************
Category 25,  Topic 24        Fri May 26, 1995
B-MAX [slvrhillaero]         at 20:24 EDT
Sub: Gary Grigsby's STEEL PANTHERS

News and discussion about Gary Grigsby's latest design.
179 message(s) total.
 ************
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 237       Wed Sep 27, 1995
M.VINARCIK1 [Michael J.]     at 21:45 EDT

Will this run under Win95?
                                        Mike
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 238       Thu Sep 28, 1995
B-MAX [slvrhillaero]         at 06:47 EDT

    Evidently "Steel Panthers" is being shipped by "Wooden Mules"
                                         (DEAD woooden mules at that)

Some SSI reps messages from CIS are floating around on the net. He claims SP
is still in duplication and will ship next week..........
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 239       Thu Sep 28, 1995
J.HEBERT3                    at 18:08 EDT

 Several stores quoted a ship date of 9/27 (Wed.). They say if that's
 true, it should show up Friday or Monday. This is in the Orlando, FL
 area.

 Apparently Matt meant "on its way" in his Monday message in a broad
 sense as opposed to "in the hands of UPS" as we optimistically took
 it.  Oh well.

 --- Joe H.
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 240       Thu Sep 28, 1995
PAS.JPD [Jaded Gamer]        at 19:55 EDT

Mike -- Yes, it runs under Win 95, though the docs claim it won't (I think
they're just covering their butts).

I'll be really interested to see what you all think of this very highly
anticipated game...

Jaded
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 241       Thu Sep 28, 1995
J.HEBERT3                    at 20:23 EDT

 Jaded - We're really interested in telling you what we think. Now if we
 could only buy it, everybody would be happy <g>.

 --- Joe H.
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 242       Mon Oct 02, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 15:37 EDT

(Butts covered), the game may very well run under Win95.  I won't state that
though, because it was not developed for it, and I cannot guarantee it on
every machine.
 Give it a try, if it doesn't work, let me know and I will try to make some
suggestions,

 Ship: We started getting calls this morning.  You should see it in your local
stores as we speak. If it's not there now, it'll be there soon.

 and to restate the \SCEN bug

   If you do a full install of SP, it makes (among others) an X:\STEEL\SCEN
directory on your drive.  This is where scenarios are kept.
   If you do a small or medium install, the scenarios are kept on your CD, and
the X:\STEEL\SCEN is never created.  BUT, the scenario editor in the game
doesn't know that, and goes wonky when you try to save your masterpiece.
   So, if you do a minimal or medium install, you'll want to create that \SCEN
sub-directory in the steel panthers directory,

 Type MD SCEN (and hit enter) from the Steel directory, you will only have to
do this one time (unless you reinstall).

 Matt S.
 SSI
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 243       Tue Oct 03, 1995
J.HEBERT3                    at 18:13 EDT

 The silence here is deafening. Maybe everybody but me got SP and is
 too busy playing to post?
 --- Joe H.
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 244       Tue Oct 03, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 19:52 EDT

ITS IN !!! ITS IN !!! YEA !!! looks Great so far... more later...

Wolfgang

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 245       Tue Oct 03, 1995
P.MEADOWS1 [HardRock]        at 19:56 EDT

 Just picked it up myself at Waldensoftware in NY boonies but it wasn't in
 at EB.
 No time to play now................:(

 Silent Hunter is in a demo CD disk in the latest Strat+ mag...pretty
 amazing graphix/sound!

 I'm sure SP will be good.

 From the one look I had at it I'm seeing a graphix glitch in the
 water..white lines flickering. The land terrain is ok. What say you Matt?
 Is this a common glitch or just my machine? (Tseng 4000 video card).

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 246       Tue Oct 03, 1995
D.WILLIAMS4                  at 20:40 EDT

  It's here got mine monday :)
  Helps to have to sell to SSI :)

  It's great love it!!!

  More later going to play now!!

  Lt Williams Duck! Boom Klag! Need a new lT :(

  Colorado :)
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 247       Tue Oct 03, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 20:45 EDT

Well, if the soundtrack is any indication of the gameplay, this is gonna be
KILLER... And, it does run under Win 95, at least on my setup - its running in
the background right now as I type this message, and I'm cranking the music on
the Bose...

This looks like the game I've been waiting for ever since i lost my Advanced
Squad Leader buddies....

YES ! - (now, all this without any real game play - please forgive me if I
seem a bit out of sorts... the cold hard critique will come later..now its off
to the Polish Front !))

Wolfgang

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 248       Tue Oct 03, 1995
PAS.JPD [Jaded Gamer]        at 22:14 EDT

HardRock -- I've had the same graphics glitch in the water.  In fact, I've run
into a few buglets and odditities.  (Map not scrolling properly, strange hexes
in maps, weird spots in the interface...)

BTW guys, do yourselves a favor and immediately crank the difficulty up to
HARD.

Not to knock SSI, or even Steel Panthers, 'cause it IS fun to play, but it
needs another run through the bit polisher.  The AI needs work, we need LOTS
more info to work with, and these odd little glitches need to be fixed.

(FWIW, I've played about 6-7 scenarios so far...)

Jaded
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 249       Tue Oct 03, 1995
V.MILAN [Vic]                at 22:55 EDT

Oops [envisioning Win95-style graphic of $$$ with wings on them flying from my
wallet to folder marked "SSI"].

Wolfgang => I do look forward to your review of gameplay on this.  I'm trying
hard to convince myself that I don't have _time_ to pick this one up now.
Trying _real_ hard....
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 250       Wed Oct 04, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 15:32 EDT

Hardrock:  Was it the demo or the game which did that.  Try excluding your
video range from EMM386.  If not that, let me know in detail what's happening
in e-mail and we'll see what we can do.

