************ Topic 43 Mon Sep 16, 1991 DIPLOMACY-1 at 20:27 EDT Sub: The Gamers Online support and discussion of products from The Gamers, Inc. 197 new messages. ************ Games RoundTable Category 4, Topic 43 Sent on 5/13/1995 at 7:40p Dean, I like your suggestions for the German mobile supply counters. We are going to give them a try. We are also going to allow the 11th Panzer to arrive on turn 3 or later for 1 VP. The 2 veteran players are playing the Allies. EatG air rules. There are 4 of us playing the campaign game. # of us played most of the scenarios before we started the big one. We just picked the game up on turn 19 after the Soviets went back to back and creamed the Axis air force on the ground. We had done a PUOSU on turn 18 and knocked down all but 1 Hungarian fighter. Going 1st on turn 19 allowed us 2 phases of airbase bombing and the 50% chance is deadly. It did not hurt that my troops killed a bunch more of his infantry and pushed him out of the hills south of Voroshilovgrad. Destroying planes on the ground is too easy. Getting the AB result is ok but making it a 50% no matter what plane is strafing the airfiled is too strong. Perhaps some kind of table based on the bombers strengths. They hated it when my long range 5's and 2's did the damage. Combine this with the airbases losing levels when they are located in black or red cities means the airbases never come back. Scott suggested putting step loss markers under the airbase and these come off by spending the 2T but there is not die roll. Repairing an airbase is much easier then building one, especially in a city where you already have the land. The other galling thing is the first turn after no flight so that whoever goes first gets to roam around because the other play can not put up his CAP. This "bone" has been mentioned by some on the Internet as something they do not like and we have to disagree. So we picked up EatG and we play Ardennes with 4 players. Any chance to see the optional air rules for Tunisia? How about a summary right here? Thanks, Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 276 Sun May 14, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 13:10 EDT Perry & Bruce: Air bases is where aircraft die...that is the way it should be. It is much easier to destroy air units at there bases than in the air (that is the hardest place to kill an airplane). Air initiative is _part_ of having initiative...the fact is, the initiative side sent out strikes while the non-initiative side was thinking seriously about sending on its CAP...Naw, the pilot wants to have another cup of coffee... GS rating is taken into account by the table giving the airbase hit in the first place...there is no need to double penalize weak aircraft...yes, I know you've only got a 10% chance (to throw out numbers...) of getting a hit on the base, but after you do manage to get it, we're going to make sure you can't kill air units very well even then...no, that is too much. Summary of Optional rules (this is a summary, please don't make me type in all the details, exceptions, and what not): 1) Combined Arms: Defending armor, mech and AT can negate the full x2 attacking benefits of enemy armor. There is an option to allow x1.5 for those who feel changing x2 to x1 is too much. 2) AT units are x2 in defense when confronted by exclusively yellow armor units (attackers w/o combined arms). 3) A rule covering effects of hard targets, exposed targets, tank busters, etc. for the Barrage Table. 4) A rule giving Recon units specuial skills: screening overruns, withdrawal from combat, better ability at conducting recons. 5) A rule making hedgehogs harder to destroy. 6) A rule for those who can't help but blow away their attack target with a barrage before they are to attack the hex on the ground. 7) Air rules consisting of: a) No PUSU. b) Active air unit stacking. c) 3 air unit (not 2) movement. d) a mildly different Air to Air combat table (less chance of kills for both ends of the table plus 6-8 as _Both_ abort. e) DG effects on air units. f) Tight air interception limits g) A limitation on the number of air units in an air base hex which can defend when a raid comes in. h) Protected air units: a number of air units at a base (equal to the base level) can be immune from strikes hitting the base (properly dispersed, there can be no damage from anti-base strikes). i) Air unit replacements--you can use EQ repls to rebuild air units. j) Serious Interdiction: The ability (with decent air units) to really interdict a hex (as opposed to the flyweight version currently in the main rules). 8) A rule making battalion internal stocks replenishment cost 2T. 9) A rule covering anti-ship barrages. 10) A rule allowing players a numbe of points with which to affect the initiative dice roll. Whew... Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 277 Sun May 14, 1995 K.TURNER11 at 19:01 EDT Dean, Any OFFICIAL word about the map to 'In Their Quiet Fields'. Hope I didn't hammer you guys too hard, but whats the story behind it? Pushing the envelope a little too far? Any one else think it might be a little toooo much? Any suggestion of reprinting a muted version, somewhat along the lines of 'Thunder at the Cross Roads'? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 278 Sun May 14, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 21:13 EDT Mr. Turner, Yes, some guys don't like it...others have told me they love it (see extended discussion two months ago.) I happen to like it. What "official" word are you looking for? No, there will not be a reprint. Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 280 Mon May 15, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 08:20 EDT Perry: Scott let the Soviet airforce hit the Luftwaffe on the ground???!!! Tell him the fat guy wants to see him in Berlin, NOW! The pre-order mailing for the rest of 95 will be going out about the time we get back from Origins. Before I forget, I'm coming up on the time when I have to put together the candidates for the 1995 Countersheet (artwork due in August)...please make your suggestions now (don't worry Perry, Sill's Division is #1 on the list:) Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 281 Mon May 15, 1995 J.KINCAID1 [John] at 22:58 EDT ======= To: THE-GAMERS ======= > Before I forget, I'm coming up on the time when I have to put together > the candidates for the 1995 Countersheet (artwork due in > August)...please make your suggestions now (don't worry Perry, Sill's > Division is #1 on the list:) How about some break down counters for CWB cav & inf for use as scouts or recon units etc. Really becomes a fun option in blind G.M. games. By the way did I tell you that the "In There Quiet"(loud)"Fields" and "April's Harvest" Aide De Camp Modules were ready! John ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 282 Mon May 15, 1995 M.LOCHTEFEL1 at 23:21 EDT Dean I got my Origins pre-reg book today. I was disappointed to only see two events for your games. I heard that you guys will have your own room at the con. Two questions: 1) Will there be other "unofficial" events at Origins that you cannot pre-reg for?, and 2) What's your setup at Origins? Mike L ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 283 Tue May 16, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 10:47 EDT John: You'll get those counters only if you provide rules for their use.... Mike L.: There should be three game events and the seminar (game ones are GB, Tunisia, and Yom Kippur). The game room was mentioned in passing in the book, but some details remain to be worked out. I'm not sure what you want to know about our "set up" for the con...I'd be happy to tell you, but don't really know what you want. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 284 Tue May 16, 1995 J.STORMES1 [James] at 12:33 EDT Dean, I have a few minor questions that have come up in play: ARDENNES: The US cannot attempt to blow a bridge if (a) any German combat unit or open Greif team is adjacent, (b) it is German-built,or (c) Germans were the last to cross it. The "same" conditions apply to US attempts to repair a bridge. It seems to me that only condition (a) can apply to an attempt to repair a blown bridge, but my opponent has questioned my interpretation. Please clarify. ENEMY AT THE GATES: I have an Inf unit (attack-capable) in Strat Move mode and an Arty unit (NOT attack-capable), NOT in Strat Move mode, in the same hex, NOT adjacent to any enemy units. The rules appear to require me to put the attack-capable Inf unit on top of the Arty unit, and the Strat Move marker on top of the Inf unit, but then the Arty unit is also under the Strat Move marker. If I place the Arty unit on top, it obscures the presence of an attack- capable unit in the hex. How should I arrange this stack? What units and/or markers must I reveal to my (email) opponent? ENEMY AT THE GATES: Can a HQ draw supply from an organic truck to throw to a unit of the same formation as the organic truck, in cases where the unit is too far from the organic truck to draw the supply directly from the truck? Thanks, James ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 285 Tue May 16, 1995 K.TURNER11 at 20:06 EDT Dean, Thanks for the answer on the map. IMHO please mute the colors for any future volumes, and I sure would like to see ITQF 3rd edition. Thanks Kirk Turner ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 286 Tue May 16, 1995 P.PERLA at 20:30 EDT Somewhere up topic someone mentioned Aide De Camp. Because I refuse to use such antiquated technology and arcane interfaces as found in Intel-standard PCs, I have not looked at AdC. Every so often, I ask if anyone has ever tried running it on a REAL computer (a MAC) undedr soft DOS/WinDoze. So, I ask again. ANy adventurous souls out there? Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 287 Tue May 16, 1995 J.KINCAID1 [John] at 21:49 EDT ======= To: THE-GAMERS ======= > John: You'll get those counters only if you provide rules for their > use.... Is this one of those "put up or shut up" offers ! I will luck for my notes. John ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 288 Tue May 16, 1995 F.HOLLANDER [fth] at 22:36 EDT Peter, If arcane interfaces bother you so much, ADC is not likely to please you no matter what kind of window you run it in. fth ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 289 Wed May 17, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 00:35 EDT Peter - IBM PC's kick MAC butt. Macs are only contenders in this race. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 290 Wed May 17, 1995 R.OCONNOR6 [Bob O] at 00:50 EDT Oh no, lets not start the PC wars here now. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 291 Wed May 17, 1995 P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog] at 01:06 EDT Dean, Thanks so much for Sill's "lost" division. I am sure you noticed that I stopped mentioning it in hope that the "vacuum" might get you to include them. :) Can you think about some GD'40 French H-39's w/ the model 1917 gun that they actually had? I know that only makes it worse for them but Doughty's book is real clear on this point. While testing GD'41, Wig and I found that arty tube size markers are great for tracking who has shot and can also be used under the zone markers so you know the tube size. Simple markers w/ 76mm, 105mm, ... On future OCS games, can you make the unit designation in a larger font? Shades of Dave Woods but I had to magic marker all the EatG division markers so that we can easily see what unit they represent. I second John's suggestion re cav scout breakdowns. If the pre-order goes out after Origins, how can I pre-order BW and Tunisia? Scott's handling of the Axis airforce was so bad that he would never be seen after his trip to Berlin. No wonders he wants to change the OCS so that he is only in the role of the ground commander and the air force is very abstract. :) Are you going to have a gaming room for your products? I am flying to Wig- land so often that I will have enough miles for Philly and Homer this year. I want to play your stuff all the time, not like my experience in San Diego (Jose). Afrika-I am reading von Luck's Panzer Commander and on page 111 he quotes Everth. "The Qattara Depression is impassable. Only in the dry season is there a little track which can be used by light vehicles. We have to watch out there, in case Tommy tries to surprise us with his LRDG." This is when von Luck first arrived to take over the German recce unit at Siwa. So maybe I need a house rule before I play Afrika. I will never forget the game where Scott moved much of the AK thru the depression and cut of my Alamein line. How embarassing for me. Last but not least, Luis Calcada from Portugal posted on the Internet about contour line problems in Hunters. Guess what, he is right. Look at the 40m line as it extends south along the Tavronitis River bed. It becomes a 60m line. In fact, all the labels on the lines around xx.05 to the west of the riverbed and some to the east are offset by 20m. Also the label on the top level around hex B51.01 s/b 160m. I should have looked more closely at the map last September. :) Jim, The HQ and organic truck one is good. We use either KTX markers or upside down railhead markers between the strat move units and the arty. My opponent did the trick with DG units and snuck in a stud in his reserve phase. I lost a precious Soviet 5 mech brigade in the exploit phase. Peter, Real computers should have more then 10% of the market!!!!! Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 292 Wed May 17, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 10:23 EDT James: (Easiest one first...) HQs cannot assist units in getting supply out of their organic trucks, it must be direct draw. Assemble your stack with the artillery in the middle...that doesn't follow the letter of the stacking order, but it is the only why you can mechanically keep the artillery from entering Strat Move Mode. When you report this stack to the enemy, you can write out the order correctly "Inf Div in Strat Move Mode with another unit under it which is not in Strat Move Mode" (Above I should have said place the arty on top, not in the middle... ) Ardennes: Physically, you are right (a must apply, but since a German built bridge cannot be blown, there will never be a reason why it could be repaired and one cannot cross a blown bridge...even so, the Germans couldn't have been the last to cross the bridge since that would have kept it from being blown in the first place. (A) is the important one, neither (B) nor (C) can apply to blown bridges. Kirk: I fully intend to "reduce the volume". Thank you for your understanding. I just don't happen to agree with the "maps can't have color" crowd led by the likes of Dave Wood and the long vanished Redmond Simonsen. Perry: "how can I pre-order BW and Tunisia?" There isn't going to be a pre- order for those two games (so as not to kill our Origins sales...nothing is worse than travelling halfway across the country to listen to guy after guy tell us "Well, I'd get one, but I already have one at home..." Good news is we will have a nice discount on all con sales.... H-39's: Perry, tell me again you think it is worth half the repl countersheet (dumping everyone else's suggestions) to rerate a 2-3 tank gun to a 1-3... I _really_ don't think that will be in the interest of the bulk of the players out there. Future OCS games and fonts: Sure, I will do that...just remember the Tunisia counters are already done, so don't ask why I didn't get it done when you see em :) The gaming room is a fully gree go...we got the word from Andon, all is ready, there will be _no_ entry fee (donations for the coffee and donut fund will be welcome) and it looks like 24 hour operations will be ok after all. Contour lines in Hunters: Have a look at the errata from last December, specifically item number 1...actually, it will be in the mag, as it wasn't posted until 20 Dec 94. Afrika: I'd rather have the potential (however limited) of flanking the Alemein line using the roads and tracks in the depression than have the instantly impregnable line at the narrowest part which always comes about and nothing can be done about...makes for a better game. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 293 Wed May 17, 1995 J.MILLEFOGLI at 14:47 EDT I just picked up Yom Kippur & am very interested in playing it (Ardennes proved to be one of the favorites around here last year in terms of replayability, albiet with an optional rule re. German supply units). A question and a comment: Is there any errata yet for Yom Kippur? I remember some questions on CONSIM re. Egyptian bridge placement on the first turn, but have seen nothing else. Secondly, while I love the counter artwork for the game (always a Gamer's strength), IMHO the "dunes" on the map are one of the worst choices for terrain depiction in a long time (various scatalogical analogies have been put forth by those who have seen the map). Since I'm sure many are looking forward to Tunisia, I thought I'd ask if this will be the future standard. I do love the games & I know aesthetics are a personal matter (and I may be percieved as having an axe to grind, since I'm a friend of Joe Youst's, who recently did a map on the same subject for a competitor), but the "look" of the terrain in the Siani seems a better defence against an Egyptian incursion than the IDF at this point. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 294 Wed May 17, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 18:20 EDT Jeff, Actually, the "bridge" thing for YK was just bit of confusion with designer notes than an errata. Each Bridge counter represents two actual bridges, a point not fully clear. The rules are fine as written, however. As for maps, I'll pretend to ignore your ulterior motive.:) YK's map was an attempt by Dean to add some texture to the process. I think the dunes were somewhat unsatisfactory for him, and I know he's always striving to do better. There are no dune features in Tunisia that I remember, just rough and mountain terrain that is similar to the rough feature in YK. Dean can provide more details, I'm sure. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 295 Wed May 17, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 22:45 EDT Sorry had a silly bridge issue regarding YK. It's probably already answered but what the heck. Israeli bridge rules: Say they had a capacity for "2" in addition to a PCB yet the rules allow only one Engineer bridge at a time. How many bridge "units" can the Israeli have in addition to the PCB? I don't have the game yet. A friend of mine is FORCING me to ask you guys. So I'm not to blame for asking. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 296 Wed May 17, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 22:58 EDT That's the bridge confusion, S. Cat. Basically, each Bridge counter represents two actual bridges. Hence, the Israelis can have one bridge counter in place, besides the PCB. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 297 Thu May 18, 1995 R.RUBIN8 [Rich Rubin] at 00:16 EDT See, it WASN'T a silly question (1+1=?) about the YK bridges! Please don't insist that you're really perfect, only my s2bx has that distinction. This was NOT the bridge question discussed on CONSIM... that was whether or not the Egyptian engineers could begin the game emplaced. The answer must be emphatically NO, otherwise, bye-bye to Israeli Hawk, HQ, Engr., etc. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 298 Thu May 18, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 08:55 EDT Rich & Jeff: No, the Egyptian bridges cannot begin the game emplaced. Too bad you feel that way about the dunes...BTW, Tunisia has no dunes. We will be holding another contest (details coming soon after I have full confirmations). I'll announce the winner after a known period (too avoid the "star counters" out there) and I'll only announce the prize as an appropriate prize considering the item in question (to avoid hiding clues in there as well)...those in the know are asked to keep their lips tight... Full details will follow either Friday or Monday, depending on how things break. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 299 Thu May 18, 1995 J.MILLEFOGLI at 12:42 EDT Thanks to both Dave & Dean for their responses. Played the first three turns of YK last night solo (anticipate some ftf time next week); clean, familiar system with some nice new wrinkles & an interesting situation. Great stuff. Also, I apologize for the personal, whiny nature of my comment re. the dunes. All in all, you guys are doing the best graphics work in the hobby (as well as great games), thus my post should be viewed as a response by someone who's been spoiled. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 300 Thu May 18, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 14:29 EDT Jeff: No apologies necessary. I _want_ the gaming consumer to be spoiled! I want him to demand the best and to not put up with the schlock (sp?) manufacturers occasionally pass off as quality product (attended by a whole host of whining excuses). Not only does this help my company (myself included) try to always improve (I long ago decided that the only goal worth pursueing was to better onesself by trying to out do what you did before), but it also takes producers to task for not providing games the customer deserves. Thanks for keeping my feet to the fire... Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 301 Thu May 18, 1995 J.MILLEFOGLI at 23:30 EDT Dean: Thanks for your gracious post. It's great to be able to pick up a boxed game on a series you enjoy (one of several you guys put out), read a half dozen pages of rules (& not feel cheated in terms of detail; pleasantly interesting paradox), and rock & roll. This one's a blast! Up to turn 8 in YK and thinking of an earlier post here by Dave: feeling pretty good as the Israeli player, but there's still an awful lot to do. Looking forward to playing against somebody tougher than myself. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 302 Fri May 19, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 08:51 EDT Jeff: Ahh, the Israeli time crunch...the player think he's hot...he's doin' things...roping the dope as it were...then all of a sudden he looks up and he's got 3-4 turns to put together a major offensive to clear a path to the canal, build a bridge, and attack across into Africa. And, the whole time he knows that if he doesn't pull it off in the time remaining, he is going to lose. Sometime this morning the event I was waiting on to announce our new contest will occur (I really do hate the taste of shoe leather, and after having tasted some I'm going to make sure I can avoid it in the future :) Details to follow... Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 303 Fri May 19, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 17:51 EDT Ok, the event I was looking for happened...and without further ado, here is the new contest: (All of this is carefully presented so as to not give any hints, those in the know, clam up...) The Gamers will be starting something at Origins. (I'm not refering to the Gamers/MIH Game room or the surprise Black Wednesday release you already know about...and Dave & I are not going to start our career as bank robbers, yet:) I will keep watch on this topic and the first person to name the correct event/item will win an appropriate prize (about $50 retail value). Winner will be named 15 June 95 (if anybody is right). Only a specific guess will be considered correct (if you think it is a game release, then you will need to get the title...no, that's not a hint--you can neither rule in or rule out game releases based on my statement and example. Good Luck ! :) Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 304 Fri May 19, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 22:18 EDT How many guesses do we have? My first guess is that you plan on wearing US Army/Marine camo fatigues with full gear and wear camo paint on your faces when you appear at cons. This should stimulate sales hopefully. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 305 Sat May 20, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 00:18 EDT Or get us busted by the BATF, assuming full gear means automatic weapons.:) Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 306 Sat May 20, 1995 W.GRAVES2 [Wig] at 01:52 EDT Dean, The surprise must be Mugs with Perry's picture on them (sorry Perry). Wig ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 307 Sat May 20, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 06:07 EDT Sorry I didn't mean full gear as in weapons. Just backpacks and web gear like shovels, water bottles etc. Stuff you see in a fully outfitted Marine on field duty. Anyway, that guess more outlandish. Here is one that is more conservative guess. 1)Dean will have a fish bowl ready at his booth in Origins and will offer raffle tickets for anyone willing to drop in business cards or fill out THE Gamers survey forms. The prize will be drawn during Origins. In addition, Dean will have some poor soul dress up like Tiger or Bear in order to gain more attention at his booth. Perhaps kiss a few babies too. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 308 Sat May 20, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 08:37 EDT S.Cat: If those guesses _don't_ qualify as outlandish (while the first does...), I'm confused. Make all the guesses you like...hopefully, those on-line will generate further guesses based on what others are guessing (etc. as a form of working together even when in competition). Remember the contest is here for your fun and amusement...please take advantage of it. I will be go till Monday (again)...this time to a distributor Open House (Sell them games...Sell them games...Sell them games... :) Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 309 Sat May 20, 1995 W.RAMSAY [Bill] at 11:33 EDT Could The Gamers be starting... a Dave Wood Fan Club? Nah. Regards, Bill ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 310 Sat May 20, 1995 F.HOLLANDER [fth] at 12:16 EDT My guess is that you're spinning off a software effort. I hope I'm wrong, since if I'm not involved it would be more likely to fail... In any case, it would be a really big surprise if I'm right, but it's the only thing I can think of. Are you going to take the best idea and declare it the answer, or is something really going on? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 311 Sat May 20, 1995 A.MALY [Ano] at 17:06 EDT My guess is that you are going to start including OOB cards in games. The first game to include them will be Tunisia. Ano BTW, playing YK. Tough gig. Especially after 7 turns when the IDF gets only 3 tank replacement steps, total. After two games its 1 draw and one Egyptian minor, since the IDF blew off the first cease fire. One suggestion, I would have backprinted the captured bridge counters so that you could flip them over and have the other side posess the bridge. As it is, you are limited to 3 per side. When is the next Ops coming out, and will it have YK errata? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 312 Sat May 20, 1995 J.BEHAN1 [Jeff] at 18:11 EDT Gamers: My guess. A new series of games. Something along the lines of a Civil War Operational Series? That would be cool... Later, Jeff ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 313 Sat May 20, 1995 F.HOLLANDER [fth] at 18:46 EDT Jeff, Oooooooooooooh, that's a good one. That's one I hope is true. falling for this contest promotion, fth ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 314 Sun May 21, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 01:53 EDT Dean - Obviously I have no inkling as to what you guys are going to start doing at CONS. The part about dressing someone up to attract business does sound kind of neat though outdated. Now I will have to put on my thinking cap and make more educated guesses. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 315 Sun May 21, 1995 D.HEINZ1 [Fritz] at 07:08 EDT Dean, HHHMMMMM? Let's see, maybe 1) a final playtest of Korsun Pocket? 2) an "on the road" collate party of the above? 3) selling game specific t-shirts 4) hold a contest to see if anyone can match John R. beer for beer and still beat him in any of your games. More guesses to come later. Just started a game of YK with the new guy in our group. This is the first wargame he has tried besides ASL. So far he looks like he is enjoying himself. We'll get farther along this week. Later, Fritz ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 316 Sun May 21, 1995 A.MALY [Ano] at 13:25 EDT You're going to establish a Web site? You've found a printer who will let you expand the number of pages in Operations and it won't cost you, or the subscriber any additional cost? Game trays in the games? Mini-CWB series games. Small battles that you'll sell only the map, counter and exclusive rules to for about $15. First battle to be Pea Ridge. Ano ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 317 Sun May 21, 1995 R.NIX3 [Boo] at 16:03 EDT No, no no, y'allll are finally gonna sponsor the All world Nude wargaming tournament. Bob Guccione has the sponsorship rights. Boo. :) ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 318 Sun May 21, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 16:37 EDT Ok.... Buy two games at the full price(ie at least $40/ea) and get the third game free! Plus any games bought will be personally autographed by the designer and developer. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 319 Sun May 21, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 17:35 EDT They're going to introduce "a wargame as big as your head." ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 320 Sun May 21, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 18:28 EDT Of these ideas, perhaps the two most frightening are the "all nude gaming" (do you _really_ wanna see these people naked?! Will they all be playing gladiator games while au naturel?) and the wargame as big as your head. I mean, we have pretty swelled heads - that's a big game, if you know what I mean.:) On second thought, in the nude gaming session, I guess everyone will be playing thier "Proud Monster." Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 321 Sun May 21, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 19:03 EDT All Nude Gaming? Kinda gives you the heebie-geebies, doesn't it? Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 322 Sun May 21, 1995 D.SCHNELL2 [DanS] at 23:19 EDT Booo on you Dave, :) next game will be Punnish Front, both sides exchange puns. I am still thinking about my guess DanS ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 323 Mon May 22, 1995 T.OLSON4 [Tim] at 02:10 EDT Yove probably been doing this.....but my guess is you will be running demos for people new to The Gamers products. BTW Ireceived my Yom Kippur in good shape but I was charged for another Aprils Harvest. Monry-wise I think its a wash but it might screw up your inventory count. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 324 Mon May 22, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 03:09 EDT I know. Three people will dress up as frogs and say..."the....Game....rs" in front of your booth. Actually the nude gaming idea is pretty racey. Wish I'd thought of that. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 325 Mon May 22, 1995 T.ARMSTRON10 at 07:37 EDT Hello! Played Yom Kippur this weekend for the first time. Only finished five turns but what a great, fun game! General question about strategy: has anyone had any luck peeling back the Egyptian SAM umbrella to launch Israeli airmobile raids? Kind regards, Tim Armstrong ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 326 Mon May 22, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:56 EDT Hi guys, I'm back from the Chessex open house...good time, bad flu (I got sick), sure lets you know where wargames stand in the mind of many retailers, and there are just too many smokers in Indiana... There are some interesting guesses out there (the all-nude gaming thing would work given some very carefully chosen models--with the general wargame player population, it just scares me to death :) fth: There will be a definite winner and something is really going on :) Ano: Next Ops is in June and it will have the one known line of errata for YK-- the Egyptian bridges cannot begin the game emplaced. Fritz: I'll try the Reed special Beer contest...but only if he learns and plays by the rules instead of making it up as he goes along... S.Cat: Buy two games and get one free ?? Why would we act so desparate? Besides, if it were limited to games costing $40 or more, only two games would fit...Omaha and EatG...as all our games (aside from those two) are $39 or less. Tim: No, it won't screw up inventory...but it will fork over royalties I was suppossed to get into Al Wambold's hands...nothing to lose sleep over, believe me... S.Cat: Love the Frog idea...wish I'd thought of it... Tim Armstrong: I found the only way to peel back the SAM screen effectively is the ground offensive west of the canal...I've tried using air barrages, but its too expensive, and it has been a long time since someone placed the SAMs where I could effectively raid them with Israeli artillery (ahhh, the good old days). Have fun guys, Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 327 Tue May 23, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 00:13 EDT Ahhhh...I know. Dean, you are going into the damn card game business. The-Gamers...The Gathering. Each game will now have a collectible card and a stick of Topps like bubblegum. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 328 Tue May 23, 1995 A.MALY [Ano] at 00:28 EDT Since I'm 1,500 miles from home, I've nothing better to do that to think up entries for the contest. At Origins 95, The Gamers, by releasing Tunisia and Black ?Day will have published/printed/sold their 100,000th wargame. A milestone for a wargaming company. If so, can I have #100,000? I could be wrong, since I didn't bring my past copies of Ops with me. I guess I can go to sleep now. Ano ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 329 Tue May 23, 1995 A.MALY [Ano] at 00:34 EDT P.S. Repeat my last message for every milestone between 1 and 1,000,000. I'd hate to be cheezed out if I'm right. Ano ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 330 Tue May 23, 1995 D.HEINZ1 [Fritz] at 06:26 EDT Dean, You've stumbled onto why the Reed ploy doesn't always work he has to get you drinking BEFORE play begins :). Now you know why there wasn't much accurate reporting on EATG from his group! Seriously, John is a great guy and a lot of fun to play as I'm sure Dave has found out. Looks like I might be able to put in an appearance at the retreat since the ASL Oktoberfest tourney I usually attend in mid-OCT has been pushed back a week. Hard to justify to the boss 2 4-day weekends two weeks apart but hopefully easier if they are three weeks apart. Later, Fritz ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 331 Tue May 23, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:31 EDT S.Cat: Actually, I like the name Panzer:The Gathering myself :) How about a collectable _counter_ game...no two games alike and booster packs would be available... (just kidding) Ano: Where are you??? Were you sent on an expedition to the north pole? Fritz: Agreed on John Reed--great guy, lots of fun to have around...just sometimes a little fast and loose on the rules. See ya at Homercon... Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 332 Tue May 23, 1995 C.DAVIS [charles] at 19:38 EDT In the CWB series when you change formation from unmounted cav in line to mounted how many movement points do you use for the change formation? How many movement points do the newly mounted Cav have? Also when a Ex. line takes a morale check can it get a bonus from a leader who is stacked with the mother unit? or vis versa??? chuck ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 333 Tue May 23, 1995 B.BONNEVIER [AXEMAN] at 19:45 EDT Since you liked the H39 suggestion for the 1995 counterseheet, here's one you'll really love: how about reprinting some of the Stuart counters with the correct model and profile (M3a1's in Mat and M5's for the 1944 and 1945 games)? Couldn't resist. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 334 Tue May 23, 1995 J.BYRNE2 [Jim Byrne] at 20:28 EDT How about Panzerkampfwagen!:Der Lager? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 335 Tue May 23, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 22:53 EDT Chuck: Formation change is proportional in cost. Technically, changing from dismounted line to mounted would cost the cav unit 2 MP, leaving 10 MP to use. Note that this cost is 1/6 of the available MA, exactly the proportion found when infantry changes from line to column, for example (1 MP cost.) When an extended line takes a morale check, only leaders (or other benefits, like trenches or unlimbered artillery) that are actually in the effected HEX provide a benefit. Note that part in the rules that says extended lines are treated like normal combat units. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 336 Wed May 24, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:02 EDT Aaah, the technical details of Stuarts...my heart is all a-twitter... :) Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 337 Wed May 24, 1995 D.SCHNELL2 [DanS] at 19:58 EDT I think the "first" for the Gamers is the Yom Kippur tourney. or it could be the first Gamers sponsored tourney held outside HomerCon. DanS ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 338 Thu May 25, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:35 EDT Dan: It could be those things...but only if you ignore the stuff we've put on at Origins for the last few years :) Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 339 Thu May 25, 1995 D.HEINZ1 [Fritz] at 19:09 EDT Dean, Another guess; a four round tournament featuring a different SCS game in each round. Later, Fritz ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 340 Thu May 25, 1995 F.HOLLANDER [fth] at 20:19 EDT Here's another guess: The Gamers is acquiring a major product or company to add to its line, or is adding a noted industry professional to its staff. fth ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 341 Thu May 25, 1995 J.STORMES1 [James] at 21:58 EDT Dean refers to an event whose occurrence was a prerequisite for this contest. I conjecture that this event was the signing of a contract. Because The Gamers are the best in the industry at meeting their scheduled publication dates, it would be reasonable for the The Gamers to manage the production and distribution of games for another publisher. Dean's comment about "working together even when in competition" on this contest may also be an unintented reference to such an agreement with another publisher. The other publisher would not be a major competitor, such as Clash of Arms or GMT, but rather a smaller company with a product that complements The Gamers' established series. The other publisher might be a minor domestic company, but my hunch is that it is an established foreign publisher that wants to break into the English-speaking, North American market. At this point, I run out of facts upon which to base further speculation. I have little or no knowledge of foreign wargame publishers or the games that they have published, so I cannot pursue my line of thought to the specific conclusions that are required to win the contest. Perhaps, if I am on the right track, Dean will award me an Honorable Mention. James ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 342 Thu May 25, 1995 A.MALY [Ano] at 22:42 EDT Another thought. The-Gamers will run several tourneys/demos at Origins. They want to appropriately award a trophy to the overall best combined performance. This person will be known as "The Big Burrito - 'XX" for the year won. The events that happened were: a) Getting sponsorship from the resturant. Prize includes free burritos for a year. b) Finding a trophy maker who could bronze a burrito. Ano P.S. Dean, I was searching for the West Pole. I figured the North and South get all the press. . . ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 343 Fri May 26, 1995 R.EICHENLAUB [Dick] at 07:41 EDT I have a question on scenario 8 of EATG. Since the SOviets have no rail on the map, where do their SP reinforcements come on? Also, can the Axis supply be placed in any rail hex connected to the the west edge (free of RailCap) or must they be placed in Dnep.? -Dick- ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 344 Fri May 26, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:47 EDT Dick: The road and rail hexes leading off the map are the entry points for both sides (directions as appropriate). James: Nice line of reasoning...no comment on accuracy (intended or unintended) :) Ano: You are right in one thing...I _would_ pay to have a Burritto bronzed... Perry: Did you get my e-mail...haven't heard back from you.... Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 345 Fri May 26, 1995 R.RUBIN8 [Rich Rubin] at 19:22 EDT My opponent in a PBM game of Stalingrad Pocket challenged my setup, saying that the German 51 Corps must start in the CITY of Stalingrad. The rule booklet states that 51 corps starts (the full scenario) "In the 51 corps area West of the Volga." However, he says he has called The Gamers' twice and been told they start in Stalingrad. Who is right? My guess for Origins contest: you will launch your new line of games, on "The Age of the Rifle" from Marlborough to Pre-WWI. My alternative guess is that you will begin printing MAPBOARDS on the stuff you use for your new counters. Or you will begin publishing SCS games TWICE a year. (These answers are all too serious to possibly be right). ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 346 Sat May 27, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 07:51 EDT Rich, The 51st Corps can set up in any shaded hex of the 51st Corps area, with the exceptions that they cannot set up in 37.33, which is part of the Soviet area 7 set-up, or hex 42.28, in Soviet area 8. Of course, hexes east of the Volga are also off-limits. They do not need to be restricted to German zone 8, Stalingrad itself. Now, Dean may have been the arbiter who determined the 51st be restricted to the city itself, and if so, I'm sure he'll intervene here and discipline me accordingly. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 347 Sat May 27, 1995 R.EICHENLAUB [Dick] at 08:40 EDT Another little EatG question. A DG stack with two units and an organic truck have an o2 to do but are surrounded. When retreating (btw, both units are 1 REs), the combat units lose a step loss for retreating adjacent to an enemy while DG. Does the truck get left in the last hex where the second unit was eliminated? Thanks for the answer to the last one. -Dick- ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 348 Sat May 27, 1995 C.DAVIS [charles] at 09:34 EDT Thanks , another question on thunder at the crossroads, When the Federals have reynolds as acting army commander, does he still also act as corps commander or does one of his division commanders get a temporary bump up? I would think Reynolds remains corps commander, but am not sure. chuck ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 349 Sat May 27, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 11:52 EDT Dave: Consider yourself disciplined... Rich: The 51st Corps Zone (the shaded hexes) has nothing to do with set up...it is there for the movement restriction. 51st Corps must set up in Set Up Area 8 which are those hexes contained in the set up line extending out from the Area 8 marker in hex 40.30...it extends into the city hexes only. Dick: Are these units surrounded such that no retreat is possible? or is there a hole they can squirt out of? In the first case they must take all their option result as losses (two dead units with an organic truck left in the hex. In the second, they retreat as best they can and take a loss in each hex they enter which is adjacent to the enemy...assuming they all are, you'll end up with no units and one organic truck in the last hex. Either way, the truck is left there for the enemy...the difference being where it gets left. Charles: When Reyonlds is acting army commander, one of his division commanders automatically gets bumped up...any other version brings on all sorts of wierd how does he give orders to himself problems which are not worth the bother. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 350 Sat May 27, 1995 R.RUBIN8 [Rich Rubin] at 13:09 EDT Dean and Dave, Thanks for your responses. NOW I see set up area 8! The setup rules don't mention it. Rich ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 351 Sat May 27, 1995 P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog] at 14:32 EDT Dean, You are right in that redoing most of the French tanks is not worth it. I am sure you are going to get lots of good suggestions from others. I just went thru mags #15 and #16 but did not see any errata on the Hunters contour lines. I just found the 1994 Gamers Xmas mailing and can't find any mention there either. Please tell me exactly where to find the Hunters' errata? Wig, My whole gaming group wants the now famous vaporware mugs. I tell them that they had better not expect me to push for them. I don't need one and I won't return to Waco if you intend to foist one on me. :-) Samurai, Go to Homercon and get all the autographs you could want. Just bring your rules. There is a sale on air fares through June 6th so I had better ask my boss for vacation time so I can go. I just received the brochure and I noticed the YK tourney. Maybe I can get Scott and Hank to play some games before I go. I will have no problems going to Homercon as I have already submitted the vacation request. Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 352 Sun May 28, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 08:45 EDT Oops! See why it pays to have the big brain around? Sorry for the confusion on Stalingrad Pocket. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 353 Sun May 28, 1995 J.BODINE3 [Badger] at 12:19 EDT re: TCS 3.1 Air Sorties We're using the 3.1 rules with GD'40. I hate to make things more complicated, shouldn't there be some restriction on air sorties attacking enemy units adjacent to friendly ones? Also, it appears that the aircraft, especially fighters, are too effective hitting units under cover. Suggestion: different stacking point modifers for air, with a differentiation between cover types. re: Overwatch In the 3.1 rules, is it true that a 150 infantry gun gets to fire perhaps nine times or so at a Hotchkiss coming right at it over open terrain? (with button- up penalties to movement taken into account) Suggestion: allow a particular non-phasing stack to fire at the moving stack only once. This does not prevent other stacks from firing at the moving stack as it enters other hexes. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 354 Sun May 28, 1995 B.BONNEVIER [AXEMAN] at 18:03 EDT A question on GD40. I'm just about to capture Stonne and realized I don't know what this means. "Control", "hold" and "capture" seem to be used interchangeably. Do they mean "the last side that had a unit enter the hex" or do you need to occupy each hex at scenario end? Or do they mean something else? Thanks - many Frenchmen await your reply ... ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 355 Sun May 28, 1995 W.GRAVES2 [Wig] at 21:23 EDT AXEMAN, Victory is determined based on "Control" of the town and a Player must be the last one to have entered each of the towns hexes. Thus it is possable that neither Player will be in "Control". [I used the words control, hold, and capture just to vary the descriptors to match the situation]. Wig ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 356 Sun May 28, 1995 D.HEINZ1 [Fritz] at 23:41 EDT Dean, In the scenarios, do you roll for first player rights or is someone specific supposed to go first on the initial turn. Played both scenarios 3 & 4 today and diced for initiative. I felt that the Soviets having the first move in #4 really makes it tough on the Germans. This is my first spin through the smaller scenarios ( part of the John Reed syndrome "play the campaign game first" ). I've finally convinced Louis Rotundo to try the system and we're working our way up the counter density scale. Later, Fritz ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 357 Mon May 29, 1995 J.BODINE3 [Badger] at 00:14 EDT re: TCS 3.1 Overwatch Is Overwatch (Movement) always triggered by adjacent movement, regardless of terrain? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 358 Mon May 29, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 01:52 EDT Give Louis my regards. I haven't seen him since 1991. ---------- Games RoundTable Category 4, Topic 43 Sent on 5/29/1995 at 6:50p Badger, I agree with you that there should be a chance for adjacent air strikes to hit friendly units. Make up a house rule. Dean really wanted to streamline the old 3.0 air rules which resulted in too many friendly fire results. I disagree on planes being too effective vs. units under cover. The chances of hitting go down and the terrain modifiers reduce the results as well. You could add a spotting rule for units under cover so that friendly troops would call in the air strikes. I think that units not moving in the woods could be harder to spot because that is where the Germans in Normandy spent much of their days while moving to the front. Overwatch triggers happen in every hex so the 150 can fire a lot. That is why I use the ample French arty. LOS is blocked by arty attack zones. If you restrict overwatch too much, then one can rush the unit while impervious to another shot. I am positive that the rules say that overwatch is always triggered when the enemy moves adjacent. Axeman, An answer straight from the designer! I will have to print Wig's response off and put it in the box. We had played that the town must not have any troops from the other side. Fritz, Some time back Don provided me w/ the "historical" first players for each scenario. My notes saw the Soviets move first in all scenarios except 4 and possibly 3 and 8. Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 360 Tue May 30, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:44 EDT Perry: It is in the current stuff in the computer...unfortunately the lag times between when I type it in and when Demko posts it in the mag caught up with us. Wig: How much you will'n to pay for a few specially produced Perry Mugs... Badger: Are you sure you are using the 3.1 rules? (I ask because both questions are handled there directly.) Terrain effects on sortie success: Yes, that is why there are two different lines on the Sortie table--one for open (or clearer) terrain and another for close (or worse) terrain. Overwatch: These fires would be strictly limited by the available spotting range which is 3 hexes in the Open. That would leave your gun with three shots at the on-coming tank. Nine shots could only occur if the tank did a sort of lateral dash across the gun's front or did a sort of dance back and forth in range to generate more shots against it. Reason for not limiting stack overwatch: a machine gun can take out any number of guys thrown at it (within reason and ammo)...limits on overwatch for numbers of fires would mean that you could run one expendable guy at a hex, watch him get killed (or allowed to pass unharmed), and then swarm on the now helpless stack with a bunch of other units. No, this makes for some really dumb gamey tactics. Axeman: Last one through a hex is the right def of control et al. Fritz: Except in the Uranus and Little Saturn scenarios, the first player is diced for...in Tunisia and future OCS games, each scenario will always list the first player. Badger: Adjacent movement _always_ generates overwatch fires. Have fun! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 361 Wed May 31, 1995 J.BODINE3 [Badger] at 00:35 EDT My complaint about hitting enemy units adjacent to friendly ones is not that there is no longer any chance that that friendlies get hit. My objection is that in such cases air units would be very reluctant to attack at all. My father flew F-51's in Korea (39th Fighter Squadron, 18th Fighter Wing), which were used exclusively as Jabos. Even with the relatively sophisticated ground liasons they had then (compared to the French of 1940, fer sure), they virtually never operated more than several hundred yards from friendly forces. I think Matinikau does it better, with air attacks triggered by moving enemy forces. For GD'40, collect your air points during the air phase (keep it secret!) and use them as a sort of Overwatch force. When an enemy activity triggers a potential air attack, allocate the plane or planes, then roll for spotting. Triggers and Spotting Rolls (use 1 six-sider): Moving or SFA in the open: Spot 3-6, No Spot 1-2 Moving or SFA in partial cover: Spot 5-6, No Spot 3-4, Plane Used 1-2 Moving or SFA in full cover: Spot 6, No Spot 4-5, Plane Used 1-3 Die Mods: Vehicle +1, Road Movement +1, Adjacent to Friendly Troops -2 Smoke or Arty -2, Arty or Inf Gun firing +1 The players still get to choose whether to attempt a Spot (and attack) on a trigger. "Plane Used" means the counter is expended with no attack. We haven't tried this out yet. Anyone else willing to give it a try? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 362 Wed May 31, 1995 P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog] at 00:37 EDT Dean, I am gong out on a small limb, but Badger is right. LOS for overwatch is unlimited against vehicles. So one could get many shots at a lumbering tank as it moved towards a 150mm IG. Lee did this to me at Homercon but I took a few turns of button up and got close enough to squish his guns under my French treads. He will never again stack an IG w/o infantry so the AT rolls provide some defence. Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 363 Wed May 31, 1995 J.BODINE3 [Badger] at 00:41 EDT Geez, somehow we missed the 3-hex spotting for Overwatch. What I meant in regards to terrain effects and air spotting was some spotting mod beyond the 3- 6 for open and the 4-6 for covered. Was having a hard time figuring how my 109s could see his cowering troops in the woods (but my previous message). If anyone wants to try the air attack system, use the stacking modifiers for spotting mods. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 364 Wed May 31, 1995 R.DUMKE [Russ] at 01:13 EDT Here's a guess for the big contest: The Gamers have accepted an outside game submission for publication. Russ ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 365 Wed May 31, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 10:08 EDT Perry: I stand corrected...Badger, ignore my uninformed comments, Perry is right :) Russ: You mean to say the BRS (92), Stalingrad Pocket (92), Matanikau & GD'40 (both 93), Hunters from the Sky (94), April's Harvest and Yom Kippur (95) don't count? Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 366 Wed May 31, 1995 J.STORMES1 [James] at 10:53 EDT SCS Rules Question: Series rule 7.2e permits units with a Zero combat value to participate in an attack, absorb step losses, and advance after combat. Does this include Artillery units, which have a barrage strength only, as well as units that have an explicitly Zero combat value (such as the German engineer units in Ardennes)? If so, then can Artillery units in fire mode with a movement allowance of zero advance after combat? Can/must they change mode in order to do so? James ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 367 Wed May 31, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 17:53 EDT James: No, the unit being addressed by 7.2e must have an _explicit_ zero combat strength...artillery and things like the HQs in Yom Kippur, cannot take advantage of that rule. Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 368 Wed May 31, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 20:41 EDT Here's a guess: the Gamers will publish a non-series game. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 369 Wed May 31, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 22:51 EDT Okay here is another guess. The Gamers...The Movie. Starring Dean as the intrepid hero Sgt Saunders Dave as Lt Hanley Perry as Kirby Wig as Little John Ulrich as Frenchie plus a cast of thousands. Dean...I want your autograph. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 370 Thu Jun 01, 1995 J.REED9 [jhreed] at 01:50 EDT Here is my guess: The Gamers' grand reprint of (drum beat............) "Eagle And The Sun" with no attempt to improve an obviously great game. 7 maps, 3000 counters, and, for those of you who think the Gamers' produce too difficult games, NO RULES (at least that you can figure out). As to beer drinking and gaming I met my match with Keith Fortner. He and I had a great time at the Fort Worth Origins playing Afrika and drinking a beer or two. I don't recall who won the game. I plan on inhabiting the Gamers' game room to play their new releases. Anybody else interested in this kind of thing let me know. By the way, I'm also very interested in Richard Berg's new 3 Dog Night so it looks like a busy Origins for me. Later -- John Reed Hey -- what is this about playing fast and loose with the rules -- I've never met a rule I didn't like. I usually spend about half the time I spend playing desperately searching for a rule to get me out of the fix I'm in! A second on everybody else's opinion of Yom Kippur. Very innovative. I like the way that the SCS now has four different games, all of them using essentially the same rules, and yet all very different in feel. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 371 Thu Jun 01, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:25 EDT S.Cat: You sure do come up with the way-out guesses...besides, that will be a cast of _millions_. (We were working on hiring India (to get a billion), but Spielberg said it was too much for the budget (party pooper) :) John: See ya there, but remember the table space in the room itself will be limited to Gamers and MiH games due to the space limitations. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 372 Thu Jun 01, 1995 DIPLOMACY-1 at 21:31 EDT Topic Closed for Cleaning Peter Szymonik Games RT Sysop ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 73 Sat Jun 03, 1995 R.DUMKE [Russ] at 02:06 EDT Dean, How can they count if they're not Secret? ;) Russ ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 74 Sat Jun 03, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 03:58 EDT Dean - If you didn't like being cast as Sgt Saunders then how about as Sgt. Rock. On a more serious note I don't think that Omaha is really workable with TCS 3.0 rules. We seem to be stretching the game to it's limits in this case. Well, as the Americans, we've lost a good Regt sized unit as well lots of tanks and support weapons. German arty is very good. We've managed to clear out all the opposition where we landed by 11am. Germans rolled crappy as they didn't activate the reserves til now at 1120am. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 75 Sat Jun 03, 1995 D.MANN8 [Doug Mann] at 09:11 EDT Dave or Dean Our group here in Corpus Christi finally got around to some serious "April's Harvest" last night and had some questions come up. While I had caught the errata posting on the 5:30 first turn, I missed your answer to a previously posted question about whether the unalerted Union commands are able to perform emergency corps retreat. On the Confederate side, may the Rebels freely switch to column for- mation on the first turn? Can they start in column? Also, my Confederate co-commander felt it a reasonable interpretation of 2-2's orders to trot Withers' bunch to the McCuller Field area on the Hamburg- Savannah Road before turning north towards the Peach Orchard. The Union commander felt 2 Corps should probably be limited to the Eastern Corinth Road. Was this "gaming the game"? Thanks in advance. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 76 Sat Jun 03, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:21 EDT S.Cat: I thought you guys were using TCS 3.1....regardless, if you thought it was pushing 3.0 around, try it with the original rules sometime :) Doug: Unalerted formations take their lumps in place...they can't ECR their way out of trouble... Unless stated specifically otherwise, any unit can be set up in either column or line (limbered or unlimbered)...extended lines are only allowed where called for by the set up. I think your co-commander's plan is pushing the envelope of interpretation...I'd side with the Union player on that one. Have Fun! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 77 Sat Jun 03, 1995 D.MANN8 [Doug Mann] at 20:13 EDT Wow! That's service (same day, too). I suspected as much on emergency retreat. Even accounting for my co-commander's "cheat" end- around, the Union was doomed with all the whaling my 3rd Corps boys did on Sherman's division. The Union commander felt that the ability to go into column in the pre- dawn gloom while approaching a hostile encampment seemed questionable. The heart of the matter is really the number of turns the Rebels got to shellack his sleeping Yankees. Still, we only played to mid-morning before he "failed his morale check" at around 11:45 p.m. last night. We'll set it up again in a week or so with a more historical approach for Withers' div. Since I'm posting "nut mail," a question on "No Better Place to Die" -- where does the Union 1-1-Cav unit set up on the December 31 scenario? Is that a missing entry from the Union Order of Arrival table or should it be on the map? Thanks again. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 78 Sat Jun 03, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 22:58 EDT I think there's Errata on 1-1-Cav, but blamed if I can find it - Dean, got anything on it? It may be that 1-1-Cav was withdrawn to go protect trains (Wheeler was trying to steal them) but I'll have to check old notes. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 79 Sun Jun 04, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 08:17 EDT Dave & Doug: Nope, no errata on that one...the cav is not on the map and shouldn't be...it was withdrawn between that scenario and the earlier start ones. Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 80 Sun Jun 04, 1995 B.SCHWEITZE1 [Bruce] at 09:37 EDT I'm in the middle of my first Ardennes game, it's sure a lot of fun. Of course, I'm paying my dues learning the ropes. The Germans have open roads to the West. Bruce ---------- Games RoundTable Category 4, Topic 43 Sent on 6/04/1995 at 8:05p Bruce, Relax, we have to wait for the much too slow supply unit. Your strong attack in north has got me worried. US armor and lots of arty is deadly. I thought we were in great shape when the US southern commander moved the 101st straight toward the encircled Bastogne, instead of heading west to contain the Germans. Even though the 101st is out of place, I think you are going to prevent a magic victory. If Scott can get another DG on Bastogne next turn, then we have a chance to take it before Patton shows up in strength. Then we will see how the battle for the cities (and VP's) go. Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 82 Mon Jun 05, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 12:50 EDT Just a quick reminder...only 10 more guessing days left... (I wonder what S.Cat will come up with with 10 days to think about it :) Have fun! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 83 Mon Jun 05, 1995 D.VOHLERS at 20:29 EDT I don't know if someone has guessed this, or if it is already "official" news, but I saw a post over on Consim-l that the maps for Marengo were ready to go along with Krasni Bor and Tunisia. Could that be it? Dick ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 84 Tue Jun 06, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:39 EDT Dick: I'm not trying to wreck your fun (especially since it opens the court to more of S.Cat's animal costume guesses), but that is not it... The Marengo Map, counters, and boxes were printed at the same time as those other games (for the economy of scale advantages), but the game is still slated for its September release. Those parts will be on display at Origins for those who want a sneak preview... Sorry to rain on the parade...Oh yes, given the quantity and quality of the guesses I've seen here there will be two $20 runner up prizes as well as the main $50 one...don't interprete that as a hint (one way or the other) that the main prize has already been won (or not been won...). :) Have fun! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 85 Tue Jun 06, 1995 R.RUBIN8 [Rich Rubin] at 19:13 EDT Aha!!! Aha!!!! It's nude play, that's the only subject common to 3 or more messages. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 86 Tue Jun 06, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 22:42 EDT Naah don't worry Dean. I've already made a fool of myself so many times that I'll decline making any more guesses. though..that frog idea is just waay too cool not to pass up. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 87 Tue Jun 06, 1995 R.NIX3 [Boo] at 23:13 EDT The Gamers have bought the rights to ASL and will be publishing the Armies of Oblivion this year. Charlie Kibler has signed on with the gamers to do the maps. I'd be thrilled to hear that's true. It's certainly a more pleasant thought than my first guess which was the all nude tournament, Boo ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 88 Wed Jun 07, 1995 D.FOXMAN [Dan] at 00:52 EDT If only it were true...sigh. At least then ASL would be a game and not a religion. :-) ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 89 Wed Jun 07, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:57 EDT Rich: I think the nude play suggestions represent the baser needs of the wargaming public...I wonder what Freud would make of it... I'll be out of town for the rest of the week and will be back Monday...Kieth Fortner and I are going to VA Beach to pummel two guys in EatG... ...if we get slammed, expect to never hear a thing about it :) Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 90 Wed Jun 07, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 18:08 EDT Come back with your dice cup or on it, Compadre... Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 91 Wed Jun 07, 1995 B.RIGGS1 [Entropy] at 21:24 EDT I am posting this notice on behalf of Larry Tagg who's name some of you may recognize as Larry was a principal playtester for much of THE GAMER's civil war stuff, among other hobby activities. Larry won't be able to go to ORIGINS this year but he is willing to pay $20 to someone to go to two seminars and take notes (or recordings, if easier, and allowed.) The two seminars are: 1. Civil War Artillery 2. Defeat and Battlefield Break-Points If you would be interesting in helping Larry collect some numbers at these seminars, please contact me via E-Mail and I will put you in touch with him. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 92 Fri Jun 09, 1995 J.BODINE3 [Badger] at 00:02 EDT Question on DUG-IN status (TCS 3.1) Can a unit be dug-in on a "billiard-table" hex, such as Maleme airfield? Can AA units be dug-in in their emplacements? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 93 Fri Jun 09, 1995 D.SCHNELL2 [DanS] at 23:20 EDT Dean, I will stand by my quess on the first Yom Kipper Tourney. re:Nude Gaming, well Freud worked mostly on the "slip of the tongue" that the unconscious is in greater control then we would assume. With that in mind, :) it must be some hidden desire to see the naked opponent to make sure he\she is not hiding anything. hmmmmmmm I wonder if I can use this for a case study in Psychology. Later DanS ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 95 Sat Jun 10, 1995 T.ARMSTRON10 at 17:56 EDT Hello all! Can anyone steer me toward some good books that cover Arab-Israeli conflicts in general and 1973 specifically? Any help would be greatly appreciated.. Kind regards, Tim Armstrong ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 96 Sat Jun 10, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 18:10 EDT I liked Adan's Memiors - "On the Banks of the Suez." Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 97 Sat Jun 10, 1995 GENERAL-3W [JY0] at 21:28 EDT For a good and detailed read on the YK war(73) get Duel for Golan by Asher and Eric Hammel.Very detailed account of the first three days of action at the platoon and company level! Joe Youst ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 98 Sat Jun 10, 1995 J.BYRNE2 [Jim Byrne] at 22:02 EDT Re: Guesses! I speculate that the Gamers have reached an agreement with a software house to put out GB and EatG as computer games. JBB ---------- Games RoundTable Category 4, Topic 43 Sent on 6/10/1995 at 4:36a Badger, I don't see any reason why a unit can not dig-in on the airfield. There is a dug-in modifier on the area fire table for billard table. Remember, the Luftwaffe had been pounding the place so there were bomb craters. These do make nice places to start digging. I think there is a rule for the Bofors guns and they start dug-in in addition to the pit (sand bag) benefit. DanS, They had already announced the YK tourney so that hardly seems like an original guess. The desire for nude gaming is a direct offshoot of the "success" of M:tG and other collectible card games. They are good for something. Dean, Scott and I submit our guess that The Gamers and Clash of Arms have reached an agrrement whereby you will supply the NBS command rules and ratings to all their La Battallie games. This guess fits the point you made about an aggreement being signed. When are you going to just end the contest so we can all learn what is really going to happen? I sure hope you are not using the OCS optional armor rules when playing EatG in VA. Scott has noticed that the Soviets can spread their abundant and dreaded 4-2-4 tank btns around so that all Soviet infantry is "immune" from German armor. Even limiting the defensive bene to combat mode armor is no penalty. The 4-2-4's move as fast as the infantry. Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 99 Sun Jun 11, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 09:14 EDT Joe, Doesn't"Duel" only cover the Golani Front? Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 100 Sun Jun 11, 1995 GENERAL-3W [JY0] at 09:53 EDT Dave, Yes, but it is still an excellent look at Israeli tactical and operational doctrine ala 1973. I agree with your suggested reading of Across Suez; together, I think the two books make great bookends on the subject of the 73 war from the Israeli perspective. Now if only Syria and /or Egypt discovered a counterpart to the now departed Dupuy, we could really get some great data and insights! BTW, I once designed a October War game that Richard Berg was going to do at one time(1986?) It was so complicated that it required the use of about 6-7 looseleaf binders(LOL)! We tracked Israeli and Arab armor by distinct types and used a scale of one step =3 Israeli AFVs or 5 Arab AFVs. Had an airgame you wouldn't have believed! We kind of built it up from a Duel for Kharkov framework. It played very accurately, but in the end it was too much work. Joe ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 101 Sun Jun 11, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 12:07 EDT I think Anthony Cordesman of "Gulf War Commentary" fame has a good general survey of the 1973 war. I thought his survey of the Iran-Iraq war was pretty good. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 102 Sun Jun 11, 1995 T.ARMSTRON10 at 17:10 EDT Any comments on Chaim Herzog's War of Atonement....or Lt. General Saad El Shazly's The Crossing of the Suez...or Frank Aker's October 1973? So far, these are the only ones I have read.. Kind regards, Tim Armstrong ---------- Games RoundTable Category 4, Topic 43 Sent on 6/11/1995 at 7:56p Tim, Heights of Courage was one of the best tactical books I have ever read. It is only about a tank btn on the Gloan Heights but you get a real feel of being there. Including the losses and the Israelis had too many. 5 of us played Ardennes yesterday. The first game was a joke because I screwed up and the other German player had no idea what he was doing. He had bought the game 2 weeks ago. We started over but the US consistently blew 2 out of 3 bridges with Trois Point going on the first turn. We did not get far enough but I think we can make a stand with enough VP's so they will only get a US marginal. We had a question. Can a grief team misdirect a US unit onto a stack so that stacking is violated? I insisted that we could and he just had to move someone else from the stack before the end of his move. Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 104 Mon Jun 12, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 17:54 EDT Perry, As I recall, a misdirected unit sent to an overstacked hex would simply stop in the last legal hex it could enter. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 105 Tue Jun 13, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 10:41 EDT Hi guys! I'm back from Lambslaughter 95...besides the fact that the Hungarians were destroyed (as well as their typical wimpy backstop of the 27 Pz Div), the Chir line was breached and the death of the 6th Pz Div and D'Aosta was all but accomplished, and five Panzer Divisions were cowering in terror around Kotel (sans any clue as to what to do...) _on turn 6_ , The Germans were doing _great_ (pure dripping sarcasm). We Russians feel quite vindicated and left the field in the control of our victorious armies... With the Don and Chri rivers breached, nothing of any note supporting the now destroyed lines, the roads to Starobelsk and Belgorod wide open and a Sudden death victory some three points away...I'd say we Russians had it in the bag. I came back _with_ my dice cup, thank you very much... Badger: Units can dig in in _any_ kind of terrain. DanS: I hope your study of Nude wargaming will _not_ include any photos...talk about those OJ photos making folks ill... Perry: Remember, I didn't make any point about signing an agreement, that was a conclusion James Stormes got to applying logic to my comment about an "event" I was waiting for... No, we didn't use any optionals in the VA game...the guys we were playing had never seen them, so that wouldn't have been fair. Remember, 1) now those tanks have a purpose to exist, before the didn't, and 2) the conclusion we reached in all our play time was that it was too easy to kill things in the open. I hardly consider a 12-2-2 inf div with a 4-2-4 tank on it to be "immune" from German tanks, just because the tanks aren't doubled...those guys are still toast if the German knows what he is doing...it just takes a touch more timing and skill...it is less automatic. That Ardennes trick of yours is pretty slimy...so would be my response...I would go cross-country for a hex not using road movement to burn MPs before getting to you Grief team to completely void the "problem". Have fun! Dean ---------- Games RoundTable Category 4, Topic 43 Sent on 6/13/1995 at 7:08p Dean, Thanks for the update on your EatG adventure. I guess I will have to watch you and Keith playing Tunisia as I am not worthy. :) In Ardennes, the grief teams have no idea how many Americans are standing around at the xroads over that away. They just know that they should send every new unit that way as it is away from the German advance. Besides, your solution does not work as per the rules, Allied units get 5 MP's for moving when redirected by grief teams, no matter how many MP's they have left. I can accept Dave's answer in that they stop in the hex prior to the overstacking. One big traffic jam on the way to the xroads. Besides, Don had units in the hex that could move out so I made him do that. I have never had grief teams do that well in any other game. To bad all the bridges had been blown. Maybe we should have used the grief teams to save key bridges. :) Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 107 Wed Jun 14, 1995 D.SCHNELL2 [DanS] at 01:06 EDT Dean not to worry no photos. Could the Gamers be thinking about entering into the non-wargame market? I hope that I am wrong about that. DanS ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 108 Wed Jun 14, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 10:03 EDT Ooops! Perry, your right...I forgot about the five MP thing...I'll have to think of another gimmick to counter your gimmick :) Tommarrow morning I'll announce the results of the contest...24 hours to get those last minute guesses in...S.Cat: Time to think up some more animal costumes... Good luck & Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 109 Wed Jun 14, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 20:13 EDT Dean: RE: Tanks not doubled vs tanks in OCS: Where was this rule originally set forth? Did somebody post it here, or did it appear in Operations (how did I miss that)? Is it official, optional, or "try it and let us know"? What exactly is the rule? Thought I was paying attention, but this one got right by me.... Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 110 Wed Jun 14, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 21:55 EDT Okay Dean...Here is my final offering... All the people associated with The Gamers all dress up as famous figures in history from now on at ORigins. Dean.........Julius Caesar Sara.........Joan of Arc Dave Powell...Napoleon Perry......Robert E. Lee Ulrich.....Frederick the Great Wig.......Hannibal Dave Demko....Peter the Great John Kisner....Ramses II Rod Miller.....Alexander the Great Vance Von Borries.....Sun Tzu Don Nessbit.........Marlborough Marty Ansdorf.......Henry the V and if you guys need me....I'll dress up as Ghenghis Khan. Hey, I just saw "The Conquerer" with John Wayne. And I'd make a better Ghenghis than the Duke....."That Tartar woman is for my pleasure..." Okay so it's silly. My only other thought was to you all dress up as the Fruit of the Loom guys with a MEAN Inspector #12. ---------- Games RoundTable Category 4, Topic 43 Sent on 6/14/1995 at 7:42p Mark, There was an Internet discussion and Dean also posted a summary here of the optional rules for OCS. Lots of nice changes to the air rules and there are some rules for tank vs. tank and tank vs. at guns. The defence can prevent the attacker from getting doubled (a simplification). These will all be published as optionals for Tunisia (and all OCS games) so hang on. Dean, How can I come up with a guess that can compete with the Samurai Gato's imagination? No way I want to be REL, he was a complex man who was willing to defend the ownership of slaves. Not that the Union guys are angels. I don't think you are going to do computer games. Much harder to make money and you would lose control. Perhaps the new OCS style series for the Civil War or Nappy's campaigns would be my preferred answer. Maybe you are going to start selling games for Uli. BTW, any update on the 7 Day's submission? To all, Does anybody going to Origins want to arrive a day or 2 early and spend the time at Gettysburg? I will have the whole week off so I can arrive early with my library. I will walk anyone into the ground as I really want to trace the first day. I have walked Picket's charge in prior visits. Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 112 Thu Jun 15, 1995 R.TAYLOR77 [Roger] at 00:30 EDT Here are two last-minute guesses: 1. Joe Balkoski is joining your staff, and you will publish the rest of his Civil War operational games. 2. You're publishing a card game. (Has anyone guessed that one yet?) Perry will be a common (he's everywhere), Samurai Cat will be 3 uncommons in differing animal costumes, "Counterattack" magazine will be a rare, and 3W quality assurance will be rumored to exist but actually nonexistent. -- Roger ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 113 Thu Jun 15, 1995 R.OCONNOR6 [Bob O] at 00:32 EDT Vance is associated with the GAMERS? Could have sworn it was GMT. bob ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 114 Thu Jun 15, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 01:01 EDT I think Vance did some stuff with TCS as I saw his name in Hunters. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 115 Thu Jun 15, 1995 T.ARMSTRON10 at 07:34 EDT Another last minute guess... A series of games on World War I tactical combat...... Regards, Tim Armstrong ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 116 Thu Jun 15, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 10:48 EDT Mark: Perry is correct...those are some of the optional rules in the OCS optional package contained in the Tunisia (and +) printing of the OCS rules (those rules also contain a complete index as well). Don't worry though...there is but one actual rules change in those rules (and here it is...) The rule that says "you must become inactive when you enter a friendly air base hex" has been ammended to "you must...friendly air base hex _if the air unit intends on ending its movement there" The purpose of the change is to avoid having friendly air bases throw up a force field inhibiting air activity...we never played that way, but others interpreted the rule literally... Players happy with the straight 2.0 rules (with the published errata) need not worry about picking up the new rules...pick them up if you want the index and those optionals. Perry: Dave says he's going to deliver the Seven Days to us later this year...it is projected for its first (of three) releases in 1997. We will be at G-burg Tuesday before Origins...meet us at 8:00am at the visitor's center...or be square :) S.Cat: Vance helped Wig with some research issues wrt Hunters. And now (S.Cat: Drum roll please): 2nd Runner Up ($20 prize): S.Cat for most imaginative guesses (don't expect it in future contests, tho. :) 1st Runner Up ($30 prize): James Stormes for best use of logical reasoning. And the winner ($50 prize): A.Maly for correctly guessing on 21 May that we will be adding _countertrays_ to each of our new games. The prizes will be paid in countertrays at the rate of one tray per $2 of prize (the price we will charge for them separately). Thanks to all who put in the effort and I hope the contest was fun for all. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 117 Thu Jun 15, 1995 J.STORMES1 [James] at 15:53 EDT As the proud winner of 15 (count 'em, 15!) new The Gamers brand counter trays, I want to thank Dean and The Gamers for once again raising the level of customer expectations in the wargaming hobby! Now let's see, how many more will I need to retrofit my entire collection of The Gamers brand wargames ... James ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 118 Thu Jun 15, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 21:33 EDT Cool!!! Thanks a bunch, Dean. Now I can empty all those silly sandwich bags I use for storing and fill them with real food! I hope those trays will fit in those slim case games and not jut out like a sore thumb. BTW, I want to share my prize with that person who first suggested "Nude gaming". That was great. That person needs help FAST and I bet he/she's very lonely. Anyway, e-mail me with your address and I'll give away 2 of my trays. Be honest now! ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 119 Thu Jun 15, 1995 R.NIX3 [Boo] at 22:06 EDT If you'll look up topic I was the original proponent of the " Aall Nude wargaming" No comments as to my loneliness or desparateness I think the suggestion was somewhat bourbon fueld tho'. Boo ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 120 Thu Jun 15, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 22:32 EDT Dean: The countertrays are a great idea! Thanks. By the way, I WILL be at the collate this weekend, hopefully for both days. Looking forward to seeing you guys again. Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 121 Fri Jun 16, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 00:15 EDT Well send me your address then. I won't comment on the bourbon though. I'm a Scotch and Water man myself. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 122 Fri Jun 16, 1995 R.RUBIN8 [Rich Rubin] at 21:03 EDT I was going to ask what kind of "real food" a Samurai Cat eats, but now that I know you put ... you put .... aaaaagh! in Scotch, I think I don't want to know. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 123 Sat Jun 17, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 05:18 EDT A Samurai eats lots of sushi and greens.....plus a few donuts on the side. Thanks Dean for the certificate for the Omaha Beach Club. So there are only #21 registered people so far, eh? Questions on Omaha 1)Can a moving unit be a spotter and call in a mortar mission for SFA fire after it completes its move? 2)Trucks cannot be supressed I assume since they do not roll for morale. This happened during an airstrike and the plane caused the truck and the cargo to roll for being supressed. We ignored the airstrike result. BTW, we finally had our first "tank" battle if you can call it that. My Stuart took out a Stug III. Oh boy! ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 124 Sun Jun 18, 1995 B.BONNEVIER [AXEMAN] at 15:56 EDT Sounds like a convincing vote for redoing the Stuart counters!!! Still kidding ... ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 125 Mon Jun 19, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 10:11 EDT Well, the intial batches of BW and Tunisia are collated and my many thanks go to those who gave time and considerable effort in 'packing 'em up'. Especially to our rookie collaters (such as GEnie's own Dan Cicero). I hope the organized confusion wasn't too much and you had a reasonably good time (especially so you'll come back...) besides, how can a guy keep up his Boss Hog Chief Engineer rating without practice :) S.Cat: 1) Yes, the moving unit can spot for the mortar SFA. 2) Correct...ignore the result. 3) Took out a StuG with a Stuart? A regular Witmann he is... Have fun! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 126 Mon Jun 19, 1995 L.PRATT [LRP] at 19:44 EDT When will the next OPERATIONS be ready? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 127 Mon Jun 19, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 21:10 EDT This past weekend's collate of BLACK WEDNESDAY and TUNISIA was truly a worker's paradise: the happy workers, singing patriotic songs, laboring in the hopes that the sweat of their brows could bring more glory to the Brotherhood of Wargamers, cheerful overseers, offering helpful guidance and encouragement to even greater exertions... Really, though, I've wanted to make one of these collates for a long time, but life kept getting in the way: new job, new house, yadda, yadda, yadda. You know how it goes... But I got the chance this time and, I gotta tell you, it was one of the best weekends I've had in a _long_ time. I can't say I've participated in a more congenial political discussion since I was in college. (I figured the political spectrum would be rather narrow. Not true.) I was in the company of some thoroughly informed gamers, so discussions of the hobby were great. I got to collate two terrific-looking games. (More on that later.) And the culinary delight that is the Burrito Bigger Than Your Head cannot be matched anywhere in the First World. Here's how it works. I got there about ten o'clock on Saturday (I'm convinced there's no easy way to get to Homer from the western suburbs of Chicago...) and started down the collate lines, putting maps, rules counters and whatnot in boxes. I know now why the box bottom is always oriented the same way as the box top and the contents are always right-side-up when you buy a GAMERS- brand wargame: it's part of the process. That's just the way it's done. And these games are packaged by gamers, not temporaries, migrants, the homeless, out-of-work Soviet shoe assemblers, etc. The people packing these games don't cut corners, so you can be sure you're going to get all the parts and they're going to be in good shape. Dean's taken care to weed out bad suppliers, so there weren't many defective parts, but those that did appear were discarded. Once all the games were assembled, they were fed to Boss Hog: Satan's Own Shrinkwrapper. I drew duty at the end of the pipe: taking finished games off the end of the conveyor and packing them in shipping cartons. I felt like Charlie Chaplin in Modern Times! But all the games were oriented in the shipping cartons in the same manner, the cartons were sealed and loaded onto pallets. Dean rejected any game that came out of the shrinkwrapper with any defects --and it didn't take much to constitute a defect. That night, we stayed at Dean and Sara's house in Homer. It was a riot. I don't know what time it was when we turned in, but there were plenty of dead little soliders in the trash... You could have called Dean's sink Arlington National Cemetary. The next morning, reveille went off at about (oh, my God!) seven o'clock. After a little breakfast, it was back to The Gamers, Inc., Homer Works. We started on TUNISIA, collating a thousand or so copies. Boss Hog was acting a little cantankerous, but was brought to heel by a few tweaks to the pneumatic pressure regulator on the ram and re-routing power through the warp core nacelles. Oh, yeah, and Sara put the little do-dad that puts some slack in the shrinkwrap back on... Defects dropped to zero (like they'd been when I was catching games coming off that conveyor the day before). Work was fast then. We secured about four o'clock on Sunday. This isn't exactly sittin'-around work. It can get hectic. It's satisfying work though, and the conversation alone's worth the trip down and the effort. Besides, as Lee said, "There's nothing so military as labor." Dean and Sara's hospitality is unmatched in the corn belt, you pick up copies of the games you collate and, like I said before, those Burritos As Big As Your Head....well...take it from me: they make a manly meal. As far as the games go. I'll admit that BLACK WEDNESDAY is a game that I might not have bought had I not taken part in this collate. First of all, I don't play the Tactical Combat Series and, second, the subject is -- to me -- unfamiliar: a division of Spanish fascists fighting the Soviets south of Leningrad in 1943. If you're thinking the same thing, take the cure. This game is a real keeper from the looks of it. First, it contains the updated TCS rules, the ones that have received such positive feedback in HUNTERS FROM THE SKY. The artwork is fantastic -- and this from the author of the welding goggles comment... Honestly. It's the best map and counters yet. As for the situation, I got a chance to read some of the source materials used in the design. Krasni Bor was a really hard-fought battle. It looks like it's going to be a tough game for both sides. Much the same can be said of TUNISIA. I haven't tried the OCS, but this situation looks like a good place to start. The artwork is great and the rattle-factor of this game is tremendous. If for nothing else, buy this game 'cause it's cheaper, dollar per pound, than Filet Mignon. More details to follow when I punch some counters and work out the game system. I would recommend making this pilgrimage to Homer to anyone in North America. It's great to work with a group of people like this and, honest to God, it was a lot of fun, a laugh riot. Heck, I'm thinking of cancelling my birthday and Christmas next year. They'll be less fun, I'm confident, so why bother? And go out and buy these games. They're both winners. See you in September, Dean! Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 128 Mon Jun 19, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 21:59 EDT Dan, Glowing praise indeed! However, any man who can spend 2 days in an uncooled warehouse in the middle of a Central Illinois heatwave and still have so many positive things to say about the total experience might be considered to have slipped a mooring or two ...:) Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 129 Mon Jun 19, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 22:06 EDT Well....it was the Haunted Tank! Thanks If possible, include a picture of that Manly Burrito that everyone keeps talking about in the next issue of Operations. I want to see that sucker! ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 130 Mon Jun 19, 1995 S.CLARKE8 [Scott] at 22:25 EDT I've been playing Guderian's Blitzkrieg lately, and like the OCS system. This is the first WWII game I've bought (and will keep) in a LONG time (other than ASL "of course"). I have EATG on order and I noted it has a newer version of the rules. Are these pretty easy to incorporate into GB or did they change things drastically? Scott ---------- GE Electronic Mail To: s.clarke8 Sub: OCS 2.0 Sent on 6/19/1995 at 11:54p Scott, Our group spent 5+ months playing EatG w/ OCS 2.0 rules and we liked all but the air rules. Our Scott has been tinkering w/ GB using the 2.0 rules and we almost played it but I convinced them to wait for Tunisia. If you like the system, use GB w/ 2.0 and I will copy the new optional rules (they come w/ Tunisia). GB as it was makes too much supply available for the Germans. They can usually keep enough panzers in full supply to beat the Russians and then get enough next turn to do it again. One of the keys is using air to transport extra supplies under the old rules. The German supply levels under 2.0 are less and things are a lot tighter. I think the 2.0 supply rules are much simpler as general supply is just a trace (no paying points). Tunisia is 2 maps but a lot less units then GB and it should play much faster then either GB or EatG. EatG is a great game but very very slow. Enjoy, Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 131 Tue Jun 20, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:54 EDT Mr. Pratt: OPS 17 is ready now...we are waiting for the thumbs up from the post office (regarding mail permits and such) before it bolts out the door. Regardless of the USPS, it will ship next week in all events. Dan: Thanks for the extended write-up. I know there are many who will never be able to participate in a collate and wonder what one might be like. Thanks for giving them a peek into the eye of the storm. (and Dave said that cocaine we were slipping you all weekend was a waste of money :) S.Cat: We had wanted to take a photo of that sucker at the last retreat...but forgot. Maybe this year if Perry can keep reminding me. Scott: The conversion of GB to the OCS rules in EatG requires the upgrade kit (free to those who are on the mailing list, drop us a reg card in the mail to get yours if your not on the list), as well as a set of OCS v2.0 rules ($6) and at least one EatG OCS marker sheet ($5). Many forego the marker sheet and just make their own v2.0 specific markers...many of the other common markers are the same as GB anyway. The switchover isn't hard once you have the free upgrade. ...and the new rules are much cleaner than the originals (speed of play, etc.) Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 132 Tue Jun 20, 1995 J.BROSHOT at 23:47 EDT Can we direct order TUNISIA and BLACK WEDNESDAY from you? S.Cat: are you old enough to remember "The Haunted Tank," I used to buy it back when comic books were ten cents and issue (and stopped buying when they went to fifteen cents an issue).:) Jim Broshot P.S. Dean, how much $$$ do we send for the games? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 133 Wed Jun 21, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 02:23 EDT Yeah I couldn't figure out the logic to the Haunted Tank comic book. I mean they started in the Pacific and wound up in ETO with a Pershing, heavily modified, tank. The funniest scene I saw was their Sherman dodging 4 88mm guns, a Jadtiger, and a SturmPanzer and the story was only into the first two pages. I still like the old Weird War and Our Fighting Forces books! How much for Tunisia and Black Wednesday? Will they include the counter trays? ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 134 Wed Jun 21, 1995 P.LARKIN1 [Pat] at 03:46 EDT Dean, My dad and I are in the middle of a bitterly contested Ardennes campaign game. (And yes, alas, the mighty Wehrmacht is going done...fighting hard mind you...but losing nontheless.) We have one question concerning U.S. supply lines: The U.S. currently has two pesky tank battalions deep behind the German line. (Ok, I admit, it's not really much of a line...but still...) Their only connection to the rest of their army is down a secondary road a few hexes to another U.S. battalion and then across a chain of units to another road. Note: The secondary road they're on is not connected to any other U.S.-held road. Is it possible to trace a supply line down a road, hop the three hexes or less to another road, and then trace to the board edge? Or are those damned Shermans (please God, let it be so!) out of supply? Sorry about the relative incoherence of the question...it's late, and the game is set up over at my parents' house. Thanks in advance, Pat ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 135 Wed Jun 21, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 10:34 EDT Re: Purchasing of BW & Tunisia: I want to encourage anyone going to Origins to pick their copy up there. We won't be in any position to ship orders we get ahead of then before we leave for the show and the discounts will be the same there as thiose given in advance. That said, those who are not going to the show can order right away if you like, but I won't pull your leg and tell you you'll get yours before your friends get theirs at Origins. Both games retail for $39.00, but are discounted now and at the show to sell for $32.00. (add 10% for shipping in the states). (Yes, they both include countertrays...one per box.) Pat: Those Shermans are out of supply. The three hexes to a road can only be at the very start of the trace...they can't be used later on to connect offending roads. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 136 Wed Jun 21, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 17:45 EDT S. Cat, the funniest scene I ever saw in the Haunted Tank was when the stuart was being parachuted into Burma. (Don't ask me why, I haven't a clue why they needed to go to Burma...) As the tank floats down on its chute, a Zero begins strafing them. Naturadly, the crew chambers a round of 37mm HE, and blasts the Zero head on with one shot. Simply amazing... What about Sgt. Rock, or the Howling Commandos? Anybody read them? Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 137 Wed Jun 21, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 20:13 EDT Dean- Am I to understand that Tunisia won't be in stores until AFTER Origins? Won't be making the show this year, and I'm very anxious to get my hands on this one. BTW, on Memorial Day weekend I visited my brother in Rossville, IL, and made a pilgramage to Homer. Stopped by your quaint little office/warehouse but no one was in. Oh well, better luck next time . . . -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 138 Wed Jun 21, 1995 P.POMERANTZ1 [Phil] at 21:15 EDT I read a lot of those war comics. I loved the sound from the Thompson SMGs, always fired from the hip, gripped in one hand, BUDDA-BUDDA-BUDDA! Phil ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 139 Wed Jun 21, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 21:20 EDT Dave - Too bad there aren't any good war comics around anymore. I used to read Sgt Rock until he got promoted to Lt. Rock then gave up. Don't know if he ever got back to Sgt. It's been a while. Actually that Haunted Tank scene was a rip-off of another scene where the Tank sinks a submarine while unloading from an LST. Dean - I'm sorry I won't be at Origins. Send me a postcard from Philly! ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 140 Wed Jun 21, 1995 J.BYRNE2 [Jim Byrne] at 22:55 EDT Re: The Haunted Tank My all time favourite scene was when the tank CO is fighting hand to hand with a German supertank (150mm+ main gun with a co-axially mounted 88mm) and points his .45 down the barrel, pulls the trigger and... Gott im Himmel..you guessed it, up she goes... I also really liked the one shot frontal kills against Tigers. I always felt that the 37mm was vastly underrated. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 141 Thu Jun 22, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:56 EDT JC: Actually, if our timing is right, the games will be on store shelves the day the show opens. Haunted Tank: Ahhh, gripping realism. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 142 Thu Jun 22, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 17:57 EDT A quick update on timing: 1) The mag is still held up here awaiting the green light from the post office...Shirley has all the labels on, all we need is the postmaster's thumbs up and they are gone...when that will be, I can't say. 2) The pre-order copies of BW and Tunisia are slated for shipment next week starting on the 27th. Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 143 Thu Jun 22, 1995 C.COFFEY3 [chip] at 18:51 EDT Boy Guys: You are really dredging up some great comic memories. I remember the Haunted Tank as an M5 with Jeb Stuart always showing up to offer advice. I also remember Sgt. Rock with all the gang: Bulldozer, Ice Cream Soldier, Jackie and the rest. Does anyone out there remember Johnny Cloud the P51 jockey who had the spirit of Crazy Horse haunting his plane, or Enemy Soldier which showed us WWII from the German side. One more question, why were all the German uniforms, vehicles, and weapons dark blue? Dean, I won't be at Origins either but will send in the bucks. How long will the $32.00 bargain last? Take Care, Chip Coffey ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 144 Thu Jun 22, 1995 M.BUTTAZONI at 21:27 EDT Dean, In Yom Kippur can the Egyptian Engineers start the game setup in Bridge "mode" ? Maurice. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 145 Thu Jun 22, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 21:33 EDT Dean - Just don't get caught with your pants down like XTR did with their mag mailing. Yeah I might order BW or Tunisia if that special discount will last for a while. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 146 Thu Jun 22, 1995 D.MANN8 [Doug Mann] at 21:43 EDT Perry & Dean, My wife & I will be at Gettysburg before Origins, too, but I'm not sure we'll be able to catch an 8:00 a.m. start. We'll try to catch up with you -- somebody wear their Gamers Tshirt (I don't have one --yet). Doug Mann ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 147 Fri Jun 23, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:57 EDT The special pricing will last for a short time after Origins (it is listed on the flyer we will be sending out in a couple of weeks. Maurice: Nope, they start with their bridges down...engineer side up...un-b ridged...there is no good way to phrase it, but you getidea. Mailing: I hope to not get caught with my pants down, but I am at the whim of the USPO when it comes to second class permits and regs...now th Doug: If you can make it that will be great...you'll be able to recognize us pretty easily. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 148 Fri Jun 23, 1995 J.BROSHOT at 22:59 EDT Besides the Haunted Tank and Sgt. Rock, I remember buying a comic about featuring the Marines defending a Pacific Island against an endless stream of "Imperial Marines" ala Guadalcanal. I forget the title or the names of the two heros (bear with me this was in the very early 60s). If I got this straight we should wait until after ORIGINS (those of us who can't make it), to order the new stuff? Jim Broshot ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 149 Sat Jun 24, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 09:14 EDT Jim, I think that you can go ahead and order the new stuff - pre-orders begin shipping next week. The games won't be in stores until the week of Origins, however. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 150 Sat Jun 24, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 10:29 EDT Jim, Dave's right on that one...pre-orders next week, store copies at the beginning of Origins. The last shreds of the great PO magazine debacle have cleared up and the dynamic duo (Sara and Shirley) promise me all copies will be out the door by Tuesday. Sara and I will be oof on a little weekend away from the Ruggers, so I'll be off-line until Tuesday myself...see ya then. Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 151 Tue Jun 27, 1995 S.VANCE4 [Steve] at 21:24 EDT It's the small things, and here's what I mean. My package from The Gamers was waiting for me when I got home today. Inside were Tunisia and Black Wednesday (which I've not yet broken the shrink on, wanting to savor every moment of anticipation) AND my copy of Operations. Much has been said about The Gamers' ability to keep to a publishing schedule, about the look of their games, the unique design approach. But there's one other small thing that I think deserves notice: they think of their customers as people, and know them (as well as one can without ever meeting). They know not only that I preordered two games from them, but that I am an Operations subscriber as well. By enclosing the magazine with the order, rather than lumping it with the batch sent to the post office, they acknowledge that I am an individual, something more than a similar name on two separate lists. I like that. Thanks. ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 152 Wed Jun 28, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:57 EDT Steve: Thank you for the comments...I'll refrain from pointing out we wanted to save a buck by piggybacking the mag with the rest of your order... :) I am surprised you got your games so quick...they just went out. I hope you like the games... Enjoy! Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 153 Wed Jun 28, 1995 M.LOCHTEFEL1 at 22:19 EDT Dean, I will be attending Origins this year and look forward to seeing you guys there (as well as picking up a copy of BW and possibly Tunisia)! I tried to get into the Yom Kippur tournament and got shut out. I noticed that the book only listed 4 entrants could get into this tournament. I have two questions: 1) Will I be able to get into the event on Thursday morning because of a typo in the book? 2) Will you guys being running any other tournaments besides YK and Tunisia? Thanks Mike L ------------ Category 4, Topic 43 Message 154 Thu Jun 29, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 09:49 EDT Mike: They listed it for only four guys??? No, that's not right, Owen Fuller (who is running it) will work it out for you. The tournies they should have listed are: YK and Tunisia (which they got) and GB (which they didn't). Also, with the tournies being run in our game room, there will be the opportunity to set up ad hoc things as players express an interest in them. (And volunteers come forward to manage them.) Dean ------------ Games RoundTable Category 4, Topic 43 Sent on 6/29/1995 at 8:57p Samurai, I used to have a bunch British WWII comic books. They were very different then US stuff. I took a slide of the burrito last year. It was bigger then I expected. However, no photo can show the grease streaming out once the burrito is rotated 90 degrees toward one's mouth. The thing is truly deadly. I am looking forward to another one this fall. Doug, I don't have one as red is not my best color. Being partly color blind, I guess I prefer white. I will have on a goofy looking hat with very wide brims. It keeps the sun of my skin cancer prone skin. I will have to wear one of my Calif t-shirts. Steve, What slave labor did you perform to get your game so early? Wah!! Mike, On Friday, Karl (from Belgium) and I will play YK so you are welcome to tell us what we are doing wrong. Origins, I would like to play Tunisia (not super competitive) or BW (I can ref any TCS stuff). I may be bringing a beta of Wig's GD 42 game if he gets me the map and I assemble the counters. He got ill last night when I told him I only had yellow blanks for the Germans. :-) Perry ------------