************ Topic 7 Sat Feb 02, 1991 DIPLOMACY-1 at 23:31 EST Sub: GMT Games GMT Games is the latest wargame company to join GEnie. 1 new messages. ************ ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 252 Sat Jul 29, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:08 EDT I've seen the (somewhat off-color) proofs of the 3-DoG maps . . . very, very impressive. It's as if Simonitch and Barber got married. Great detail but very clear . . . and wait'll you see Devil's Den!! Now, all we need is for the printers to get their colors straight . . . .RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 253 Sat Jul 29, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner] at 10:06 EDT > I've seen the (somewhat off-color) proofs of the 3-DoG maps... What does that mean? Did someone replace the place names with curses? Are there dirty jokes written in the CRT tables? Sounds like an interesting game. :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 254 Sat Jul 29, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 16:23 EDT Gives "Little Round Top" a whole new meaning, doesn't it? ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 255 Sun Jul 30, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:25 EDT Just waity'll you see BIG Round Top . . . and the game lends a qwhole new meaning to "Devil's Den" . . . . you folks have to get out more. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 256 Sun Jul 30, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 12:52 EDT So what's the latest timetable on 3DoG, anyway, i.e. how much longer must I salivate? -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 257 Sun Jul 30, 1995 J.PETRANOVI1 [Jim P.] at 19:00 EDT What are the GBoH plans again? What games and modules are coming out? I'ld like to see some modules (or games) on battles of the early Roman Empire to fill the gap between the rise and fall. The conquest and rebellion in Britian should supply at least one battle. There nust have been some civil war battles worth while. Also, is there any chance of an English Civil War game? Some of the battles sound quite balanced and many were fairly small. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 258 Mon Jul 31, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:27 EDT JC, 3-DoG ships out today (Monday) . . .even as we speak, copies are winging their way to those who pre-ordered. Shipments to distrbutors will be several days later. (Diadochoi also ships today . . . .) Visually, at least, 3-DoG is a feast . . . hope it plays as well as it looks. The next GBoH entry (after Diadochoi, the module for Alex), is SAMURAI, which is on the schedule for either Xmas or February, depending on when Gene wants to publish the Bellum card game . . . . modules should be appearing on Jugurtha (Caesar), Tercio (Lion), etc., altho lord knows when. We have decided to package Alesia with the three major battles of the Gallic Wars and publish it, along with all of Caesar's Gallic legions, as a self-contained game (not module), The Gallic Wars. Where that fits intop the publication schedule, along with Cataphract (Lat Roman) and Protector (EngCivWar) is anybody's guess . . . as for specific battles of the heyday of the Empire, its tough to find anything approaching "good". We do have some stuff on the 69 AD battles, (Cremona, I think), but we couldn't muster up enuf enthusiasm out of the gate . . .and please don't ask for Teuterburgerwald; it's a non-event gamingly. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 259 Mon Jul 31, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 14:06 EDT JC: For their sake, I hope it is shipping today. Mark Olson, who would like the game now at the published price rather than later for $5 :-) ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 260 Mon Jul 31, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 18:55 EDT I can't resist... Would those pre-pub orders include shipping of any playtest copies? I confess to being an "I want my Maypo" kinda guy on this one, fellas. Rest assured, Rich, this is the most successful of the GBACW incarnations yet - and with the coolest map. It's gonna be a winner. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 261 Mon Jul 31, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 20:27 EDT No Teutoburger Wald?!?!? After all the fun I had with the Decision Games' one in Four Battles of the Ancient World, I can't believe it. I mean, once when I was playing it, a Roman actually managed to run away a little bit before he caught a spear in the back. I was excited. That's the ticket. This is a battle with all the play balance and appeal of My Lai. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 262 Tue Aug 01, 1995 M.REED31 [Mike] at 01:04 EDT Richard, I was always interested in whether the GBoH series was close to the scale of AH's Siege of Jerusalem. After all, that would be a ready made map for a module, and a neat situation to boot. Not to say that the original game isn't good in its own right, but just thinking out loud here. (Since AH's for sale, who knows....) :-) Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 263 Tue Aug 01, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 04:35 EDT All pre-purchased 3-DoGs are on their way!! (Sorry, all you vultures, sitt- ting atop the delivery truck, drooling heavily onto the bills of lading, but gene got em all out . . . including the Diadochoi modules!!) They should be popping up by end of week . . . Playtester copies will be sent shortly (soory, Dave, but I'll make sure you get yours in the next wave). Mike, actually, at one time, we had configured the two-map Alesia with two other sieges on the reverse mapsides: Jerusalem and Tyre. Alesia, however, is now in the big Gaul package; we haven't abandoned Jeru and Tyre; we're waiting to see the reaction to siege warfare for this system, as they are tricky stuff to do (well). Jim W. . . . we're saving Tootburger for our Inept Losers Quad . . . inclu- des such great playing games as the aforementioned TBWald, Lake Trasimene, Carrhae . . .and I'm sure we can find one other instance of classic ineptitude, altho maybe Doc D beat us to the punch with his Harper's Ferry bit. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 264 Tue Aug 01, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 11:15 EDT Sorry to have been off-line for so long, guys. As you might imagine, I've been a tad pre-occupied. As Richard noted above, all pre-order copies of 3-Dog and Diadochoi shipped yesterday. Graphics-wise, if 3-Dog isn't the best we've done yet, I'm not sure what is. And I think we've finally worked the bugs out of this LIM system. And does it play! I'm not promising FAST, mind you (although the Little Round Top scenario is pretty quick, if you can figure out how to get the rebs through that godawful terrain), but I don't think fans of regimentallevel ACW stuff will be at all disappointed. I played Little Round Top again last night, and noticed one item that might trip you up in the rules. It's one of those things that's hidden away, but not explicityl stated. Here goes: Any unit that is in the ZOC of an enemy unit may use Withdrawal Movement, regardless of efficiency status, even if out-of-command. I'm pretty behind on my e-mail, but will get to it all within the next couple of days. I'm officially "on vacation" now (which is why I got to play 3-Dog for "fun" last night), but will be around to check on here until Friday, when I head to the mountains (clean air, the smell of pine, and plenty of trout in those streams!) for a week. Most of you should get your games Wednesday, though some of you (in CA) may get them today. So, if you have questions, I'll be here until Friday. After that, Richard can help you while I'm gone (hint: don't ask him Line of Sight questions! ). Enjoy! Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 265 Tue Aug 01, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 18:50 EDT Losers' Quad? I can't wait. Of course, there are other situations that could so simulated; Ticonderoga 1775 is a good candidate. I even have a name; "Knock Knock." Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 266 Tue Aug 01, 1995 S.CLARKE8 [Scott] at 19:48 EDT 3Dog sure looks good. Did you guys rush on the maps though? I noticed that it's up to the customer to trim the maps so they will overlay each other (I've never been great at doing a neat job at that personally). Other than that a nice job (the best Gettysburg map I've seen for sure), and looking forward to playing it. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 267 Tue Aug 01, 1995 A.LEWIS16 [Marmaduke] at 21:59 EDT Okay DiF players, I have a challenge. I just played the 1942 daylight campaign and scored 49 Hit Points with 4 Bombers at Medium Altitude on the Amsterdam factory complex. This was a two player game so I have a witness who will of course deny it totally. The challenge is can anyone beat that kind of bombing accuracy? FYI, I bombed the same complex at the end of the campaign and got only 31 Hit Points with 5 Bombers at LOW alti- tude. Andy ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 268 Tue Aug 01, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner] at 22:29 EDT Duke, You bringing it with you to ACon (I assume you're going). If so, let's get a game of the playtesters and rule cleaner uppers extraodinaire (if we find time). :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 269 Tue Aug 01, 1995 B.RIGGS1 [Entropy] at 23:13 EDT I got 3-DOGS today. Graphically beautiful! Gratz to GMT for what hasta be the best Gettysburg map yet! Counters are also _very_ nice. If only I had time to set it up and play. Ah well. (Some of the place names are almost impossible to read on the map though, like that big wooded hill...Little something er the other....) ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 270 Tue Aug 01, 1995 R.PHARES1 at 23:52 EDT Hey Gene! 3DoG arrived down here in San Diego today. looks good! Rich ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 271 Wed Aug 02, 1995 D.TTREASURE at 02:41 EDT GENE I've got a great game of LOST VICTORY going. The only question we've got is what are the chances LENINGRAD '41 will be published before the year is out? Really having fun with this. Thanks ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 272 Wed Aug 02, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:06 EDT It's not that there was any "haste" in running off 3-DoG - we wouldn't have sent it out were it not ready - but there were reports of Gene being at Fresno airport round midnight, Saturday, watching the skies. Think I'll brinbg my copy to Avaloncon . . . .RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 273 Wed Aug 02, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 09:56 EDT Glad you guys like the looks of 3-Dog. Anybody played the campaign yet? D.TTREASURE, I'm not sure yet whether LEningrad will be one of the fall releases. I'll know after the 15th, when we'll make the final decisions on what's coming out by the end of the year. Glad you're having fun with Lost Victory! Andy, Don't try to impress us with how often you blasted a defenseless, immovable target! What we want to know is how are you, mano a mano, in a swirling dogfight, just you and Chuck YEager in your P-51's, against waves after wave of the Luftwaffe's finest? And how many Me-262s have ya downed lately, huh? Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 274 Wed Aug 02, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 15:32 EDT It's here! My pre-pub 3DoG arrived today! First impressions: It's BIG [what else?] The map is nearly exquisite. My only initial negative reaction is that good light/good eyes may be necessary to distinguish rough woods from regular woods. Well and little known place names abound on the three maps, but are printed in unobtrusive type -- a great touch for historic/geographic "feel". The counters are colorful while the information they contain is clearly presented. Counter clippers may be concerned by the way that unit designations tend to crowd the upper right corners, but if you still MUST clip, there is a small amount available. Background colors are butternut for the Rebs, lightish blue for the Yanks, all color coded by a bar across the type to show organization and command. I'm not sure whether Rodes' Division and the Yankee XII Corps would appreciate the pink bars they received! Wait, what's this? Aaaaaaaaargh! They've designated the 3rd Arkansas of the Texas brigade as "3 AK" -- the Third ALASKA!! When will game designers and publishers learn that AK is Alaska, AR is Arkansas, AZ is Arizona? [Hint to Dave Powell -- get it right for Champion Hill!]. As a native of Arkansas, it will be depressing to push that Alaskan unit around. Would that GMT could follow The Gamers example and print a small gift countersheet of counter errata and optional units. I WANT A THIRD ARKANSAS! I have no familiarity with the LIM system, so it will take some delving in the rule book before I could comment fairly. The rule book is 36 pages with an index on the back cover -- examples are sprinkled throughout. The scenario book contains scenarios on Herr's Ridge, Day One, Little Round Top, Day Two, Pickett's Charge (with fair warning as to play balance) and finally The Battle of Gettysburg. For those who are concerned about the location of Richard Berg's distinguished autograph, it has been carefully located on the inside of the top cover of the game so as to not mar or deface game components. However, that location also makes it unsuitable for framing! There's a lot to chew on here, but the eating looks good! I'm sure more informed commentary will follow ... Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 275 Wed Aug 02, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 20:47 EDT Stu, Point received, and understood. I have no idea why I have such a recurring mental block about AR vs. AK, but am glad to see others similarly afflicted. Now I can form a support group... Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 276 Wed Aug 02, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 20:50 EDT Okay, okay, I confess that I didn't pre-order, but I'm ready to drop the full $55 or however much it is, once 3DoG hits the stores. So, my question is, when does that happen?? -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 277 Wed Aug 02, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 23:31 EDT Dave, Just had to tweak you a bit on that one. I just didn't want to see the state of Alaska in the background of that Arkansas unit in Champion Hill! I suppose the confusion of AR vs AK stems from the fact that Arkansas DOES have a "k" in it, while Arizona does not. So it seems that AR should go to Arizona, but it of course gets the AZ. If any of the good people of GMT join your support group, impress upon them that a great way to make amends, friends and loyal customers is to print that annual gift countersheet of errata and optional counters. Of course, they may not make any other errors ... Now if I can just find a month of Sundays to play this beast! Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 278 Thu Aug 03, 1995 J.PETRANOVI1 [Jim P.] at 02:08 EDT Bummer about no Roman-British battles likely, but I guess the Britons probably just had a bunch of wimpy chariots and stuff anyway. Tootoburger and Carhay never much appealed to me. If the sieges ever are worth playing, a hypothetical siege of Rome by hannibal or Alex or something could be fun. I have my doubts about most sieges--unless the attacker is under pressure to assault quickly, they are kind of dull. Barrage, barrage, if the defender is dumb enough to sortie, wipe him out, barrage, assualt at last, give and take, the defender breaks (or he doesn't), the attacker takes a hex, the game ends. Or maybe we have a mutual starvation track, whomever gets to zero first loses. Or,..,well,..., nothing. Toot starts looking good compared to this. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 279 Thu Aug 03, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:10 EDT Stu: GMT usually provides replacement counters for its games in issues of C3i. I'm sure any counter "errata" will be handled that way here. I, too, have the Powell Disease . . . or Razorbacks go North to Alaska. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 280 Thu Aug 03, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 08:58 EDT Stu: Geez, and Gene's from that little state which still has a place called Hope... Now I just have to figure out how to fit that outline of Alaska on that AK counter...that is gonna make those Delaware counters look like misshapen pin heads...same thing goes for Texas :) Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 281 Thu Aug 03, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 20:10 EDT RHB, Thanks for the tip on errata counters in issues of C3i. Problem is I've never seen a copy of that magazine. My local hobby store apparently doesn't carry it. Regardless, I'm happy to see that GMT pursues the same "customer first" policy as The Gamers! Do you expect that the 3rd Alaska counter in 3DoG will be a likely candidate for errata replacement? If so, how will I know when C3i will bear that fruit and how could I obtain a copy? Please don't say "Subscribe"; my wife (our principal bread winner) just got riffed. :-( Dean, Naw, Clinton took Hope with him to Washington where the Republicans are seeking to privatize it! If any bitterness is detected in that comment, please see the last line in the message to Richard. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 282 Thu Aug 03, 1995 P.PERLA at 20:22 EDT Well, i got my copy of 3DoG, as did Ed McGrady. I have seen a lot of compliments about the map. So, I have an unpleasant question. Is it just our copies that show mucho registraion problems with some of the color? Particularly the streams seem to misaligned with a fair amount of white showing through at the edges or fof to the sides. Also some of the trees printed as white, and on others the brown/red registration seems askew. I am hoping that we just got a couple of bad maps and that they are not all like that. Am I just being fussy again, or did we really get some rejects? Counters look great. Have not had a chance to look at the rules yet. Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 283 Thu Aug 03, 1995 J.COBB7 [bismarck] at 21:24 EDT I received my Gettysburg" Aug2. The map is stunning!! I also got the autograph of the designer: a Turkish nobleman, Rikuuult Bey. I have it in front of me. Jim Cobb ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 284 Thu Aug 03, 1995 S.CLARKE8 [Scott] at 21:50 EDT Already a question for Gettysburg - What is the definition of a "command" as it pertains to, for example, requiring all units of a command to use Tactical MOvement. Is this a division (as in any units with LIMs)? If so, isn't this problematic for a division like Heth's which arrives on the board piecemeal? (First stab at it underway, so probably more questions will pop up later, though things seem to be pretty clear so far overall). ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 285 Thu Aug 03, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 22:09 EDT A couple of more questions about 3DoG: 1) I also had some of P. Perla's map registration problems, ones that I would consider regrettable, but minor. They are not extensive on my maps. However, two issues arise -- a. Hexes A 6714, 6814, 6913 and 7014 (along Willoughby's Run) are filled with white spots. Were these meant to be trees (as in woods) or boulders (as in rough)? b. Similarly, hex C 3825 has boulders and white spots -- are these unfilled boulders or unfilled trees? Is this hex a rough woods hex? 2) Rule 5.2.3 says a unit must stop when entering an enemy ZOC. Rule 5.1.4 says that changing facing is considered movement, while 5.1.5 says that a unit can change facing one vertex in enemy ZOC. So, can a phasing unit enter an enemy ZOC, then change facing one vertex as part of the same movement phase? Thanks, Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 286 Thu Aug 03, 1995 J.PETRANOVI1 [Jim P.] at 23:37 EDT I just got 3DoG! It actually is beginning to seem weird to get a GMT game when it comes out. Any, as usually with GMT, seems great so far. I, for one, consider 2 letter state abbreviations an anacronism in the Civil War--probably Arkansas was neither AR nor AK in those days. Any of you anti-AK guys know otherwise? Just hoping for Diadochhi to show up soon! ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 287 Fri Aug 04, 1995 W.RAMSAY [Bill] at 05:09 EDT Gene, Got Gettysburg today. Physically, the nicest game you've done yet, except.. why the heck do I have to cut the map?????? Regards, Bill ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 288 Fri Aug 04, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:27 EDT The infamous "Whilloughby White Dots" are nothing . . . just an aberration. Apparently they did not show up on the original, but did as the maps ran. Luckily they're "off the beaten path", to be sure . . . .as for your maps, Peter, I have no idea. There's a lot of detail herein, and every once in a while there may be some misregistratrion. Not on my map, tho . . .so I'm not sure to what you refer. Do note, however, that what the "legend" refers to as "runs" the rules call brooks (the ones thru the hexes). Also, the design of the breastworks counters got changed after they left my perusal; they're supposed to reflect a two-side hex configuration (not 3). "Command" refers to the brigade, as each brigade goes separately. Stue, re changing facing. A unit that moves into an enemy ZOC must stop; no facing change at that time. If it starts in an enemy ZOC it may change facing, as per the ulre you mentioned, and it may change facing as Reaction - as the rules also state. I, too, do not like the modern 2-letter state abbrev's. But they're the ones that fit. Not sure why they didn't "cut" the maps (I cut mine as follows: westernmost 1/2 hex of Map B - the Gburg map - and top vertex of the C map; that does it es it fine. Probably has something to do with Gene being at the airport Sun- day nite waiting for the maps to arrive . . . . RHB Jim C: You must have gotten one of the readable signatures . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 289 Fri Aug 04, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 10:28 EDT I, too, was surprised that we have to cut the maps. AS any of you who have bought other of our multi-mappers know, we usually go for cutting the hex grid with about a half a hex left over for overlap. This one, though unintentional, is my fault. We used a new artist (who did a great job, IMO), and I never specifically told him to do the overlap the way we usually do. He was working with Mark Simonitch on final print and cut details, and I just ASSUMED. As usual, assuming got me just what my 7th grade teacher told me it would. Sorry, guys, for the trouble. Peter, Did Richard address all your Q's? The maps do have a few white spot "knockout" problems, and my maps have a tiny bit of white behind some of the brooks. But I haven't seen any problems that sound as major as the ones you're describing. Having done some major work on how to present this LIM system, I'm very interested in your feedback, especially from you guys who have played Loo. Do you have any trouble figuring out the sequencing of who does what, when? I'll check back on tonight (Friday) before I leave, then I'm out of touch for about ten days. Enjoy! Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 290 Fri Aug 04, 1995 J.COBB7 [bismarck] at 20:07 EDT Rich, Yeah, I got an early one, 101. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 291 Sat Aug 05, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 12:12 EDT Richard or other GMT types, Perhaps I am willfully disdaining the Design Note under rule 8.3 Line of Sight, but one aspect of the LOS rules makes no sense to me whatsoever. The third bullet point under rule 8.3.2 says, "Woods and infantry and cavalry units ... are treated as being one-half a level higher than the hex they are in." Were woods really that short at Gettysburg? I really can't see treating woods as a half-level LOS block equivalent to infantry/cavalry. At most, this suggest trees at Gettysburg were no taller than around 10'. It sets up some LOS situations that, well, defy my sense of reason. Suppose the notorious Third Alaska unit is firing at a Yankee unit situated one level higher than itself and two hexes away. The intervening hex is woods. As I read the LOS rules, LOS is NOT blocked in this situation, but if both units were at the same level of elevation, LOS would be blocked. A) Are these interpretations correct? B) Do they make sense? C) Do I just need to re-read the Design Note and shut up? Thanks in advance, Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 292 Sat Aug 05, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 15:22 EDT Gene, Do you have any extra SPQRII rulebooks, and how much would it cost? Looks like my copy has gone to gaming heaven, unless I can find out where I left it. Thanks, Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 293 Sat Aug 05, 1995 P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog] at 15:48 EDT 286-399 ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 294 Sat Aug 05, 1995 P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog] at 16:08 EDT Bill, I was really upset to pay $45 and realize I had to cut 3 maps to fit. This morning I laid them out to start and realized I need clear instructions as to which map goes on top of which. There are inconsistencies between the map edges so GMT is going to have to tell us which is the correct map edge. Gene, Don't ever pull this map border stuff again! Richard, Map C-what are the white dots in hex 3825? Trees or more rocks? What are the special hex sides on the bottom rows of map C? Can one move thru a staging area to use these map edge hexes? West Map-should the white boxes be buildings? West Map-what are the white dots in 6714 - 7014? Trees? East Map-hexes 1733-1933 have no slope but the same hexes on west map have slope hexsides. Which is correct? East map-5801 and 6001 have white backgrounds. Perry ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 295 Sat Aug 05, 1995 S.CLARKE8 [Scott] at 17:07 EDT Here are some Gettysburg questions: 1. If a defender elects to continue shock, is he now considered the attacker, and would post-shock disorder apply to him as well? 2. Use of tactical movement: must ALL units in brigade use this or only MOVING units (i.e. does it preclude a rally or resupply action). 3. pg 7 sequence of play - RE units can only move or rally 4.3.3 - RE units can move, rally OR resupply Which is correct? 4. Change of facing for routing units is automatic (doesn't reduce their rout mp)? 5. THere is no way to resupply a supply wagon, right? (I seem to lose artillery ammo at an extraordinary rate, esp when firing several units combined). ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 296 Sat Aug 05, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 17:59 EDT Richard, You can relax. By number 303, that scrawl could have been anybody :-) Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 297 Sun Aug 06, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 14:35 EDT Another (probably stupid) question about the Shock Procedure in 3DoG: If A1, B1 and C1 are the designated shock attacks: A) Are the remaining steps for the shock procedure (2 through 6) conducted for A1, then repeated for B1 and C1 in turn; OR B) Is step 2 of the shock procedure applied to A1, B1 and C1, then step 3 applied to A1, B1 and C1, etc? I think I'm confused by the language that says in step 1, "Designate all targets of Shock ...", then in the paragraph following step 6, the language states "... each step must be completed -- for each unit -- before the next is undertaken." The phrase "for each unit" sort of implies option B above. Which is correct? Thanks, Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 298 Sun Aug 06, 1995 S.CLARKE8 [Scott] at 20:07 EDT Stu - Although not an official answer on your question, think you might be waiting awhile for it, so I think your answer is the "B" case. If you have ever played any of the GBoH series, it is the same concept. Basically he is trying to have all your melee's resolve simultaneously, so there is not an unintended blitzkrieg effect. Hence you do the first step for every combat, then the second step... and so on, so that theoretically by the time you are retreating and advancing it is more or less simultaneous. Meanwhile I am hard at work on generating more 3Dog questions myself. Found the answer to one of my previous ones in the errata (duh!). Also started the first day again after playing thru the #1 scenario. That one taught me that artillery is king! That one battery sure causes a lot of trouble for Heth's division (assuming no ammo problems). 1. If a unit is disordered in the midst of movement, is his MA for the phase that which he began with or his new disordered MA? 2. Fatigue - does "movement" include all types of involuntary movement (retreat, rout, advance after combat)? 3. Slope fire modifiers - does this ONLY apply for fire between adjacent hexes? Otherwise I'm not sure I understand the -1 down slope modifier. 4. Can a brigade leader rally a unit he is stacked with, move to another unit and then rally that one? Or was the "auto-rally" intended to only benefit one hex per turn? 5. Terrain chart says "Up One Level" (Gradual slope) is possible blocking terrain. Rules say gradual slope has no effect on LOS. Which iKYh-]j$PHH**BWV.Y7ce chart seems to be mistaking Army/Division phase for ME/RE in terms of when you can take certain actions. 7. Can artillery sections stacked together combine fire? Per rules seemed like no but was this intended? Otherwise gives an even bigger advantage to Union and for that matter doesn't make much sense (to me anyhow :) ). 8. 8.3.4 seems to allow non-reciprocal LOS - is this intended? The way I read this rule, infantry standing one or two hexes in fbRot of artillery can screen off that artillery - it can fire long-range say at enemy artillery positions, and the target cannot fire back(!). ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 299 Sun Aug 06, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 23:28 EDT Scott, Thanks for the quick, if unofficial response. I don't own any of the GBoH series of games, so I'm unfamiliar with GMT's [Gene's/RHB's] preferred treatment of shock combat. Any thoughts on my LOS question? Woods being equivalent to infantry and cavalry seems VERY strange to me -- were all the trees in Adams County stunted? The buildings of Gettysburg were taller than all the trees in the area? I'm glad to see someone else delving into the rulebook and charts. I have only been plowing through the former, so I haven't detected any of the anomalies that you mention. You have a sharp eye! I also have yet to set the game up -- a new baby and simultaneous job loss in the family plays h*ll with gaming. Uh, where did you find the errata? On your question #7, I see Rule 8.2.3, which sez that "Artillery may combine fire if they are within one hex of their Artillery Brigade Leader and all are firing with the same Range DRM." I suppose that this means sections stacked together may combine fire if those conditions in 8.2.3 hold true, as long as Rule 6.2.3 isn't violated. As to Question #4, Leader Auto-Rally, I would suppose that it is intended only to benefit one hex per turn. Otherwise, it seems that rolling to rally would rarely ever have to happen. However, Rule 9.7.6 suggests that perhaps he could rally one unit with which he is stacked before he begins movement, then move to and END his movement at another unit to auto-rally one more. I guess we'll have to wait for the official response. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 300 Mon Aug 07, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:53 EDT Ah hhhhh . . . the questions are rolling in . . . 1. To cut the maps (annoying, eh wot) . . trim the easternbmost half row off the B map, and the top (small) vertex from the N edge of the C map. That does it nicely. Gene explained the white dots. That corkscrew road at bottom of C is used for off-map movement, covered in the rules. I will get toquestions in one group, altho Scott C's reaction seemed correct. One piece of "errata" (more of a change of mind): an individual unit in a brigade may use Withdraw movement even if others in briugade do not. However, no unit in that brigade may use Tactical Movement - and viceversa. We played the first day of the battle at Avaloncon . . . quite a crowd reaction to the game. I sold over a dozen copies and didn't even have any to sell (sort of an on-spot re-order!). I'll try to answer q's by tomorrow . . . but will wait about a month for an official errata. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 301 Mon Aug 07, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:55 EDT Oh, yes, forgot the LOS bit . . . I think we can consider trees as being one full level higher than the hex they're in. (The "woods" at the time of the battle were rather thin, by the way, and you could probably see "thru" them, if there weren't too many . . . however, as to exactly how, how much, and where . . . who knows?!) RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 302 Mon Aug 07, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 20:15 EDT Richard, Ah, yes, life is so good for you now, what with a smoothly flowing stream of 3DoG questions meandering past your viewshed. Rather idyllic, yes? Although the LOS response regarding the proper height of trees seemed a bit off-handed, without the official imprimatur of Errata -- Thank You! Now the gentle folk of Gettysburg have suitable shade for their residences. Eagerly looking forward to your responses to the other questions, Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 303 Mon Aug 07, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner(0-5)] at 20:15 EDT Catching up since ACon - RE:the AL vs AK debate. As Jim and Richard note, the 2 letter state acronyms weren't in use during the ACW. And in fact, the US didn't even own Alaska (much less the confederacy) during the ACW. It was bought a couple years later. So it must be a period thing. You know, historical accuracy for as much as can fit on a chit. Boy is 3 Days pretty... :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 304 Mon Aug 07, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 22:33 EDT Grinner, Of course the two letter postal state designations weren't in use during the Civil War. But as long as the designers wish to squeeze state of origin for the units on the counters, they have little choice but to use the modern two letter system. As the only Arkansas regiment in the A.N.Va (and a fine regiment at that!), I just hate seeing those Arkansans being misattributed. I can't wait to see the next game in the system, but I don't believe they'll be able to match the 3DoG map in terms of depth of research! Rick Barber (and Missy at the tavern!) deserves a lot of credit for his (their) efforts. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 305 Mon Aug 07, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 23:11 EDT Gene, Richard, or anyone who'd care to respond: Not a complaint, but just wondering; any special reason for the choice of counter finish on 3DoG? This is the first game I've seen in a while that did NOT use the gloss finish. Also waiting for the answers to Stu's questions, Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 306 Tue Aug 08, 1995 P.KELLER3 [Pete] at 02:26 EDT Gene, I just purchased 8th Airforce. On the Schweinfurt Raids, how many B-17s are the Allied player given? Pete P.S. Please do not hold games up for conventions, I just acquired the game last weekend and people who preordered it have had it for over a month. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 307 Tue Aug 08, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:30 EDT It's the 3-Doggy Dog Answer Man . . . firstly, have to ask Rodger MacG why he chose the finish he did for the counters. Personally, I can't tell the difference. Then again, my eyes most assuredly aint what they used to be. First off. MAJOR RULES CHANGE. (Well, not so major, but I want you to pay attention.) Artillery goes Ammo Low/No ONLY on the '5' DR; NOT on the others. However, when using Rapid Fire, you DO use the other two DRs (it is no longer automatic for Rapid Fire). And even better for you rebs, 1 AAP will supply all guns in any one battery if stacked together. ( ath I did to arrive at original; found mistake - forgot to divide by two for the Ammo Low status . . . oops. Then again, none of the playtesters ever complained!!) Answering Scott Clarke's q's: Units disordered during movement do assume the new, lower disordered MA. Fatigue for movement covers ALL types of movement, including Rout! The slope modifiers apply regardless of where situated between target and firer. (Change of level affected aim.) A brigadier can Rally unit "a", move to unit 'b' (where he has now finished movement) and rally 'b', too. Rules are right concerning gradual slope having no effect on LOS. LIM refercne Chart is NOT making any mistakes in terms of when actions can be undertaken . . . not that I can see. Artillery sections can combine fire as per 8.2.3 if they are stacked. Re the non-reciprocal LOS question: Overiding premise is that if it can see you, you can see it. If the defender opts for Shock Continuation, auto post-shock disorder does apply to him. If some of units of brigade are using TacMove all must use it - except for those not wishing to use MP's (like in Resupply, etc . . .) And remember that one unit may use Witjhdrawal while others use other types of movement, except for TacMove. TacMove andWD are mutually exclusive within the brigade. I think the "errata" enclosed with game notes that, in the Sequence, RE units may always Resupply. Change of facing for Routed units does NOT cost any MP's . . . as they head for the hills. No way to resupply a supply wagon. What you sees is what you gets. And, as noted before for Stu B, each segment of the Shock sequence is completed for all units before the next. (Brigade by brigade, that is.) All of the above will be part of the Official Errata . . .still in "the making". Hope all of this helps . . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 308 Tue Aug 08, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 20:01 EDT Thanks, 3-Doggy Dog Answer Man! Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 309 Tue Aug 08, 1995 C.PERLEBERG [Chris P.] at 20:32 EDT Hey, here it Aug. 8th and I haven't recieved my 3Dog yet. What gives? Chris P. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 310 Tue Aug 08, 1995 P.PERLA at 20:42 EDT Gene, Gregg Adams also asked me to check on his 3DoG. He has not yet received his copy. Boith Ed McGrady and i got ours. Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 311 Tue Aug 08, 1995 S.CLARKE8 [Scott] at 20:54 EDT Mr Answer Man - The CSA extends its grateful thanks for your revised artillery ammo rules. They may actually have some useable artillery left now by the time they take postions on Seminary Ridge. On the subject of artillery, what happens to it when it is disordered a 2nd time from shock - does the standard rule apply (rout = elimination) or does the #6 case for artillery control in every instance. Noticed that the shock rule for 2nd disorder did not mention particular (inf and cav units) as did the fire 2nd disorder. [btw, "what to do on that 2nd disorder" would have made a very useful chart]. My point re LIM Ref Chart was down at the bottom where it says when you can do stuff: "Construction [Army Phase only]". I thought any ME unit could do this, and units can gain ME in the division activation phase as well. Hence if you replace "Army" with "ME", and "Division" with "RE" it would make sense. Either that or the rules are wrong at 4.3 with re to what you can do while ME. Also (for Gene) how about printing a complete OOB for both sides in some issue of C3i? Might come in handy in making sure you've got all the counters for a brigade together. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 312 Tue Aug 08, 1995 P.LAZZARO [Diomedes] at 23:53 EDT Richard, several more questions regarding Big AL have arisen. 1.) If a routing unit moves through another routed unit, is the moved through routed unit eliminated? 2.) Can Cav. recover from Cohesion Hits while in formation? 3.) 8.35 refers to a unit being attacked through a vertex. exactly when does this occur? When it does occur does this apply to position superiority? 4.) For recovery and change of formation purposes, if a unit is within range of a missile unit but that missile unit is unable to "fire", (i.e. is in charge formation, it's LOS is blocked due to friendly/enemy units, etc.) may the friendly unit be allowed it's action based on the enemy unit's inability to "fire"? (I realize that the enemy missile unit does not fire but must be capable of fire at the friendly unit). The rule just states that the friendly unit must be in _range_ of an enemy missile unit. 5.) Do units which are in column formation receive CH's if just given a move order to remove their column status? 6.) Can double sized units other than PH change facing? If so can they use the Front to Flank maneuver to do so? 7.) Is there any other way in which column double sized units can change facing? 8.) Is the onus of attack in the Issus scenario on the Macedonians or Persians. I realize Darius had cut off Alex's LOCs and would assume Alex must attack across the Pinarus. For game purposes it would appear Darius's troops could not handle the river crossing w/o heavy routing from the first shock attack due to prelim. CH's accruing from terrain, adverse attack modifiers, pre shock TQs, etc. Thanks again for a great game and the fine support, and by the way I have an old SPI copy of TSS set up in my game room for over two years, we are at the end of the first day. We play a few turns every month or so. Thank goodness my wife enjoys the game... Buford was decimated, 11 Corps is still running. I am stuck with the Union and was voted down for the optional Lee infiltration rule, in which Lee alone must make an in depth penetration into the Union lines to determine the disposition and line of attack he will take on days 2 and 3 and you know what happens when old Bobby Lee is captured... Thanks, Peter Lazzaro Erin Lazzaro Mark Van Loon James Stapleton ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 313 Wed Aug 09, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:35 EDT Anyone who has not received their pre-ordered 3DoG should immediately call 1- 800-523-6111 and ask for Jewel; she's a wonder at getting this stuff straight. They were all shipped UPS (2day), so they should be trackable. Scoot, you're correct about that Construction ref; should be ME. What happenewd is that the phases used to be called ME Phase and RE Phase, but got changed as we made adjustments to system. Etc etc. And, yet again, I goofed up the LOS rule (8.3.2 I think). Basic prenmise should be: When firing uphill, stuff closer to firer blocks. When firing downhill, stuff closer to target blocks. The parallel of this is that, If you can see it, it can see you. Also, when/if playing Little Round Top scenario, footnote [a] for the CSA should note that, for purpose of the game, Longstreet may use his Div Act Rating to give ME to Semmes and Kershaw (if they're w/i range) as if McLaws were present. (Scenario is a terrain nightmare!!) Oh yes, Scott's arty question. #6 rules, Scott. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 314 Wed Aug 09, 1995 D.VOHLERS at 19:45 EDT Diadochoi seems to have been lost in the 3 DoG shuffle. Has anybody ggotten their copy? Dick ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 315 Wed Aug 09, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 21:23 EDT I haven't seen the ad yet for this game but exactly how big is it? Is it company level? Regt level etc? Man to man? Anything like Terrible Swift Sword? ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 316 Thu Aug 10, 1995 A.LEWIS16 [Marmaduke] at 06:19 EDT Hey Richard, What's the command situation for that Union artillery unit that starts the first day of 3Dogs on the map? Andy ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 317 Thu Aug 10, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:56 EDT 1. I was under the impression that all pre-ordered Diadochoi were mailed last week. Call 1-800-523-6111 to check about yours. 2. Chiu-man: same scale as TSS, same size. 3. Andy, errata now notes that any infantry brigadier can command any one battery from his overall command; any cav brigadier, any one horse artillery. However, the guns get their ME from that brigadier. Speaking of Errata, by Friday, I will have the first Official Errata Sheet (as I have to mail it off to GMT). If you want me to e-mail it to you (before I put it in Library of Limbo), let me know . . . . Have been playing Little Round Top . . . those of you who have experienced Shock Conintuation know why it's a good thing to keep some units "in Reserve". The 51 Ga (Semmes' brigade) took out 1 regiment and 2 batteries in one Shock continuation, while routing a 2nd regiment. (Of course, it was virtually destroyed in the process, but not a bad day's work.) Oh yes, also got de Trobriand AND his Replacement (next turn; stuck his head up too fast). God that's horrendous ground around the Tops and Devil's Den!!! (Several pieces of errata have emerged from this; nothing tragic, tho.,) RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 318 Thu Aug 10, 1995 WAMASTER [Sawtooth] at 06:57 EDT > They were all shipped UPS (2day), so they should be trackable. Actually Richard, __ALL__ UPS packages are trackable. And now that GroundSaver stickers get stuck on all non-air packages (air pacakges get similar ones, but different color), even ground packages are tracked as easily as air packages. Just thought you all would like to know. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 319 Thu Aug 10, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 17:28 EDT Richard, Please put me on your 3DoG Errata EMail List. Thanks a lot Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 320 Thu Aug 10, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 18:00 EDT Richard, I would like a copy of the errata, if only to see what I am missing... BTW, it looks like a group might well be playing 3-DOG at our GAMERS retreat this fall in Homer. While I doubt being able to play, I'd really like to see this one get some table-time. Participate vicariously, so to speak. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 321 Thu Aug 10, 1995 T.OLSON4 at 19:04 EDT I received my Diodocchi with 3-Dog last week. Richard, Please put me on your 3-Dog errata list. Gene, My counters from C3I # 2(Ox carts; 54th Rifle Div.,etc.) ate its way thru the bottom of the envelope and got lost. I would like to replace them. Either the counters by themselves or Ill buy the mag agin if necessary. Thanks, Tim O. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 322 Thu Aug 10, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 19:13 EDT Richard, Speaking of Little Round Top: I am setting up the scenario, and I wonder - are any Artillery Commanders supposed to be set up at start? Nearly all of Cabell's (CSA) Artillery is present, but no mention of Cabell himself. Same thing happens on the Union side of the line. I assumed that the appropriate Arty commanders should be used. Am I right? On the subject of setups - I can't find any general scenario setup rules at all...have I just missed them, or are they hors de hurry-up release? I've been making lots of assumptions in the setups, and this makes me nervous :-) Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 323 Thu Aug 10, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 19:55 EDT Richard, et.al. Spent a day last week at Gettysburg. Got a guide in the morning, went through the museum, walked Pickett's Charge and back and then climbed Little Round Top from the bottom. (You're right, by the way about the Devil's Den and, on top of that, the Slaughter Pen: damned nasty ground.) Ended the day driving around to some of the monuments I'd seen in the morning and taking a few pictures. Did some touristo things in town and then it was off to the rest of my vacation. Actually seeing the place is amazing. I should have done that years ago. Upshot of this is, I'm GOT to get a copy of 3DoG! Is it in the stores yet, or are we hearing from the pre-pubs exclusively? Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 324 Thu Aug 10, 1995 C.PERLEBERG [Chris P.] at 20:45 EDT Yes, UPS packages are trackable -- and mine tracked to the wrong address last week. Much mourning in the village. However, Jewel promised me an overnight copy. Much rejoicing in the village. Great service, Gene! Doing a good job keeping customers happy! Keep this up and you'll be as good as the Gamers ;-). BTW, put me on the errata list, there, Mr. Berg! Chris P. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 325 Thu Aug 10, 1995 M.SZARKA [Mike] at 20:57 EDT Somebody should get GMT's 800 number put in the topic header. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 326 Thu Aug 10, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 21:04 EDT Richard, I would appreciate a copy of the 3DoG errata. Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 327 Thu Aug 10, 1995 J.DUNNAM1 [JRD] at 21:38 EDT RHB Ditto here on the 3DG errata Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 328 Thu Aug 10, 1995 O.SOGARD [SOGARD] at 23:29 EDT Errata, errata! We don't need no stinkin' errata" The ghost of Sam Peckinpah (sp) tell me I do need 3 DoG errata so add me to your list and I will send you a burrito curtesy of the Gamers. SOGARD ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 329 Thu Aug 10, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 23:56 EDT RHB, Please add my e-mail address to your "Must send!" errata list! Dan, If you can still appreciate Gettysburg _despite_ all the touristo trappings, you've got to get a copy of this game! There are no McDonald's, Wax Museums or carnival towers littering this map! Oh, God. I just realized that every sentence of this message, prior to this, ended in an exclamation mark. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 330 Fri Aug 11, 1995 G.YOUNG20 [George] at 00:26 EDT Rich: I'd like the errata as well. Thanks, George ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 331 Fri Aug 11, 1995 W.HUBBARD2 [Wade] at 01:10 EDT Richard, Please send me the errata too. Wade ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 332 Fri Aug 11, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 01:16 EDT Richard, please put me on the 3-DoG errata list as well. I just ordered a copy of the game. Also, I have a question for Vance or Gene (when he gets back) about Typhoon. Why aren't truck borne MSU's permitted to move in their side's mechanized movement phase? Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 333 Fri Aug 11, 1995 P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog] at 01:18 EDT Richard, Please put me on your 3DoG errata list. Thanks, PerrDoG ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 334 Fri Aug 11, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 02:14 EDT "We don' need no steenkin' badges" came from a John Huston movie, not a Sam Peckinpah movie... ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 335 Fri Aug 11, 1995 O.SOGARD [SOGARD] at 02:49 EDT Pitman - You are absolutely correct herr Pitmeister - how could I confuse "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" with "The Wild Bunch". It would seem I need to view them once again to refresh my memory. Thanks for the wake up call. SOGARD ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 336 Fri Aug 11, 1995 A.LEWIS16 [Marmaduke] at 06:20 EDT another one for the 3DoG errata. Thank you. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 337 Fri Aug 11, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:43 EDT The infamous "steenkin badges" line also appears, with an extra added 'letter" as a rather labored, but ultimately hilarious pun/joke in the Weird Al Yankowicz movie (the title of which I cannot remember), along with the coming attractions for Conan the Librarian and Ghandi II (He's Back, and this Time He's Mad!!). It's all downhill after that, tho . . . Mark, I'm not sure what kind of specific instructions one needs to set up. Just put em in the hexes. As for artillery leaders, they get placed with any battery in their battalion, if the battalion is medntioned as a whole (e.g., Cabell's battalion). If a single battery is listed, no commander. (That's part of the errata . . . you'll notice that arty commanders are often left out of set-ups; must be a form of tubular discrimination.) I will be posting the errata this weekend (probably Sat morning). Gene is still on vacation, but the incredible Jewel can take care of viretually anything, as those who have spoken with her can tell. 3DoGs will be shipping out to distributors this weekend . . . you can always order direct from GMT (1-800-523-6111). RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 338 Fri Aug 11, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 08:27 EDT Richard: Rather than rattle off a list of (in many cases nit-picky) set up questions, I'll wait for the errata. I trust it will handle most of my concerns. Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 339 Fri Aug 11, 1995 MIH.SUPPORT [Ulrich] at 14:51 EDT Richard: Please e-mail me the 3-DoG errata. Thanks in advance! Uli ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 340 Fri Aug 11, 1995 L.PRATT [LRP] at 18:41 EDT Richard, please send me the eratta as well. Thanks, Lind ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 341 Fri Aug 11, 1995 C.PERLEBERG [Chris P.] at 19:38 EDT Stepping up to testify... Yeah, Jewel did a great job, and I got my 3DoG overnight. Good service deserves to be noted. Hallelujah! Chris P. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 342 Fri Aug 11, 1995 DENTIST [Kirk Turner] at 20:00 EDT Richard, I'd take one of dem dare eerattas to! Kirk ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 343 Fri Aug 11, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 20:02 EDT Stu: The one thing I didn't do was climb the big tower in the middle of the battlefield. I thought, "No one who was here got that view. I think I can live without it." Best view of the day: the Little Round Top from the sniper's nest above the Slaughter Pen. Coulda picked off quite a few Yanks from there... I did climb the tower on top of Culp's Hill, though. Seemed like the right thing to do at the time. Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 344 Fri Aug 11, 1995 P.DANGEL [Paul] at 20:43 EDT *** WARNING! LONG 3DOG POST FOLLOWS *** Earlier this week I spoke to the 3DOG map artist, Rick Barber, and we discussed the 3DoG maps. I read to him some of the comments and questions concering the map that have appeared here and he agreed to send me list of clarifications and corrections that he's put together since he's had the opportunity to take a close look at the printed maps. He requested me to post them on GEnie. What follows are his complete notes. I apologize for the length but Rick's perspective is unique and worth reading. "TERRAIN NOTES * 3DOG MAPS First of all, I'd like to apologize to anyone who has had any trouble interpreting the terrain on these game maps. If you read the Cartographer's Notes you'll understand that this one was somewhat of a personal Holy Grail, and no one is sorrier than me that it turned out anything less than perfect. I certainly feel that there is no place on the maps where the correct terrain interpretation _cannot_ be achieved simply by a good close look. However, I know how much I dislike having to 'decide' how the terrain works on someone else's map, and it greatly bothers me that there might be cause for question here. If you already own the game at this early date, you're well aware of the rather unfortunate and absolute nature of the deadline in getting it out the door. That promise, made with the best intentions and kept through immense labor and personal sacrifice by one of the more talented groups of professionals that I've yet worked with, came up against one of the more basic truths in our business: Game Production, in terms of design, development and graphic production, is a _very_ complicated and time consuming process and an absolute magnet for Murphy's Law! I have nothing but sympathy for anyone involved with getting a series of magazines games out the door! Having said all that, let me try to clear up a few areas which I can see might be open to misinterpretation - * GENERAL INTERPRETATION - the contour level or terrain type of any given hex is _always_ that which occupies the center-point/majority of the hex's area. NO EXCEPTIONS! i.e., a tree or two sticking over the line does _not_ a forest make! * COLOR SCHEME - I've always wanted to do a game map that showed the terrain in a more natural manner than that usually used, and I think the scheme we decided on here (dark to light in Green - not the light to dark in Brown) works well in that regard - sort of like all those wonderful wall maps we spent our elementary school years staring at. The contrast may be slightly strong, both in terms of value and color, but you have to start somewhere. First and foremost, this has to be a functioning game map, not just an artistic approximation of an aerial photograph. Especially in a game which so heavily emphasizes ranged fire and LOS, the ability to easily determine any given hex's altitude is all important. * CONTOUR LEVEL GLITCHES - Hexes A6226, A6326 & A6729 are _indeed_ the _higher_ level terrain as indicated by the contour lines. Color plates not corrected in time. * SLOPES - The elevation change from level 5 to 6 on the _west_ side of Oak Hill Ridge (B2034 to B1133) should be minor slope. [see the piece of Oak Ridge on the east edge of Map A for this - PD] * INDIVIDUAL BUILDINGS/FARMS - In my own defense, the first time I was made aware that these were to have game effect whatsoever, beyond purely historical interest, was at Avaloncon (8/5/95) while going over the finished product with the Designer. In general these should still be pretty clear, but you may still have to make a couple of judgement calls. I'd say any hex containing at least 1 full building. * WATER - The solid blue outlining and stippling didn't turn out as dark as expected so here's a couple of clarifications: * Marsh Creek - is a Stream (minor) north of A3333, and a Creek (major) everywhere south of Pfoutz's Mill (3633) except of the _east_ side of the islands at Shriver's Farm (A4430). * Rock Creek - is a Stream (minor) for its entire length on the map, except for the stretch between B5608 and B6605 (See the game's Cartographer's Notes). * Fords - Anyplace an unbridged Pike, Road, or Trail crosses a Stream or Creek is a _ford_. A Road crossing a Run simply negates the already insignificant effect of such a small trickle of water. * THOSE INFAMOUS WHITE TREES! - along the trail over Spangler's Knob to the Z.Taney farm (Map B) and on Map A, at the Teller and Pfoutz farms (A2625/3027) the Pitzer farm (A6711/6712) and those 4 hexes along Willoughby's Run. The last named grove is now offically known as the 'Fennell Forest', after my friend Charles Fennell the tour guide. A week before the project went to the printer he provided me with a full copy of the 25 sheet 1868/69 Warren Survey map, which prompted a number of small changes. Seem I altered all the plates but one - the dropout for the background - with the result see here. * Hexes A6415 & C3825 - these trees _do_ exist, just missed being filled in. * Hexes B5801 & 6001 are level 3 terrain. * MAP TRIMMING - Trim off the half hexes on the _east_ edge of Map A, so it overlaps Map B. Map C should be trimmed off just south of the sawtooth edge on the northernmost (1000) hex row. You will also want to trim back the gray border on hexes C1001 and 1053 so as to have continuity when overlapping Maps A & B. * MINOR GLITCHES NOTICED IN OVERLAPPING - * the southwest and SE hexsides of B6917 should be minor slope. * hex B7009 should be woods, as shown on C1004. Actually, hex B7008/CC1003 should be _clear_ terrain. * hexside C1001/1002 should be _steep_ slope. If any one has any other questions or comments, especially the possibility of future maps bordering these game maps, please contact me by SASE at: Rick Barber 15 Franklin Drive McSherrystown, PA 17344-1132 Thanks Rick B." Rick and I work together on many projects so I'm in weekly (sometines daily) contact with him. If anyone has any notes for him here I'll be happy to pass them on to him. Paul D. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 345 Fri Aug 11, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 22:17 EDT Where do you guys want your burritos shipped? We use a quality re- mailing service down in Tasmania for this kind of thing, so that they age well before arrival. Paul, thanks for the update from Rick - I got a chance to chat with him at Origins, and was impressed with the dedication he brought to the mapwork. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 346 Fri Aug 11, 1995 MARK.HERMAN at 22:32 EDT Just catching up on the net here. For all you Diad... fans the one piece of erratta I have found so far is in Gabiene in the runaway rule you should add, NOT subtract, three to the die roll. Other than that every- thing else looks OK. I'm off to get Epaminondas ready for C3i. Mark ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 347 Fri Aug 11, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 23:07 EDT I wouldn't climb that stupid National Tower thing if my life depended on it. It shows up for miles, sticking up like a contemptuous middle finger in the face of everyone who loves the battlefield. The view might be good, but there's no way in this world or any other that I'd give the proprietors money for their desecration. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 348 Fri Aug 11, 1995 P.LEDAKOWICH at 23:23 EDT Richard, Please send me the eratta..... Paul ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 349 Sat Aug 12, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:52 EDT Well, mark, there is the guy in Gaza who sets up with the opoonents' cavalry . . . sort of Turncoat by fiat, as it were. (Check Tleloplamus, or whatever . . . tell him to gets his ass over to the right side of the field so the game can begin . . . .) And I have had some calls about the fact that the set-up at Gaza seems to have some unusual "holes" . . . I told them that was correct. (I assume.) I will e-mailing the 3DoG errata today - minus Rick's post. By the way, I cut my maps along the B map, not the A. I think that workeed better - but the, he did em, so listen to him. I have been informed that 3DoG starts mailing to distributors beginning of next week . . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 350 Sat Aug 12, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 10:25 EDT Jim, The stupid National Tower>> Absolutely! It is an insult. The shenanigans that the owner is now doing in the effort to get rid of that monstrosity (at a huge profit, of course) are shameful. Blaring annoying Muzak at high volumes, setting up a carnival at the spot, threatening to turn it into a giant Jack O' Lantern on Halloween, then a giant Christmas tree, etc. He's trying to be as obnoxious as possible in order to force the NPS to buy it from him -- at his inflated price. It is a total disgrace. Ever since Congress stopped that mall development at Manassas back in 1987 by paying an exorbitant amount for the property, there have been a number of individuals with extremely low foreheads but a sharp eye for cash who now look at threatening Civil War sites as a wonderful speculation opportunity. Right now, there is a group wanting to plop a Formula One racetrack right on top of a portion of the Brandy Station cavalry battlefield. It appears that they will get permission to do so from the Corps of Engineers. They've always said they would sell the property, but at nearly FIVE times what they paid for it just two years ago. If the courts won't stop the project and the Corps approves the wetlands destruction and the cash is not available for his terms - - VROOM, VROOM! How's that for "in your face"? BTW, it is NOT a local owner, NOT a local decision. One of the developers lives in Sacramento, CA, the other in Maryland. Neither gives a damn about Culpepper Co. Virginia other than the money they can pump out of it. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 351 Sat Aug 12, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 14:23 EDT Richard, O Font of 3DoG Errata, Thanks for the errata. BTW, if GMT and Rick Barber are looking for a reason/excuse/opportunity to publish the eastern cavalry battlefield map for 3DoG, how about packaging it with a future GBACW module on Brandy Station? A fascinating cut and thrust battle which included some infantry on the Union side, and potentially some infantry on the CSA side. Of course, I'm not sure whether two maps at this scale could cover the key Cunningham, St. James Church and Fleetwood Hill areas. Duffie's road trip through Stevensburg would have to be ignored entirely. Kind of the bookend cavalry battles of the Gettysburg campaign. What say you - - would the market support such a module? It would be great to have a Brandy Station commemorative game/map, especially if the Formula One racetrack and all the additional development that it would entail go through. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 352 Sat Aug 12, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 16:33 EDT Richard: Thanks the errata - most of my questions seem to be answered (so far). I know how you hate LOS issues, BUT: Your clarification of LOS (8.3.4? s/b 8.3.2) seems to actually contradict the rules. 8.3.2 states exactly the opposite of your clarification. Is the errata correct? (don't you hate questions like that?) Actually, I think the errata is correct and the rules have it backwards. There also exists the possibility that the clarification DOES clarify and its just that my medication needs adjustment :-) Mark Olson Having fun w/ 3DoG anyway ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 353 Sat Aug 12, 1995 P.PERLA at 20:10 EDT Richard, I kust downloaded 42 GMT messages, most of which appear to be requests for 3DoG errata. Pleas add me to the list. I pased on the latest Glory chit pulling version to Gregg Adams, who has my copy. He seemed anxious to test it. By the way, Gregg is a Civil War research fiend. he has confirmed with several sources that Alexander's Bridge was, indeed, so thoroughly damaged by Wilder's boys that the Rebs were unable to cross any body of troops using it. Another first for a Berg game! Looking forward to the final rules before publication. Will be happy to give them a thorough going over (unlike what I gave my game!) Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 354 Sat Aug 12, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 20:19 EDT Richard, I got the Gettysburg errata; thanks! But there is a problem. It's in a Mac format that my PC won't recognize; it won't even recognize the file's name. Is there an ASCII version with a PC- type filename (such as 3-DOG.ERR instead of 3DOG ERR)? Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 355 Sat Aug 12, 1995 J.KINCAID1 [John] at 22:23 EDT ======= To: J.WERBANETH ======= > Richard, I got the Gettysburg errata; thanks! > But there is a problem. It's in a Mac format that my PC won't > recognize; it won't even recognize the file's name. Is there an ASCII > version with a PC- type filename (such as 3-DOG.ERR instead of 3DOG > ERR)? Jim rename the file 3dog.txt and your ascii readers will handle it. The para. formating will be all messed up but that is not hard to fix. John ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 356 Sat Aug 12, 1995 WOMBAT [Ghoti] at 22:32 EDT Sawtooth: > ... __ALL__ UPS packages are trackable. Except when they decide to lose the package entirely. :( I'm still waiting for them to find the package they SAID they were holding for me a week-and-a-half ago! RHB: > The infamous "steenkin badges" line also appears.... ...in "Blazing Saddles". :) ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 357 Sun Aug 13, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:39 EDT Stu . . . what you describe as a GBACW module actually exists, by the way, as Rebel Sabers. I should point out that, while it doesn't exactly match perfectly, the Old Dutch Road map from RebSab will overlay (sort of) with the new 3DoG map, as they are both the same (exact) scale. Mark: Errata on LOS is correct; yes, it does contradict the rules; yes, I never get this stuff straight. Jim, if John hasn't straightened out your download problem, lemme know. I keep forgetting that the PC's, in their infiniate, but rather linear, wisdom, don't read "blanks" in titles. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 358 Sun Aug 13, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 11:04 EDT RHB, Thanks. Even as I was typing my suggestion, something was tugging at the back of my mind that such a GBACW beast already existed. Even so, I thought it might be nice to update it to the most recent evolutionary standard of GBACW in terms of graphics and rules, i.e. 3-DoG. In addition, I wouldn't know how to begin to locate a copy of Rebel Sabres (and given the prices I've seen for out of print GBACW games, I couldn't imagine how to pay for it!). One more LOS question: Unit A fires at Unit B, which is one elevation level higher than Unit A and located two hexes away. The intervening hex is woods or a town hex. As I read the "halfway" standard in 8.3.4. LOS is _Not_ blocked. Correct? It seems a little funny to me, being able to see over an adjacent clump of trees, but I can certainly learn to live with it if that is the case. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 359 Sun Aug 13, 1995 D.MANN8 [Doug Mann] at 12:33 EDT GMT, Add my congrats on the production values in 3DoG. I agree that I'd like to see the place names more readable, but I'm glad to see such attention to getting the map done right. Still cutting out counters but looking forward to pushing them around this weekend. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 360 Sun Aug 13, 1995 D.MANN8 [Doug Mann] at 13:05 EDT RHB, If it's not too late, can I get the 3DoG errata? Thanks ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 361 Sun Aug 13, 1995 G.ANDERSON13 at 15:30 EDT RHB, I would also appreciate the highly popular 3DoG errata. Thanks. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 362 Sun Aug 13, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 16:12 EDT to Jim Werbaneth: MSUs do not move during the motor movement phase because they do not have the doctrine. The design intends that these be rear area. Playtesting here showed that they are moving fast enough anyway. Let us know how you think the game plays. - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 363 Sun Aug 13, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 21:09 EDT John and Richard, one of the problems is that I can't rename it. I tried that early one. Unfortunately, with both DOS and Windows, the only operation that can be done with this type of file is deletion. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 364 Sun Aug 13, 1995 P.PERLA at 21:15 EDT Jim, I'll only say what I say to all the poor PC users: get a Mac. Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 365 Sun Aug 13, 1995 J.KINCAID1 [John] at 23:48 EDT ======= To: J.WERBANETH ======= > John and Richard, one of the problems is that I can't rename it. I > tried that early one. Unfortunately, with both DOS and Windows, the > only operation that can be done with this type of file is deletion. Jim I will send you a copy of my file. I think it should be ok for you. Advise if I am wrong. John ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 366 Mon Aug 14, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:04 EDT Stu: that's one of those "halfway' anomalies. In the situation you describe I would say LOS IS blocked, as the blocking terrain is directly adjacent to the firing unit, a sort of "In Your Face" rule . . . . Played Diadochoi this weekend - along with a couple of other games - and after talking with Markie Mark we may have some rather interesting new and (probably) experimental rules (generic to series) . . . plus the usual errata. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 367 Mon Aug 14, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 18:22 EDT Vance, I have another Typhoon question. When a special event enables the Soviets to release one of their garrisons, do they release the entire group of units, i.e. the fortified line near Bryansk, or just one stack? We're playing that it's the entire group of units, but we'd just like to make sure. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 368 Mon Aug 14, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 20:22 EDT Jim, It's just one stack. Releaseing the whole line would be way too much besides being a little vague. Keep us posted on how it is playing. - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 369 Mon Aug 14, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 21:13 EDT Rich- Is the 3DoG errata downloadable from the libraries? Don't have the game yet (still not in stores), but I can at LEAST read the errata as a tasty appetizer. -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 370 Mon Aug 14, 1995 T.TRANT at 21:42 EDT 8th Air Force questions: 1) Are the number of "full throttle" chits per jet/rocket limited to the aircraft's "Speed" number? 2) What effect does altitude have on the Me-163? Going by strictly by the rules, it would have a horrible time at high altitude (since it's not "turbocharged") and would seem to get the standard low altitude horsepower improvement. Somewhere I heard the suggestion that it ignore altitude effects (both high & low) completely, which makes much more sense. Tim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 371 Mon Aug 14, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 22:28 EDT RHB, I agree with your read on the LOS "halfway" issue. Should we resolve this anomaly by stating that adjacent full level obstacles _always_ block LOS? Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 372 Tue Aug 15, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:00 EDT As you stated, adjacnt obstacles block .. . . JC, errata is not yet in the library. Soon, soon . . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 373 Wed Aug 16, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:07 EDT Trust none of you will have any3-DoG questions until next week, as I'm off on a business trip (Colorado Springs) and will return late Sunday nite. Enjoy. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 374 Wed Aug 16, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 19:27 EDT Vance, We've already played two games of one of the smaller scenarios, of the German drive on Orel, that ended up going identically. Here's how they went. I played the Soviets, and two guys played the Germans. I won. It wasn't because I played all that great, as we were doing this to learn the game, but because the German players had a couple of operational misapprehensions. Well, more than a couple. First, and most important, they used the panzers to execute a short hook against the Soviet fortified forward line, instead of driving straight for Orel, or maybe Kursk. They thought that the Soviet army was the center of gravity, and basically gave me a lot of time to build up Orel's defenses. Second, they misused their airpower. Even at maximum odds, they piled on Luftwaffe support, in a clinic of overkill. At the same time, they did virtually nothing that impeded my rail traffic. Instead of interdicting Orel, Kursk and other vital rail junctions consistently, they used interdiction infrequently, and only against the most forward units. It was so ineffectual that at no time was it so much as an inconvenience. Strangely, the Germans saw their INFANTRY as the war-winning. Yes, it's important, but they denigrated the chances for an early breakthrough with the panzers, figuring that the infantry in the north had to first get through the Soviet defenses, fight their way to Orel, and invest the city before they could take it. It was a case of Montgomery tidiness winning out over Rommel daring, at a time when approaching mud meant that there was no time. We're going to play the campaign game next. It was supposed to start tomorrow, but that's been delayed because the game is set up in a badly ventilated room with no air conditioning, and a wall that faces the setting sun. We're waiting for the heat wave to end. However, since the same guys are playing the Germans and my Soviet partner is an extremely experienced defensive specialist, I think we'll be drinking vodka with Comrade Stalin in the end. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 375 Wed Aug 16, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 20:52 EDT Rich- I know you won't see this til next week, but thanks for the errata. Hope to have the game in my sweaty hands this weekend (and given the weather forecast, I mean SWEATY . . .) -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 76 Thu Aug 17, 1995 DIPLOMACY-1 at 21:36 EDT Topic Closed for Cleaning Peter Szymonik Games RT Sysop ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 77 Sat Aug 19, 1995 J.REED9 [jhreed] at 20:11 EDT Richard, Please e-mail me a copy of the erratta too, if you don't mind. Getting stuff into and out of the library is an undertaking. Some questions of my own that I have not seen covered (we started the grand "campaign" game about a week ago): 1). Does Heth's division enter using strategic move? 2). Maybe we are getting old but the difference between woods and woods/rough is not easy to read in the legend. We assumed woods/rough was the woods with the grey rocks in it. Correct? 3). One of the Union cav. brigades tried initiative and failed, leading to confusion. We then rolled a 0 causing the brigade to "Advance and Shock Attack". The exception beneath 10.2.3 states that dismounted cavalry may not do this. We settled on the confusion roll turning into a "Stand" instead. Is this right? 4). We couldn't find any arrival information for the Union Artillery Corps Brigade leaders (Wainwright - I Corps,, Osborne - XI Corps). We foind the Pegram arrival for the Confederates, though. Thanks in advance -- John Reed. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 78 Sun Aug 20, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 01:17 EDT Jim - Good choice of scenario but sad bunch of opponents! I hope this is not a commentary on today's quality of play. Try switching sides. Wouldn't they really be happier playing Soviets? - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 79 Sun Aug 20, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 15:06 EDT Vance, I agree with you about the scenario and the opponents. We purposedly set up the game this way because they most frequently get to play the defense. We thought it would be a good change of pace. Oh well. I hope Uncle Joe keeps his vodka on ice. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 80 Sun Aug 20, 1995 R.RUBIN8 [Rich Rubin] at 19:24 EDT I've just bought Typhoon and I've got a printing problem on Map P. The entire background is covered with a faint red blotchy pattern which looks like an allergic skin reaction to medication. All the woods, hills and rivers, as well as fortified lines, are off color. I'd like to have this replaced. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 81 Sun Aug 20, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 21:03 EDT Vance, Typhoon! question: Does a friendly ZOC negate an enemy ZOC for retreat? 6.1.5 and 8.6.2.a seem to conflict. Thanks, Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 82 Sun Aug 20, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 21:21 EDT Gene, Did you receive my email conerning the Waterloo rules update? Haven't heard from you in a while. Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 83 Sun Aug 20, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 21:21 EDT Vance, Typhoon question: I set my game up, (using the campaign set-up, of course!) and found that neither of the armored trains sets up on a RR track. In fact, one is on an island. I suspect this is a typo? Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 84 Sun Aug 20, 1995 J.WEBSTER6 [J.D.Webster] at 22:06 EDT Obviously dave is not aware of the experimental soviet amphibous trains which used webbed wheels without need for tracks. Two were built and both appear in the game.....(naaawww). ;). ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 85 Mon Aug 21, 1995 GENERAL-3W [JY0] at 05:33 EDT Rich Rubin, I had a problem with the proofs for map P. We are in the process of redoing that map! You'll get your replacements as soon as we get this fixed! Joe Y ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 86 Mon Aug 21, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:11 EDT Have returned from Colorado, and Land of the Game Store (Colorodo Springs). In answer to John R's Q's: for 3-DoG: 1. Yes. 2. Yes. 3. See 4.7.2. 4. Enter with Corps commander (which I think is what the errata says . . . .) RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 87 Mon Aug 21, 1995 W.GRAVES2 [Wig] at 23:41 EDT Vance, TYPHOON! question: does the limits of 18.4.7 apply in scenario #5? If so, does it also apply to the fortifications on the other maps? Game really looks good. Vance/Dave, Not to start an argument but did the Konotop/Orel rail line exist or not? This is a major supply route in Guderian's Blitz but is not on the TYPHOON! map. Wig ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 88 Tue Aug 22, 1995 GENERAL-3W [JY0] at 06:53 EDT Wig, I can speak for both the Typhoon Map and the other game. On all of the map sources we had for this area(German Staff maps at 1:500,000 and Soviet maps done in 1938-39, no such railine existed. The German maps are generally dated between 1941 and1943. So I don't think it was something that the krauts added themselves, either. Joe Y ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 89 Tue Aug 22, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 17:36 EDT Wig, You'd have to ask Dean about the RR. I don't know, myself. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 90 Tue Aug 22, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 23:16 EDT Dave, The correct set-up hexes for the Soviet armored RR units are map P-2512 for the 30+76 unit and map N-2603 for the 53+73 unit. The correct hex set-up is listed on the Soviet set-up cards for scenarios 4 and 5. Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 91 Wed Aug 23, 1995 AVALON.HILL at 08:44 EDT Dave and Wig, I checked my sources too (a 1939 Soviet map and a 1943 German map) and there was no railroad from Konotop to Orel in 1941. There is a railroad now days, but it must have been built long after the war. The only railroads going into Orel from the west or south are the ones from Bryansk and Kursk. Your mistake is understandable. When doing the maps for Stalingrad and Ukraine '43 it was very difficult to determine which rail lines existed, which existed but were never repaired, and which were newly built for the campaign. I would love to read an article some day describing the repair of railroads on the east front and itemizing all the railroads that were built during the war. Mark S. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 92 Wed Aug 23, 1995 MIH.SUPPORT [Ulrich] at 12:18 EDT Joe Y.: Nice "krauts" remark you made...reminds me of a certain guy from GR/D at Games Spectacular I in Eindhoven...Richard do you remember? ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 93 Wed Aug 23, 1995 R.EICHENLAUB [Dick] at 20:13 EDT I recently got your Typhoon! game and have some questions (some of these are clarifications...I think I know the answer but just need confirmation): 1. [6.1.7] There are several references to railroads having to be "available for friendly railroad movement". Is this simply for cases where scenario rules might disallow a railroad's use? 2. [6.2.3] Is on-map supply (i.e. using a supply point to provide general supply to units) range normal (based on weather) or always five? 3. [6.3.5e with 10.2.4] Can an OOS artillery support an attack-supplied attack? 4. [6.1.5] The last clause is a little confusing. It implies a unit can retreat through a mutually controlled hex. Was this clause intended to refer to only the first part of the rule (friendly occupied)? 5. [7.2.3] Can units whose movement is halved during the Movement Phase (i.e. Soviet Motorized) still do infiltration? 6. [7.6.1] Is it true that a unit cannot initiate railroad movement at all if in an air interdiction zone? Shouldn't this be mentioned in 1.4.31? 7. [8.1.2] Refers to 8.3.6b (which notes Clear Mud and Frost only). Is a unit obligated to attack across major rivers during Snow or Arctic? 8. [8.0] When declaring attacks, does the player announce all details (participating units, strengths and which units are being attacked) or simply the hex being attacked (in which case the actual allocation of strength is not fixed until the actual Combat Resolution)? 8. [8.3.5] I assume that advance after combat is not allowed into prohibited terrain even though it is not specifically noted in 8.9. 9. [12.3.1] What is the sequence for an asterisked step loss number? First affects any engineer unit involved. Then any armor that contributed to Combined Arms? Or can the remaining losses be distributed at will after the engineer is affected? 10. [12.1] Can a unit benefit from an enemy strongpoint? 11. [8.7] Is it true that when an Attacker marks his units with an Additional Retreat marker, he can subtract 1 from his losses and still Advance into the hex (if vacated)? Or does the reduction of losses only apply if a R result is included? I've played the game a couple times and have bumped into these questions. I may have more later. Thanks for any help you can provide. Thanks, -Dick- ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 94 Wed Aug 23, 1995 D.WHITAKER3 [Dick] at 21:28 EDT Dear Mr. Berg, Please e-mail the errata to 3Dog to me. Thanks in advance. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 95 Wed Aug 23, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 22:10 EDT Mark, I have a map (two, actually, one naming all stations) of the rail net in the Ukraine. It was prepared by the German staff section for AGS, I think, and is dated 1941. It shows double-track, single- track, low capacity, and under construction RRs. Given work I'm doing for Army Group South, I've cross- checked it with other sources, and it has been completely reliable so far, so I think it was done in late '41, after german occupation. It is not a pre- invasion study, which is nice. What's interesting is that it does show a RR running NE out of Konotop in the direction of Orel. It does not, however, show Orel itself, being outside the bounds of the Ukraine. My source for this one, however, is working on getting similar maps for the rest of the USSR, so hopefully we will have them in time for the re-do of GB. Actually, since Guderian's Blitz was done, we have discovered much better source material, so that it's quite possible that a post-war track slipped in. I'd like see such an article too, Mark. Not sure where it'd appear, however. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 96 Thu Aug 24, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 01:19 EDT Looks like I am behind on answering questions. 1. Dave's armored trains - They won't need water wings, Ken Thurston has it right, see msg 90. 2. Map rash - and freckles too! Joe says that map will be reprinted. I tyrust he will fix the woods there too. 3. Retreat thru eZOC - friendly ZOC does not negate but a friendly combat unit in the hex in question would negate ZOC (eZOC) 4. Railroads in 1941 - I studied the German staff maps Joe refers to and cross- referenced them with as many other maps as I could find. As Mark says, it was all very difficult to decipher. Errors would not surprise me. I welcome debate and correction. I doubt the Konotop- Orel line existed in, specifically, October of 1941. 5 Rule 18.4.7 applies also in Scenario #5. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 97 Thu Aug 24, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 01:29 EDT Let me respond to Dick Eichenlaub's questions: 1. (6.1.7) - yes, and for the Axis it must be converted. 2. (6.2.3) - supply point range is based on weather: seven in Dry or Frost, five in Mud, Snow or Arctic. 3. (6.3.5e with 10.2.4) - yes; general supply has nothing to do with attack syupply. 4. (6.1.5) - clause refers only to the first part of te rule. 5. (7.2.3) - Canxxx; Yes; the only Soviet units capable of this are the motorcycle regiments and the "Des-NKVD" unit. 6. (7.6.1) - not true, at least in an older version of the rules, I will want to think about this one for a while. 7. (8.1.2) - I think the rules reference s/b 8.3.6b - Yes; obligated to attack across major river during Snow or Arctic weather. 8. (8.3.5) - correct assumption. 9. (12.3.1) - Sequence is a.affects any engineer unit involved, b. affects any armor that contrib. in Combined Arms, c. apply to units not attack supplied. 10. (12.1) - No benefit from enemy strongpoint. 11. (8.7) - Attacker reduction of loss only if "R" resiult occurs for attacker. Yes, keep those questions coming. - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 98 Thu Aug 24, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 05:42 EDT Got an official errata yet, Vance? If so, e-mail me a copy when you get a chance, if only to help my reviewer sense the greatest lurking beneath the surface (etc etc etc). Has 3DoG shown up in local shops yet? A few sightings would help us keep tabs on what arrives when.Thanx. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 99 Thu Aug 24, 1995 AVALON.HILL at 08:43 EDT Dave, The rail line heading northeast out of Konotop goes to Bryansk. Sounds like you've got an excellent map source for Army Group South, would love to see it sometime. When is your game (Army Group South) due out? Mark S. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 100 Thu Aug 24, 1995 M.SEARLE1 [Squirrel] at 11:24 EDT >Has 3DoG shown up in local shops yet? A few sightings would help us >keep tabs on what arrives when.Thanx. Richard, I was in my favorite game store (Twilight Book & Games) in Syracuse, NY on this Tues (Aug 22) and they didn't have 3Dog yet. They get their big game shipments (thats big as in quanitity of games, not as in individually large games, which 3Dog is, but thats neither here nor there) on Thursdays, so they may yet have it this week. As for where I live/work, in the Saratoga/Albany, NY, there's no such thing as a game store around here, so it won't get to this area until I bring my copy home from Twilight . . . Mark Searle GamesUSA ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 101 Thu Aug 24, 1995 D.VOHLERS at 19:31 EDT Has there been a Billingsley siting recently? I've got some C:S '73 questions to post, and I'd like to get my playtest copy of 3DoG, but Gene still seems AWOL. Does anyone (Richard, Vance?) have an idea when he'll be back from his vacation? Thanks, Dick ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 102 Thu Aug 24, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 20:02 EDT Rich - I sent a copy of errata to reviewer two weeks ago. As for Gene, I have not heard from him in about a month. As I understand he was in bad need of vacation. Let's hope the wooly bears don't get him! - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 103 Thu Aug 24, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 21:03 EDT Richard: I stopped by Prosek's Military Hobby Shop in Winfield, IL this past weekend looking for 3DoG, but it hadn't arrived yet. Anxiously waiting, Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 104 Thu Aug 24, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 22:21 EDT Rich, Yet another playtester, here, longing for a sight of the fabled 3- doggy-DOG. Mark, Bryansk is a definite possibility, except that the map shows a fork in the line. Alas, it's too vague. As for AGS, yes, I think the RR map has been a big help. I wish I had as good a map for placenames, which are all over the place and in three different languages, to boot. I'd like to get all the towns and cities named as they were by the owning country in 1941. Given the German prepensity to insist on a Germanic name for a city no matter when it was last German, this might be a real task... Oh well, that's the joy of cartography! Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 105 Fri Aug 25, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:40 EDT Gene IS on vacation - in Memphis (probably contracting for a "Where's Elvis? game) . . . have no idea when he returns. Playtesters for 3DoG should contact Jewel at 1-800-523-6111 and ask if those copies have been sent. My understanding is that 3DoGs were shipped middle of last week, so, with a 7-10 day delay between that and store appearance, they should be popping up even as we speak. In the measntime, I head for a week out at Montauk, altho I should be around (here), as I carry ye olde laptop along . . .Not that there's much doing on-line these days anyway . . . .RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 106 Sat Aug 26, 1995 P.KELLER3 [Pete] at 01:47 EDT ALERT....ALERT 3 DoG has been sighted in WARDOGS in Jax Fla. Pete ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 107 Sat Aug 26, 1995 W.ARNSDORF [MARTY] at 10:42 EDT I too am waiting patiently for my playtest copy of 3-DoG. Since our games are "free", we go to the back of the line. One would think, tho, that once the pre-orders are shipped, they could slip a game to us. I can understand a lack of components can delay this, but I don't think that is the case in 3- DoG. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 108 Sun Aug 27, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 17:37 EDT 3DoG showed up in Madison, WI, late last week. Will pick it up Monday, as my wife won't be home and won't be overly inquisitive about me bringing home a $59 game (not that I'll be paying full price for it, but you get the point). - JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 109 Sun Aug 27, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner(0-5)] at 20:45 EDT Someone had asked a couple questions about 8th AF awhile ago. I don't think they were answered. Go ahead and post 'em again and I'll take a shot (only semi-official) if you want. :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 110 Mon Aug 28, 1995 T.TRANT at 22:33 EDT 8th Air Force questions again, for Grinner: 1) is the "Speed" rating only the starting number of "Full Thrust" chits for a jet/rocket, or is it the maximum too (as the Maneuvering value is for number of Action Cards in the element's hand)? They'll never come down from Very High altitude until they've got a ton of those chits if it's not the maximum. (This really is only an issue for dogfight games, rather than a campaign.) 2) how is an Me-163 affected by altitude? Going strictly by the rules, since it hasn't got a "turbocharger" its horsepower deteriorates badly up high, and it also improves at Low & Very Low even though a rocket shouldn't care about the denser air there. I remember a mention somewhere that it should just ignore altitude effects completely, which sounds good to me, so I'm looking for confirmation. Thanks, Tim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 111 Mon Aug 28, 1995 R.TAYLOR77 [Roger] at 23:33 EDT 3-DOG spotted in Falls Church, VA last Sat -- and bought! (And I swore I'd never buy another monster game.) So Richard, could you include me in round 2 (3?) of the errata mailing? Thanks. -- Roger ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 112 Tue Aug 29, 1995 D.VOHLERS at 21:04 EDT Good news for 3DoG playtesters: I called the 800 number tonight and Roger G. told me that the 3DoG playtest copies were shipped by UPS today. Dick ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 113 Wed Aug 30, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner(0-5)] at 23:19 EDT Tim, Well, I've looked over you questions. My response is: Good questions. Going over the rules and (somewhat messed up) examples, what I remember isn't really what's written. The jet/rocket rules were modified quite a bit during the playtesting. So it could well be that the final results are as you state. I.e. the speed and thrust draws are not tied together and rocket burn is modified by altitude. But what I remember last is 1) Speed is a maximum, like performance and thrust is the maximum draw, like horsepower. And the comet had special rules including a limit on the number of turns that it could stay airborne (3, last I remember). Again these things were changed a bunch, so I can't give the difinitive rules. I guess we'll need to wait for Gene. Gene, if you read this, you probably know this by now, but the jet example is not real clear. Somewhere along the line the damage done to the P51 wingman was transfered to the Me262 wingman instead. It was a good way to fit the example to the amount of page space left ;). :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 114 Thu Aug 31, 1995 S.CLARKE8 [Scott] at 22:25 EDT Richard - Actually how about posting 3dog errata to the libary (if you haven't already). ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 115 Fri Sep 01, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:37 EDT I will be glad to put the 3DoG Errata in the Library . . . except that each time I t seems to go into Limboland. Oh well . . . I'll wait until after the big weekend, when several people have told me they'll be playing and calling with questions . . . . so, next week sometime. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 116 Sat Sep 02, 1995 D.VOHLERS at 08:55 EDT Any sign of Gene yet? He's been off-line for a month, and I've been wanting to ask some C:S '73 questions. Does anyone have an idea as to when he might return? Dick ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 117 Sat Sep 02, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 09:19 EDT Some additional 3DoG errata: Range Chart. The "B" Breechloaders should have a Max Range of '4', a -1 at 3 hexes and a -2 at 4 hexes. 9.6. Units may advance after Fire only if they were adjacent to the target. 10.31. Berdan's Sharpshooters have a Max Range of '6', with a -2 in the 5-7 column. (They were trained to fire - and their sites set - at c.800 yards). (Thanx to the fellow who reminded me . . . .) Gene is, if not battling his umpteenth respiratory infection, at the LA One assumes that if his lungs are still working, he'll be available, once (yet) again Tuesday or so. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 118 Sat Sep 02, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 11:42 EDT ATTENTION: GBoHers. Mark and I have come up with a new rule for Phalanxes (and all double- sized units) which, we hope, reflects both their strength and their brittleness (brittleosity?). We would like those of you playing SPQR, Alex, etc, to give it a try and tell us how it works, what you think, etc. When any double-sized unit accumulates enuf hits that would normally make it Rout, insteand, roll the die. Adjust the DR by the # of hits that exceed the printed TQ. (Thus, a PH of 6 TQ with 4 hits that receives 4 more hits would add 2 [+2] to that DR). If that "Rout DR" is EQUAL OR LESS than the printed TQ, the unit does NOT Rout. Instead, it stands, with hits = to its TQ minus 1. If the Rout DR is GREATER than the printed TQ, the unit retreats two hexes (as it normally would do) and is, after that retreat, ELIMINATED. There it be . . . .give it a try and tell us what you think. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 119 Sat Sep 02, 1995 M.PITTS4 at 11:43 EDT I saw 3-DOG prominently displayed in the new games section of Sword of the Phoenix, Atlanta, GA as of this past Monday (Aug. 28). The detergent box is reminiscent of past (SPI) times :). M.Pitts ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 120 Sat Sep 02, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 14:50 EDT Hate to do this, but I have to make a price complaint. Diadochi was $16 retail at the game store. That's for 200 counters (actually the equivalent of, since many are double-sized and one is quadruple-sized), and 10 pages of scenarios. You're average non-monster Command is $16.95 for the same nember of counters, a map, a rules booklet and a magazine both of which are on glossy paper). What gives? Are paper costs higher for you guys than for others? Even 3DoG seems like it should be around $50. Help me justify my purchases, please. -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 121 Sat Sep 02, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 20:20 EDT Dick - I talked to Gene by phone last Thurs. He was still recovering from who knows what alergic reaction and or sickness as a result of too much vacation (!) -- or si it seems. He is at an LA con. this weekend so I expect he will return to Genieland next week some time. - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 122 Sat Sep 02, 1995 M.SZARKA [Mike] at 20:55 EDT JC, not that GMT needs me to go to bat for them, but as Diadochi is a module with necessarily limited sales potential, and the economies of scale which Command benefits from are simply not there. Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 123 Sun Sep 03, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 06:19 EDT Re new Phalanx rout rule: I wish I had gotten online yesterday as I had the chance to play a little and could have tested it. My only initial concern is that you've set up the potential for a unit to possibly never rout. Though I still think it would just be easier if you let just PHs take twice its TQ in cohesion hits (then kill them upon rout), at least this new rule gives them more staying power. Ciao, Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 124 Sun Sep 03, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 09:04 EDT Sal, what we've done is to try to extend both the PH's "numerical" power as well as the brittle(osity) of such a formation, as noted. Yes, there is a mathematical possibility that a PH will never rout . . . then again, once it does, it can't be rallied. Not a bade trade-off in utility, in game terms. What we do have to do is modify the rule slightly so that it does not make PHs attack-happy . . . . Probably a DRM . . . Mike P. If I'm not mistaken, that Sword-Phoenix in Atlanta is run by one of the fellows who was an original Final Playtest in Georgia groupie for the original TSS. As for the price of Diadochoi, as well as other modules . . . Mike S has pretty much answered that 'q'. A Command issue is a presold item of about 7500; that means they already know what that issue has brought in. Modules do not have that luxury; and most of them have to be discounted to distributors, which means GMT doesn't get $16; they get c. $6.50. And as ojly, maybe, 5% of sales are direct, that means GMT is getting about $7 a module. Not much room for profiut there, is there . . . . Speaking of modules, anyone wanna guess which is the "best-selling" of all GBoH modules? No prize; just the satisfactionb of being more knowledgeable than the rest of the hoi poloi . . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 125 Sun Sep 03, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 09:14 EDT For the experimental (but probable) PH Rout Rule, add three (+3) if the double- sizer was Attacking at the time . . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 126 Mon Sep 04, 1995 O.SOGARD [SOGARD] at 05:53 EDT Richard, Have you ever considered the battle of Fontenoy (May 11, 1745) for your GBoH series? It looks like it could be a perfect fit for a game in the series. It contains Frederick's only real rival in the period, Maurice of Saxony, along with the presence of Louis XV on the field coupled with one jim dandy of a British infantry assault. You could pair it up with whatever of Frederick's battles you would want. I have just read Reed Browning's THE WAR OF THE AUSTRIAN SUCCESSION (St. Martin's Press, 1993). I was interested in a good account regarding Maria Theresa and while it lacked the profile I was looking for, it did contain a very good history of the war and an account of war making in the 18th century. SOGARD ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 127 Mon Sep 04, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:21 EDT Sogard . . .eventually, we'll get around to that era, although Lord knows when. Now that the "consciousness level" of gamers has been raised, doing some of these interesting battles becomes a viable (economically) opportunity. Played the battle of Paraitecene yesterday (from Diadochoi). Great stuff (and wer used the new EL command/.charge rules). I did note some setup hex questions (that I'm sure Mark will answer . . .shortly). But it was a real nip- and-tuck affair, with mistakes aplenty on both sides, and lots of rapid attacks, etc. Eumenes got a few of his elephant corps to push Antgones LW cav back, but then he made the mistake of trying to attack Antigonus' HI with his HC. The HC - and Eumenes - got pinned against the HI when Antigonus' LC counter-attacked, which put Eumenes hors de combat for several turns. On the other hand, Antigonus had split his EL screen left and right, allowing Eumenes' ELs to charge directly at the center of Antigonus' line (bowling over a host of unfortunate archers). Massive frontal EL charge destroyed the heart of Eumenes' elephant corps . . . and did woeful damage to Antigonus' phalanx line. With both of Eumenes' flanks in danger, but the center of Antigonus' line about to collapse, I had to go buy my son a phone for college . . . so we left it hanging there. Real Life won, 2-1. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 128 Mon Sep 04, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 07:48 EDT Richard, You'll never guess. I've got GBoH questions. :) Actually it's just clarrification about the new PH rout rule. You mention attacking PHs add three to the rout TQ check. I just want to make sure that is in addition to whatever modifier they have for going over their TQ, and that it only applies in that situation (not for example, during pre-shock check). And finally if the PH survives the rout roll and ends with TQ-1, I assume that it does NOT have to roll for collapse during the collapse stage. Ciao, Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 129 Mon Sep 04, 1995 MIH.SUPPORT [Ulrich] at 13:19 EDT Richard: I prefer the old PH rule simply because the new one is one more exception (although it might be a little bit more "realistic"). By the way, I played my first two GBH battle in a year last weekend, Samarkand and Pelium from GBoA - the old magic was immediately back! I hope to play the bigger battles soon. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 130 Mon Sep 04, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 13:57 EDT RHB, I've collected as much 3DoG errata posted here as I could find but still have a some questions concerning the Confederate Master Reinforce- ment and Arrival Schedule. 1. July 1, 1200: Should the "Pittsylvania" battery really be the "Lewis batteries (Garnett's Bn)? I could not find a Pittsylvania piece. I do have Lewis a&b which I could not find an entry time for. 2. July 1, 1800: Should the "Lynchburg" battery be Lee's batteries (Latimer/Johnson)? The only Lynchburg piece I found was of Dearing's Bn, arrives July 2, 1400. I could no find an arrival time for Lee's batteries (Latimer Bn). 3. July 1, 1840: I can not find a "Ga Regular" battery (Nelson's Bn). I do have a "Mldge" a&b of Nelson's Bn for which I can'y find an entry time. 4. July 1, 1240: Should the "Louisa" batteries be Morris (Carter Bn)? I could not find the Louisa battery and I have the Morris battery with no entry time. 5. July 2, 0700: I could not find the "Bedford" battery but have a "Taylor battery (Alexander's Bn) for which I cannot find an entry time. 6. July 2, 1600: Does the "Jackson" horse artillery enter with the rest of Beckham's horse artillery? Thanks for your help, Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 131 Mon Sep 04, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 21:24 EDT Everybody- Thanks for enlightening me to the economics of module production. Actually, I figured the big Hoplite counter alone was worth $16! RHB - my guess as to the best selling GBoH module would have to be War Elephant, as I believe it was the only one to be reprinted. Haven't tried the new PH rules as I've been slugging away at 3DoG. Question (forgive me if I missed the answer earlier): Does the low-density fire modifier for artillery apply if the target is artillery, i.e. is the number of guns the same as the number of strength points in this case? -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 132 Tue Sep 05, 1995 T.TRANT at 00:20 EDT About Diadochi: The Gaza setup is definitely incomplete: Ptolemy is missing most of his phalanx. This is pretty obvious when you compare the total Size and TQ ratings of the listed troops with the values given in the rout ratio calculation. Once you've figured out that you need 50 (!) more Size points and 31 worth of TQ, you just have to remember that the best troops are almost always on the right. Add four more TQ 6 phalanx units and one of TQ 7, set up to continue the line of the two listed phalanxes. There's also a fair bit of space in the rules section spent on the possibilities for a joint skirmisher & elephant line, even though Ptolemy has no elephants and Demetrius has no skirmishers. Gaza is a neat little battle, with its limited (but varied) number of units and quick playing time. I was playing solo: Ptolemy had the battle won (just had to wait for some enemy cavalry to actually rout off the map) when Seleucus died in Personal Combat with Demetrius - he'd carefully stayed away and joined an adjacent part of the Heavy Cavalry melee instead, but Advance After Combat brought them face to face after all. Another general GBoH question: wasn't there a Misslie Combat die modifier for firing at Skirmishers in one of the modules? Shouldn't this apply everywhere? Tim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 133 Tue Sep 05, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:38 EDT Aaaah, back to work . . . lots of questions. Sal. You're right, so far. And your assumptions are correct. Uli. It may be an exception, but it should be a more accurate representa- tion of how PHs, etc worked. We'll see when the "tester" reports come in. Oh, and one more system change Mark and I have "approved": Routed SK units on the map during the Rout Phase are eliminated. (Not rout moved, etc.) Ken T. You're right down the line. Problem with CSA batteries is that most of them have(had) 2 names . . . I probably coss-checked my OoB rather than the countersheet manifest in doin the scenario stuff. Sorry. JC: Low density fire modifier also applies to arty targets. Tim T. As for Gaza set up, I have to leave that for mark, altho I do know that the deployment is a bit unusual. The El/SK rule is sort of a generic rule for the module . . . and I do remember that Missile vs SK DRM. Sounds like it should be "endemic"; I'll check. We are working on a new elephant command/charge rule, tho, that will better portray using the big boys. We should have a Diadochoi Errata by week's end. Hopefully . . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 134 Tue Sep 05, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 17:55 EDT I got my playtester copy of 3DOG today. O frabjous day. It looks good, very good. I hope this one does well for GMT. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 135 Tue Sep 05, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 20:17 EDT RHB, Thanks for the 3Dog info. My poor eyes worked overtime trying to make sure I hadn't missed something. It doesn't help that I still haven't gotten used to bifocals (oops the b... word). It's a bit of a squeeze getting all three maps on my gaming table, but they sure look nice once together. Thanks again, Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 136 Tue Sep 05, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 21:54 EDT The new issue of MHQ has an article by Victory Davis Hanson on Delium. I have a funny feeling that the giant phalanx in Diadochi is for the densely packed Theban right wing in that battle. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 137 Wed Sep 06, 1995 P.KELLER3 [Pete] at 03:48 EDT Grinner, How Many B-17s do the Americans get in Schweinfurt? Pete ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 138 Wed Sep 06, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 05:42 EDT Some additional errata for 3DoG: 1. Union Master Reinf. Schedule; 7/1, 1900: that should be the 3/3/I brigade (not the 3/1/III). 2. The CSA 14Va, 16Va, and 17Va Cav regiments should be in the 4th Cav brigade, not the 3rd. 3. Union 10 MA (2/2/I) should be the 12 MA. The latter two will probably find their way into C3i in a month or two. In the meantime, we are working on the pub schedule for the next 6-9 months Along with this will come some "frabjous" (to borrow a phrase from Dave the Powell) pre-pub offers, altho they will not be as stress-producing as the 3DoG offer. They will be well worth it tho . . . .at this point it looks like (subject to change in next week or so) the Fall/pre-Xmas games will be GLORY, the BELLUM cardgame, and NORWAY . . . plus a GB0H module, probably either for Alex or JC. The frontrunner for that is PHALANX, the apogee of Hellenistic warfare (battles of Sellassia and Mantinea, 3rd century BC). The JC module would be JUGURTHA; we have decided to package Alesia with the three main battles of the campaigns into a full box game: THE GALLIC WARS, probably for sometime 1996. All, as I said, subject to further "meetings" . . . . RHB and Gene, almost rec- overed, should be back on shortly. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 139 Wed Sep 06, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:19 EDT And throw another shrimp on the 3DoG Errata-barbie: ADD to DR adjustments to Fire Table: +1 if target is non-moving (non- phasing) mounted cavalry. (This is cumulative with the mount/dismount DRM) RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 140 Wed Sep 06, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 06:43 EDT To Diado players, Just a little reminder that all the ELs in the EL/SK line have full archers, not just screens. Don't forget to keep that in mind when shooting, especially against other ELs as the result will be 2 cohesion hits not 1 as in SPQR when EL screens hit another EL. Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 141 Wed Sep 06, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner(0-5)] at 07:38 EDT Pete, > Grinner, How Many B-17s do the Americans get in Schweinfurt? The info is right there in the narrative. You get 229 B-17s or 280 during October ;). Good question. Another one is "What target type is used for Schweinfurt? Industrial complex or Factory?" I don't believe that I have any early info on this. And the way things changed, it might not be up to date anyway. Heck, the last set I saw still had a bunch of Italian aircraft and a Polish bomber... But based on historical results and assuming that the Draw result is equivlant to same (i.e. over 20% losses and some damage to the (vital) target), I'd guess that you get 6 B-17Fs and 3 B-17Gs vs the Factory Target. In October you'd get all 12 B-17s. I guess we can wait for Gene on this one too. :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 142 Wed Sep 06, 1995 M.PITCAVAGE [Pitman] at 20:54 EDT I bought a copy of Typhoon this week. It looks very nice and I am eager to play it. I particularly like the Soviet counter colors. The map is also great-looking. However, both the Typhoon maps and the 3DOG maps are awfully - thin-. I would gladly shell out more money for thicker paper. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 143 Wed Sep 06, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 22:33 EDT Richard, When you fix the Union 10 MA and the CSA 14Va, 16Va, and 17Va Cav regiments in C3i in a month or two, _please_ include as well a fix for the 3rd AK!! Also, could you or someone else post when the issue of C3i comes out that contains these replacements? My local hobby store does not carry C3i and I cannot currently afford a subscription. Thank you! Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 144 Thu Sep 07, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 02:19 EDT Richard, Thanks for all the 3DOG errata. When my game comes from the distributor, it will all come in handy. However, I think a point has to be made about 3DOG's need for errata. I've seen other people's copies, and have all the errata. I don't want to sound harsh, as I've been both a designer and a developer, and I know how hard either can be. But this game was released way too early, with a bunch of mistakes that should have been caught in the development process. This idea of setting an arbitrary deadline for release, then promising a huge discount if it's late, is not working out. The quality is suffering. Gene, when you get back on line, please dump this policy. It's not worth the cost in hurried development and proofreading. I'd rather have a good game done well, arriving a little late, than one that bears the scars of getting rushed out the door. GMT isn't 3W, but if this keeps up, they're liable to look too much alike. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 145 Thu Sep 07, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:05 EDT Actually, Jim, most of the errata is of the type that probably would not have been caught had we delayed any further. ALL games have errata; you often wonder why you did not see something until "too late", but it happens. I cannot remember a game I have done (never mind anyone else) that did not have several "How the Hell did we Miss That?!??! pieces of errata. The counter mistakes are perfect examples of that . . . as the counters had been finished (an "in") for some time, and we proofread Roger's copies three different times. The only area that suffered from the "deadline" was the phantom white spotws on the map. And, believe me, JW, you have no idea how much of a plus marketing ploy the whole thing was . . . .All errata "...should have been caught", as you say; that it wasn't is why it's errata. In any case, I'm sure we will be seeing much similar pre-pub offers from GMT, altho the "penalty" will be somewhat less severe. I should have the Herman-approved Diadochoi errata by weekend, so you can all take a look at the new EL rule, et al. Right now, modular discussions revolve around whether we should release the LION module, Tercio, next, or the Phalanx or Jugurtha module's (see message above). Comments invited (except for Salvatore, who we have already noted as voting for any Caesar module extant . . . ) RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 146 Thu Sep 07, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 10:35 EDT At long last, I'm back and (almost) ready to work. I've read most of the e- mail and messages above, and will endeavor to answer within a few days. Greg, you get bonus points for Schweinfurt. It is, indeed 6 and 3. The tar target type, though, is Industrial Complex. Jim, Thanks for the input. I'm not sure your points are borne out by the facts, though. Four of the five games we released on that pre-pub offer have needed precious little errata. The bigger games have needed more, not surprisingly. I tend to agree with Richard that we caught most of what we would have caught (one never knows, though), but the sheer size of the project was rather daunting. The things that bugged me about the deadline were the map spots, which we certainly could have fixed given a couple of more weeks. The choice was: fix the spots and give back $25,000, or live with them and stay in business. THAT's the problem with the specific offer we made; that's a lousy choice to have to make. As Richard noted, all in all, the offer was a major hit for us. We have, though, learned a lot and made a list of "do's" and "don'ts" for future offers. For the fall pre-pub (which will go out in about ten days), we'll offer a premium to the gamer if we don't get the games out by a certain date, but 1) we've given ou ourselves a bit more time, 2) we'll not promise a date for a specific game, only a date by which they'll all be finished, and 3) it won't be get the game for $5. We'll use a premium that will be very valuable to the gamer but won't sink the company (or force the kind of choice noted above) if we don't hit it. MAke no mistake; we are committed to getting games out in a timely manner. In doing so, however, we have to leave ourselves the flexibility to fix production glitches. 3W? (Ouch!) I don't think so, Tim... Mark, That's definitely the first time I've heard that comment about the maps. About six months ago we changed to a THICKER stock paper from earlier maps. STill, sometimes printers use supposedly the same stock paper from different manufacturers that comes out differently. This should be the same stock as for Deluxe Al, Sinai, and Typhoon! I'll talk to the printer, just to make sure. Thanks for the heads-up. Dave P., Glad your copy got there in good shape. Enjoy it. You deserve it. We REALLY appreciate your help and input. Ditto, by the way, to all of the testers who helped with this summer's games. You guys' help was integral to our keeping both our word and a high quality product. We're wrapping up our decision-making for what goes to art next (as we have about ten games ready or very nearly ready, it's not an easy choice). Richard's already mentioned what's on the table from his (and Mark's) end. We also have an air-land-sea Norway game, a smaller game in the Typhoon! series, and, sooner or later, we slip in David Rithie's game on the drive toeningrad. More later. Enjoy the games! Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 147 Thu Sep 07, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 18:16 EDT Richard and Gene, I just have high expectations because of past accomplishments. My stuff all has a number of "how the hell'd I miss that" in it; in the long run, it can't be totally avoided. Still, I wish you had had a little more time, and I still think that the rushing of games into print this way offsets any marketing advantages. Of course, there is another way around it. This is to estimate the date of the game's completion, then add a month or two to the announced release date. That should help take care of things such as the 3DOG map proofs and the misaligned Typhoon charts. Then, if the game comes out before the projected release, everybody looks like a genius. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 148 Thu Sep 07, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 20:02 EDT Rich= Regarding the next GBoH module: I vote Tercio, cus maybe it'll inspire me to pull Lion off the shelf, punch it out, and actually play it! I'm afraid it has long been delegated to the this-looks- cool-maybe-someday-I'll-play-it pile. -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 149 Thu Sep 07, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner(0-5)] at 21:09 EDT Gene, Thanks for the info. Don't forget the other questions on 8th Air Force. To restate: 1) For Jets, do you always draw Full Throttle counters equal to the Thrust value, or is this mitigated by Speed? 2) The Komet isn't marked as "turbocharged". Does it suffer from altitude restrictions? I remember that earlier there were special rules for the 163, did they get missed in the final copy? Thanks, :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 150 Fri Sep 08, 1995 D.STARRY at 03:43 EDT I am finally diving into the copy of Operation Mercury which I purchased this spring and had a few comments I'd like to share. Apparently I have an interest in this subject matter, as I've picked up every Crete game I can find over the past 20 years [including Crete (SPI), Air Assault on Crete (AH), Descent on Crete (SPI), Marita-Merkur (GDW), and Hunters from the Sky (Gamers)]. I think it is just a fascination with airborne assaults in general. In any event, it is good to see the subject covered at this scale and scope. I'm just getting into the first scenario which dosen't hold a lot of interest, but is a good tool to learn the innovative combat system. At this scale, and with the objectives such as they are, there dosen't seem to be much room for maneuver, at least in the early game with the Germans landing right on top of their objectives (and the allied forces). Fortunately, the combat sequence provides enough spice to keep things interesting. I thought that the solitaire rating on the box was a bit off due to the hidden nature of the naval game. Certainly very playable solitaire, just that I don't feel that the game should have been rated at the top of the scale. In any event, I am looking forward to diving into the campaign game this weekend. I must commend you on a very well written rulesbook. It is clear and concise and overall enjoyable to read. I did, however, have a few questions: 1)The paralyzation rule gives the commonwealth forces a movement allowance of "1" on the first game turn. If the Germans successfully interdict the Maleme/Suda sector on game turn 1, this movement allowance will be reduced to "0". Do the commonwealth forces in the Maleme/Suda sector that has been inderdicted at level 1 or 2 on game turn 1 still get to make the minimum 1 hex movement, or are they, in effect, frozen in place? 2)There is a hexside terrain feature which I cannot seem to find any description of. An example is hexside W 1325/1425. What is this terrain, and what is it's effect on play? 3)Does an artillery unit which becomes dispersed have it's bombartment factor halved? 4)There appears to be a discrepancy between the German airborne HQ efficiency factors. The counters have a 7, while the German setup card shows a factor of 8. Which is correct? Also, I have a quickie regarding 3 DoG and the "new GBACW system". From what I have read, it appears that the new game system is not compatible with the older games in the GBACW series. Will there be any effort to publish the changes necessary to bring some of the older titles in line with the new game system? I would love to play First Blood without using the TCT. Not that I didn't like the TCT, as I thought it made the games very tense and exciting, just that it takes flippin' forever. The system was both fast moving and slow moving at the same time (if that makes any sense). Dave Starry. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 151 Fri Sep 08, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:55 EDT Before proceeding with the latest round of answers and errata, I should point out to Jim W that 3DoG was NOT rushed to completion. It had finished beta testing way before it went in-house. What made it difficult were out-of-house problems (e.g., changes in counter design) that pushed the production to the "edge". Having said that, note the following changes to the use of Mounted cavalry (the boys over on AoL have been much sharper than you folks): 1. The -1 DRM when mounted cav is the target applies only when it is moving - which means as part of b/1 and b/2 Reaction Fire. 2. The +1 DRM against "stationary" mtd cav applies at all other times. 3. Mounted cav has a DRM of -1 when it fires; that is ia -2 DRM when it fires as part of/during movement. 4. The max number of Mounted Cav SPs that can fire out of a hex is 4 (not 7 as with infantry and dsmtd cav). And Dave S, we do not plan on releasing any "updating" kits for old GBACW games; we do plan on redoing the battles, though . . . . In answer to Pete L's Big Al q's: 1. Yes 2. No 3. I don't think that ever does occur, come to think of it . . . . 4. Yes 5. No; no effect for additional movement when in Col 6. Yes 7. You can Reverse (3 MP) 8. Macedonians More, I'm sure, to come . . . . .RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 152 Fri Sep 08, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner(0-5)] at 07:55 EDT Gene, I had 3 or 4 other questions (of which I can remember at least 2) on the new campaign rules for 8th Air Force. Q. With the fuel rules, how do you determine what level the joining/ intercepting aircraft arrive at? Q. What happened to the Abort option? Are bombers no longer allowed to abort missions, no matter how badly battered they are? Q. Using the fuel rules, it appears that the Komet has one and only one shot at incoming aircraft. Is that correct? Q. The new loaded penalties seem pretty severe. In particular the addition of the 30 mm gun pods seems to turn the plan into destroyers. Is that the intent? Q. The saturation bombing rules have been completely revamped - and are now nothing more than level bombing rules, with slight differences for altitude. What was the problem? I think I have some ideas, but I also have some ideas on how to correct them. Ok, I rememberd some more - thanks for your response. :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 153 Fri Sep 08, 1995 W.ARNSDORF [MARTY] at 18:15 EDT There are plenty of phalanxes to go round, my vote is for TERCIO! ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 154 Fri Sep 08, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 22:35 EDT to Dave Staryry - Errata on Operation Mercury should appear in C3i #6. I guess we will have to wait until it comes out.....Gene, when will that be? Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 155 Sat Sep 09, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 01:06 EDT Gee, am I that predictable Richard? :) Actually, despite my personal preference for a JC module, I think Tercio should be the next module released. Lots of modules, not to mention C3i scenarios, have been done for the Ancients end of GBoH. It's time LotN gets one. One, then the Gallic battles, the Jugurtha battles, Alesia... Gene, Did you get my email about the playtester's copy of Diado for James Burton? Ciao, Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 156 Sat Sep 09, 1995 MIH.SUPPORT [Ulrich] at 07:15 EDT To all Rise of the Luftwaffe fans: I just got the Spanish magazine "Alea" #22 which contains a Rise of the Luftwaffe campaign module for the Spanish Civil War. The text is in Spanish but translation of the key instructions is very easy. Included are 15 full color plane cards and 4 pilot counters - all have to be mounted on cardboard. The plane types are: SB-2, JU-52, CR-32 and Me 109B. I understand that Rich Erwin, the editor of Paper Wars (GEnie: R.Erwin2) imports a limited number of "Alea" copies to the USA. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 157 Sat Sep 09, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:30 EDT As if to validate the up-topic opinions, M go with TERCIO. (He gets to do Rocroi; I fumble around with White Mountain.) We're going to try for Xmas release . . . . the operative word being "try" here. Should be ready to announce playtesting by end of the month. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 158 Sat Sep 09, 1995 C.COFFEY3 [chip] at 11:03 EDT Richard: We finally had an opportunity to dive into 3DoG last night playing the Herr's Ridge Scenario. Terrific job and my regards to all involved. I like the changes in the GBACW system and am particulary fond of the fire as a part of movement rules, (something I have been a proponent of). I know, I know, I ended a sentence with a preposition, but wasn't it Churchill who said, "Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put." Anyway, I was hoping to be placed on the errata receipt list if at all possible. Also, what can we look at as the next game in the series? Thanks, Chip Coffey ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 159 Sat Sep 09, 1995 J.DUNNAM1 [JRD] at 11:47 EDT A few 3DoG questions: When firing a stacked battery of CSA guns of different section type, and assuming the fire modifier is different for each section, why can't you combine and use the worst modifier? A brigade of 5 CSA regiments moves so that all regiments move from within 4 to within 2 hexes of 3 USA regiments. Assuming that ONLY the last CSA regiment fires and none of the others do, can any of the USA regiments conduct Cease Movement fire at the other 4 CSA regiments? Really like the feel of this one. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 160 Sat Sep 09, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 14:08 EDT Gene, Welcome back! What's the status of our Waterloo update effort? Last I heard from you was before Origins. Do you still want me to work on it? Even though I think I know the answer already I'll ask again. What is the status of my Arctic Storm article? I emailed Rodger twice - no response. Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 161 Sat Sep 09, 1995 J.PETRANOVI1 [Jim P.] at 16:52 EDT I also own 3DoG, and I wouldn't ming getting fixed counters for ones with real problems, but I'ld rather get almost anything else before a "fixed" AK counter. If there in NOTHING else useful you can do, make the 3 guys I've seen complain about it happy, but this makes reprinting the upside down counters of VitW (which amused and annoyed some of you) seem critical. The AK abbreviation "problem" complaints are the most anal retentive stuff I've ever seen in wargaming. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 162 Sat Sep 09, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 18:15 EDT Jim P., You must be from Texas, or a fella who grew up anywhere else without a shred of state pride! I never claimed that the AK fix must take precedence over counters with more severe problems such as you mentioned. I only asked that it be done if possible and there is nothing retentive about that. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 163 Sun Sep 10, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:07 EDT Getting just a bit testy, aren't we . . . .I'm sure we'll find room for all the "redo's" somewhere; there aren't too many. To answer Jim the Dunner's q's: I suppose it would be OK to combine the fire (if eligible) and use the worst DRM. Couildn't hurt. I would think (other q) that any of the US regts that did not fire Return Fire could use Cease Movement Fire. . . . this is one of those q's that I'm not sure why there is a question. (Then again, maybe that's why there's a question in the first place.) Oh, and the next game in the GBACW series will be GRINGO, out probably early next spring. That will, most likely, be followed by the (very) tentatively entitled CLIMB EVERY MOUNTAIN (ooh boy): Cedar Mountain and South Mountain. We're still trying to decide on which "big" battle to do next (Origins 97). RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 164 Sun Sep 10, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 11:46 EDT Jim, Re: allocating extra time in the prod cycle - be careful, pretty soon everyone will figure out that's what we do at The Gamers, and soon no one will believe us when we say PFM:) Rich and Gene, While I heartily concur that some errata will slip thru no matter how many times the game is proofed, bear in mind one of Rich's favorite themes - perception VS reality. The Perception is that rushing the game leads to more errors. That kind of customer image takes a long time to recover, and I urge you guys to avoid the perception any way possible. At some point, it matters little whether or not the game was adaquately proofed, it the lingering image is "Rush Job"... Dave Powell BTW, I'm perfectly happy with my copy - the errata is easily digestible, with no game stoppers... ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 165 Sun Sep 10, 1995 D.VOHLERS at 20:48 EDT Gene & Kevin: I have some questions on Crisis:Sinai I'm hoping you can answer. 1. The Golan Front Air Commitment occurs during the Maintenance Step. According to the special rules for the first turn (October 6), there is no Maintenance Step that turn. Why then is there a special die roll for Golan Commitment that turn? 2. Reinforcements. A. I assume Tamari comes on with the Comb. HQ on Oct. 21 as mentioned in 13.1.3. B. I assume (from looking at later scenario setups) that the engineer battalions and AT companies for the 143 Inf. and 162 Inf. divisions should arrive with their respective HQs on the October 6 night turn.(And the ATs should be non-TOW.) C. What is the unit type of the Israeli 3-0-6 unit that arrives October 9 night? Para? D. Why are there so many extra Israeli battalions of various types? For instance, there are 4 TI67 battalions in the counter mix, but the most that I see appearing anywhere is 2. 3. The rules for the strikes and arty bombardments both say to use 1 die when rolling on the Bombardment/Strike table. The table itself, however, says "Dice Roll." I assume the chart is in error. 4. Can you conduct multiple air strikes against the same unit in the same air phase? 5. Under a strict reading of 9.1.1, while units that are ferried across the canal the first turn have used all their movement allowance, they have not crossed a bridge and have only moved one hex. Therefore, their attacks are not hasty. Is that correct? 6. Is it considered a hasty attack if some attacking units have a hasty attack marker and some don't? 7. If a unit is air transported and survives next to an enemy unit, is it's attack considered hasty? (Again, the rules would seem to indicate no, but since it uses all of its MA to do this I wanted to check.) 8. Section 9.2.6 says that terrain effects are a dice roll modifier; the TEC says they are column shifts. Which are they? 9. Section 15.5 says units attacking across the Suez canal have their combat factors reduced by two-thirds; the TEC says by half. Which is it? 10. Radar and SAM shifts. There are several ambiguities regarding the shifts printed on these tracks. A. Under 18.4.3, step 2, there is mention of 1L and 2L shifts on SAM tracks. None of the tracks on the map have such notations. The Radar tracks, however, do have such shifts, but there is no mention of them in the rules or on the Radar Detection Table. B. The SAM Fire Table says to use the -1 mods that are printed on the Radar and SAM tracks only if the strike or CAS is against the track itself. The example of play in the playbook, however, uses those mods when the strike is against a regular combat unit. Which is it? C. Please verify that the bottom 3 boxes on the Port Said Radar track should show both shifts and die roll mods, and that the top 3 boxes on the Suez Radar track should not have any die roll mods. D. The Radar Detection Table has a column for a 10 radar value. Since the highest any track goes is a value of 9, how does one get a value of 10? Am I missing a shift somewhere? Thanks for your help. Dick ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 166 Sun Sep 10, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 22:52 EDT Gene or Richard, Was the War Elephant module a straight reprint, or were the rules and counters updated to bring it in line with SPQR II e.g. all the SKs' strengths are now 1. Thanks, Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 167 Mon Sep 11, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:43 EDT Having not received my copies of WE from Gene yet (ahem), I can but surmise that we did not re-do the counters. I may be wrong . . . .but you should be playing that all SKs have a strength of '1', regardless what it says on the counter. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 168 Tue Sep 12, 1995 J.GEORGE [Cromwell] at 00:19 EDT Just pulled Hornet Leader out of storage as my thirst for modern air games has hit a new peak. Were there ever any sequels to this game and is there any way to get the old expansions and additions that came out in the GMT newsletter? I remember when I bought the game a couple years ago that I spoke to someone at GMT and they said there was no longer a newsletter or something like that. I've downloaded the archive of all the HL discussion (70 messages) and was wondering if all the stuff that was being proposed and intended ever materialized. Does anybody still play this? Crom ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 169 Tue Sep 12, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner(0-5)] at 16:36 EDT RE: Hornet Leader There is a second game in the Leader series - It's Thunderbolt + Apache Leader. A very fine and fun game using much of the same concepts, but with many new ideas and twists. It's not the same game with different units, and is worth getting, particularly if you like Hornet Leader. And Gene can tell you about some of the other ones coming soon. :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 170 Tue Sep 12, 1995 J.GEORGE [Cromwell] at 18:43 EDT So, Grinner (or Gene), does this mean there =will= be further additions to this series? Regardless, does GMT have any of the old issues of it's newsletter containing the HL stuff, Gene? Jeff ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 171 Tue Sep 12, 1995 J.DUNNAM1 [JRD] at 21:03 EDT Richard Do you still have thick GUNS OF CEDAR CREEK counters for sale? Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 172 Wed Sep 13, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 04:01 EDT Gene, Did you manage to send me a playtester's copy of Diado for James Burton, yet? As I mentioned, I was hoping to give him his copy this Saturday. Richard, Thanks for the info on WE. Ciao, Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 173 Wed Sep 13, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:25 EDT Jim, yes, I still have some of the new, thick Cedars; send me $10 and they're yours . . . .RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 174 Wed Sep 13, 1995 GCOURTER [Grimner] at 20:34 EDT Jeff, > So, Grinner (or Gene), does this mean there =will= be further additions > to this series? As I understand it, there are at least 2 other additions to the Leader series. Gene is working on Phantom Leader (Viet Nam of course) and they've been threatening Corsair Leader on us for a few years now. And also some talk of a ground game using this system. Gene can give any details. :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 175 Thu Sep 14, 1995 J.DUNNAM1 [JRD] at 00:09 EDT The $10 is on the way. 3DoG ??? Where are abandoned guns mentioned in the rules? If an artillery stacked alone in a hex loses a Shock, can they retreat? Does advance after fire, and advance after shock trigger reaction so that a newly adjacent enemy may change facing? Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 176 Thu Sep 14, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:06 EDT Jim D: The abandoned gun rule was cashiered at the last minute, as it was an unnecessary piece of chrome. Remnants remain, like appendices . . . What do you mean by "loses a Shock"? What specific result? perhaps 8.7.3 covers what you're looking for. And, yes . . . . All of the above for only $10; just think . . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 177 Thu Sep 14, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 09:55 EDT Jeff, There are currently two Leader projects in design stage. First, Danger Zone, which was originally a HL module, is being redone as a complete game covering the command of three squadrons (F-14, A-6, F/A-18) on a carrier. Dan has the ball on this one right now. We're looking for a Spring release, assuming we can get all the kinks out. And yes, I'm working (sporadically, between other stuff) on the Phantom Leader game, which currently only has Thuds in it (go figure!) coveing the bombing campaigns over North Vietnam from 65-68. It will include both Phantoms and Thuds, plenty of Wild Weasels, and peripehral aircraft not in your command to help out with the strikes (naval aviation, etc.). I've done most of the research, but game design is being slowed by all the other games that I'm developing for our designers. I'd say about a year before this one's released. Ah, thanks Greg, for reminding me about the oft-threatened Corsair Leader. The plan is that Dan will handle the design (mostly) on that one, and that he'll coordinate it with the first PAcific game in the DiF series, so he can double up on the research. So this one's still in the dreaming stage. Of the other games we feedbacked in C3i, Zero Leader and Stuka Leader did ok, while the modern stuff bombed. So, we're unsure about other additions, although, if sales continue to be good on the series, I'm sure we'll find tohers to do. BTW, I haven't forgotten about the 8AF questions. I've passed them to Dan to see what he thinks and will get back to you as soon as I get definitive answers. Fall Schedule: Glory Norway Samurai SPQR Player's Guide I'll be back on with details and pre-order prices at least by Monday. HAve Fun! Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 178 Thu Sep 14, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 18:28 EDT I don't recall if this was addressed before, so I'll list it again in case anyone is interested. In the Diadochoi battle of Gaza, 5 infantry units are missing from the Ptolemy/Seleucus army. They are Macedonian PH (1-5) Hexes 1618 thru 1627 This should help out Ptomely just a tad. :) Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 179 Thu Sep 14, 1995 B.LAROSE [BENLAR] at 21:05 EDT Hello all, I have questions on Victory in the West and so far, I got no reply from the designer (he must be busy designing, I guess...). Anyway. Can somebody help me clarify the following? 1- Bridges: 20.25 says you can capture/attempt to destroy a bridge while trying to cross it. Does "crossing" means spending bridge MP cost? What if you just say "I'll spend river crossing MP costs instead of bridge MP costs"? Can you automatically capture the bridge intact like this (such as when you seize both banks of the river)? 2- Air Supply and HQs: 15.6 allows air supply for SPs. Since 15.22 allows a combat unit to be in supply from a HQ that is itself supplied, does getting air supply to a 1 SP Corps allows in turn supply for an unlimited number of SPs or if SPs getting supply from that HQ count toward the limit? 3- Fortresses and Destruction: 9.83 Fortresses are destroyed by Bold results on Combat Table. Do you use net or natural die roll? i.e. do you apply -2 and see if this is now a bold result? We find that using net results makes it perhaps too much difficult for the germans to destroy a fortress even at 10-1, considering the fact that "0" is never bold. Is this a design decision? Is there or do you know of any Aide de Camp module for VITW? Is there any errata for VITW? Thx Benoit ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 180 Thu Sep 14, 1995 J.DUNNAM1 [JRD] at 22:04 EDT RHB 8.7.3 talks about artillery stacked with infantry/cavalry. Then it talks about "if forced to retreat". What about if the artillery was NOT stacked with infantry/cavalry and yet is forced to retreat? Seems the guns would be captured/eliminated. The advancing after shock causes facing reaction, then it is impossible to roll up someone's flank unless you have them pinned in the front. Is this what is intended? Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 181 Thu Sep 14, 1995 R.ROBBERSON1 [Highlander] at 22:35 EDT But whatever happened to the strategic Civil War game that Herman and Berg were working on? One of the games that I was really looking forward to seems to be dying on the vine. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 182 Fri Sep 15, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:21 EDT It is not dying on the vine, Robbo, it is just that some games have a somewhat lobger gestation period than others. This is one of them. Jim, there is no specific "retreat" result; that usually happens when a unit suffers a second Disorder . . . and there is a specific rule for when arty suffers a 2nd Disorder. And remember, changing facing as a reaction is not automatic . . . it requires a UDD, and one that can bring some rather nasty results. Several people have asked about Doubleday coming in at Area 13 and the resultant SM problems when crossing Marsh Creek. So - and because we the SM SM rule was written when there was no Fatigue rule - the following "addition": When using the Fatigue Rule, a unit using SM may enter any hex, regardless of the cost, during such movement. In addition, units entering #13 may cross Marsh Creek and remain in SM (as an Exception). Sal . . .I noticed that, too, but I kept waiting for Mark to make some sort of validationary comment. . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 183 Fri Sep 15, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 12:02 EDT Benoit, I'll see if Kevin or Tony can answer your Q's. There is some errata for VITW. I'll e-mail it to you. No ADC module for VITW as yet.We are doing some ADC production, though. I'll announce as modules are ready. Pre-orders: Here's what's coming, pricing, and deadlines: The Battle for Norway, 1940 (Better title in the works) $36 Pre-order $29 Uses the basic Britian Stands Alone ground system. Air-naval has been streamlined but still very interactive. Designer Kevin Boylan. Developed by me and Tony Curtis. Glory. First in our "Game Players" series, designed for faster play (2-4 hours, usually) but still interesting and challenging. This one covers Bull Run 1 & 2, plus Chickamauga. Designed by Richard Berg. 2 Maps, 2 countersheets (1 x 1/2", 1 x 5/8") $36 Pre-order $29 Samurai. Long-awaiting Volume V in GBoH series. Designed of course, by Richard Berg and Mark Herman (flipped a coin Mark, his name went first!). Covers six battles of the Age of Warring States in Japan (1560-1600). I'll let Richard enlighten concerning system details. Battles covered are: Okehazama (1560), Kawanakajima (1561), Anegawa (1570), Mikata-ga- hara (1572), Nagashino (1575), and Sekigahara (1600). 2 back-printed maps and a bunch of what should be the best GBoH counters yet (Rodger LOVES this period). $45 Pre-order $36. SQPR Player's Guide: This is a new type of product from us, borne of many requests from SPQR players for an in-depth help book on tactics, extended examples, etc. So, we're creating a product, not unlike the ASL annual, which includes detailed articles on tactics by some of the "best" SPQR players we could find (no, Richard, you weren't on that list !), battle-by-battle discussions on strategies for victory for each of the SPQR battles and those of the four modules, a couple of new battles, and a few other surprises. We want this to be a "must- have" for SPQR players. Because this is a first-timer for us, we're selling it almost exclusively by pre-order (we're going to print what we have orders for plus about 250). We want to determine interset without costing the company a lot of money. Price is $15. We'll take orders until October 30 to determine print-run. Release Dates: We intend to publish all of these before year-end. However, having been willing to take the sage advice of Mark, Richard, Dean, Dave, and about a thousand other gamers, we're going to give ourselves a little leeway on promised release date (oops, how could I forget Jim Werbaneth? Thanks, Jim!). So, here's the promise: If we miss a release date on a game, you get the game (at the pre-order price) AND a voucher for $30 off any other GMT boxed game. This takes away the pressure of "we have to give ALL that money back" from us, while still giving you guys a great deal (in most cases, a $2- 10 game). Release dates are as follows (again, we expect to ship well in advance of these, but this is what we're PROMISING): Norway: December 15, 1995 Glory: December 30, 1995 Samurai: January 15, 1996 There's no promised date on the SPQR player's guide. We don't have it all together yet (if it turns out that we're wrong and only a few guys want it, we'll refund money), but expect to ship it near Christmas-time. Ordering: You can order, as always, by e-mail, mail or phone, as follows: E-mail to GMT.GAMES (from the Internet gmt.games@genie.geis.com) by phone at (800)523-6111 (overseas 209-583-1236) by mail to: GMT Games PO Box 1308 Hanford, CA 93232 Shipping: Same as normal; $4 for the first game, +$2 for each additional; SPQR Player's guide add $2 for shping. September stock special: As we're just about out of space, we're offering the following special on in-stock (not pre-order) items: Buy any ONE game at regular price, and get a second game of equal or lesser price for just $10! Add shipping as above. Great deal, huh? Enjoy the games! ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 184 Fri Sep 15, 1995 M.SZARKA [Mike] at 18:43 EDT Gene: I'm extremely pleased that GMT is producing ADC modules. I've come to realize that even some fairly interactive games work fine with PBEM, since players can do a partial move quickly and shoot it back to their opponent. The $15+shipping price for the SPQR gamer's guide sounds a tad steep; however, I suppose it will be something many of us will want to buy regardless. You can reserve one for me with my credit card #, which I presume you still have from previous orders. Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 185 Fri Sep 15, 1995 P.POMERANTZ1 [Phil] at 23:15 EDT Mike, The ASL Annual currently lists for $26, by comparison to the SPQR guide, and the last one had numerous typos and errors in scenarios. Phil ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 186 Fri Sep 15, 1995 J.DUNNAM1 [JRD] at 23:16 EDT You can put me down for one of the SPQR player guides. You should have my account information as well. RHB, Do you think the 3DoG system would work with GUNS OF CEDAR CREEK and FIRST BLOOD (with a little home conversion of the leaders and just adding 3 to all morale ratings)? Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 187 Fri Sep 15, 1995 R.DUMKE [Russ] at 23:52 EDT Rich or Mark, Here's another quick Diadochoi Q: exactly which counters are used for Eumenes' Merc HI at Paraitacene? Also, has the exact whereabouts of the Tlepster at Gaza been determined? Scanning the last batch of files as they DL'd, didn't look like this was mentioned. Speaking of Gaza, I tried it right after I got the module. (Great job on this, guys, but-Gene-it needed PROOFREADING badly!) Anyway, Demetrius shifted all his ELs to his right in an attempt to crush Ptolemy's HI by taking them in the flank. The latter responded by forming a line of SKs and putting these out in front of the ELs. Demetrius thought his ELs would make a hask of the SK and charged them. Big mistake. One of the stampeding herd went and stomped Demetrius, who evidently didn't think he needed to get out of the way. End of Battle. Russ ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 188 Sat Sep 16, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:07 EDT Need a few QUICKIE PLAYTESTERS . . . to test out the new Phalanx and Elephant rules for the system. We'll be running Heraclea for the PHs and probably Paraetacene for the EL rules . . . . sign up starts now. Note that these 2 rules will be applicable system-wide, so this is not just a Dochoi Cleanup . . . Jim D. You probably could, although the leader ratings are all quite different . . .and I didn't just add 3 for the Morale (all it wasn't much more complex). Then again, as I always say . . .I made it up, so could you . . . . Russ, I had the same question when setting up Parata . . .I can't remember what I came up with,but I do remember answering it while doing the set-up. I don't think it matters that much, although I do remember the Mercs I used were 5-ers (at least I think so). Gene: how 'bout SARDINE? (Thinkl about it . . .two big guys fighting over a real small fish, etc etc . . . I'm not sure how the Norwegians will like it, tho . . .) RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 189 Sat Sep 16, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:15 EDT Clarification on GLORY. The time of play is for 1st Manassas, only. The game is designed with a minimum of rules (6-7 pages, including intros, etc.) and no CRTs . . .making for highly accessible play. The playtimes of the individual games depends on counter turn #s. It does have 4 different ways to play, tho . . . something which should appeal across a wide swath of gaming, from Igo-Hugoers to fullt-tilt randomizers. They all work. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 190 Sat Sep 16, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 08:12 EDT Gene, Are you sssure you didn't have the 1st edition draft of Diado when we last spoke? ;) BTW, any word on that playtester copy for James Burton. I happen to have some playtest material saved for Diado, and will try to answer placement questions that arise. (Working on the last one asked.) Richard, In case I don't get thru to you on the phone, count me in on testing the new rules for GBoH. I'd also like to add a new cavalry pursuit rule that would apply system wide as well, but naturally I'll leave it up to you and Mark to give the final OK on it. Ciao, Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 191 Sat Sep 16, 1995 M.SZARKA [Mike] at 09:27 EDT ======= To: P.POMERANTZ1 [Phil] ======= > The ASL Annual currently lists for $26, by comparison to the SPQR > guide, and the last one had numerous typos and errors in scenarios. Sheesh, I had no idea they were charging that much. Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 192 Sat Sep 16, 1995 P.PERLA at 12:40 EDT Gene, Did you get the e-mail I sent you while you were off? I have spoken to Fritz Heinzen about representing us in licensing negotiations with Fox. We are still in preliminary stages but I would like to discuss it with you. \OOPS-- probably should have sent that as e mail, but what the hey. Anyway, let me know if you are interested. Also, if you want any help with the SPQR Manual, let me kn ow. Richard, conunt us in oin playtesting the EL and PH rules. Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 193 Sat Sep 16, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 16:14 EDT Gene- A very exciting future-releases list, but isn't there a new issue of C3i due soon as well? The SPQR Guide is evidence that a prediction I made earlier this year (not here, I'm afraid) is coming true. GBoH is going to be the next ASL. Sometime in '96 or '97 look for the "standard rules" in a 3-ring binder, with modules covering specific periods of history from chariot-era Egyptians through the English Civil War. Am I right? -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 194 Sat Sep 16, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 16:21 EDT Is the SPQR Gamer's Guide going to have all new material, or is it going to reprint articles from C3i? Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 195 Sat Sep 16, 1995 M.SZARKA [Mike] at 17:33 EDT I hope the Gamer's Guide at least contains consolidated errata for all games, including SPQR II - up until Richard and Mark's most contemporary tinkering, anyway. Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 196 Sat Sep 16, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 17:43 EDT Jim, We're looking at all-new material, although we may use portions of stuff we've used before (for example, Rich Phares' Elephants article). When you think about it, we haven't really done much on strategies or tactics for the system or the specific battles, concentrating instead on creating new modules and battles for the system. This new stuff Richard and Mark are testing would also be the type of thing we'd want to include as well. If you're interested in putting together an article, drop me an e-mail or give me a call. Joe, HAdn't even thought about that. I dunno, though. My initial reactions to having to shell out $80 for the ASL binder and first game after buying all four of the SL games was not good, and not something I would want to engender in guys who've bought our games. Deluxe Al was an exception, as we basically completely recreated the entire game. One the whole, though, I'd rather "upgrade" the systems with rules/charts sets that are pretty inexpensive (ala the SPQR 2nd ed. upgrade at $6) rather than put off some of our loyal customers by asking them to rebuy the games. Yes, Rodger is working on #6 now. This one has big focus on WWII stuff, but will include GBoH battle and new scenarios for 3-Dog, among other things. Peter, I got your e-mail. Can you send me a prototype of what you've put together? Thanks. Yeah, Mike, the ASL ANnual has gotten pretty expensive. The idea for us with this product is to create a companion to the system (and at this point we do don't plan to make it a yearly production) that will give beginner and grognard alike helpful insights to enhance the play experience (not to mention the new battles). Size-wise, it'll be at least the size of a C3i issue, and will have some neat "surprise" goodies included, as well. Enjoy! Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 197 Sun Sep 17, 1995 D.VOHLERS at 08:46 EDT Gene: Did you manage to get the Crisis:Sinai questions that I posted about a week ago to Kevin after he returned? Any idea when he might be able to get to them? Thanks, Dick ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 198 Sun Sep 17, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 08:51 EDT Dick, Kevin should be back home late today. I imagine he'll check the topic in the next coupla days. I'll talk with him by phone tomorrow, and give him a heads-up on the questions. Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 199 Sun Sep 17, 1995 P.PERLA at 21:25 EDT Gene, I am working on the prototype now. I will send you a brief description and follow up with more stuff as I complete it. Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 200 Sun Sep 17, 1995 A.FOY2 [byAl Foy] at 23:36 EDT Can anyone tell me how I can get a complete catalogue of GMT games and ADC modules, specifically GBoH games and modules. Thanks, Al ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 201 Sun Sep 17, 1995 J.PETRANOVI1 [Jim P.] at 23:38 EDT One thing I would like to see in a GBoH guide would be rules for campaigns to link related scenarios, like the rules in original Alex. Possible campaigns: Alex vs. Persia, Hannibal vs. Rome, Phyrrus vs. Rome, Scipio versus Carthage, JC versus the Senate. These wouldn't require new battles, though I guess really testing them could be hard. I like the idea because it encourges playing the more unbalanced battles with at least quasi-historical conditions. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 202 Mon Sep 18, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:31 EDT I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentence, Jim. All I know is that doing such an excersise in linear thinking produces some truly goof-ball anomalies. And you have to make half the stuff up . . .really make it up. It also means coming up with rational possibilities where the parameters for such do not exist. (All we have are combat units and leaders.) I'm not sure I want to get involved in such a project . . .at least not on an SPQR Book level. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 203 Mon Sep 18, 1995 R.TAYLOR77 [Roger] at 22:49 EDT Gene, I'm very pleased with your December releases. =Narvik= was my favorite game at one time. (An aside for Europa junkies: Was the range of the Ju88 overstated at 40?) If you're still looking for a title for the Norway game, how about this: Weseruebung: The Invasion of Norway Or, if that is too reminiscent of "Rhein Bung", there's: Exercise Weser: The Invasion of Norway And now, for something completely different: Norwegian Blue: Pining for the Fjords -- Roger *p ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 204 Tue Sep 19, 1995 D.STARRY at 03:17 EDT I was curious as to why neither Vance nor Gene saw fit to answer my Operation Mercury questions (post #150, 9/8/95). Do I really have to wait for the next issue of C3i for the errata? In any event, I have another Op. Merc. question. In regards to a unit which has a movement allowance of 5 being able to move directly from one ZOC to another,does this apply only for the printed MA or for the modified MA? That is to say, can a Commonwealth unit with a printed movement allowance of 5 in a zone which has been interdicted by the Luftwaffe still move directly from one ZOC to another, or is this ability now denied since it's movement allowance has been reduced. This seems to be a big issue, for example, I found while playing scenario 1 recently. If the Maleme/Suda sector has been successfully interdicted, it becomes quite difficult for the Commonwealth to reinforce Maleme airfield if not able to move directly from one ZOC to another. The Luftwaffe can bomb the AA and company holding the airfield at thebeginning of the game and than the fallschirmjagers can move right in. On another note, I laid down my hard earned $50.00 (after discount plus sales tax) for my copy of 3DoG last week. I am overjoyed to finally own a TSS game after all these years. Whether or not I will like how Richard's new vision of how this thing should operate at this point in time remains to be seen. I own both LOO and AFV (MiH) and have a bit of experience with the Blenheim scenario from the latter. I enjoy the LIM system for my solitaire sessions as it kind of makes a decision for me on what to move next rather than letting me agonize over the next "best move". I do find that there is a lot of die rolling involved though. This was also a frequent complaint about the TCT too, but in a different fashion. Now we find that combat yields multiple die rolling (whereas the old GBACW combat tables simply yielded a set result). I was curious as to why Richard insists on making the "0" on a ten sider a "0" rather than a "10". This seem to make it more difficult to envision a true percentage (i.e., a unit with a factor of 7 will retain good order 80% of the time rather than making the "0" a ten and the same unit getting a factor of 8 which seems to make more sense). Just curious. Anyway, the maps are beautiful. Always have liked Rick's work and "feel for the period". The addition of color to his work makes them that much more stunning. Counters also rate a "5". Now, if we could do something about the box covers... Dave Starry. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 205 Tue Sep 19, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:15 EDT Dave brings up one of the interesting "dilemnas" (sp?) facing designers: what is "too much" dierolling. Now, boviously, we'd all like some sort of system . . . . boviously??? hmmm, neat word, must mean "what is obvious to cows" . . . that eschews dierolling (like the one Mark H has come up with for BELLUM). However, that means that a spread of possible results is eliminated. My feeling is that you use a die to determine which of a spread of results applies . . . and that application should be immediate and important. (As opposed to, say, rolling for each shell fired by a gun when it's the end result of cumulative fire that yields the result). To that end there is a lot of DRing in 3DoG, because there are a lot of combat units engaging in a lot of combat. Thus, a lot of DRs. By the way, there IS a slight difference between having a 0-9 spread and a 1-10 spread, in that '0' has no value, which creates some interesting math situations when adding two dice, etc. Also, all my dice have a '0', not a '10'. . . and that's how I read 'em. Quirky at best. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 206 Tue Sep 19, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 09:21 EDT Dave, My apologies. I saw that post when I was sick, and thought Vance was going to (or already had) answered it. I'll download it and take a look. The asnwer to your new question is "use the printed MA to determine ability to move ZOC to ZOC." Interdiction makes life for the Allies tough enough without adding that burden to them. Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 207 Tue Sep 19, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 09:26 EDT Ok, DAve, I can help with three out of four (I don't have my Mercury map here at home, so I'll have to check on it later). 1. commonwealth forces in the Suda are can alway move the 1 hex, regardless of interdiction level. 3. No, dispersal does not cause the bombardment factor toobe halved. 4. The counters are right. 8's were just too darn good. We made the change late, and neglected to change the set-up cards. Hope this helps. Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 208 Tue Sep 19, 1995 ALAN.EMRICH at 10:30 EDT "Norwegian Blue: Pining for the Fjords" Gene, you give the game THAT title and I'll even buy one!! -Alan Emrich ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 209 Tue Sep 19, 1995 M.SZARKA [Mike] at 18:58 EDT Isn't it good, Norwegian Wood. MS ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 210 Tue Sep 19, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 21:15 EDT For the Norway game's title: How about Rhein Bung Hole? Ehhh ehhhh mmm... that would be cool. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 211 Wed Sep 20, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 06:49 EDT Gene, This is about the third or fourth time I've asked. Could you please give me some indication as when the playtester's copy of Diado for James Burton went or will go out? Richard, Do you want me to write directly to you regarding our impressions of the new PH/EL/SK rules, or do you want me to post them here? Thanks, Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 212 Wed Sep 20, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:01 EDT You can e-mail me, Sal ... as in the usual playtesting fashion. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 213 Wed Sep 20, 1995 MIH.SUPPORT [Ulrich] at 13:03 EDT Mark & Richard: Does a compilation of the Diadoci errata exist? Gene: Do you have a release date for Tercio and C3I #6? ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 214 Wed Sep 20, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 19:27 EDT Gene, Never mind. Diado arrived today. James Burton thanks you. Well he won't know about it until later, but I'm sure he'll be pleased. :) Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 215 Thu Sep 21, 1995 J.PETRANOVI1 [Jim P.] at 02:36 EDT Rich, what I meant is that there is no reason to play certain SPQR scenarios under historical rules more than once. Cannae, Trebius, and most of Scipio's battles fall into this realm. Also, there is a slight "end of the world" effect in these battles sometimes, in that the victor need to care about losses. (Phyrrus would have like that.) A "string" of battles can make things more interesting. It is quirky, in that it isn't really historical, but the alternative is a non-existant stategical level game. Any way, if you don't like it, don't do it. Gene, ever find out if you sent me Diadocchi? Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 216 Thu Sep 21, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:22 EDT I've been yammering for years that many, if not most, "victory conditions" place restraints - and put goals - on players that are not "realistic". On the other hand, using a % of losses after which an army will no longer fight, is about as close as you can get to reality. What GBoH games do not have is a time limit (except where it was a factor). One has to be very careful with that sort of thing; e.g., it makes the Germantown scenario (I think that's the one) in Rebels and Redcoats a total farce. (Wha'd they all have in the afternoon, another, previously scheduled engagement?) I'm not sure that placing a battle as part of a campaign changes any of the above, Jim. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 217 Thu Sep 21, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 10:01 EDT Jim, I sent you e-mail regarding orders. Should be arriving any day. BTW, I agree with you about an operational/strategic "feel" that joins battles. I t seems though, that implementation falls well short of expectation in this case. Yes, we could (and will) do a strategic game that lets you resolve battles (if you wish) using the GBoH system. Even there, established how many and what kind of troops you get, and what type of ground you fight over when moving from strategic to tactical is not easy. And, when you go back from the battle to the strat. game, you have somewhat the same difficulty. The real problme here is the same one you have with playing the tactical battles of Ligny and QB, then using the losses to play Waterloo. We'd be assuming a whole bunch of things that the historical general wasn't faced with, and fighting a battle that, given different results in the first day's battles, might not even have occurred. Same with Pyrrhus, Hannibal in Italy, or just about any other strategic campaign recreation you want to do. On the whole, if I were going to try this, I'd rather have the strategic game in place to give "meaning" to the battles, rather than try to come up with some formula for losses between battles for a campaign. That said, if anyone comes up with a good system for what Jim wants, please do let us know. Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 218 Thu Sep 21, 1995 M.SZARKA [Mike] at 18:07 EDT The "fight to the last man" syndrome in tactical games is pretty hard to avoid. One reason for this, is that even if you wanted to, it's hard to disengage in most games. Some of this is due to the lack of fog-of-war. A rear-guard shooting lots of bullets cannot fool the enemy while a retreat is underway. I imagine most ancient battles ended in some sort of rout anyway. I don't know whether the victors generally did or did not aggressively pursue a routing army with the intent to kill everything standing - perhaps that was not the culture of the times. As for victory conditions, wasn't it Jack Radey who tried to avoid writing them, since he felt it should be obvious to the players whether they had won or lost? It seems to me that the only thing worse than victory conditions is a lack of them. In a game such as GBoH, perhaps a "Pyrrhic victory" should be no victory at all, depending on the victor's losses. Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 219 Thu Sep 21, 1995 K.BOYLAN2 at 20:19 EDT TO: D. Vohlers, Sorry about the delay, but there are the answers to your Sinai quest- ions. #1 There is no Golan Front Commitment roll on the Oct 6 day turn. #2 Yes, Tamari arrives with the Comp Bde HQ, and stacks with 162n div HQ. Yest, the divsiional support units (with non-TOW antitank cos) arrive at the same time, and in the same placs, as the divisional HQs. The unit thT arrives on the Oct 9 night turn is a para battalion. #3 The rules are in error, a 2D6 dice roll is used when resolving an Airstrike or Bombardment. #4 Yes, you can fly an unlimited number of Strikes against the same target in a single phase or turn. #5 yes, a unit that is ferried across the canal does not receive a Hasty Attack marker. #6 The Hastry Attack modifier is applied if even one attacking unit has a Hastry Attack marker. #7 No, an airtransorted unit that lands next to an enemy unit does not receive a Hastry Attack marker. #8 Delete the entry in 9.2.6 that refers to Terrain effect die rolls. This was left in the rules by error from an earlier version of the combat system. #9 THe TEC is right. A unit attacking across the Canal is havled. #10 The entries in 18.4.3 should say that the !l 1L and 2L notations appear on the Radar Tracks. The example of play is wrong, the -1 modifier applies only when Strike missions attack the SAM or Radar tracks. DELETE the -1 notation in the Port Said Radar #5, #3, and #1 boxds. ADD the -1 notation in the Suez radar #7, #8, and #9 boxes. ADD the -1 notation in the Suez SAM #6 box. The 10 column on the Radar Detection Table is another survivor from an earlier version of the air system. P.S. The"estra" Israeli battalions were included because OB and TO&E reserch were going on right up unitil the end of the production cycle, and we thought it advisable to keep some extras in case we confirmed the presence of an additional brigade or two at the eleventh hour. Hope this covers all your problems. Plaese feel free to pass on any others questions that might come up. Kevin ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 220 Thu Sep 21, 1995 D.VOHLERS at 21:44 EDT Kevin: Thanks for the C:S '73 answers. They look complete at first glance. I hope to get back to the game, but I'm in the midst of a game of 3DoG at the moment so it may be a while.... Dick ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 221 Thu Sep 21, 1995 J.PETRANOVI1 [Jim P.] at 22:50 EDT Thanks for the comments. I personally like everything in context, so I like the idea that losses to the stronger side are a concern. I don't really like the bidding system for most GBoH battles. A few, like the Phyrric battles, work okay with it. And the very interesting Alex battles are marred by the gross imbalance. That's why I'ld like some linkage. On another topic, it occurred to me that bidding on Darius's ratings (rage, init) in Alex might ne a more fun balance than bidding. It was bad luck for the Persians anyway--what if Darius had been a better commander? What do you think? ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 222 Fri Sep 22, 1995 J.DUNNAM1 [JRD] at 00:05 EDT 3DoG ??? If fords cut 1 off movement over the obsticle, for Infantry across Creek do you still use the "D", thus +3D instead of +4D? Or is it just +3? What about artillery moving across a Creek at a ford? Can it do it, and at what cost? With Doubleday possibly coming in behind a creek this came up in our last game. Great game. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 223 Fri Sep 22, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:22 EDT Jim, ifd you look again (or read the rules wection covering fords) you'll notice that fords also negate the "D". Also, remember the errata that allows you to cross that creek using StratMove (or ignore the MP restrict- ions entirely when using the Fatigue rule). Jim P: I think I mentioned this on another topic, but trying to find balanced battles (histrotically) is less a research effort than a "quest". The reality of game design is that most battles are NOT balanced. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 224 Fri Sep 22, 1995 J.DUNNAM1 [JRD] at 19:25 EDT RHB What? Read the rules? I should have thought of that. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 225 Sat Sep 23, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:35 EDT Nah, Jim . . .why do something no one else does . . . .RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 226 Sat Sep 23, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 14:50 EDT A 3DoG query: can a Strategic Move marker be involuntarily removed, e.g. by taking artillery fire and receiving a disorder result? Have just started Day One. Fastest-playing ACW regimental game I've ever played, without sacrificing realism (in fact, quite the opposite). I think it's finally time to auction off my old copies of TSS. -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 227 Sun Sep 24, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:08 EDT Interesting question . . . and I think the answer is that such fire/result removes the SM marker, as the unit would be disordered and not in any shape to use such as SM. Actually, JC, it's time to put your TSS's away for future "reference" . . . altho I always think of tjis stuff as a false market, as they have little intrinsic value. Tangentially, the next C3i will include a Culp's Hill scenario . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 228 Sun Sep 24, 1995 M.HENDE [Mike] at 11:00 EDT Hi, Gene! I have some rather serious rules questions re: Typhoon. Here goes: 1) When do you remove overrun and interdiction markers? I can't seem to find this in the rules. 2) Do roads negate rivers for movement purposes? All roads? What about railroads? And if they do, what use are the bridge markers? 3) In the supply rules section 6.16 (road nets) only main roads are mentioned. This can't be correct, can it? This would mean that Reinhardts Third Panzer group practically starts out of supply! I assume that the road net part of a supply line can use ANY road (or railroad). 4) The movement allowance chart (7.5.1) seems to be incorrect. Should Axis Motorized units really only have half movement in the motorized movement phase? This combined with the overrun problem listed below makes any German breakthrough far too shallow. 5) Overrun. Boy, is there a problem with overrun. The rules state that in order to execute an overrun you need at least 7-1 odds. The only problem is that the Germans have a hard time overrunning anything with more than 2 defense strength points, and can never overrun a '4'. This means that for the first couple of turns (while there is clear weather) all the Russians need to do to Stop the Panzers, is to form an (Europa-style) overrun-proof line of 4- strength units spaced every third hex. Then, make a similar line two hexes behind the first one. This restricts the Germans to an advance of two hexes per turn, and the Russians have more than enough Infantry divisions on Map N to slow the German advance to a crawl for the opening turns. This will allow them to avoid being surrounded as described below. 6) What with the above, how do you create any sort of pocket around Vyazma? It will take the Russian player just two turns (or at most three) to evacuate all the exposed units to safety east of Vyazma. Historically it took the Germans about five turns to complete the encirclement, and with the overrun problems it will probably take longer in the game. What's to prevent the Russians from just scrambling backwards on turn two? The way I look at it, it's practically impossible to form any sort of pocket of the size that the Germans achieved historically. That's about it. I'm sorry if the tone in the text above is a bit harsh, but I had very high hopes for this game (and I still WANT to be able to enjoy it), but as the game is now it looks to be completey unplayable. Any help or suggestions will be happily accepted. In fact, if there is any sort of errata available, I would like to have a look at that as well. Hoping for a reply, Michael Hende in Stockholm, Sweden ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 229 Sun Sep 24, 1995 D.VOHLERS at 11:17 EDT RHB: Before you head for France, perhaps you can answer a few 3 DoG order of appearance questions. 1. When does Ransom and the US 1 Reg/AR units arrive? With their buddies at 0720 on 7/2? 2. I don't see the following horse arty units mentioned. Do they arrive with the optional units, or are they included for any Low Dutch Road expansion? C/3US B-L/2 US 6 NY 9 MI And the cav supply wagon 3. One other question. When cav mounts, there MA is halved for the phase. What if they mount and are RE? Are they quartered, or just halved? Thanks, Dick ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 230 Sun Sep 24, 1995 W.ARNSDORF [MARTY] at 11:21 EDT Hope Gene doesn't get mad, but I can comment on the overrun rule. At the start of the campaign scenario, Guderian has lots of overrun targets in the south. Your plan to stop the panzers seems to be missing the rule that Soviet units that start in fortified lines or strongpoints are prohibited from moving until turn 4(I believe). This rule also prevents the run away you propose around Vyazma. The supply rules are harsh on the Germans, as they should be. This campaign was poorly planned, as the Germans felt the Russians would simply collapse as sson as the tanks started rolling. I'll let Gene or Vance comment on the other rules q's. Marty ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 231 Sun Sep 24, 1995 J.PETRANOVI1 [Jim P.] at 13:06 EDT Gene, I got the package you sent. Thanks! I sent you a new order by email. Rich, I was not complaining on lack of balance, I was suggesting an alernate to the bidding method on rout (which I don't like), and I was suggesting an admittedly ahistorical campaign series to give reason to play unbalanced games. I was not suggesting you come out with only balanced scenarios or anything. I really like GBoH, though I'm generally more inclined toward operational/ strategic games. Will there be any on the ancient period or on the civil war from you soon? I have toughts on political rating in Civil War strategy games I would like to spout off with, if you are developing such games. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 232 Sun Sep 24, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 18:44 EDT I agree with Marty with regards to Typhoon. Guderian does have intiial overrun targets in the South and should be able to pretty much roam at will. The Vyazma pocket is difficult to accomplish but can still occur, perhaps with less than spectacular results. With regards to the Russian withdrawal down the Smolensk - Moscow motorway (the general direction that is), I have found the Soviets to move very slowly. As the game notes indicate going around Soviet points of resistance has proven to be the best method of bagging the slow moving Russian infantry. The pockets have not been massive but have been formed. I must admit when I first played Typhoon! I was disappointed with the speed of the panzers. However, I had to take into consideration the terrain, the time span of the turn and the size of the Soviet forces in front of the panzers. Once I hit open ground the mobile formations really started to cover some ground. At least until the mud arrived. All in all I really enjoy Typhoon! and the game system. Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 233 Sun Sep 24, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 21:45 EDT to Michael Hende - Sorry, I got behind on things these last few weeks. 1. When to remove Overrun and Interdiction Markers? Include under Segment E. This was mistakenly cut off by the printer during production. 2. Yes, roads negate rivers for movement purposes (see 7.3.8 sentence No.3) at all times; even railroad bridges. The bridge markers are used to aid the crossing of any river hexside not crossed by road; such he;lp is vital when crossing major river hexside. Note that rule 6.1.2 says LOC cannot be traced over major river hexside, but if you place a bridge there, then cyou could trace LOC over that bridge. 3. Roads and roadnet - Yes, only main road or motorway. The minor roads are minor, truly moinor; they are just not capable of sustaining continuous heavy traffic. Even the main roads are not capable but they are better developed. The 3rd Pz Gp. stopped during July because it was at its supply limit. Typhoon! begins where they stopped. 4. Overruns - It is the design intent that a full strength "4" defense Soviet division cannot be overrun, although there is a possible Panzer combination that could do so. It is also the intent that rear area units be ethe victims, such as artillery or HQs standing alone. It is a game- wise intent that very minor units cannot hold up a motorized advance. Regardless, most "overruns" historically meant the shoving aside of the intended victim. Typhoon! shows it as more likely the victim will be pushed aside and disorganized but if that victiom is very weak, he will be eliminated. Note that Typhoon scale is 3 hexes across for every Europa hex. 5. Germans will find much good hunting with your proposed "Europa" solution of Soviet deployment. Against your proposal I suggest that the German player make many attacks, more attacks than can be supplied, the odds will be so so so so good. German casualties will go up to be sure, but the Soviets will disappear. The German player has 43 game-turns in which to win this game. 6. Pockets - You are forgetting that rule 18.4.7 also applies to the Camapign Game. We are suorry if this is not clear. Please call GMT at 800-523-6111 to ask for the latest edition of Typhoon errata. My thanks to Marty and Ken. To everyone else - Work here is well underway on the next game in the series. Any comments? Constructive criticism? Thanks, -- Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 234 Mon Sep 25, 1995 L.PRATT [LRP] at 20:14 EDT What will be the topic of the next game? ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 235 Tue Sep 26, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 20:18 EDT I don't know whether Gene wants to announce the game yet. Regardless, it will include a half map showing November 1941 battles around Rostov and the Donbas. Both sides get to attack. And all ties in with Typhoon. - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 236 Tue Sep 26, 1995 GCOURTER [Grimner] at 21:47 EDT Gene, Just a reminder --- 8th Air Force questions. :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 237 Wed Sep 27, 1995 W.ANDERSON38 at 17:37 EDT What about your Italy and Tunisia games? Are they going to use a similar system to Typhoon!? When are they due out? ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 238 Wed Sep 27, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 23:04 EDT RHB, A 3DoG question. I am confused about Devin and Gamble's deployment along the Belmont Schoolhouse Rid 2524 5888 0317163190d. Some of this is due to the lack of fog-of-war. A rear-guard shooting lots of bullets cannot fool the enemy while a retreat is underway. I imagine most ancient battles ended in some sort of rout anyway. I don't know whether the victors generally did or did not aggressively pursue a routing army with the intent to kill everything standing - perhaps that was not the culture of the times. As for victory conditions, wasn't it Jack Radey who tried to avoid writing them, since he felt it should be obvious to the players whether they had won or lost? It seems to me that the only thing worse than victory conditions is a lack of them. In a game such as GBoH, perhaps a "Pyrrhic victory" should be no victory at all, depending on the victor's losses. Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 219 Thu Sep 21, 1995 K.BOYLAN2 at 20:19 EDT TO: D. Vohlege for the First Day scenario. My confusion arises from comparing the opening moves for Heth and Buford's deployment in the game with some of my historical references. My references give me the impression that Buford's main body deployed alon McPherson's ridge (with some skirmishers on Herr's ridge). As far as I can tell Heth easily pushed the Union skirmishers back and formed a line of battle along the crest of Herr ridge. (One book says Heth reached the crest of Herr ridge at 8:00.) So anyhow my question is why do Devin and Gamble set up on Herr ridge (sort of) and not McPherson's ridge? Also, what is the best detailed account of the battle? All I have to work with right now are the Gettysburg magazines by Morningside House, the West Point Military Atlas 1978 version and Time Life Civil War series. I've neglected my Civil War book collection. Thanks, Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 239 Thu Sep 28, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 01:31 EDT Italy still has some design kinks to work out. Some aspects from Typhoon go to Italy but just about nothing to Tunisia (totally different scale). Tunisia will be so large physically and in numbers of scenarios that it will require lots of time. I have promised that Typhoon forms part of a series so there is some sense of urgency as well as responsibility to keeping the series going. Again, any comments/criticisms on Typhoon? - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 240 Thu Sep 28, 1995 D.STARRY at 03:40 EDT Gene, Thank you very much for the answers to my Operation Mercury questions. I have two more quick ones: 1) Am I correct in assuming that the Allied reinforcements available at Alexandria in the historical campaign game are the British 16th HQ, the commando units and the King's and Queen's battalions? 2) Do allied decoy Task Forces count as TF's for the purposes of Allied naval surface search? Well, having toyed around with scenarios 1 and 4 in order to get a feel for the system, I set up all of the units to prepare for the historical campaign game. The first impression which I received was that, although the German airborne landings are all predetermined, there are still some critical decisions for the German player to make (as should be the case with any good "invasion" game). Not as mind blistering as those presented in, say, for example, Narvik, but still difficult. Should the German player push his naval convoys through immediately, or wait for the Luftwaffe to soften up the Royal Navy? I would like to hear what any other Operation Mercury players feelings are in regards to German strategy concerning his few naval units and how best to deploy the Luftwaffe forces available to him. One observation I wanted to make concerning Operation Mercury in general is in regards to zones of control. I find it curious that an infantry company occupying a 1.5 kilometer hex is able to exert control over the adjacent six hexes. In some cases, such as units on Hill 107 overlooking Maleme airfield, some sort of influence is appropriate, but I was wondering if either Gene or Vance would like to comment on this design decision. Dave Starry. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 241 Thu Sep 28, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:49 EDT I have deployed Buford according to notes I have lying around . . .lord knows where they all came from. Remember, we're starting a bit early in the battle. If you wish to move Buford back to McPherson's, by all means do so. Or you can even start him there! As for sources, just wander into any major bookstore and look at the selections . . . lots of Gettysburg stuff, some of it quite "heavy". ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 242 Thu Sep 28, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 20:21 EDT RHB, Thanks for the reply. I was just curious if you had some source that contradicted what my meager resources indicated. As far as local bookstores, the selection here B.Dalton, Barnes & Noble, etc., has been poor. I even went through all of my catalogs from Articles of War Ltd. and didn't find much of a selection. I've grown accustomed to the bibliograpy provided in some of your other designs hope you include them in future games. Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 243 Fri Sep 29, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 05:44 EDT One of the reasons we did not include one in 3DoG is that it would have been somewhat voluminous and rather repetitive . . . I was just in Barnes & Noble yesterday; they had about half-dozen Gburg books. All of recent vintage, to be sure, but, then again, I'm not sure what level of source you;'re looking for. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 244 Fri Sep 29, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 19:35 EDT to answer Dave Starry's questions - 1. All Allied reinforcements you mention start at Alexandria. 2. Search by Decoy TFs - I don't think they can, see 18.22; please ask Gene to comment on this question. ZOC Theory - In short, those units with ZOC are capable of conducting patrols; those without ZOC never did patrol. To a minor extent ZOC also represents ability to cover ground with small arms fire and the range of a light mortar is a factor here. Keep in mind that the hex a unit occupies is only that unit's approximate position or, better, its center of gravity. - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 245 Fri Sep 29, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 19:54 EDT Anybody who's at all interested in Gettysburg should start with The Gettysburg Campaign by Edwin B. Coddington. I picked mine up last winter in an otherwise pretty pathetic Waldenbooks, which had some other titles on the battle. Also, a year ago the bookstore at the battlefield was selling the Bachelder maps. There's one for each day, with some excellent detail not just on terrain, but on unit deployments. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 246 Fri Sep 29, 1995 MARK.HERMAN at 20:20 EDT I agree that Coddington is the definitive source on the battle, but for those who want a accurate, but less dense read I also suggest "High Tide at Gettysburg" by Tucker. Mark ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 247 Fri Sep 29, 1995 MARK.HERMAN at 21:19 EDT It has come to my attention that after 3DoG numbed Gene's mind and melted down his constitution he made an error in which file he could use for Diadochoi.The smart money will bet that he got the wrong one. Consequently, the published version of Diadochoi has all of the mistakes prior to the final version, the scenario most effected is Gaza. I have uploaded that missing file as an ASCII file (for all you DOS folks) into the war game library under file #10140. Sorry for the problem. We'll get a printed version out in the near future and into C3i. Mark Herman ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 248 Fri Sep 29, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 23:06 EDT I saw Coddington's book at Waldens tonight. Sounds like it may be a good source. I'll check into "High Tide" also. Thanks for the info, Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 249 Sat Sep 30, 1995 M.HENDE [Mike] at 07:45 EDT Ken and Marty, The problem I had was in the rather narrow attack frontages of the two northern Panzer Groups. There this so-called 'Europa' tactic works rather well to slow the Germans down for the first five turns or so. I agree that Guderians advance is much harder to contain. I will give this game another shot in a few weeks. Thanks, Guys! ------------ Vance, Thanks for replying. I have just a few observations on what you wrote; First, the fact that 18.4.7 applies to the Campaign game makes quite a bit of difference. We had missed that. Rule 19.2.6a only refers to 18.4.6 not 18.4.7. I now assume that this reference should be to both .6 and .7. Second, I know that the 'Europa' solution will cost the Russians, but they don't need to use this tactic all over the map for the entire game. It would work best to slow down Panzer Groups 3&4 for the first couple of turns until the mud hits. The attack frontages of the two groups are not more than 10 hexes each. That can be covered by two lines of four divisions each. After the mud hits they can go back to a more 'normal' defense, since any breakthrough the Germans achieve will be VERY narrow due to terrain effects. Also, is the movement chart correct in showing the German motorized units as having only HALF movement factors during the motorized movement phase? This limits the opportunities for overruns after any successful attacks during the combat phase. Or is this in the errata? Thanks for taking the time to answer. I like this game, I really do. It's just that during our first game it sort of broke down into this Verdun-like slow crawl because me and my opponent discovered this 'Europa' tactic. I'll write to Gene, requesting the latest errata this week, and then we will try it again. Regards, Michael Hende ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 250 Sat Sep 30, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 08:23 EDT Dave, Vance is right (hmm, haven't said that in a while ), Decoy TF's cant search. Mark, Send me the corrections when you get a chance. I'll fix it. Anyone who is interested in being involved in the 2nd edition update for the Battles of Waterloo, please contact me via e-mail. We're beginning work, and need some testers. Previous experience with the 1st edition IS required. Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 251 Sat Sep 30, 1995 D.MCHENRY3 [Mac] at 08:50 EDT Is there a complete list of 3DoG errata around? If someone could drop me a line I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks. Davin McHenry ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 252 Sun Oct 01, 1995 J.PETRANOVI1 [Jim P.] at 20:35 EDT Is there a revised Phalanx rout rule for SPQR et al? If so, what is it? ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 253 Mon Oct 02, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 00:15 EDT Who was that masked designer? Was it Herman? Naa, couldn't be. :) Jim, There is a new phalanx rout rule being tested, but it's not official. If you want to help test it out, I suggest you ask Bergus Maximus to email you a copy. Ciao, Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 254 Mon Oct 02, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 01:19 EDT Michael - 1. Yes, rule 19.2.6a should include reference to 18.4.7; thanks for catching this. 2. Axis Motor. MA is Half; as shown on chart. 3. Europa Solution - We saw a little of this during playtesting but saw no cause for alarm. The Germans will get at least some Dry during Mud season, Frost follows, and there are 43 game-turns. If you feel Panzer movement is too congested, send some motorized units to help Guderian. A number of times we diverted SSReich and one of the Panzers to attack towards Bryansk. They later returned to the north. Glad you are thinking about the game and strategy. Thanks for the comments. - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 255 Mon Oct 02, 1995 W.GRAY7 [Wilbur Gray] at 18:57 EDT Just for everyone's info, Dr Luvaas at the Army War College also recommends Coddington as the best source on Gettysburg. However, I'll also plug the College's own guide book on the battle, if for no other reason than the many first person accounts contained therein. Very interesting to see what the participants thought was going on (whether, in fact, it was or not). Concerning Buford's deployment, I've given in excess of 30 Army Staff Rides of the place for the War College and I also have Gamble and Devins' troopers along McPherson's Ridge. I have the skirmishers in the underbrush of a little creek at the base of Herr's Ridge (I think it was Willoughby Run - I'm doin this from memory folks, so if I got these names right ......... yea, I really gotta get a life). Hope this helps. Bill Gray ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 256 Mon Oct 02, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 19:17 EDT Coddington is a great start, so is Tucker (if only he's more fun to read.) The Gettysburg magazines are outstanding, for the most part. Certainly the battle narratives are excellent. For Second day stuff, try either of Pfanz's books. Oh, Martin's book on the first day is new, and quite good (better than his previous stuff, I think) and there is a new book simply addressing the morning of the first day - called _Willoghby Run_, or something like that. For what it's worth - Gamble encamped on 30 June at the seminary, with his picket line extended quite a ways to Herr Ridge (I think he advanced those pickets out to Schoolhouse only in the AM. not sure) Devin camped East of Mummasburg Rd just north of PA College. His picket line extended from almost Chambersburg Pike east to Rock Creek. In Thunder, I put Devin further east than his main camp, more on the center of Gravity of his picket line. By then I suspect he was really in motion towards Macpherson's Ridge, but I wanted to recreate the need for the US to get initiative and retrieve that extra brigade. Of course, the details of this are subject to debate, and really are hardly that important in the context of the game. The player will soon sieze his own fate anyway, and no unit is so out of position so as to be irretreivable. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 257 Mon Oct 02, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 23:19 EDT Bill, Dave, Thanks for the Gettysburg info! Appreciate it, Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 258 Tue Oct 03, 1995 A.LEWIS16 [Marmaduke] at 06:07 EDT Gene, Here are some 8AF questions, I think some may be the same as Grinner asked. What happened to the abort rules? RE: Disengagement Table Voluntary and Fuel disengagement both adjust in the same direction and by the same amount. What should they be? Is the speed/thrust adjustment supposed to mean just jets or do bombers get this adjustment as well? Can loose formation modifiers, singly or cumulative (by randon draws), reduce bomber hand sizes below their turret defense rating. I had a game with an ace crew that had EA/TD and my opponenet chose a loose formation option and had a random draw on another option give him a second loose formation result. How would this be applied? Thanks, Andy ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 259 Tue Oct 03, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:17 EDT Anyone who wants to try out the new PH Rout Rule - and the experimental Elephant rule - can ask me to send them the Diadochoi errata, noting that those two rules apply to any game in the system. I put Buford's boys a bit to the west . . if I remember my thought process correctly . . .because there was some evidence he had units that far forward (probably detachments, to be sure), but because it seemed as if the gamer was going to move up anyway, because of the large amount of room and time that Heth had to deploy. As I said before ,if you feel you have to start em back east, feel free. Had a great playtest of the Okehazama battle in SAMURAI last weekend (as we prepare for publciation). Lots of burning castles, attempts to get out, individual fightsd with awhole bunch of severed heads (and several losses of face . . . but no seppuke, alas) and a great "surprise" attack by Oda's troops right after a thunderstorm against Imagawa's boys (loaded with sake) driving them off the board, even tho outnumbered 6-1!! Big discussion about whether the thuderstorm would have extinguished the burning castles and forts. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 260 Tue Oct 03, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 19:33 EDT Rich, That SAMURAI game description may be the most evocative thing I've read this week... Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 261 Tue Oct 03, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 19:57 EDT I just downloaded the Diadochi errata from AOL. First of all, thanks to Mark Herman for uploading it. That's definitely the last pleasant thing I have to say. First, the file is in some sort of Mac format that is rendered as an endless data dump on Windows 95 Notepad and Wordpad. It's totally unrecognizable to WordPerfect 5.1. It's taking a lot of work to edit to format the material in Wordpad. In fact, it's going to take many hours to put this into a useable form. This should have been made available in a readily useable form for PC users, without dumping the burden of layout on the customer. That brings me to a second point. It is virtually the entire module. What, exactly, was done right? I have never seen such a disgraceful job of getting a game wrong on GMT's part. Maybe it was the mad rush to get Diadochi out before the magic date that would drop the price to $5.00. Maybe it was an honest mistake. Whatever, the end result is disaster. If GMT had screwed up Britain Stands Alone this badly, I think I would have killed myself out of shame. From a customer's standpoint, this is at least as bad as the crap that FGA used to foist on us. Having upwards of twenty pages of errata for a four-scenario module is appalling. Forcing the poor customer to spend hour after hour fixing the errata is unbelievable. Right now, I'm so disgusted with GMT and Diadochi that I'm ready to toss both Diadochi and the errata. Never have I had such a feeling from a GMT product that I was ripped off so badly. Nor did I ever expect to do so. What we need is a second edition rulebook, provided at a token price. Barring that, errata that we PC users can readily print and use. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 262 Tue Oct 03, 1995 M.SZARKA [Mike] at 20:53 EDT JPW, did you miss where they explained the accident? Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 263 Tue Oct 03, 1995 J.STORMES1 [James] at 22:03 EDT Yes, they explained the problem with the Diadochoi rules, but that doesn't excuse it. FGA claimed to have made the same error with Operation Crusader. I think that GMT should reprint and replace the rules booklet; the volume of errata makes the existing booklet unusable. James ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 264 Tue Oct 03, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 22:11 EDT Yep, I saw it. I still think that it was a bad one, and the remedy could have been a better one. A second edition rulebook should be in the works, or at least redoing the scenarios in the next C3i. For now, I would have prefered an errata file that didn't require an hour and a half of layout work on my part. I know Richard and Mark busted their butts to make this a good game, and take care of the problems. Yet I'm extremely frustrated by the whole issue. Also, an explanation of how something happened is a start, but it doesn't make everything cool. Also, I still think that this is symptomatic of the new tendency to rush things out into print. We can put the Diodochi setup next to the Typhoon charts and 3-DOG map. Look, I've designed, and I've developed, and I publish a newsletter, Line of Departure. So I know a little of which I speak. In addition, I've made mistakes and oversights of my own. Nobody's perfect, and there's a reason why they put pencils on the ends of erasers. But this is a HUGE mistake. I can guarrantee this. GMT has a earned a fine reputation for quality, and for getting things right; it's one reason why this sticks out like charcoal in a snow bank. But if this becames any more common, and such miscues as those in Typhoon, 3-DOG and Diodochi become acceptable, we can watch the company fall into ruins. Bottom line-----Get it right in the first place; if that doesn't happen, fix it quickly, and without undo burden to the customer. That kind of thinking has served GMT well in the past, as in reprinting the entire NKPA army for Korea 1995 in C3i. Diodochi must not become anything more than an aberration, and under no conditions should we be expected to accept it. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 265 Tue Oct 03, 1995 J.PETRANOVI1 [Jim P.] at 23:06 EDT Rich, please send me Diadochhi erratta. If it is in a file, please make it pc readable. (I'm scared now!) If things are as bad as said above, I would be happy enough if GMT posts an updated rulebook in text format here. BTW, I've always thought that an internet home page would be a great way to distribute erratta, by keeping updated rule "books" on line. Wouldn't take much space, probably would help sales a little. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 266 Wed Oct 04, 1995 R.DUMKE [Russ] at 00:39 EDT Rich, Please send me the Diadochoi errata too! Thanks, Russ ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 267 Wed Oct 04, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 08:00 EDT Actually, this is a question of perception more than reality. Mark did NOT upload the Diadochoi errata . . he uploaded the file for the entire rules in their supposedly final form. The actual Diadochoi errata, complete with the experimental PH Rout and Elephant rules - which are not corrections but just some design thinking - are less than one page. I'm sorry that Jim W's system went into DiceCon-4, but the reaction was a bit stiff, eh wot. Rather interestingly, we have received almost no errata-type questions concerning Diadochoi (which probably says as much for the gamer as it does for the game). Even more importantly, except for the omission of Ptolemy's PHs at Gaza (nice hole, there), none of the errata was crucial to play, or undiscernable (if you really thought Tlepolamus set up stacked with an enemy unit, you probably can be convinced to purchase my old Pet Rock collection). What I will do is e-mail the actual errata file to the three of you who recently chimed in, and see what your reaction is thereunto. Let me know . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 268 Wed Oct 04, 1995 R.EICHENLAUB [Dick] at 08:24 EDT I recently saw a note here that Typhoon! errata was available by calling the 800 number. When I did, though, a nice lady said there was none "in the folder". Is there Typhoon! errata? Can it be uploaded here? Thanks in advance, -Dick- ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 269 Wed Oct 04, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 09:54 EDT Dick, I'll e-mail you the Typhoon errata. Regarding Diadochoi, Richard is right. I'm not sure why, but Mark uploaded the entire rulebook file to CONSIM-L. And he did it from a Mac using Word, so I'm not too surprised that a PC choked on it. The actual errata is actually small, but very important (especially for Gaza). Richard, if you'll send me the latest errata file, I'll format it so both Mac and IBM users can read it. Jim, I can understand being upset by all the computer problems with the file. But FGA? C'mon. How about at least giving us a chance to fix things before you completely dump on us? Sure , a 2nd ed rulebook is a possibility, but, hey, I just found out about this last week! I'm gonna need a little time to evaluate that one and schedule it in with the next books that we print.I can assure you, and I believe we've proven this in the past (with maps, counters and rules when we made a mistake) that we're not going to leave a problem unfixed. But how about cutting us a little slack and at least ASKING us the true nature of the problem and what we're going to do before you make assumption, scare everyone on the board about how BAD this game must be, and take Grand Battery fire at us? I don't really understand, Jim. A couple weeks ago you were comparing us to 3W, now it's FGA. I believe either comparison is ludicrous, but you certainly got my attention. Hey, I used the wrong file on Diadochoi. Big mistake, yes. Caused by haste, yes. Purposely undeveloped game? No. Intended to ripoff the customer? Big NO. I like and respect you, Jim. But I don't understand the volley fire. Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 270 Wed Oct 04, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 11:41 EDT Gene, It's quite a bit of a shock to download errata and find that it's seventeen pages long, when the rulebook was only twelve. It definitely gave the impression that whole game was screwed three ways to Sunday, and was readily perceivable as an authoritative indication of very serious and widespread problems. If you and Mark and Richard were personally offended, I apologize. As I noted in the second post, you've been very good at correcting smaller errors than this in a big way, as in Korea 1995. As for the errata, I'd really prefer to have the new file, to compare it with the old setups. Sign me up for them, and I'll even put them in the next Line of Departure. My general response would have been much different if I'd downloaded one page of immediately useable errata instead of seventeen! There definitely would not have been any volley fire, main battery salvo, or saturation bombing. However, I still feel that there is undo haste not in condemning GMT, but in hurrying stuff into print. You'd be shocked if you heard what people not on GEnie, or only lurking, have told me. Haste is at the core of the issue. My perceptions are rather mild compared to theirs. I had one gamer tell me that on the basis of the 3-DOG map and Diodochi problems, he'd never buy a GMT game again. Others are equally upset, and appear ready to take the same step. Please remember too, these are loyal customers from the days when you were first starting out, in fact some of the most loyal of all. Gene, what you have is a potentially disastrous crisis in perception. When I've criticized things in the past, it was always trying to be construct=t"RD+k,Y6ieve it or not, is no exception. Please, for your sake, go back to taking the time to do what you do best. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 271 Wed Oct 04, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 20:03 EDT Rich or Gene - Please E-mail me the DiadBo1x erRctX Thanks . . . A 3DoG query, foqae a concern. Units that reaction move when an enemy unit moves up to a flank make an UDD to see if it disorders. What happens if it's already disordered? Secondly, I'm a bit vague on reaction fire. Am I to understand that a non- disordered unit can reaction fire ANY number of times during enemy activation as long as it fits the four criteria? This seems like a lot of fire opportunity, even for 20-minute turns. It also seems very difficult in this game to coordinate a divisional attack, when all units from a single brigade move, fire and shock before any others can. Am I reading this right? Please advise . . . -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 272 Wed Oct 04, 1995 D.VOHLERS at 22:08 EDT Richard: A request and a question: 1. Please put me on the "Diadochoi Digest" list. 2. In 3DoG, if a unit uses Withdrawal Movement and enters a hex that would normally cost more than 1 MP, does that increase the fatigue level of the unit's brigade? Thanks, Dick ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 283 Fri Oct 06, 1995 A.LEWIS16 [Marmaduke] at 06:53 EDT A Deluxe Al question - In breakthrough part of shock, I have one defending unit with 3 cohesion hits and two attackers with 1 and 2 cohesion hits respectively. Does the defender suffer the 2 additional hits for breakthrough since he is 3:1 higher than one attacker or does it need to be 3:1 over all attackers? Please include me in the Diadochoi errate list. Thanks, Andy ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 284 Fri Oct 06, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:41 EDT Andy . . . has to be 3-1 better than each unit he faces, so in this case, no breakthru . . . . I'm a bit curious as to why your friend (Jim W) was so wacked out about the uncut map . . . saying he didn't want to spoil it by cutting it. Our mistake was we didn't cut it !! (one of those classic blunders; each party assuming the others had covered that aspect) . . .if we had done the job "right", it would have arrived just as the errata tells you to do. By the way, one of the stores in Gettysburg NatPark that carries 3DoG also sells the maps separately; they appear to move well. (So I've been told.) As all you folk get your Diadochoi errata, we'd like to hear back on the new PH Rout rule . . .and the experimental EL command rule. (Sal, I adjustd the former as per your suggestion . . . ) RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 285 Fri Oct 06, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 08:46 EDT Steve, It's guys like you that make this hobby fun for me. Thanks. Phil, The only piece of errata for Silver Bayonet is that we left out some clear hexes around the tea plantation. The following hexes are clear terrain: 3211,3212,3309,3311,3312,3313,3410,3411,3412,and 3511. There is also some Q & A for SB in our two old issues of INSIDE GMT. If you'd like them, send me your snail mail address, and I'll send them out. Also, issue #5 of C3i had a good article on strategy for the various scenarios. I love SB, and I really like doing operational Vietnam games (the topic fascinates me, and there's been precious little done in our hobby to do the war justice). Trouble is, the topic itself is a tough sell, and with distributors ordering less, it's becoming more important than ever that we be very careful about our topic mix. Personally, I've been working on a game that covers the war in I Corps during the 1972 Easter offensive. It's pretty fun- lots of NVA armor, a handful of US marines, ARVN forces, some of whom are completely unfreliable, while others fight to the last man, and MASSIVE US Air Support. As much fun as we have with it here, who knows if it'll ever see the light of day. We'll feedback it in the mag, and if there's ever enough interest, we'll do it. BTW, regarding the 8AF questions, ROdger told me yesterday that Dan's "working on them" as well as an official errata sheet. I'm not sure how long this will take, but Rodger reminded him again yesterday about it, so I hope to see it soon. Sal, When you get a chance, please give me a call at (800)523-6111. Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 286 Fri Oct 06, 1995 O.SOGARD [SOGARD] at 15:13 EDT Richard, Please include me in on the Diadochoi errata. SOGARD ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 287 Fri Oct 06, 1995 J.STORMES1 [James] at 19:07 EDT I regret that I jumped to the conclusion that DIADOCHOI was so seriously flawed as to require a reprint of the corrected rules booklet. Previous messages led me to believe that the errata were more extensive than they were. Thanks, Richard, for sending the errata to me. I also want to retract any suggestion of a comparison between GMT and FGA. The former is, in my opinion, one of the two or three leaders in the hobby, both in terms of creativity and quality. The latter was an abomination. In addition to the volume of errata, I think that how it is disseminated is a crucial factor. Timely delivery of complete errata to the purchaser should take place with as little demand on the purchaser as possible. GMT has a good track record in this regard, having sent errata sheets upon request, and published some errata in C3i. However, I like The Gamer's method better. Because they publish all errata in OPERATIONS, and because OPERATIONS is published regularly on a quarterly schedule, I can be sure that I have complete and relatively up-to-date errata for any of their games. Given that I buy more games than I have time to play, it may be several weeks, months, or years before I play game for the first time. But when I am ready to play it, I want to have any post-publication errata immediately at hand. I don't want to have to ask for it on a game-by-game basis. The publisher may no longer be in business, the game and its errata sheets may be out-of-print, etc. I am willing to pay for this support, in the form of a magazine subscription, second edition components, or whatever. I just want to be sure that I have the latest and greatest when I sit down to play the game. James ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 288 Fri Oct 06, 1995 J.DUNNAM1 [JRD] at 19:33 EDT Please put me on the list as well. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 289 Fri Oct 06, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner] at 19:48 EDT > Steve, It's guys like you that make this hobby fun for me. Thanks. Gene, it's guys like Steve who are supposed to make the hobby fun for me - but he's never available to game against (jab jab ;) RE: 8th AF stuff - I'm glad that Dan's working on an errata. It does look like some stuff got lost between RotL and 8AF. BTW, what's with the Finnish planes in the Winter War 1939-40 module from C3i # 5? These are the only aircraft in the entire system with Swastikas, and as far as I know the Fins weren't really ever Nazis, much less at this time. :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 290 Fri Oct 06, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 20:01 EDT Richard, I wasn't "whacked out" about the map needing to be cut. It was just an area with which I had a disagreement. I like just being able to stick two maps together, without mutilating one. Gene, Take my feedback now on the I Corps Vietnam game, and write down 8. Everybody, I know the Diadochi thing was all my fault. Can we move on? Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 291 Fri Oct 06, 1995 M.SZARKA [Mike] at 20:31 EDT Gene, I personally find Vietnam fascinating as a game topic, but one problem is that most such games usually require a good deal of hidden movement and so on, making life difficult for those of us who are opponent-impaired. Sad as it may be, there are all too many of us who do a lot of our gaming solo - my only ready opponent always wants to play Europa, and most of those games take way too long to play for my lifestyle. :( (Any gamers in Toronto want to do some ftf?) Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 292 Fri Oct 06, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 23:17 EDT Please add me to the Diadochi list. Thanks, Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 293 Sat Oct 07, 1995 T.OLSON4 at 00:10 EDT Since there appears to still be a Diodochi list. Please add me to i t. Thanks ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 294 Sat Oct 07, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 03:31 EDT Yes that I COrps game sounds very interesting. Is the rating 1-10 with 10 being the best rating in your scale? If so I'll vote 9 then. ANy ARVN vs NVA battle should be a good topic. Perhaps using some sort of Raid on St Nazaire system or Solo ASL system. I haven't played much of those two games but it seems to me that hidden movement and VC surprises should be pretty easy. I still don't know if Khe Sanh is still doable. I mean if GDW did Dien Bien Phu, I figure why not do Khe Sanh. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 295 Sat Oct 07, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:31 EDT Jim . . . the point I was naking (endlessly, it seems) is that you seem to feel that, when YOUhave to cut the mnapedge it is Mutilation; when it is done at the printer it is OK. Same result, different effect. Unless your steadiness of hand is a factor here. Tell ya what. You want the\ map cut professionally? Send me your copy, I'll have it done by a pro who is truly on the cutting edge . . . .Hey Alex, has the dog finished eating yet?! . . .'scuse me, I was just checking to see if our staff was in. I'll even pay the postage to send it back . . . "He's not? well what about the cat?! . . . . Again, pardon the interruption. So, Jim, let me know if that offer is acceptable. The rest of youze just get Diadochoi errata . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 296 Sat Oct 07, 1995 M.SZARKA [Mike] at 09:20 EDT I forgot to mention, whether it was here or on another topic that the issue was first raised, that a game on Khe Sanh does exist; it was published in the Wargamer, and was designed by Perry Moore. I have it, but have never played it. Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 297 Sat Oct 07, 1995 R.EICHENLAUB [Dick] at 10:10 EDT Back when I got SB (when it was first published) I thought it was a pretty good simulation of Operational level combat in Vietnam. A little difficult to get the full effect of the system solitaire, but workable. I've always thought it could be adapted to many other operations in Vietnam. There were battles around Pleiku, the battle of Hamburger Hill (from initial contact through the cleanup), Khe San, especially Pegasus (the relief), the border battles with the Marines (like Buffalo, etc.). One area where wargames have historically done a useful service is portraying the lesser known incidents for study. If the only stuff that "moves" depicts well-known situations, there tends to be duplication about some topics and others are left un-simulated. Vietnam has been only partially covered and typically the battles dealt with are the best known. Here is an opportunity to cover, and teach to the gamer, some of the lesser operations of the war. I like to study that conflict and will generally buy any game on the subject (especially from a reputable company). -Dick- ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 298 Sat Oct 07, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 16:01 EDT I know that Khe Sanh was published but isn't the Wargamer out of print? I haven't seen an issue for quite some time. How does that game play or does it warrant another game on the subject? I personally want to see operations by the ROK Marines. Not much has been published on the South Korean troops in Vietnam. Anyway, Thanks for the Errata Gene. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 299 Sat Oct 07, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 17:09 EDT Richard, Thanks for the offer, but I don't think it'll be necesary. I have complete faith in the ability of hhhaandss to stayy stedy. Jim@(#@*%^ ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 300 Sat Oct 07, 1995 C.PERLEBERG [Chris P.] at 18:39 EDT A list! A list! Hey, put me on it! (I don't actually own Dio-Ducky yet, but I have it on order!) Chris P. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 301 Sat Oct 07, 1995 M.SZARKA [Mike] at 19:39 EDT Cat, yes, the Wargamer is out of print, but I think that particular issue can be found for a reasonable price, particulary ziplocked without the magazine. Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 302 Sat Oct 07, 1995 P.PERLA at 20:15 EDT Well, if there is a DioDockers errata list, how can I avoid asking to be on it? I can't. Please add me , Richard. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 303 Sat Oct 07, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 20:30 EDT Richard or Gene: A 3DoG map question: Looking at the campaign scenario (15.6), I noticed that Reynolds and Wadsworth set up in hex C4242. Problem: Map C has no hex 4242. I solved this by counting 8 hexes down (west) from hex B4234 (which is C4209). Is that correct? Thanks for the assist. Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 304 Sat Oct 07, 1995 A.MILLER38 [EricTheRed#2] at 22:05 EDT TO ALL WARGAMERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please see Catgory 3, Topic 1 for a survey on your tastes and desires. C'mon, let us know what YOU want ...... Eric the Red (II) announ.txt ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 305 Sun Oct 08, 1995 MIH.SUPPORT [Ulrich] at 06:15 EDT Richard: Thank you for e-mailing me the Diadochi errata! Phil: In which magazine did you see my photo, I haven't seen it. Well, I think I look a lot different from Dafoe but what do I know? Richard insists that I'm the guy in the center of the cover from New England's Napoleon at Dresden game (scary thought) but I _know_ that Richard poses as a Klingon on one of the Star Trek: Next Generation cards... ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 306 Sun Oct 08, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 08:41 EDT mark, whatever you've been drinking, it's time to change brands . . . something a bit smoother, more mellow, and one that allows your eyes to function. Hex C4242 is the Rhodes house. It's right next to C4241 . . . and C4243. (And you folks wonder why we just love to answer errata questions . . . .) There is also little doubt in anyone;s mind that that IS Uli the Blenne Man leading the Prussian charge on the boxcover of NES's just-released Dresden. And my visual guest appearances in the industry games have been limited to the Blackbeard box (ask Jack Dott) . . .and a few Zenda-like stand-ins for Rob Reiner . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 307 Sun Oct 08, 1995 A.MILLER38 [EricTheRed#2] at 11:19 EDT My apologies to all individuals concerned: The survey referred to in earlier posts by me can be found in Cat _4_; Topic 1. Thank you, Eric The Red (II) ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 308 Sun Oct 08, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 12:55 EDT Richard, I'll never take the generic cough syrup again.....just a little mixup with which is map C and which is map B. Moral of the story; when there's a stupid mistake in a scenario setup, always first assume that its YOU that made it. Sorry for the waste of time. Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 309 Sun Oct 08, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 20:16 EDT Richard, Thanks for the Diadochi errata! Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 310 Sun Oct 08, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 23:46 EDT Uli - I saw in the latest OPERATIONS mag from THE GAMERS hocking some games with John Kranz. Anyway, you sure look like DaFoe. I hope you're not as crazy as he is I have "Flight of the Intruder" which I think is a pretty neat movie and if you haven't seen it...you should. DaFoe is pretty crazy in that one. It's about the A-6 Intruder bombers during Vietnam ala some Hollywood speeches and stuff. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 311 Mon Oct 09, 1995 MIH.SUPPORT [Ulrich] at 14:42 EDT Grinner: Finnish planes and swastikas - The RotL module is correct, Finland indeed used swastikas as their national marking during the Winter War (Latvia used a swastika till 1940 as well). During WWII Finland changed the marking by the way. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 312 Mon Oct 09, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner] at 19:58 EDT Uli, Thanks for the information. I wouldn't have ever guessed that. Interesting... :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 313 Tue Oct 10, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 01:51 EDT Grinner - In case you didn't know, many other nations/cultures have used a form of the swastika one way or another thousands of years ago. I was shocked to see ancient buddhas in China have the inverted swastikas in some old national geophraphic magazines. I assume most people know that the Himmler and his SS had used or "borrowed" runes to suite their needs from other sources. I doubt that the Finns used the swastika as a symbol of racism and ultra nationalism, but then again..... ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 314 Tue Oct 10, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner] at 18:27 EDT Cat, Yep, I knew that the swastika wasn't invented by Nazi Germany, but don't know much else about it's use. Having 2 closely located nations, who I don't think were all that closely alligned in history or politics (showing my ignorance here) using the same symbol seems like too much of a coincidence. I suppose this is the kind of thing that sparks one to research... :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 315 Tue Oct 10, 1995 P.KELLER3 [Pete] at 20:19 EDT DaFoe is not pretty crazy, he is a certifiable WACKO!!!!! Pete ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 316 Tue Oct 10, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 22:18 EDT The swastika appears on Korean temples and, I've been told, was held sacred by some plains Indian tribes. If it's not the oldest and most widely distributed sacred symbol, it's pretty close. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 317 Wed Oct 11, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:15 EDT I remember that Tsar Nicholas 's daughters used it as a symbol on much of their family correspondence . . .or am I confusing that with something else Trivia Overload!!!!! Aaaaaakkkk!!! RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 318 Wed Oct 11, 1995 P.PERLA at 20:32 EDT Hey, Gene, please tell Rodger that I sent him the WWII article he wanted. It's on his Genie e-mail. I sent it Sunday, and have not heard from him. Because I don't know how often he checks his e-mail I just thought a heads-up might be in order. Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 319 Wed Oct 11, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 22:06 EDT Gene, I was away for awhile and just caught up with the messages the other day. I called, but you weren't in. Do you still want me to call? Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 320 Wed Oct 11, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 22:19 EDT Gene, I sent Rodger my WWII article as well, and something else with it Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 321 Thu Oct 12, 1995 J.CRIDER1 [JARREL] at 00:28 EDT My old high school, built in 1928 in Wichita Kansas, has ornamental swastikas engraved in the mortar around the edges of the masonry. As this was before the world was aware of Hitler, the Plains Indians connection probably explains their presence. I was surprised the first time I noticed them. I know of the swastika's use for many centuries prior to the Nazis but I wonder if anyone has complained about their presence on a public school building. Jarrel Crider Wichita North HS '81 ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 322 Thu Oct 12, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 11:18 EDT Jim and Peter, Rodger doesn't check his GEnie mail very often, usually not unless I tell him something's coming to him. It would help if you could cc: me on all the article files. Then I'll make sure he downloads them. Sal, Yes, I still need to speak with you. E-mail me your phone # and I'll save you the nickel. All, We're assembling the team for a new game on future conflict in Korea. It w will be based on CK '95, with lots of updates and new development. I need two things: 1) Volunteers to help collect errata from CK '95, help with OOB updates, and/or be a tester for the product. 2) Some brave soul who's willing to coordinate the above on-line and work together with Tony Curtis as co- developer on the project. Tony's not on- line, which will really slow us down, so we need someone to work with him on this one. BTW, we're hoping to create this game in such a way that there will be an upgrade kit for current CK '95 owners. Volunteers please e-mail me. Thanks! Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 323 Thu Oct 12, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner] at 18:11 EDT Jarrel, Are those swastikas in the high school at an angle or straight up and down? There are at least 4 basic swatika styles. Right to left, Right to left canted at 45 degrees and the same except from left to right. Most of those who lived through the war have an inburned hatred of that symbol. I picked this up from my Father and now feel slightly sick to my stomach when I see people using it as an armband or patch or other method of personal adornment. An intresting study in social psychology I guess. :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 324 Fri Oct 13, 1995 M.REED31 [Mike] at 03:03 EDT Another interesting anecdote concerning the use of the swastika outside of Nazi Germany was the case of the U.S. 45th Infantry Division. This unit, which was comprised of parts of the Oklahoma, Colorado, and Arizona National Guards (perhaps even New Mexico, too), had a strong American Indian heritage. Their shoulder patch was a gold swastika on a red background. Needless to say, when WWII broke out, it would have been "bad form" to retain this, as well as possible mistaken identity, so the swastika was replaced with a thunderbird. Thus was the origin of the "Thunderbird Division's" new insignia, which they proudly carried ashore at Gela, Salerno, Anzio, and Southern France. Only fittingly, they were the force that "liberated" Nuremberg, probably the biggest hotbed of nazism in Germany. We now return you to your local programming.....:) ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 325 Fri Oct 13, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 18:04 EDT The T-Birds are reputed to have an excellent Divisional History Museum in OK City, BTW. Well worth the trip, I'm told. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 326 Sat Oct 14, 1995 M.REED31 [Mike] at 00:44 EDT Dave, Actually, that's how I found out about the T-Birds. Back in February I was driving to Kansas City from Los Angeles to relocate for my new job. As I was rounding Oklahoma City, heading north on I-35 off of I-40, I chanced to spy a sign for the 45th Inf Div museum, and since I was alone, I decided to drop in and check it out. Unfortunately, they were in the process of closing up for the night, but since I asked whether their book/gift shop was open, they let me in. I had a nice chat with a few veterans (always an educational experience), and even picked up a couple of reprints of their official histories. Even got to meet the head maintenance man, who as it turns out was their CG when the unit was in the Korean War! I highly recommend this side trip to anyone passing by OK City. What I could see of the museum looked quite exciting, and there were even some vintage AFVs outside around the parking lot! I wonder what other hidden gems like this are around the country? Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 327 Sat Oct 14, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 08:44 EDT Mike, As for hidden Gems, if you're ever in Chicago, take a side trip out to Wheaton IL and visit the 1st Division Museum at Catigny Park. It is on the Grounds of the McCormick (Owner of the Chi Tribune) estate. Mac served in the Division as an Arty Bn commander in WWI, and never got over the experience. The Museum has a number of AFVs, large Dioramas (one where you can walk along Omaha Beach...) and good displays. It does not have much by way of a gift shop, but it does have a research library that I have used in the past to great effect. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 328 Sat Oct 14, 1995 C.PERLEBERG [Chris P.] at 17:01 EDT Well, we've been down this road before, but this summer I went to the 1st Division Museum at Catigny, and I want to say it was very impressive. Steeping off the "landing craft" onto the Omaha Beach diarama was an extremely eerie experince. Well worth a trip. Chris P. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 329 Sat Oct 14, 1995 P.VANWOOTTEN [Peter] at 17:50 EDT Please put me on the Diadochi errata list. Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 330 Sat Oct 14, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 21:14 EDT Also, go take a look at the Patton Museum at Ft. Knox ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 331 Sat Oct 14, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 21:30 EDT I saw the Patton Museum in the mid-seventies, when it was still under construction. It has the most incredible selection of armor imaginable. Unfortunately, however, the jerks at Fotohooch, where I took my film,lost it. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 332 Sun Oct 15, 1995 K.THURSTON [Ken] at 18:05 EDT It's been 20 years since I've been to the 1st Division Museum. I don't remember the diarama though. Sounds like I missed the best part! Ken ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 333 Sun Oct 15, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 19:43 EDT Ken, The 1st Div Museum has been moved to a brand new building, much bigger than before, and with better displays and dioramas. Primo all the way. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 334 Sun Oct 15, 1995 J.KELLY73 at 20:09 EDT Rich and Gene, How about a Great Battles of History quad covering the Seven Years War. The only other grand tactical game on the subject, Clash of Arms "Battles of the Age of Reason", is so complicated that it is virtually unplayable. A swift clean Great Battles of History quad would blow it away. And as an extra bonus, you could include the French and Indian wars as an add- on module... Jim Kelly ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 335 Sun Oct 15, 1995 L.PRATT [LRP] at 20:48 EDT Here, here, I second Jim Kelly's motion. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 336 Mon Oct 16, 1995 P.KELLER3 [Pete] at 00:23 EDT Why not do a french and indians game, and come up with an add-on for the Seven year War. Pete ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 337 Mon Oct 16, 1995 S.VANDERWAAL [Steve] at 00:39 EDT While I would love to see a GBOH treatment of The Seven Years War, I must take exception to the comment regarding COA's BAR system. I thought that Kolin was one of the best games to come out in the last ten years and I'm eagerly awaiting the Zorndorf game. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 338 Mon Oct 16, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:49 EDT Altho I'm sure that Paul Dangel is, by now, wiping the tears from his eyes with the reference to GB0H being so much "simpler" than his Kolin system, he can rest easy for a while. Altho we certainly do not want to restrict the progress of GBoH through the Halls of History, there is no Freddy in sight, as of yet. We do get a glimpse of Oliver the C, and a host of amis de Turenne, et al, but ne'er a Frederich on the schedule. Personally, I think Paul D has done a bang-up job with his Fthe Gross system, and, while such excellence on the part of others has never stopped me before, it's a matter of Mark and I approaching this thing systematically . . . so, if we're both still around (and you, too) when we get it it, we'll, uh, get to it eventually. I once started work on an F&I game . . . the map was a huge blotch of forest relieved by an errant town or two. Not much doing, gamewise, was my ultimate opinion. I may be wrong, but it would take much to get me back there . . . .RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 339 Mon Oct 16, 1995 J.KELLY73 at 19:39 EDT OK, I guess I'll have to reread the rules to Kolin a second time (the fact that they are second generation photocopies I borrowed from a friend who owns the game does not help matters). Although COA excels in the graphic presentation of its products, IMHO their rules leave a lot to be desired. Personally even if they are equal in complexity (which I doubt they are), I would much rather contend with another adaption of GBoH then wade through the clutter of COA. Perhaps I'll wait to see what the "Second Edition" of the "Battles from the Age of Reason" rules look like... ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 340 Mon Oct 16, 1995 B.MAKOWSKY [Julie&Magic] at 21:09 EDT Gents, On your advice the duty crew here at USCG Air Facility Glenview went to the 1st Division Museam yesterday. Wow what a great job they did. That place was outstanding! Any other places in the Chicago region to check out? (Been to the Sci&Ind Mus). Bob Makowsky ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 341 Mon Oct 16, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 22:18 EDT For those of you who may be able to attend, I will be ta the LexIcoN convention at Univ. of KY at Lexington on 28 October to demo Typhoon! and do my best to discuss other GMT products. --Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 342 Mon Oct 16, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 22:40 EDT When I was eight, my father took me to the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, where one of the attractions is the U-505, a Type IX U-boat. When I got back and told the other kids at school that I'd been inside a German U- boat the teachers, especially those nuns, called me a liar. Taking the souvenir book to school, then having my dad go to the next parent-teacher conference, put a quick end to that. It's an increbible place, one I'd love to see again. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 343 Tue Oct 17, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 11:45 EDT Jim: Don't hurry back too fast... I, too, went there a bunch as a kid...way cool exhibit, U-Boat, you know the rest... I took my kids there a few months ago and found out how much it had changed...the sub is still there and still cool, but the rest of the exhibit has been chopped down to almost nothing--the little movie they used to show about how the U-505 was captured was no longer in the little theater they had, now they run it on a rather small TV screen suspended above the line (it looks like a security video screen at a 7-11) and you can't stand and watch (the line is moving) and can't here the sound at all. I gave up on trying to draw my kid's attention to the screen and movie (they could neither see, nor follow it) and shuffled quickly through the sub itself . The naval models and torps they had on display are all gone...it was very disappointing and I'm sure the PC powers that be did the exhibit in as a waste of museum space glorifying war and dead white males. I don't think I'll bother going back...pity, I liked it alot as a kid. Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 344 Tue Oct 17, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 18:23 EDT Dean, That sucks. It was probably done by the same folks who used the Enola Gay exhibit at the Smithsonian as a chance to apologize to Japan. A cool museum is the Air Force Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB. It doesn't apologize for anything. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 345 Tue Oct 17, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 19:41 EDT Dean: Aw, you're kidding!!!!! I used to look forward to that trip down from Northern Wisconsin when I was a kid to see the U-Boat. There's still a Gato- class fleet boat tied up at the pier in Manitowoc, WI and we used to spend all kinds of time there. (They used to leave us ALONE in the thing for hours. It was too cool. I'm sure that practice is ended, what with the liabilities and all.) We didn't like the fact that you couldn't spend all day in the U-Boat in Chicago, but it was still something to see. And the movie was great! And the torps and ship models and everything else they had there. Man! What an exhibit! Since I've moved to the Chicago area, I've been trying to find the time to go to the museum and see that stuff again, but now I won't worry about it. Last year I talked my girlfriend into letting me take a detour on the way back from Green Bay to stop off at the Mariner's Museum in Manitowoc again. She was doubtful at first, but it's even better today than it was when I was a kid and even she was impressed. If you're going to go see a submarine and a really cool museum, take an hour and a half drive north of Chicago and check it out. Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 346 Tue Oct 17, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 20:32 EDT Richard, Gene, anybody: Another 3DoG question, and this time I'm sober... I assume a regiment that rallies may NOT subsequently shock an adjacent enemy. The rules seem to say this, but I wanted to be clear. Am I correct? Is the prohibition expressly stated somewhere? Thanks, Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 347 Tue Oct 17, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 22:58 EDT The Carnegie Science Center in Pittsburgh has a Corsair class boat, the USS Requin, grounded in the Allegheny River. It's funny; although I live only ten miles away, and it's been there a couple of years, I've yet to set foot on the sub. Maybe it's because of the $16.50 admission price for the science center. There's also a Balao class sub, the Becuna, in Philadelphia, in the Delaware River next to Dewey's cruiser USS Olympia. I saw it in 1980, and thought it was pretty good. The guide, however, didn't know much beyond the canned spiel, and covered this up by cutting off questions before they started. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 348 Wed Oct 18, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 04:26 EDT MArk, That's correct. A regiment that rallies is finished for that activation. Not sure on the rules reference, as I don't have my 3-DoG handy. Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 349 Wed Oct 18, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:07 EDT Gene is correct, and for thsoe interested in some military heavy metal on display, the USS Intrepid, in NY Harbor, is Le grand Tour de hardware. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 350 Wed Oct 18, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 11:11 EDT Jim: We went to the Olympia and the sub while in Philly for Origins...they were neat. On the same trip we stopped at the Wright-Pat museum...now that was way cool (and a half!). I can't wait to go back when I can spend more time ooohing and aaahhhing :) Dea ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 351 Wed Oct 18, 1995 J.GEORGE [Cromwell] at 18:35 EDT I was at the Intrepid a couple years ago and must say I could've spent thrice the time there that I did (meaning that it was very good). I was in Manhatten a couple months ago and went by but didn't stop. Looks like they've increased both the number of ships and changed some of the planes on the carrier deck (there's an SR-71 there that I don't believe was there before). Unless it was there for some other reason, I even believe I saw a three-master of some sort sitting nearby (though I didn't get much gawking time on the drive-by). ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 352 Wed Oct 18, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner] at 19:42 EDT Gene, Just a reminder - we're waiting on Dan for those 8AF Q and A and/or errata. Does anyone know if it's possible to get at the ships at the close(d, ing?) Naval base in Philadelphia? They've got 2 of the moth balled battleships and a number of other ships there. :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 353 Wed Oct 18, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 19:43 EDT I'm biased, but USS OLYMPIA is the greatest remaining example of naval architecture left in the country! It's the last reamining ship of the Spanish American War. It's a great example of the transition from sail to steam. It's the last triple expansion steam propulsion plant in existance anywhere. I've spent a lot of time on that ship -- mostly in engineering -- and it's a wonderful thing. I remember one time it was pouring rain, during the week, about mid-day and I had a couple hours to kill in Philadelphia. I took a cab from the airport and, because I was active duty military at the time, got on for free. I was about the only person on board, so I climbed down into the engine room and over the barriers around the main engine. One engine room on the ship is sealed off because it started leaking eons ago. Actually, the screws are gone and one shaft's been removed, so I was limited to that one engine room and the firerooms (boiler rooms). Back in the 1890's there wasn't much for relief of heat stress down there. I imagine it was miserable, with the only outside air coming down through the coal handling chutes. And the engine itself isn't insulated or really isolated from the people who must have operated it. The connecting rods are completely exposed and must have just THRASHED down there when the ship was underway. After an hour or so, I was more amazed at the technology brought to bear building that ship than ever before. To think that it steamed all over the world -- and into battle. It's sad that USS OLYMPIA wasn't saved. BB3 was reduced to hauling ammo during WWII and then was sold for scrap. At least there's one ship from that period still around. Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 354 Wed Oct 18, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 19:50 EDT Grinner: I don't think you can get on any of the mothballed ships in Philadelphia. Having sent a ship to the mothball fleet once, I know there's not much to see on one. Everything's been removed or sealed up. Your right about one thing, though. There're a lot of really great ships there. USS DES MOINES and one other ship are the last remaining heavy cruisers in the world. There's a submarine that was built for the Shah of Iran and never delivered -- although it was paid for. There are lots of FRAM- cans there along with several other classes of destroyers, mine sweepers and auxiliaries. I often thought that if I hung around the navy it would be nice to live in one of those houses right across from the fleet landing, waking up every morning and looking at those ships! One of the best views in the fleet. Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 355 Wed Oct 18, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 22:42 EDT Oh, so we've migrated to ships, now, eh? Dan, It was largely due to your posts awhile back that I knew what a "triple expansion steam engine" meant, and so enjoyed the trip aboard the OLYMPIA all that much more. Way cool. Three of the guys who went with us to ORIGINS were able to get in the yards at Philly, and walked right alongside the two BBs, tho they didn't get aboard. I admit that the INTREPID was fine, but I was a little disappointed that you couldn't wander thru much of the ship. I've been aboard the ALABAMA, MASSACHUSETTS, and TEXAS, and had much more free rein on those ships. As I recall, you pretty much saw only the flight deck, hanger deck, and O1 Island level of the Intrepid. The TEXAS was fascinating because it was a WWI era BB, while all of the others were WWII era construction. Interesting to see the engineering Progress. So far, BTW, the best BB to go aboard was the ALABAMA. You could get all thru her turret Barbettes, as well as pretty deep in Engineering. Now I need to get to N and S Carolina. Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 356 Thu Oct 19, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:20 EDT Those of you with emergency 3DoG questions, etal, will have to trust Gene for a while, as i will be in France until Octo 30th. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 357 Thu Oct 19, 1995 B.MAKOWSKY [Julie&Magic] at 08:39 EDT Richard, re Intrepid, Got to land on it during Navy week in NYC a couple of years ago. What a way to keep quals up landing on a docked ship! I loved it. Tons of great stuff to see. (Free admitance with a military Id too) Bob Makowsky ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 358 Fri Oct 20, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 08:10 EDT Gene: Need a 3DoG clarification: When a unit executes a Retreat Before Shock, the shocking unit may NOT fire at it, right? How about OTHER units exerting a ZOC into the hex? This may seem like a dumb question (8.5.4 seemed explicit to me) but my opponent was one of the credited playtesters (George Pearson), and I wanted to be sure before I questioned him :-) Thanks, Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 359 Fri Oct 20, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 10:01 EDT You're right, Mark. Nobody can fire at a unit retreating before shock. 8.5.4 refers to the shocking unit and is pretty clear. I don't know a reference off the top for the other units, but I'm sure that's how you play it. Greg, Thanks for the reminder. Haven't heard from Dan since the game con in early Sept. I'll give him a call... Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 360 Sat Oct 21, 1995 WOMBAT [Ghoti] at 00:42 EDT Gene: > BTW, we're hoping to create this game in such a way that there > will be an upgrade kit for current CK '95 owners. Thank you, thank you! Does this project then replace the previously mentioned possible Second Edition CK95? ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 362 Sat Oct 21, 1995 WOMBAT [Ghoti] at 20:05 EDT > A cool museum is the Air Force Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB. Definitely a great place! I work right across the street. :) Have you been there since they doubled it?? And added an I-MAX theatre! Even if you don't visit the I-MAX, you'll need more than two full days if you want to see and read EVERYTHING there. :) ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 363 Sat Oct 21, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 20:24 EDT Wombat, I was at the Air Force Museum last in 1979. My first visit was in 1968, when I was seven, and it was crammed into an old hangar. It's definitely a place I'd love to see again. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 364 Mon Oct 23, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 15:32 EDT Wombat, Yes, 2nd edition 95 is actually our in-house testbed for the CK '99 full revision of the game. Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 365 Mon Oct 23, 1995 C.PERLEBERG [Chris P.] at 19:49 EDT Hey, any errata available for Sinai? Been looking at the air game, and, aside from the fact that the Radar and Sam tracks are obviously reversed, I have a coupla other questions: 1) I figure you're supposed to use the modifiers given on the cards, instead of anything implied in the example of play (for example, the SAM fire example says you subtract 1 from the SAM attack because there's a -1 on the track, but the card says you subtract 1 for CAS missions -- or do you subtract 2?). The SAM fire modifiers also give an entirely different meaning to the -1 on the tracks. 2) What the heck is this 1L 2L stuff in SAM fire? Why have a 5 with a 1L instead of just plain 4? And what does a 1 2L mean when there are no columns left to shift? This has all the indications of a design change late in the cycle. Chris P. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 366 Mon Oct 23, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 23:41 EDT Gene: You knew this was going to happen - Richard goes to France and here come the 3DoG questions: 1. Campaign scenario - when does Stannard (3/3/I) arrive? I can't find him in the rules or in the errata. 2. Campaign scenario - Reb Cav that arrives before Stuart; are those regiments doomed to the Out Of Command Phase until JEB arrives? 3. Regiment shocks an extended line - is he considered to be shocking that EL's entire regiment, or just that EL section's strength? Point me at the rule, if you can. Be careful, here; I have LOTS of followups to this one depending on your answer :-) Thanks very much for your help; Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 367 Tue Oct 24, 1995 K.BOYLAN2 at 01:02 EDT Richard or Mark, In LION OF THE NORTH do non heavy infantry or tercio units have to stop in a hex in order to eliminate an artillery unit. Would it, for e xample, be possible for a caracole cav unit to move through several hexes occupied solely by artillery wiathout having to stop in order to eliminate them. Also, if a cavalry cr infantry (only) commander has a routed unit in his command radius, adjacent , or stacked, can he rally it, if it is not a cavalry or infantry unit (respectively). Thus, could banner rally a Swedish infantry uit in Breitenfeld? Thanx, Kevin ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 368 Tue Oct 24, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 09:56 EDT Chris, I'm gonna ask KEvin tooanswer those; he's much more "up" on the system than I am. Mark, &*%$#@*&! Where's Richard when you need him? Probably off drinking Belgian beer and laughing at the prospect of me having to answer his 3-DoG Q's. ,< The answer to the first two Q's is that I have no idea about set-up and out-of-command cavalry. That was purely Richard's area, so I don't have a clue. Has anyone here online gotten an answer from Richard regarding this? I do know about extended lines, though (and I'm looking forward to your follow- on questions like I am my next FGA game ). An extended unit is treated as ONE unit for all purposes. So, yes, you shock versus the entire strength. (Oops, for fire and determining whether it's a massed target, you divide the strenght evenly between the hexes). See 6.4.7, which indicates that that there would be a +1 tohe shock dieroll for the unit attacking. 6.4.3 , 2nd bullet, seems pretty clear to me (then again, I'm certainly no objective judge) about the unit being one for both Shock and Movement. I hope this helps. OK, I'm digging in for the follow-ons! Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 369 Tue Oct 24, 1995 B.LAROSE [BENLAR] at 21:36 EDT Hello all, A quick Q on Victory in the West. 26.3 VP Accumulation: Do you get VPs for control of fortresses and major cities over and above VP for the nation's surrender (i.e. if game ends and you score 600 points for the fall of France, do you also get points for ALL of France's cities and fortresses, only for those controlled immediately before surrender or not at all?)? Thx Benoit ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 370 Tue Oct 24, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 21:52 EDT Gene: Thanks for the answer. I looked at 6.4.7, and a little light came on, so I only have a couple of follow-ups (and oh, darn, FGA doesn't make games any more :-) ) If only one section of an EL regiment has a unit in its ZOC, does the ENTIRE extended regiment strength count for attack? I'd guess yes, for consistency's sake. If one part of an extended regiment takes fire, may BOTH sections fire appropriate reaction fire? Again, the answer seems to be yes, but I'd appreciate confirmation. Finally, I noted that the rules and the charts differ on the Defender Shock mod for EL; rules say +1, chart says +2. FWIW, I like +1... its already way to easy to get a positive shock result (or maybe I'm just lucky). Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 371 Wed Oct 25, 1995 GENERAL-3W [JY0] at 02:34 EDT Just finished talking to Kevin concerning the details for the Norway map! This one should be alot of fun to do. Talk about convoluted coastlines! Anyway, Kevin's playtest map is beautiful just as it is, you could practically sell it in the box as is. Also talked to Gene concerning the subject of Vietnam. I've got a couple of candidates for a "Glory" type game concerning tactical ground operations in I Corps. Gene seems interested in the proposal so work on my end is going forward. The first battle would be the two week series of battles near Dong Ha in May, 1968. The main U.S. participants are BLT 2/4(USMC) and the Gimlets(3rd/21st assigned to the 196th LIB). The USA unit was opconned to 3rd MarDiv during this period. The action centers around the village complexes of Dai Do and Nhi Ha, near the Cua Viet River. The enemy units were the 52nd battln/320NVA Division, and the 704th Bn/304 NVA Division. The battlegrounds were said to resemble Tarawa after the battle; the NVA were entrenched in bunkers and trenchlines, but also maneuvered out in the open to counterattack US positions. This would would be pretty much a stand up, rock'em, sock'em type game with both sides able to put the major hurt on each other. Joe Youst ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 372 Wed Oct 25, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 09:32 EDT Benoit, I think Kevin will pop in here and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I believe the answer is yes to the first question (you do get VPs for fortresses and major cities in addition to VPs for nation's surrender). In fact, I'm real sure about the first answer. The second I'm shakier about, but I think you only get VPs for those french cities and fortresses that you actually control. Mark, 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. It's +1; the rules are correct. All: I'd like to get your opinion on Vietnam tactical/operational games. The first game we ever did was an (award-winning ;) ) Vietnam game, but we haven't done one since because a) I've been busy on other projects, and b) feedback on that topic has been generally mediocre. Well, now I have two guys who have the desire and the ability to create games on this era, so would really appreciate your input as to whther or not "if we make them, you will buy." Thanks. Enjoy! Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 373 Wed Oct 25, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 19:05 EDT The idea of the Vietnam game sounds great. I've got nothing against studying the war, and the passage of a few more years since the publication of Silver Bayonet is liable to have given the conflict that more of a more balanced perspective. After all, with each passing year it goes less from news and more toward history. Also, it was an extremely interesting war, and the I Corps region was, with the Central Highlands, the cockpit of Vietnam. A good system with a combination of playability and historical flavor could do well. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 374 Wed Oct 25, 1995 M.SZARKA [Mike] at 19:28 EDT I will definitely buy a Vietnam game if: (1) It is of low-medium complexity; (2) It has a moderate unit count; (3) It uses only a single map; (4) It is playable solitaire OR uses a system which lends itself to PBEM (Aide de Camp). Those criteria are true for most of my purchases. Complexity is less of an issue than physical size, unit count, and game length. I like games I can play to conclusion (including campaign scenarios) without simultaneously quitting my job, getting divorced, and missing watching my child grow up. The trend towards games that are either too big or too small is a depressing one for me. Whatever happened to games with one 22x34" map, 200-400 counters, a 16-20 page rulebook, and 10-20 game-turns? Those games are like the porridge Goldilocks ate. :) Modern combat games, especially, seem to get too complicated. Just waxing nostalgic, Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 375 Wed Oct 25, 1995 B.LAROSE [BENLAR] at 20:32 EDT Mike! You can read my mind! I could have written this comment about game selection criterias word for word (but in French). You just forgot to mention price between 30-40 $ (CAN). 1 map, 200-400 counters should fall in this bracket. Thx Benoit ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 376 Thu Oct 26, 1995 J.KISNER [John] at 23:49 EDT I'd like to see a "We the People" style game on Vietnam. As far as tactical/operational games are concerned, I'm not sure if their are many good candidates... few ops stand out other than seiges like Khe Sanh and the invasions of Cambodia. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 377 Fri Oct 27, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 09:45 EDT Funny you should mention that, John. Mark and I have discussed it (a WTP-like system for Vietnam, that is), and I think, at some point we'll probably do it (once we get back several GBoH projects, Bellum, ACW, etc...). BTW, I thought you did a great job with the last issue of ZOC. Keep up the good work! Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 378 Fri Oct 27, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 19:23 EDT My .02 on the subject of a Vietnam game: I would love to see a well-made Vietnam game, or even a series of them a la The Gamers' TCS. Unfortunately, the war does not apparently lend itself well to gaming or the gaming market. The vast majority of sweeps, contacts and actions in Vietnam were company-sized or less. Many of these patrols were exercises in frustration, making no solid contact with enemy, but still suffering casualties due to heat exhaustion, booby traps, mines, and snipers. Many of the large, sustained operations of the war did produce heavy fighting, but these battles were rather sporadic due to the VCs/NVAs ability to break contact when they so chose. The remainder of the operation would again consist of company sweeps, and contacts with rear guard units or local VC forces with orders to harrass. I do think some of the battles described in Nolan's books such as _The Magnificent Bastards_ would provide good subjects for a designer. However, many of the things I look for in a game, similar to those already posted -- one map, 200-400 counters, high solitaire rating -- are foiled by the Vietnam War. With the rapid mobility of choppers, large areas of operation were assigned to a single battalion to sweep. So we would have cases where the map is of a rather large scale in order to encompass the AO, but the units being pushed around on the map may be only 4-6 companies, plus supporting artillery. It would look rather empty. Finally, surprise and ambush was the hallmark of the war. That means hidden units (or concealed units a la Advanced Squad Leader), which makes solitaire play rather difficult and much less enjoyable that a ftf game would be. Again, it does not lend itself to what I look for in a game. OTOH, I am waiting for the day that somebody does a computer game on the subject, like Steel Panthers! I wish you luck in your endeavors. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 380 Sat Oct 28, 1995 J.KELLY73 at 20:20 EDT Gene, Forget Vietnam, how about some more games and modules for GBoH. I am especially looking forward to the game on the Crusades :) Jim K. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 381 Sat Oct 28, 1995 J.KINCAID1 [John] at 20:47 EDT ======= To: GMT.GAMES ======= Funny you should mention that, John. Mark and I have discussed it (a WTP- like system for Vietnam, that is), and I think, at some point we'll probably do it (once we get back several GBoH projects, Bellum, ACW, etc...). BTW, I thought you did a great job with the last issue of ZOC. Keep up the good work! ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 382 Sun Oct 29, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 03:24 EST Actually I'd like to see a game on how to meet beautiful single women while still hanging around gaming geeks! I haven't won yet! ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 383 Sun Oct 29, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 10:53 EST Samurai Cat -- You CAN'T meet beautiful single women while hanging around gaming geeks! What are you thinking of??!! You can only meet beautiful single women by playing THEIR game -- and they get to set the rules! Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 384 Sun Oct 29, 1995 D.CICERO [Dan Cicero] at 19:29 EST Samurai Cat: Beautiful women (and even some of the ugly ones) play their own games, as Stu has noted. You don't get to know the rules, when they're playing and when they're not, what the victory conditions are or what turn you're on. Makes ENEMY AT THE GATES look easy, but ya gotta love it. What a game. Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 385 Mon Oct 30, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 00:57 EST I gotta add that playing stuff like Enemy at the Gates and Second Front is a damned sight less expensive, too. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 386 Mon Oct 30, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 05:12 EST That's why we call it "Value received", JW . . . well, I've returned from a wonderful 10 days in France, most of it in "le pays Cathar". Ever climb to the top of one of those incredible Cathar castles? Ooooh boy; used my adrenalin supply for a month. Also found Narbonne (ye olde Gallia Narbonnensis) delightful, including the game store we stumbled upon that carried some of my games. (Instant con.) Also glad to see only one set of 3DoG questions (which, hopefully, kept Gene up at nites). I thought i sent you the errata, Mf not, I will do so immediately, as the 3/3/I mystery is solved therein. (It arrive 7/1, 1900 - the 3.1.III there is a typo). Arriving reb cav regiments sans leader are Out of Command, yes . . .but remember, if they enter in Reinf StratMove they can stay in that mode until the player wishes them otherwise. If you wish, you may assign one regiment to a division commander, one per leader, and thence to one of his brigades, etc etc. Not going to make much difference in the outcome. As to EL return fire, yes, if LOS is OK. Also yes to one unit theory for shock. (I could add a rather complex rule about having the "non-engaged" half of the Extrended unit advance into the vacant hex immediastely prior to shock, in sort of a wrap-around flank attack . . . but I'm too lazy.) Kevin . . . I haven't looked at LION in some time (I will, tho, when I start work on TERCIO). However, methinks that cavalry would simply ride down undefended guns . . . and that foot units would simply detach a few men to take care of them. I assume this is not covered in the rules, so let's just say no MP cost to do so. As to the rally 'q' I would say "no". Time to unpack and get back to work . . . .tant pis. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 387 Mon Oct 30, 1995 M.SZARKA [Mike] at 09:19 EST ======= To: J.WERBANETH ======= > I gotta add that playing stuff like Enemy at the Gates and Second Front > is a damned sight less expensive, too. I've never known either of those games to ruin several years of a person's life, either, although they may have the potential to do so. :) Mike ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 388 Mon Oct 30, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 10:23 EST S.Cat: The secret (or so I am told) is to have several million $ in your bank account...at which point you will suddenly become irresistable (gaming geeks or no...). Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 389 Mon Oct 30, 1995 W.ANDERSON38 at 16:35 EST I was thinking of buying 3DoG but first want to know about the second/revised edition plans. If a new map is printed will owners of the first edition be charged for the new maps? Would I be better off to wait and purchase the second/revised edition? ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 390 Mon Oct 30, 1995 J.WERBANETH at 18:31 EST Everything I know about relationships I learned from the late Sam Kinnison. Jim Werbaneth ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 391 Tue Oct 31, 1995 P.CHIU4 [Samurai Cat] at 02:50 EST Yes Dean...it's amazing just how much the dollar really means to people. Reminds me of Anna Nicole Smith and that geezer she married. In GOD we trust..... Sorry for the drift folks. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 392 Tue Oct 31, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:00 EST WAnderson . . .I know of no plans to reprint the maps to 3DoG, as there is really nothing wrong with them, other than some very minor (and totally tangential to play) errata. The commentary on the maps mostly concerns itself with a somewhat different style of cartography that Rick B used; the maps are more "dense", with more information than most players are used to (which is why they look so "good"). Whether this is a good approach to this area of gaming we will shortly know . . . .so far the reaction has been (by far) mostly positive. As for the rules, like any new "system" - and thisd can be said for almost any company: cf. Koln (CoA), Fateful Lightning (XTR), and any of the Gamers original TCS stuff - that attempts to be meaty, much will arise that was never thought of before The 3DoG errata is not any longer than that which appeared for the original editions of Alexander and SPQR, and most of it is clarifications . . .and some rather dumb (but not overly telling) typos. There are 2-3 changes which are important, but nothing that cannot be abdsorbed. Whether this is ideal is obvious . . . but, unfrotunaytely (and as discussed ad infinitum in a topic below), it is one the wartish ways of life in this hobby. Whether its worth your money is your perception, but I think (hope) other, less fiscally-interested, people herein will agree that it is well worth it. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 393 Tue Oct 31, 1995 W.ANDERSON38 at 17:58 EST Richard, I was really asking in reference to Gene's post on this topic of Oct. 5, in which he states that art for new maps has been finished and expresses his desire in wanting to reprint the maps. I just want to know if the new maps are going to be printed. Because I understand the imperfections of the design process (especially with a new system) and know that documentation errors are easily fixed, rules errata does not concern me. Maybe you can't empathize with people who are "fiscally-interested" such as myself, but we need to make sure we get the most value for our money. And for me, that is making sure that I get the latest maps for my $59. ======== Gene's post ========= < In the meantime, if we need to do updates for the summer stuff, we will (Rick has the art done (with overlaps) for new 3-DoG maps, but we don't have the funds yet to reprint them, and just can't bring ourselves to ask guys to pay for 2nd ed maps that just fix OUR mistakes on the first ones. So, we'll have to wait until we get the money. We're hoping that the fall speicals and the pre-orders will bring in enough extra so that we can do the 3-DoG maps as well. Flyers go out on Monday, so we should know within a couple of weeks. > ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 395 Wed Nov 01, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:30 EST WA. . .(sigh), by "fiscally interested" I refered to the publishers, desdigners, etc. (Further proof that the Great Ether of the Internet is noted for a high level of literalism). And I do apologize, as I was not aware that Gene was planning on reprinting the map, other than when he runs a new printing. To do otherwise is to invite a major money problem (cf. fiscally interested), as who would buy the map separately (and/or again)? in sufficient #s to make it feasible/profitable. (After all, pubvlishing games is not a wholey philanthropic undertaking.) I'm not sure I comprehend all of this. The 3DoG map looks great, but has some (very) minor errata: people start clamoring for their bucks, or demanding new versions. The maps to such as fateful Lightning and/or Piercing the Reich suck the visual weiner and no one does more than mutter (or gag, depending on one's tolerance for such). There's a very high Entitlement Fever running these days. When was the last time anyone saw a turkey movie and asked for his/her money back on the way out? (Not that they'd give it to you, which is what you expect their reaction to be) Ever read 50 pages into a new book and toss it aside (noting, as it sails across the room, that it contained some intereseting "juxtapositioning" of letters within words). Ever think of returning it to the store? (Actually, one or two stores in my area WILL take it back!!! Gitta be convincing, tho . . . .) So, why the difference with games, hmmm?? It's not that I don't think that consumers should not voice displeasure; most definitely the opposite. But (as I muse in a philosophical vein, Hayden in the background), why is there a difference in approach here? RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 396 Wed Nov 01, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 19:53 EST RHB- You are so right . . . caveat emptor, I always say. Every purchase is a calculated gamble. Just try to make informed decisions and stop whining. After playing most of Day One of 3DoG, here is my final take on this game: it is as good a regimental ACW system as one can expect. We did come across a lot of situational anamolies that were not adequately addressed in the rules, but a query posted here or some basic logic was all it took to resolve these. The LIM system is great, and works much better here thatn in LOO. I question the need to differentiate a lot of the small arms effects . . . I never noticed all that much difference except at 1-hex range. The Efficiency concept, ie you can't control your whole army all the time, is the primary innovation with this game, and I hope to see it used often in the future. My biggest problem with 3DoG is not with the system, but with teh scal [C (and this is just a matter of personal taste). I think big Civil War battles work best at a brigade level. . . you see the "big picture" much more clearly and don't spend most of your time micromanaging. That is why I would like to see this system applied to smaller engagements (nothing bigger than Pea Ridge, and even that's pushing it). Just what are the plans for this series? -JC ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 397 Wed Nov 01, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 23:32 EST JC, Richard can speak to his own intentions for the 3DoG system, but I believe he has already indicated that the next release will be a package containing South Mountain and Cedar Mountain -- certainly a scale more to your liking! Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 398 Thu Nov 02, 1995 D.SCHNELL2 [DanS] at 01:43 EST Mr. Berg, I think the difference is price of a game compared with that of movies or books. We live in a instant world, the industry is small and tough if you don't produce and provide, you die. I think Gene made the right move, he does not want a 3W rap,and keep his customers happy. no????? yes???? DanS ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 399 Thu Nov 02, 1995 J.KELLY73 at 04:14 EST Richard, Glad to see you back from France. Now on to business - what is the status of Tercio and the Caesar modules. I hate Romans killing Romans - I'd much rather kill some Celts or (especially) Germans instead... Jim Kelly ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 400 Thu Nov 02, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:22 EST Actually, Stu, the next GBACW release is GRINGO . . . . I thought I had posted this, but it appears I have not. There is an addition to the 3DoG Continuoius Shock rule. Each time a unit engages in Continmued Shock (in succession, to be sure), subtract one from the Shgock DR. Thus, a second continued shock would produce a DR of -2. The ideal ACW battle simulation may well be brigade . . . but the reason regimental level does so well is that it visualizes the scope and massive(osity) of the battle, a sense of the dreadful size of it all and the impossibility og keeping it all under control. Caesar report: JC will next appear in a full, boxed game (not a module) for GBoH: GAUL. This will include the three major battles of the Gallic War - Bibracte, Sambre and the unamed one vs Ariovistus, plus the complete Siege of Alesia. Scheduled for early 1997 (to follow CATAPHRACT, the next volume after SAMURAI). TERCIO when we can jam it in . . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 401 Thu Nov 02, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 08:31 EST REgarding the 3-DoG map, as I mentioned before, the issue is printing and money. Because of map costs, it's highly unlikely that we would reprint at any time other than when we're running maps for other games. So, as we do the maps later this month and in December for the next three games, we'll check the ol' cash-o-meter and see if we can swing it. If not, we'll try again during the next printing cycle. On a somewhat unrelated but important subject, please take note of what Dean has said about THE GAMERS financial needs in terms of pre-orders down in topic 43. As a gamer, I STRONGLY urge you guys to help out and make some direct pre- orders from them. I know what a heavy burden lots of inventory and less cash can be, and would really hate to see that fine company hamstrung with this difficulty. Here's a place where you guys can help to strengthen our hobby, and I don't think there's any question that you'll get fine games shipped on time for your money. Thanks in advance for helping. Enjoy the games! Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 402 Thu Nov 02, 1995 S.BRITTON2 [Stu] at 08:54 EST RHB, Oooops! I forgot about GRINGO ... somehow I just don't associate the term "gringo" with any battle in the American Civil War. I thought the question referred to Civil War battles, so naturally GRINGO didn't spring to mind. Mea culpa. Stu ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 403 Thu Nov 02, 1995 THE-GAMERS at 11:23 EST Gene: Thank you for the vote of support. Such a burden (paper profit vs cash flow loss) can make little sense to many who have not been in those shoes ( I doubt I would have believed it had it not happened to us :( I'm glad your pre-order strategies from earlier in the year went well in getting your fine company over the same rut...now its our turn in the barrel :) All the best, Dean ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 404 Thu Nov 02, 1995 W.ANDERSON38 at 16:43 EST Richard, Please don't misunderstand me; I don't believe there is a different approach to games. I did buy PtheReich and threw up upon seeing the map, but I would not ask for my money back. But this situation of 3DoG is different in that the publisher had stated that there was a possiblity of a new map being printed. Regardless of the changes made to the map, I would want to have the latest version of it, even if the old map is fine, just as I would want the new edition of a book with the typos corrected. All I wanted was to know if the map was going to be reprinted so I would know whether to wait for the new map or not. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 405 Thu Nov 02, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 17:26 EST My thanks as well, Gene for the plug... A point here, about something that has always bugged me a little. I don't think any one scale is inherently "better" than any other for a game - it just depends on the design choices made. For instance, I see it repeated endlessly that Brigade-level is the ideal scale for ACW. I don't buy that. Certainly the brigade was the unit of manuever - but any close reading of a detailed battle narrative will reveal as much tactical richness and flavor within a brigade - and the complexities that occurred as a brigadier manuevered his regiments into and out of action. This is as much fun from a gaming level as manuevering brigades within a division, to my mind. Certainly players may prefer a brigade scale at times, for a number of laudable reasons - ease of play, the ability to finish large actions in fewer sittings, etc. No game ever really purports to represent only one level of POV. In brigade scale, you are handling everything from divisions to corps - a significant span of command. I don't see how you are losing any sense of realism by adding the brigadier's job. I suppose this sounds a little heretical coming from a guy whose work is all done in brigade-level games - but I would say that our chosen scale has more to do with finding the right market and producing cost-effective games, rather than striving for some perceived superiority of scale... Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 406 Thu Nov 02, 1995 J.CAPARULA at 20:19 EST It was never my intent to "dictate" the "proper" scale for Civil War battle games. My preference for brigade-level is for the very reasons M. Powell expostulates. I like the feel of regimental games but find them daunting when on the scale of Gettysburg (or, blast from the past, Shiloh). Actually, I always liked the "demi-brigade" approach those old West End titles used (Chickamauga, South Mountain, et al) . . .was that you, too, Berg? ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 57 Mon Nov 06, 1995 J.KELLY73 at 21:37 EST Gene, Just received issue #5 of my four issue subscription to C3I. I still have an ongoing problem with countersheet #3 of SPQR however. The counters on this sheet (still unpunched) were horribly miscut during printing, with the result that information on one counter often spills over to an adjacient counter or the counter tree. If you could send me a replacement countersheet for SPQR countersheet #3, I would be most appreciative. Sincerely, Jim Kelly Brooklyn, NY 11218 ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 58 Tue Nov 07, 1995 A.LEWIS16 [Marmaduke] at 06:29 EST ATTENTION: Playtesters wanted! I'm developing the second game in the GMT Gameplayer's Series and am looking for some gamers who like short (~2 hours) games that have gaming time available over the next 2-3 months. The game is on the battle of Saratoga during the American Revolution. No knowledge of the battle or war is necessary just a passion for fun games that are good for tournament play. Playtest kits include nice looking color photocopy map, color coded counters which only need to be pasted and cut out and approximately 6 pages of GMT formatted rules. I'm looking for approximately 4 groups and 1 solo player. If interested, please send e-mail to A.Lewis16 along with some background on gaming experience of players (not just experts required) and a snail mail address. Thanks, Andy ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 59 Tue Nov 07, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 08:12 EST Richard, Gene, anybody: Having a blast playing 3DoG, but I've developed a small issue with the artillery rules. It has become popular in our gaming group to run the batteries up to 3 hex range during movement, then blast awway using reaction fire #4 at first opportunity. This is especially devastating if smoothbores are involved. Given minimum infantry protection, this tactic has proven so far almost unstoppable. From a historical perspective, this seems a little to Napoleonic(?). I figure one of three things is going on: 1. This is a valid and historically viable tactic, properly modeled, and I'm just slow to learn how to stop it. 2. This is not strictly historical, but is the result of a design compromise of some sort. A house rule is in order if we have a big problem with it. 3. Oops! The playtesters didn't try that... Note: My perspective may be skewed after suffering through July 1 as Union commander (5 arty battalions to my 2). While I'm at it, I also find the fatigue rules a little extreme (too much fatigue generated too fast), but I need to play them a whiloe longer before I pursue that here. Any comment on either subject would be appreciated. Mark Olson ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 60 Tue Nov 07, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 11:43 EST Jim, I'll send a countersheet #3 to SPQR right out. Sorry for the problem. Mark, I'd better let Richard handle that one; I didn't get too involved in the modeling aspects of this one. Enjoy the games! Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 61 Tue Nov 07, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner] at 18:53 EST Gene, Here's my periodic (or at least sporadic) reminder about the outstanding 8th Air Force questions. You had said that Dan was putting an errata sheet together or something... :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 62 Wed Nov 08, 1995 GMT.GAMES at 03:35 EST Yes, thanks for reminding me Greg. I just got the errata sheet from Dan. Anyone who wants one, send me e-mail. I'll wait a couple of days until we have a good group of requests, then send a mass e-mail to all with attached file. Well, if you missed the OCtober and Pre-order specials, you can still get in. We finally resurrected about 2,500 "lost" customer names from our database today (these got trashed in the late summer when we had computer troubles) and decided to go ahead and send the pre-order flyers and special sale to those guys, too. We're going to extend all the deadlines (including the one for the free game) until November 30. So, if you want to take advantage, let me know, or call our Toll-Free line at (800)523-6111. Enjoy the games! Gene ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 63 Wed Nov 08, 1995 ALAN.EMRICH at 10:57 EST Gene, Put my name on the 8th Air Force errata email list. Thanks, Alan Emrich ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 64 Wed Nov 08, 1995 D.TTREASURE at 19:32 EST Gene or Vance Where can I find errata for Operation Mercury? Was it included in any issue of 3CI? Thanks D. Treasure ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 65 Wed Nov 08, 1995 GCOURTER [Grinner] at 20:03 EST Gene, Sounds good on the 8th Air Force errata - but what about just uploading it to the Scorpia Wargame files and posting the number. Then it's there for anyone to download whenever they want it. Unless of course you're looking for other info from us GEnie members... :)er ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 66 Wed Nov 08, 1995 V.VONBORRIES at 20:46 EST to Treasure: Call the GMT 800 number and they will maul (mail) the latest Op.Mercury errata to you right away. No errata has been added in the last year or so. - Vance ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 67 Wed Nov 08, 1995 P.PERLA at 23:17 EST Gene, Just wanted to tell you that i plan to take a look at the Loo stuff this week/weekend. I took a couple of days off of work to chill out and do game stuff. Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 68 Thu Nov 09, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 05:52 EST Mark, it's most likely #3, but I'm not sure whether 1 or 2 applies. I know that was something they tried at 1st Manasass, where there was a high level of close-in firing. If it bothers you, you can always play along thre e lines of arty batteries may never voluntarily move inside/within enemy small-arms range. That would ameliorate the situation . . . however, the CSA does have a remarkable arty advantage fdor most of 1st day, an advantage astute players always take advantage of . . . . Lemme know how my suggestion works. RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 69 Thu Nov 09, 1995 A.LEWIS16 [Marmaduke] at 06:20 EST Gene, I'll take the 8AF errata as well. Thanks ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 70 Thu Nov 09, 1995 B.OLSON4 [Mark Olson] at 08:04 EST Richard: Thanks; We'll go ahead and give it a try. Actually, we thought about this solution, but it seems TOO restrictive. We are working on a "you can do it, but you'll pay" type of a solution for a house rule. Mark Olson PS: AMELIORATE??! Where did THAT come from?? :-) ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 71 Thu Nov 09, 1995 P.KELLER3 [Pete] at 20:33 EST Please send me the eratta for 8th airforce Pete ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 72 Thu Nov 09, 1995 M.E.BROOKS [Evan] at 22:00 EST Add me to the 8AF errata list. Thanks. Evan ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 73 Thu Nov 09, 1995 P.PERLA at 22:05 EST Gene, Add another to the great eight errata list. Andy, If you need a solo tester for Saratoga, count me in. Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 74 Thu Nov 09, 1995 R.TAYLOR77 [Roger] at 22:26 EST Gene, please add me to the 8AF list. Thanks -- Roger ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 75 Fri Nov 10, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 05:52 EST Mark, "ameliorate" is the word that comes right after "amelioseven" . . . or, perhaps, its what you pay toA (I think that's about enuf . . . time for my medicine . . .) RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 76 Fri Nov 10, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 07:27 EST ATTENTION; 3Doggies. Here is a NEW, "experimental" rule. I'd like to see some reaction to how (if?) it works: [6.4.8] ADDITION: Optional (Experimental) Rule: Wrap-Around. (This is an exception to 6.4.3) When an Extended Line unit Shock attacks a single-hex enemy unit, and part of the Extended Line is not in contact with the enemy but, if it could move forward, would be, that half of the Extended unit MAY move forward, into the empty hex if: it would place the defender in its ZOC, and that hex is not in the ZOC of another enemy unit. Example: Map A. Defender in 3311 facing west; attacker in 3109-3110, extended, facing east. Attacker moves into 3210-3211 to Shock. The 3210 portion is not in contact with the defending unit but it may become so by moving the half that is in 3210 into 3310. The effects are as follows: 1. There is no -1 DRM for attacking Extended (and there will probably be a +3 for attacking through the Flank) 2. After the result of the Shock is applied the attacker is immediately Retracted (6.4.4). This would take place before any Continued Shock, etc. If/when using this rule 6.4.3 is changed so that, when computing SP for Shock only consider the part(s) of an Extended Unit that have a defender in its ZOC as contributing points (in addition to the -1 for attacking Extended). Trust that came out OK . . . perhaps the reference to there being a "+3" flanking DRM because it is now a flank attack didn't come out. Some letters got cut off, but you'll figure it out . . . .Reaction??? RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 77 Fri Nov 10, 1995 W.ARNSDORF [MARTY] at 19:35 EST Mark/Richard: We have experienced a similar problem in our game of 3DoG. After some discussion, we came up with the following: 1)Rapid Fire range is decreased to two hexes. 2) Small arms fire against a hex with arty and infantry affects each ie. a "d" would require both the arty and the infantry to roll a UDD. The above forces arty into small arms range if they want to use rapid fire, something I think was used in a more defensive role, and prevents the infantry from shielding the guns. Marty ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 78 Fri Nov 10, 1995 C.PERLEBERG [Chris P.] at 19:36 EST I know a band wagon when I see one... Please, the errata for 8th Air Force. Incidently, as a diehard OTR/ASP fan, who has a J.D. Webster shrine in my home (along with St. Joseph and Newt Gingrich ;-), I have to say 8th AF ain't very realistic, but my 8 year old son and I have fun playing it, and that's worth a lot. Chris P. ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 79 Fri Nov 10, 1995 J.KELLY73 at 20:33 EST Gene, Many thanks for SPQR countersheet #3. Myself (and Pyrrhus) will be much relieved when it arrives. ------------------------------------- Rich, I recently broke out "Julius Caesar" in preparation for the upcoming module regarding the conquest of Gaul (or, as they say at Decision Games, Gall). While I agree with your playtesters that the first cohort of the Xth Legion should have a TQ of 9, I use the following house rule which allows the first cohort to have an effective TQ of 9 - sometimes. > " Any veteran or recruit Roman cohort stacked with its Eagle may subtract one from all TQ rolls it may make. Additionally, when stacked with an Eagle one is subtracted from all melee attacks the unit may make, or is added if the unit is defending in melee. If both the attacker and the defender qualify for the Eagle bonus, it is negated." While this little bit of chrome adds very slightly to the game's complexity, IMHO it makes "Julius Caesar" both more historically accurate and more enjoyable by relieving the Eagles from their administrative duties in the rear, and moving them up to the front lines to inspire and motivate the legionaries, where they belong! Jim Kelly PS - Anyone intested in this subject should read chapter IV of Caesar's "Gallic War", particularly the section covering the contested landing of the Xth Legion in Britain. Any plans for including this battle (complete with blue-painted Britons in chariots) in the next JC module? ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 80 Sat Nov 11, 1995 S.VASTA [Sal] at 05:38 EST Rich, I swear I did not pay Jim to say that about the Xth. :) So during your most recent trip to Gaul, did you find out anything new about the alternate site for Alesia? Jim, That's a pretty good rule regarding the Eagles. Only problem that occurs is regarding the victory penalties one gets for losing the Eagle. It's not too hard to rout and kill a unit in GBoH, thus players will end up going Eagle hunting and rack up a slew of rout points. Of course, you could just ignore the penalty or significantly reduce the rout point total associated with its loss. Ciao, Sal ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 81 Sat Nov 11, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:26 EST Actually, it's a rather nice rule, even with the inherent "gamey" problem Sal points out. What you would have to do is come up with a tangential rule enabling a routed unit cum Eagle to transfer (hand off) the old bird to a(n adjacent?) friend as it headed for the great beyond . . . Give it a try and see how/if it works. Speaking of that, has anyone been playing the new Phalanx Rout rule? If so, comments invited. We now consider it an "official" rule . . . Marty: problem with your 3DoG arty suggestion is that, while it has the desired effect, it is highly artificial, and probably not very "historical" I think that using an Artillery Tactical Doctrine rule, which states that batteries may not enter (voluntarily) a hex that is within enemy small-arms range and LOS works just as well. It's also cleaner . . .and gives a better result (sort of like high-priced gas). It's pretty much what happened anyway. Am most curious to see how the Wraparound rule (above) works . . . RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 82 Sat Nov 11, 1995 D.POWELL4 [Dave Powell] at 08:21 EST Arty/3Dog This is a case where the older system was better, perhaps, in that formation changes were explicit. A battery changing formation within range of enemy infantry would draw significant fire. This is why arty was so hard to use offensively, and why so few arty commanders were willing to commit guns to close with an enemy line - they'd get picked apart before they could commence firing. There were certainly exceptions, of course, but advancing arty was a puzzle few figured out. I'd be inclined to have the arty declaration of fire a fire trigger for any and all infantry in range. In effect, give any infantry around a free shot before the arty gets to fire itself. If it survives, then continue as normal. What do you think Richard? Is that workable? Dave Powell ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 83 Sat Nov 11, 1995 P.PERLA at 11:39 EST I have not had the time to break out 3DoG, but this issue of artillery moving into infantry fire range intrigues me. It seems to me that if the artillery moves up into close range of infantry, the infantry should be able to fire at it before it fires at the infantry. this shouold be a fairly simple solution (although I am not familiar with the sequence of play). The truth of the matter is, it did not take a good battery long to unlimber and go into action. Remember Pelham's performance at Frederiscksburg. I disagree with Richard's Doctrine approach on principle. I also think that Dave's solution is too much. Giving units free shots seems just as unrealistic as giving them no shots. Peter ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 84 Sat Nov 11, 1995 W.ARNSDORF [MARTY] at 13:36 EST I would beg to differ that my arty rule for 3DoG is more artificcial than a rule that simply prohibits a possible action by the guns. There were instances (I'm sure) of guns moving in for close-in work. My rule simply makes it a risky proposition. Anyway, you make this stuff up, so can we! Marty ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 85 Sat Nov 11, 1995 WOMBAT [Ghoti] at 17:02 EST Gene: > I'd like to get your opinion on Vietnam tactical/operational games. Phantom Leader! Phantom Leader! :) ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 86 Sun Nov 12, 1995 B.LAROSE [BENLAR] at 00:30 EST Gene, Took advantage of your Operational Series deal and got myself Airbridge to Victory/Shoestring. Qs on ABV: The German 2Art setting up in A/0706 (Campaign Game) is really flipped to 2- 1- 4 side? (Campaign Game also) Where does 1/22/10SS Mot Inf Bat shows up in the game? Can't find it in At Start or in Reinforcements sections. Can the German blow up bridges following an Allied setup adjacent to or do these become automatically captured by the Allies? Is there any errata published for these two games? Can I get them pls? Thx Benoit ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 87 Sun Nov 12, 1995 T.BARNETT5 at 01:15 EST Gene Please add me to the list of 8AF errata seekers. Thanks, Ted ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 88 Sun Nov 12, 1995 MIH.SUPPORT [Ulrich] at 04:24 EST Richard: your message 75: :-) ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 89 Sun Nov 12, 1995 J.GOBLE at 09:14 EST Gene, Please add my name to the 8th Air Force errata list. Thanks, John ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 90 Sun Nov 12, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 09:58 EST Problem with 3DoG arty is that there does not appear to be a middle ground between doctrinary stuff/restriction and what the rule is now. I'm trying to keep Reaction Fire to a minimum (its way past that now, but I'm trying to keep parameters in sight). I'm gonna think on this one, as they say . . . .RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 91 Sun Nov 12, 1995 J.PETRANOVI1 [Jim P.] at 19:43 EST I've tried the new Phalanx rule for GBoH, but only in Alex solitaire play. I'm not sure I like it, it adds lots of luck. Sure, the luck is there is other die rolls already, but it becomes about a 50-50 shot of a phalanx disappearing. As long as the Phalanx holds the line, it keeps things together (while ole Alex rolls up a flank), but if it breaks soon, the whole center caves in. It certainly helps the Phalanx and keeps it defensive, but it was already pretty bad to attack with a Phlanx and risk having to advance out of line. Overall, the rule has a gamey feel. I think Rich should try agin, for something a little more elegant. Have you considered just halving all effects of disorganization on double sized unis? Maybe also double the points an attacking Phalanx gets. (So it would take 14 cohesion points to rout a 7 quality unit, and every 2 points would act line one "normal" point for other purposes.) Besides, I bet the commanders had some feel on when a Phalanx was about to break. Jim ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 92 Mon Nov 13, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 06:29 EST Jim P . . .your first paragraph is the exact result we wished to obtain. And altho I know I'm butting my head against that Thick Wall of Perception, dierolls are NOT luck . . .and, albeit its our rulke, we find the present incarnation moreelegant than doubling and halving. (Any time you bring fractions intoi play, eyes start rolling . . . .). Anyone else wanna jump in here ?? . . .RHB ------------ Category 4, Topic 7 Message 93 Mon Nov 13, 1995 RICHARD.BERG at 09:23 EST The 3DoG artillery has raised quite a few comments, suggestions . . and problems in terms of their interaction with the enemy and seeming ability to avoid harm. Part of the problems actually stems from the great superiority the CSA has in guns for much of the first day. However, there are some rules "loopholes" which I will now attempt to close, with the following "errata" and new rules. To wit: (8.1.4) EXCEPTION. As an exception to b/1 - Cease Movement Fire - if an artillery unit stops movement and is going to fire with its remaining MPs, it is considered to have Ceased Movement for purposes of this rule. (8.2.9) CHANGE: Guns using Rapid Fire are not auto Low/No. They do use the 0 and 10 Ammo results, tho. (See Change to 8.4.1, below.) However, guns that moved (excluding changing facing) in a phase may not use Rapid Fire. (Optional Addition) On an adjusted Fire CRT DR of 5 , instead of the result being an Ammo depletion, roll the die. If even, it is an Ammo, as printed. If odd, the guns have Jammed. (Use the Abandoned Gun counters for this; they re not doing anything anyway.) Jammed guns cannot fire. Jammed markers are removed (automatically) in the Replacement Phase. (9.3.4.) ADDITION: Small-arms Fire Effects vs Artillery. When small-arms units fire against any hex containing enemy artillery, the following exceptions to the Combat Results are in effect: ALL results to the artillery unit (except for No Effect), whether d-2 or 4D , are treated by artillery as a D . If arti