 Vic: Do it, you know you want it :-)

 Matt S.
 SSI
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 251       Wed Oct 04, 1995
C.SCHILLING [Curt]           at 15:59 EDT

        Hi,
        I think I may be the only professional baseball player on this topic
so no bad mouthing the game. (Have'nt we as players and owners done that
enough yet?).
        I'm writing for this reason. I assume there are 'techs from SSI
following this topic and I wanted to let them know I purchased SP this morning
and found a glitch already.
        I played the Tutorial and purchased the units exactly as stated in the
manual. After winning:) the initial Polish scenario I went to the purchase
screen for the second battle. These were my purchases:
        1) 88 Section
        2) Prime Mover
        3) 1 Pz Supp (IVC)
        4) 2x Mortars
        5) 2x Stukas
        6) 1 MG section

        After I finished purchasing these units as support I went to the next
screen and clicked on Human Deploy, The screen froze and started printing code
lines (About 10-15 of them)> I did'nt jot them down but thought you might want
to know this. I have a 486DX4-100 with a 4 Plex CD- Rom 16 Megs RAM and
SoundBlaster AWRE. The game still works fine but I thought you might like to
know this stuff. BTW I'm an Advanced Squad Leader Fanatic and I LOVE Grigsby's
work BUT this is by far the closest think I've seen to it. Great job and tell
him he's got free (IF he wants them!) tix to any Phillies game he can get to.
        Curt Schilling

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 252       Wed Oct 04, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 18:10 EDT

Vic - get it, you won't regret it !

Well after playing thru the tutorial, all I can say is "It was worth the
wait"! Graphics are superb, and the sound is awesome.

One helluva job, Gary !

The jury is out on the AI since it seems that the Poles were hopelessly
outclassed in this scenario, as they should have been I guess.

Some observations and questions:

1. Being used to the LOS rules from mostly board games, I was surprised to
find out that infantry entrenched on a hill were in LOS to a PzIV since they
weren't on the slope hex, but were 1 hex behind the slope line. This was
always a No Los situation in Pz Blits, ASL, etc... How does LOS work here?

2. Terrain effects modifiers would be nice to have. Maybe in a readme file?
 3. I'd like some numbers regarding combat modifiers, range, acquisition of
targets, penetration, movement, etc... I realize that when you right click on
a target you are given a % to hit, but I would like to know what goes into
determining this, as well as what are the odds of penetration when it DOES
hit.
 4. Do infantry suffer any penalty when mounted on an AFV that fires its main
or secondary armament ?
 5. It doesn't _seem_ to cost AFV's any movement points to allow infantry to
mount up. Is this the case ?
 6. Saw some strange quirks on terrain height in the 1st scenario in the
Polish campaign. I was scrolling around the map and in one hex it said "height
5", then the very next hex said "height 0", yet there were no slope or
elevation graphics in the hex. What does this mean ?

7. Apparently, level 0 trees are no hindrance to LOS. Are these bushes or
brush ?

8. Cool effect - tanks can drive right through structures, and you get a
really cool graphic effect as the buidlign is smashed. Do the AFV's run any
risk of immobilization in so doing ?

9. Can AFV's over run infantry or other soft targets ? Couldn't get them to do
it..

10. Can you scrounge abandoned enemy guns or equipment ?

11. If a unit calls arty, then moves, how does this effect the targeting ?

12. Apparently units that are mounted can't attempt a rally. Is this correct?

13. Can fire spread from 1 bldg hex to an adjacent one ? Do infantry or other
units need to pass morale to move into a flaming bldg ?

I'm sure I have more but I can't think of any right now - besides, I'm dying
to get back to the campaign - it is really INCREDIBLE.

Thanks Gary for such an awesome sim.... !!!

"Across the WHAT?????"

Wolfgang

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 253       Wed Oct 04, 1995
J.STEVENSON6 [IKV Sabre]     at 19:08 EDT

SP is GREAT!

BTW, it WILL run under OS/2.

If you need settings, drop me an E-mail, and I'll post them in the library.

JoeS/2

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 254       Wed Oct 04, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 19:28 EDT

Wow! I LOVE this game !!!!

I just finished the first scenario in the 1939 campaign - German assault near
Pozan, objective to secure an important cross road junction for the assaulting
21st Pz Div.

I had to play it twice because the first time thru i was too busy learning the
interface to worry about winning.

Well, the second time thru, I thought I had it. I had rushed my panzers away
from the bridge after securing it, and after a massive artillery and stuka
attack on the town (neat sounds and graphics of bldg's burning and smoke - it
was like something from Dante !) I figured it would be just a waltz down the
road to victory. WRONG. I guess that my tanks had rushed right past some
entrenched Polish infantry dug in along the river bank. I had learned from the
first go round that the Poles would try to counterattack to retake the bridge,
but I thought that they were coming down from the ridge. They were actually
dug in along the river, so this time I stationed a couple armored cars and 2
squads on and around the bridge. Sure enough, about turn 8 or so, this
infantry unit comes out of nowhere and starts to fire on my squad. Cool, say I
- I'll let him taste some Rhine Lead. Then, all of a sudden, a 37mm AT gun on
the hill that I had previously silenced comes to life again. The poles had re-
manned the gun and were taking shots at my armored car !!!

Needless to say, I thought this was way cool and it conjured memories of my
glorious ASL days when that abandoned 88 on the hill managed to have a broken
half squad rally and sneak back up the back of the hill to start chundering on
an American tank column <g>

Man, this game RULES !

Am I the only one playing this ????????????????????????????????


Back to the front - it's on to Warsaw...

Wolfgang

PS: on unit display, AFV's will be listed as buttoned. Does this imply that
they can unbutton to perhaps gain some targeting advantage ???


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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 255       Wed Oct 04, 1995
J.STEVENSON6 [IKV Sabre]     at 19:42 EDT

Is silent hunter a "new-and-improved" version of Silent Service?

Curt Shilling?!??!?
 I would be really thrilled if I still cared about baseball!
 Glad to see you on GEnie.


JoeS/2

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 256       Wed Oct 04, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 20:51 EDT

More questions and observations:

1. What is the difference between pinned, suppressed, and routed ?
 I've looked at different units with varying suppression numbers (which I
thought was sort of the benchmark) and some even after I had rallied them to a
3 or even 2 suppression were still pinned or suppressed. This seems rather
odd, no?

