & 4 terrain, farmland, woods, across stream, canal, treeline (As far as I know only the plain of Medole was suitable for cavalry so actual charges into clear level 2 should also not allowed). After testing my new suggestions for towns are: Cities are downgraded to level 2 but benefits from an additional -1 column shift. Villages retain the all faces ZOC, the no retreat option and a +1 drm for all morale checks but are downgraded to level 1 but benefits also from a -1 column shift. One question about the morale checks due to combat. Assume an corps is OOC and its actication marker has not drawn. Now an unit from this corps suffer an T result and it gets a -1 drm for being OOC. The same situation but the activation marker has been drawn and the commander passes its activation check. Now the unit does not get a -1 drm, correct? (I puzzle about the reason for this differentiation) @playtesting: I'll e-mail you in the next time. Norbert Moehring - Apr 3, 2006 3:39 pm (#4297 Total: 4302) www.g-h-s.org More questions and needed clarifications for Solferino: a) If a unit attacks an enemy on a lower terrain the attacker fires with a +1 column shift for being on the higher terrain according to the charts & tables. But gets the defensive fire a -1 column shift for being on a lower terrain? b) I assume a unit’s morale rating is always the PRINTED step value (because step losses are already negative drm for morale checks), correct? c) It is correct that the game lasts at maximum only to the very beginning of the 14th turn? On the 13th turn there is always heat (see 5pm with no chance of normal weather) which means that there is always +1 drm at the weather phase of the 6 pm turn. And this means an automatically thunderstorm a.k.a the game ends immediately - no movement, no combat for the 14th turn... d) I assume that Franz Josef (if on map) begins with the inertia check, correct? e) What is the terrain level of the cities? The charts says "other terrain" but all cities have the same colour on the map. The level is important for entering the hex without a road (level changing = +1 MP). I assume Medole and Guidizollo are at level 0, Pozzolengo at level 1 and Lonato is certainly level 3. But what’s about the both Castiglione hexes and Cavriana? f) How could an aide-de-camp be replaced? The counter is already on the reverse side... (Why simply adding that aide-de-camp never die?) g) Detached cavalry and army units check command if activated at the CiC or at any HQ. If they are out of command range of the CiC and any HQ how do they move? Must they move towards the nearest HQ/CiC or towards ANY HQ/CiC? Luc & Riccardo, thanks a lot for your help! lucolivier - Apr 6, 2006 2:47 pm (#4302 Total: 4302) Grand Maitre de l'Academie du Wargame HI, The answers : a) If a unit attacks an enemy on a lower terrain the attacker fires with a +1 column shift for being on the higher terrain according to the charts & tables. But gets the defensive fire a -1 column shift for being on a lower terrain? Yes. b) I assume a unit’s morale rating is always the PRINTED step value (because step losses are already negative drm for morale checks), correct? Yes. c) It is correct that the game lasts at maximum only to the very beginning of the 14th turn? On the 13th turn there is always heat (see 5pm with no chance of normal weather) which means that there is always +1 drm at the weather phase of the 6 pm turn. And this means an automatically thunderstorm a.k.a the game ends immediately - no movement, no combat for the 14th turn... Yes, you're right... d) I assume that Franz Josef (if on map) begins with the inertia check, correct? Yes. e) What is the terrain level of the cities? The charts says "other terrain" but all cities have the same colour on the map. The level is important for entering the hex without a road (level changing = +1 MP). I assume Medole and Guidizollo are at level 0, Pozzolengo at level 1 and Lonato is certainly level 3. But what’s about the both Castiglione hexes and Cavriana? Castiglione 1620 is level 2 and 1720 is level 1 and Cavriana is level 2. f) How could an aide-de-camp be replaced? The counter is already on the reverse side... (Why simply adding that aide-de-camp never die?) Replace the counter by the same counter . g) Detached cavalry and army units check command if activated at the CiC or at any HQ. If they are out of command range of the CiC and any HQ how do they move? Must they move towards the nearest HQ/CiC or towards ANY HQ/CiC? Oups you have some tricky questions... I would say towards ANY HQ/CiC