2. When a unit dies, you get some sort of flash about leader replaced. Is the
first leader shown the one that bit the dust and the next one is the one who
replaces him ? Or how does this work ?

3. It sure seems a lot easier to hit infantry targets than it does to hit
vehicular targets. Just the opposite of what an ASL player would expect. As an
ASL player used to always dread the last turn of a scenario when all you had
was 2 Panthers vs. 1 squad of _entrenched_ infantry.... In SP, it's _easier_
to hit infantry than it is to hit AFV's (so it seems)

4. Man, Mines kick ass. I'm still playing Poland 2 (and not wanting to give it
away) but I've already lost 6 AFV's to minefields. Not having looked at the
editor, does the game distinguish between ATM's and anti-personnel mines?

5. If anyone has any tips on minefield removal and detection, I'm all EARS.

6. The leadership structure remains a mystery of sorts. I would like a fuller
definition than what is given in the manual. I went in and changed the
_apparent_ tank commander of tank B2 to Roberts. I went to HQ and the leader
of B was listed as Steiner. I then went to B0, expecting to find Steiner, and
I found someone else !!! More clarification is necessary here..

7. Did I already say that this game KICKS ???

8. Does anyone know where Grigsby is hanging out these days ? Seems he's not
on GEnie much anymore, and I'd like to get these questions and comments in
front of the Master's face...

Wolfgang out,


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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 257       Wed Oct 04, 1995
V.MILAN [Vic]                at 21:05 EDT

Matt => Hey!  Stop that! <g>

Curt => Didn't waste any time starting to enjoy your well-earned vacation, did
you? <g>  Welcome aboard.

[I _do_ still care about baseball.  I'm watching the Braves/Rocks game as I
write.]

Sounds like a nasty bug.  I hope it was just a random hiccup.

Wolfgang => From your list of queries/observations, it looks as if it might
stand another polish.

OTOH...lord, lord, your description of the Polish scenario makes me drool.
Time to bounce off & call Babbage's & Software, Etc....


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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 258       Wed Oct 04, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 21:22 EDT

Also,

I have auto-rally turned on. This, I thought was such that each unit that
could rally would do so to its fullest. Not true, apparently - even with
autorally on, I can still rally some units beyond what they were rallyed to in
the computer's autorally phase. This seems confusing. And further with regard
to rallying and morale, when does the rally take effect ? If a unit is pinned
or routed, and you are able, through rallying, to reduce the suppression level
(I am assuming this is the only factor that you can affect thru rally) by 10
or so, will the unit become unpinned or unrouted _immediately_ ?


I've also noticed a graphics "glitch" in some of the river hexes - this rather
harmless yet annoying bug causes a white "flash" to hit the screen
sporadically. Not fatal, but hard on the eyes. Just confirmed this with a
friend of mine, and it's happend to me both in DOS and WIN95...

Wolfgang

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 259       Wed Oct 04, 1995
P.POMERANTZ1 [Phil]          at 21:38 EDT

Wolfgang,
 I am waiting for a new computer before getting this puppy, as my current
system won't handle it.
 Was there a 21st Pz division in the Invasion of Poland? I thought there were
only 10 Panzer Divs then, and 4 of them were Light Divisions (7-10). The 21st
Pz Div was not formed as such until summer 1940 in North Africa.
 Phil
 (still an active ASL player; we have PBEM for those with no local opponents).


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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 260       Wed Oct 04, 1995
PAS.JPD [Jaded Gamer]        at 22:07 EDT

Wolfgang -- My problem with the game is one that you're having, but you
haven't realized it yet.  In one day of playing, you've had 21 very good, very
real questions about the game.  The manual doesn't tell us enough.
F'rinstance, have you realized that no where are the various weapon strengths
quantified?

I've seen a few of those weird height hexes, too.  In the 2nd scenario of the
Polish campaign, there's a height 15 swamp hex surrounded by height 0 hexes.
Just a big 'ol pillar of swamp.  Imagine my irritation when I set up my 88's
on a hilltop, and that pillar blocked their view!

A few questions I can answer off the top of my head.  AFV can become
immobilized in collapsed buildings, and they get no sort of defensive bonus
for being in there.

There's no way to overrun infantry.  On the other hand, there's no way to
order an infantry unit to withold some of their weapons.  Nothing more
frustrating than sending an infantry unit towards a pillbox, and having it use
its only satchel charge on another infantry unit!!

You can't scrounge abandoned guns or equipment, which doesn't seem fair, since
as you've seen, they can come back to it.  Also, when equipment is abandoned,
it still counts in the "enemies seen" listing.

Buttoned tanks take a hit to their spotting chance.  Always good to open fire
on a AFV to button it up before you send in another infantry unit to assault.

"Pinned" status doesn't seem related to suppression levels.  High suppression
causes loss of shots, and the potential of having to retreat or become routed.
Units which are retreating (I'm a bit hazy here) will still use opportunity
fire.  Routed units just flee.  You can rally retreating and routed units and
possibly regain control of them.

Best way I've found to handle mines is to move engineer units into the hex and
just leave them there.  At the start of each turn, there's a chance they'll
clear the mindfield.  Or, you can bring along a Sherman Crab or 'dozer tank.
Same applies to Dragon's Teeth, which prohibit movement of tanks and slow
infantry to 1 hex/turn.

Leaders are hard to pin down.  You have the overall force leader, each
formation has a leader (in the 0 unit) and each unit has a leader.  The
abilities of your leaders have a profound effect on your units, but its still
no clear to me exactly how.  F'rinstance, you'll find two adjacent units will
have a % chance to hit of 0% and 99%.  The reason (I am told) is that one made
its leader's ability roll, and the other didn't.  Now, assuming a unit is next
to both force and formation units, exactly which leader affects it... this is
still unclear to me.

Also, when rallying, the rally attempt starts with the highest ranking leader
in range.  If he fails, it drops to the next, and then the lowest (if all
three are in range (5 hexes)).  What is important to understand is that once a
leader has failed in a rally attempt, he can't attempt to rally any more units
in that turn.  So think about which unit needs rallying first, and as an
aside, keep your formation together.

==========
 In general, I'm having a blast playing this game, but it still has some
really rough edges.  SSI is going to have to put out a patch, and/or some more
hard data.  And the AI needs to be bumped up.  It isn't so much that it fights
poorly as much as that it doesn't seem to go after objective hexes as much as
it should.  I've had battles that ended with both forces severely beat up, and
have still won like 1000-50.

There ya go, now you don't need to buy the Dec. S+ with my review in it.  It
was actually tough to write, since I came up with logs of little problems, but
still couldn't ignore the fact that I was having a great time playing it.  A
call to the AP provided some information, and once he pointed it out, a lot of
my questions were addressed in the manual and readme file, but you have to
really read them carefully, and you'll get general answers, and not specifics.

Jaded


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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 261       Wed Oct 04, 1995
R.ROBBERSON1 [Highlander]    at 22:11 EDT

Actually, Curt, you should drop out of professional baseball, and become a
professional wargamer. Not nearly as much criticism to face and I guarantee
that you will have a lot more fun. Of course, your agent will be having
fits...:-)

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 262       Wed Oct 04, 1995
PAS.JPD [Jaded Gamer]        at 22:16 EDT

Wolfgang -- Rally works immediately in certain aspects: ie, you can get moves
or shots back immediately.  But I've never seen a unit become unrouted or stop
retreating within a game turn.

The auto-rally works at the END of the turn.  So, if you rally all your troops
until all your leaders have failed and can no longer rally, then nothing will
happen in the auto-rally phase.  At least, thats what is supposed to happen.
I've never actually tested this, myself.

Jaded

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 263       Wed Oct 04, 1995
B-MAX [slvrhillaero]         at 22:25 EDT

The GAME is wonderful........... BUt he MANUAL.

A DISGRACE!!!!

It does give the barest information on playing, but seems poorly organized and
even teh illustrations and screen shots are small and muddy.

Printed only on ceap paper it looks more like a xeroxed pamphlet than a
manual.

Obviously designed in such a way that a Prima strategy guide with all the
missing data included is going to be needed.

A few years back SSI manuals got REALLY bad and there was a tremendous outcry
from the customers so they cleaned up theri act. This one is even worse! SSI
will probably skate by on this since the game itself is so good.

What next for Silent Hunter, mimeographed on three sheets of toile paper?

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 264       Wed Oct 04, 1995
C.SCHILLING [Curt]           at 22:50 EDT

        Vic,
        Problem cropped up again in the same situation. Different purchase
units but screen again froze and started tyoing some code. Both times it was
after purchasing German support units and trying to exit off the screen.
        Game is pretty cool though.
        BTW I've noticed something a little familiar with my first love (ASL).
The Raate Road?? Walawbum?? On the Munda Trail??? I love it!!!
        Having fun just wish the game would'nt freeze up on me.
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 265       Wed Oct 04, 1995
J.WETHERELL [TexinPA]        at 23:12 EDT

Hi Curt...Welcome to the group. Although I never played ASL I did, way back in
my youth, play the original SL.  Hope you can make it to AvalonCon someday.
(maybe they will hold it during the off season sometime.)

I think SP is a fabulous game.

Thanks for your comments and insights.

Regards,

TexinPA :<)=

I'm here near Harrisburg...home of the SENATORS.

T.
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 266       Wed Oct 04, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 23:34 EDT

Jaded,

Glad you're in the topic. Now, to re-address, perhaps somewhat more clearly,
some of my questions...


1. Overrunning infantry - bummer... But since Gary eked out 22 versions of
Pacwar, perhaps this is something that will be addressed <g> - same for
scrounging <ASL nod of the head..>

2. Regarding the "buttoned" tanks - ok - buttoned tanks take a hit to their
spotting chance. But since there is a differentiation between buttoned and
unbuttoned, then there should be a way to "unbutton" tanks, n'est-ce pas ?

3. Regarding mines - you say that the best way to handle them is by moving
engineer units into the hexes. I kinda figured that, but, these mines seem to
have a life like the energizer bunny. First, you can't tell where they are
(makes sense I guess), second, I kinda thought that after I had one or 2 AFV's
move into the mined  hexes that they would have lost their effectiveness.
Apparently not. So, the thing to do is, _once_ you find a mined hex, move
engineers into it and wait...right ?

4. Regarding rallyng - As I stated, I am using autorally. So, if what you are
saying is correct, the units are being rallyed at the end of the turn. So when
I am hitting RALLY during the next turn, I am merely "robbing" my leaders of
the opportunity of "auto-rallying" at the end of the current turn. If this is
the case, and if as you say rally works immediately, then it would seem that
auto-rally is rather a detriment, eg., your troops COULD benefit from a rally,
but if you are on autorally it won't occur til the END of the turn. However,
if you manually RALLY them, since it works immediately, then you stand to
benefit from whatever the rally effort achieves.

Has the LOS rules confused anyone else but me ??? What exactly is a "height 0
tree" ???

....and ditto all the other 21 questions that I have asked...

What service is Gary on these days ?? I thought that us true grognards on
GEnie had his allegiance...but perhaps he has taken the same route as Norm -
went on to faster and "better" pastures...

I do _love_ this game, but these questions need to be answered. And
especially, the poor manual needs to be addressed. We need some cold, hard
data with regard to penetration, effects of moving on firing, etc, etc...

WOlfgang

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 267       Wed Oct 04, 1995
M.KENNEDY20 [MAK]            at 23:39 EDT

Well it looks like its about time to get those 4 extra megs of RAM... and one
game.


MAK
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 268       Thu Oct 05, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 08:57 EDT

Wolfgang,

1. there is no 'overrun attack' pre se. The 'overrun effect' is acheived by
moving an AFV adjacent to an infantry squad and then blasting it. The squad
will usually pull back and the AFV can pass through the vacated hex.

2. when vehicles 'button up' they do so as a result of the suppression points
they have gained.  they will unbutton during the morale phase at the end of
the turn if their suppression has been reduced sufficiently.

3. each mine symbol represents 10 mines. when a mine explodes the minefield is
reduced by one. when minefield clearing is attempted the minefield may be
reduced by a few mines OR there is a chance that a PATH IS CLEARED through the
minefield and this causes it to be removed completely.

4. auto-rally is useful because it always remembers to rally the units that
you forgot to rally during the orders phase. there is no disadvantage to using
both manual and auto-rally in the same game.

5. all trees in the game have a height of 2 (20 meters) over ground level. the
height shown for each hex IS the ground level.

Gary
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 269       Thu Oct 05, 1995
J.ALLEN2 [Gatsby]            at 11:03 EDT

Gary:

You did it again.... I've been waitin g all summer for this one. Well probably
all my wargaming life...Oh God 30 years.. Loads of questions but this is what
i have been looking forward to...

One disappointment though... I shouldn't be allowed to purchase certain units
in certain periods of time... Ie 88's in 39...But maybe this is addressed in
the manual which I haven't really studied... Any way great...I'm very worried
about my 500 dollars or so of ASL stuff becoming redundant...
 John
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 270       Thu Oct 05, 1995
M.MARTINO [JAY]              at 19:06 EDT

Gatsby,
        I think the 88 was around in '39, even though no-one realized it's
potential as an AT gun yet.

        I can't get downtown 'till tomorrow! Wah! I hope there're some still
in stock. There was a message on my machine from the store, but they asked if
I wanted it reserved! I thought I'd made that point when I asked about it last
week.

        Jay
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 271       Thu Oct 05, 1995
M.SZARKA [Mike]              at 19:19 EDT

Is SP PBEM-friendly?

Mike
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 272       Thu Oct 05, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 19:46 EDT

Gary,

Thanks for the response. That clears a few things up. With regard to the
terrain, it seems that sometimes trees block LOS and sometimes they don't.
Also, the hex elevations are somewhat unclear. Does 1 elevation mean 10
meters, 10 means 100, etc ?

What are the beneficial effects of defending in various terrain types ?

At what point does a unit that has rallyed to a respectable suppression level
become "unpinned" or "unrouted" ?

I am certain that I have seen some "level 5" (50 meters?) elevation clear
hexes in the middle of what appears to be a flat section of terrain. I think
Jaded or someone on here can confirm this as well. Is this a glitch ?

What ? No Barbaross campaign ?? Surely there will be an expansion, right ?

I have found no reference to being able to "link" scenarios to form a
campaign. Is it possible that this ability will be made available in any
future patches/products ?

Thanks again for an _outstanding_ game !!

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 273       Thu Oct 05, 1995
PAS.JPD [Jaded Gamer]        at 19:57 EDT

Wolfgang -- Well, by now you've heard it from the master, but I'll add a
thought or two regarding rallying...

Assume in a given turn a unit gets suppressd.  Watch you "shots" value, it
often goes down.  If you can manually rally them during your turn, you may get
those shots back, which you can either use immediately, or save for
opportunity fire.

If you depend on auto-rally, you won't get those shots back to use in the
current turn.

OTOH, you don't want to haphazardly rally every unit manually.  Say a unit has
0 shots left and comes under fire and gets suppressed.  Now, you try to rally
it.  The Major fails, the Lt. fails, and Sargent fails.  You move to the next
unit, which has 4 shots left when it triggers opportunity fire.  It gets
suppressed and its shots drop to 0.  So again, you try to rally.  Well, since
the major and lt. have already failed a rally attempt, they aren't checked, so
you get just one person (the sargent of this unit) trying to rally this unit.

IOW, you have to be selective about the order in which you rally.

While I'm tossing out random hints, if you just use Next Unit, Next Unit to
move through your troops, you'll always be leading with the ?0 units, which
contain your leaders.  Don't!  Much better to move backwards through them, so
that the leaders are last to move, and thus least likely to draw op fire. I
played Omaha Beach as the Americans at Hard and won 800-200.  I think the
biggest reason why was that I held leaders back, and sent the grunts in to
take on pillboxes and such (not to mention the awesome power of the US Navy
shore bombardment!).  I lost almost no leaders in that game.

Gary Grigsby -- THANK YOU for showing up.  This little bit of info on how
minefields work is EXACTLY the stuff hardcore gamers want/need to know.  I'd
love to hear more from you.  In fact, I'd love to publish an article or two
full of this stuff, if you're interested (leave me an email if you are).

When you think about the patch, like Wolfgang said, think about letting us
scrounge weapons.  Also, it'd be nice to be able to order a unit to withold
some weapons.

Also, I'd almost kill to understand a bit better exactly how a leader
influences his troops in regards to his attack abilities.  For instance, is it
only the highest ranking leader in range that matters, or is it all of them?
What sorts of equations are being run through behind the scenes? That kind of
thing.

I'd like to see a table of attack strengths of the various platforms.

In short, give us more data!  Lots more data!!!!  With that, and with all of
us playing the game and pointing out tiny buglets, this game could become an
all time classic.

Jaded

aka Peter Smith
 Strategy Plus Magazine
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 274       Thu Oct 05, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 21:03 EDT

Jaded,

Good post - thanks for the tips on the backward rotation for units. I had
already been doing it that way, though. Years of ASL have taught me to keep my
leaders out of harms way <g>. I have assembled an All-GEnie team with leaders
edited to duplicate some of the more active posters here... If I have
forgotten anyone, forgive me - but at least you won't get killed <g>.

Regarding the fact that there are no weapons data. I just figured out what you
mean - eg, I was looking at the stats for a PZ-IV - the HE figure, I _thought_
was some sort of abstract weapons factor. But actually its the number of
rounds! So what the heck does the 75HE round in a PZ-IV do ? I have a pretty
good idea based upon my SL experience, as well as other gaming systems, but
I'd sure like to know what it does in SP. I hope we don't have to wait for
Prima or one of the other after market (read: what should have been included
in the game but wasn't) publishers to put toghether unit data
tables...<grrrrr...>

Granted, it's not absolutely crucial to know this kind of stuff for the
_average_ gaming customer. Matter of fact, these are the kinds of people who
might even be overwhelmed by the data. But for those of us who eat this kind
of stuff up, it sure would be _nice_.

Has anyone played around with the scenario editor yet ?

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 275       Thu Oct 05, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 21:36 EDT

Here's something thats rather odd.

I go to the HQ menu. This shows a Lt. Kriehl as the formation leader for tank
platoon D. Fine. Now, if he is the formation leader, where is he ? Is he in
one of the tanks, or is he somewhere else ? Thinking that it would be logical
if he were actually in one of the tanks, and probably D0, I went to D0 on the
map and got the data - it was a Sgt. Peiper. Now, how does this work ?

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 276       Thu Oct 05, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 21:44 EDT

Gary, Jaded,

Got your points about which units to rally in a very convincing way. I moved
an engineer squad into a stone bldg. Behind the bldg was a polish squad that
promptly ruined my day. I guess the Poles got a lucky shot and killed 2 men
right away. My guys had a suppression level of 15. They went into retreat
mode. I noticed that they had some shots depleted as a result of the enemy
fire. I figured they were a good candidate for immediate rally, since they
hadn't fired yet. I ralled them successfully several times, down to a
suppression of 2. Their missing shots returned. But, they were still in
headlong retreat. It would seem that rallying to this level should change
their status from retreat to, say, stationary. What gives ?

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 277       Thu Oct 05, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 22:06 EDT

Wolfgang,

1. the formation leader for platoon D will be attached to the D0 unit.
   the D0 unit will also have a squad/vehicle/gun leader that will effect only
that squad/vehicle/gun.

2. rallying is used to reduce suppression but it will not immediately effect a
unit's morale state.  the morale state may only be improved during the morale
phase at the end of the turn.  of course the morale state is completely
dependant on the suppression level of the unit so if suppression is reduced
the morale state will eventually improve.

Gary
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 278       Thu Oct 05, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 22:26 EDT

Everybody,

 Let me begin with a disclaimer -- I am still waiting for my complimentary
copy of SP, so I'm not sure how the release version may differ from the last
beta I worked on (probably not significantly);  also I was never asked to
review or even saw a copy of the rules manual so if it's bad don't blame me.

 1>  LOS problems - SP has very "liberal" LOS rules that often cause units
that would be hidden in other games to be visible in this one.  Safest bet is
to check your LOS when deploying units and assume any hex you can see can see
you also.

 2>  Terrain modifiers, combat formulas, etc.  --  You mean they didn't
include these in the rules manual?!? What is SSI coming to?  Hopefully Gary
will post them for you, in the meantime if you have the old PANZER STRIKE or
TYHPOON OF STEEL games the formulas in those games served as the basis for the
SP formulas and modifiers.

 3>  I wanted infantry to dismount when their carrier fired but that never
made it in the game;  infantry will dismount if the carrier is fired on even
if the firer misses.

 4>  Yes it costs no movement points to mount up and even "pinned" units can
mount up

 5>  Height discrepancies  --  Some scenarios may have been designed before
final map art was in the game and this could account for weird heights being
reported.  I honestly don't recall ever seeing this problem in DYO scenarios.

 6>  I don't know what is meant by level 0 trees, suggest you consult the map
editor to see if they are actually trees.

 7>  AFVs can be immobilized by driving through buildings however Gary tells
me that the chance of this was greatly reduced in the final release version.

 8>  "Overruns" do occur in SP but not in a "physical" sense.  By that I mean
that there are special rules for 1 hex combat that in effect amount to an
overrun but the attacking AFV doesn't actually enter the enemy hex.

 9>  You can't use enemy equipment.

 10>  Indirect fire is not effected by the spotter moving provided it
maintains a LOS to the target hex.

 11>  Units that are mounted don't rally because the program "thinks" their
not on the map.

 12>  Fires do not spread (smoke does drift).  Units can enter a burning hex
but incur suppression points if they remain in the hex.

 13>  The normal state for AFVs is unbuttoned.  When buttoned they have a
restricted LOS and can't fire AAMGs.

 14>  Alright this is complicated but I'll try to explain the morale system.
When units take fire they incur  suppression points.  The more suppression
points a unit has, the more likely it is to degrade to a lower state of
effectiveness in the following order --  pinned (can't move but can still fire
normally) -- retreating (heading to the rear but can still opportunity fire)  -
-  routed (running for your life) -- surrender (as good as killed but more
humiliating).  AFVs button up instead of pinning and never rout or surrender.
Enough suppression points can cause a unit to "skip" steps in this process
(e.g. going straight from normal to surrendered).  High morale ratings canhelp
prevent units from degrading below pinned/buttoned.  Suppression points also
reduce a unit's ROF.  Rallying reduces suppression points and allows a unit to
improve its state (e.g. going from retreating to pinned) but not till the next
turn.  This isn't a complete answer but it gives you some idea of what's going
on.

 15>  I am pretty sure its the "new" leaders that are displayed when leaders
are replaced.

 16>  Infantry are being attacked with "area" weapons while AFVs must be hit
directly to be effected.  If a 75mm AT round plows into the ground 5 feet from
a tank, it did nothing.  If a 75mm HE round lands 5 feet from an exposed
infantryman, it's going to ruin his whole day.

 17>  Mines are Mines are Mines.  No difference between AP and AT mines.

 18>  Clearing mines?  To paraphase a song, "that's what engineers are for".
Engineers clear mines and dragons teeth by being in or adjacent to their hexes
continuously for a random number of turns.  Engineer AFVs will also clear
mines the same way.

 19>  Every formation has a leader and every unit has a leader.  Be careful
your changing the right one.

 Finally a personal note to Curt Schilling -- My 9 year old "sports nut" son
was blown away to discover that you played nerdy wargames like his old man.
Maybe the next time the Phillies are in Pittsburgh, we'll come down to the
ball park and say hello.  I hope you enjoy SP as much as I enjoyed helping
Gary with it.

 Jim Wirth
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 279       Thu Oct 05, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 23:50 EDT

Gary and Jim,     Thanks a lot for the info!!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 280       Fri Oct 06, 1995
C.SCHILLING [Curt]           at 00:37 EDT

        Jim,
        Tell your son I said hello. IF Pittsburgh (BIG IF) still has the
Pirates next year please do look me up. Are you an ASL'er?? If so I'd love to
play if I have time when were in town. ASL'ers can always get free tix from me
for a little FTF match.
        Curt
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 281       Fri Oct 06, 1995
R.GURSKE1 [bob]              at 00:54 EDT

The Yankee/Seattle game tonight was amazing. Fans may be disgusted but they're
playing from great games.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 282       Fri Oct 06, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 07:39 EDT

Curt,

 Sorry but I gave up on ASL (and board wargames in general) when the second
generation of computer wargames came out (i.e. around the time of
KAMPFGRUPPE).  However I would be glad to FTF SP with you when you come to
town (assuming we HAVE a team).  BTW, crash bugs like the one you mentioned
plagued the game throughout development.  When Gary sent me my last beta he
assured me it was crash proof whereupon I promptly found a way to crash it.  I
know SSI will take another shot at this problem with version 1.1, but don't
hold your breath about the problem ever being permanently fixed.  If you have
any other problems/questions, please fire them up here and I will try to
answer them or get an answer from Gary.  Have fun!

 Jim Wirth
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 283       Fri Oct 06, 1995
J.WESTPHAL [Joel]            at 20:12 EDT

 As to Overrunning infantry.I was at Gen Con this year and playtested the
 the game there.That was one of the first things I noticed about the game.I
told J.Billings about it and the other SSI designers.To tell you the truth I
think they completely forgot about AFV overruns.They said they would put that
on there to do list and tell Gary.Well they must have forgot to tell him:)
 I would suspect that they will included AFV overruns in a update or patch,I
hope.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 284       Fri Oct 06, 1995
J.STEVENSON6 [IKV Sabre]     at 21:02 EDT

G Grigsby!
 the master speaks!
 We're not worthy! ::effacing myself in the prescence of wargaming greatness::
 GREAT game! (goes w/o saying).
 Did a check, you programmed the biggest percentage of games I've purchased,
by a WIDE margin.  Keep up the great work.
 I wish you had made an IBM version of NorthAtlantic'86 and Reforger'88

Wolfgang,

stop playing SP and finish the MegaWir turn!

JoeS/2
 ::Comrade Sabre/2::
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 285       Fri Oct 06, 1995
J.STEVENSON6 [IKV Sabre]     at 21:25 EDT

Curt,

well, I'm not TOO far from Pitts (Buffao is only 3 1/2 hours away).
 I'll have to dig it out of the closet....

JoeS/2

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 286       Fri Oct 06, 1995
J.HEBERT3                    at 21:49 EDT

 Is the repair/upgrade screen explained anywhere in the manual? I found
 two mentions but no explanation. SP's manual now holds the Worst Manual
 in my personal collection award, having passed the previous #1, Master
 of Orion. As a technical writer, I'm driven crazy when something
 obvious (like a whole screen) gets left out. I've seen writers fired
 for this. Good thing the game is so incredible.

 Is there any way to see the map for the upcoming scenario before you
 buy units? Am I the only one that would find this helpful?

 Gary and Jim, I echo the thanks for your answers and support. And thanks
 Gary for SP.
 --- Joe H.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 287       Fri Oct 06, 1995
PAS.JPD [Jaded Gamer]        at 22:48 EDT

One point in addition to what Jim Wirth said.  While AFV's won't rout or
retreat, if the suppression level gets high enough, the crew WILL abandon
their vehicles and run!  I remember when I was playing the "Stinging the Bear"
scenario, I had an infantry unit assault a tank (which reminds me of a
question).  It failed and had no moves to get away.  I sent a second infantry
unit in to assault.  It too failed, and again had no MP to get away.  "Dang!"
I said, "Those two units are history that close to that tank."  Imagine my
surprise when, during the computer's turn, the crew just bailed out and ran,
leaving a perfectly good tank sitting in the road!!!  I love stuff like this!

Now to that question.  When an infantry assaults, it uses up all its shots and
takes 15 suppression points if it fails the assault.  What I want to know is,
do the # of shots left when the infantry tries to assault have any impact on
the chance it has of success.  What I generally do is fire all but one shot at
other units before trying the assualt.  That way I don't lose any shots.  But
does this lessen my chance of success?

Also, I can't put a finger on this, but it seems like sometimes infantry will
simply shoot at an AFV 1 hex away, rather than assaulting it.  What determines
this? (Or am I starting to imagine things?)

Jaded

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 288       Fri Oct 06, 1995
PAS.JPD [Jaded Gamer]        at 22:52 EDT

Joe H.  -- As someone who arrived at a battle scene with no barges, and a huge
river to cross to my objective... no, you are not the only one who wishes he
could get some recon of the map while buying support units....

Jaded

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 289       Fri Oct 06, 1995
J.PORTER [Tombstone]         at 23:13 EDT

  I just ran into a frustrating bug. I was in the middle of the first de-
 fensive Polish scenario (with me as the Germans) & saved it off to play
 later. Upon loading the game back, I noticed the number of turns for the
 scenario went from the original 12 to 26. I played to turn 12 & the scenario
 ends giving me the score & the next mission briefing. After clicking on
 continue, the screen goes to back to a menu screen with no option for con-
 tinuing the campaign. Pain in the arse! I guess somehow the save game file
 got corrupted.

  I'm having fun with this game but it still seems pretty flaky. I've had
 other mishaps as well including with a couple of crashes. Sure wish it was
 more stable :(

              "Tombstone"

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 290       Fri Oct 06, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 23:47 EDT

Jaded,     This assault by Inf on AFV is an Attack Hex With Direct Fire (p.27)
from an adjacent hex?? Thanks!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 291       Sat Oct 07, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 01:10 EDT

More questions:

1. Do non-turreted AFV's suffer any penalty for firing outside their arc ?

2. Is there a terrain modifier for height advantage ?

3. The manual mentioned that open topped AFV's are not as strong defensively
as regular AFVs. Does this apply to all types of fire ?



Just watched Cross of Iron again. That movie KICKS. It is, in my opinion, the
best war movie ever filmed.

Got me in the mood for some Eastern front action...I'm off to Kursk....



"I think that God is a Sadist...and he doesn't know it.."

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 292       Sat Oct 07, 1995
V.MILAN [Vic]                at 01:28 EDT

Not having found the game yet [& hoping to get it for less than $60, candidly]
I think it's a testimonial that, even amidst the lengthiest catalogue of
glitches & beefs, everybody takes time out to rave about how great the _game_
is.  Needless to say, I hope the problems get patched soon.

Curt => I got disgusted when AH suddenly went to ASL from SL.  I already had a
fair amount of money tied up in the original system, & was annoyed by certain
changes made [such as reducing the firepower of American paratrooper units so
they wouldn't overshadow German units quite so much, reality & the BAR
notwithstanding]. So I've never done ASL, & this days don't do much paper
gaming at all except RPGs.

Ah, well.  I hope you _don't_ visit Albuquerque as a player.  Not for a long
time, anyway <g>.  As a tourist, that's a different thing....
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 293       Sat Oct 07, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 01:52 EDT

Jaded,

AFVs will retreat or rout if their suppression is high enough.
 If an AFV is immobilized and it's suppression exceeds the level required to
retreat, then the crew will abandon the vehicle and the crew will retreat.

Infantry may only assault an adjacent vehicle if it starts with a suppression
level less than 6, otherwise the infantry will only fire at the vehicle.

Gary

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 294       Sat Oct 07, 1995
J.EVANS10 [JohnnyREB]        at 02:26 EDT

Just bought this today. The music is really COOL! So are the sound effects. I
really like the arty bombardment.

I've noticed a couple of things (minor) so far. Going into the weapons
encyclopedia, there is no profile picture of the Hs129, just text. Clicking on
He111h and then Hs129 shows the same top view a/c. Same thing with the P40 and
P39. No big deal. The grammar sucks I've noticed. Missing words, etc. No big
deal either.

I think I'm gonna have to read the manual, what there is of it, before I start
playing again. I had no idea what I was doing in the game.

REB


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 295       Sat Oct 07, 1995
DONDO                        at 12:01 EDT

Couple o' comments....

Uhm, am I the only one here that feels this is awfully similar to PG?  It sure
doesn't have the feel of a Grigsby game in terms of depth.

I agree the manual is incredibly sub par.

How come when I attack a tank from both the front and rear, I get messages
about stuff bouncing off the front armor?

I too had the "save bug" where a game with four turns left suddenly had 20+
turns left.  However, after playing the four turns actually remaining, it did
end.

Some were wondering about how much computer this would need.  Running with
486/66 and 8 megs, absolutely no problems.  It *is* a strategy game, after
all.

If you have played a game, and then go to the map editor, all the parts from
the game are on the map.  Even when you generate a new map, of a different
size.  Is there any way to clear the map?

The AI is indeed weak, but that is no longer a surprize.  I suspect that it
must be much more difficult to write good AI for a tactical game as opposed to
a strategic game...

Bottom line to date:  Beautifully rendered, fun to play, but somehow I was
expecting more...

==Dondo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 296       Sat Oct 07, 1995
M.HEIDAL [Viking]            at 12:26 EDT


  Boy, my mouth is really watering for this one.  Called Egghead
 yesterday morning and no PS.  Called today at 2pm and PS is sold
 out already!





--Mike
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 297       Sat Oct 07, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 12:30 EDT

Just finished the tutorial and 'After the Battle' (p.20), no opportunity was
given to review either side's units. Then it jumped straight to the
'Change/Repair' screen without a 'Campaign Summary' (p.21). Then into the next
scenario without a chance to save the game. Also I only get music during the
game's introductory video. Sound effects are working OK.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 298       Sat Oct 07, 1995
D.WOODARD5 [DougW]           at 13:41 EDT

Gary Norman,

I am experiencing the same problems. Music (no big deal) and no chance to
continue a campagin. Maybe they are just real short campagins (1 game). <g>

I would beg to differ that this is similar to PG. Morale, smoke, surpression
come to mind. I swamped the Poles on the tutoriol (800+ to 10). Reserving
judgement on the AI as it seems to be tradition in the wargame market to start
with a German rout of the Poles.

One small quibble about the deployment screen. Am I missing something of is it
diffult to adjust a unit once you have gone by it. I mean I can see it but
have to move mouse over it to get ID, then go through units or formations to
select it. Either that or go to the Roster. Rather be able to CTR click or
something.

Overall a excellent game.

Oh yes the manual. Can someone explain this sentance from page 18.

"Basically, the leader's "Armor" rating can lower this number, not change it,
and possibly double it depending on his "Armor" value and how well the chance
to hit is."

Doug
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 299       Sat Oct 07, 1995
J.YONELUNAS [Grimace]        at 13:48 EDT

Everyone:

I have this need to rally "loaded" units, those on tanks, etc.....
 I can't do it without unloading them first and then reloading them....
 Anyone found a way yet?

Viking:

If you remember we live in the same state, sort of close to each other.  I got
the last copy my local Egghead had.....
 DO NOT PAY MORE THAN $40.00 for it....that's what I got it for.  And if I
remember... you deserve the game more than I, since I consider myself a
"casual" player of war games.

                        J.Yonelunas
                        aka Grimace

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 300       Sat Oct 07, 1995
J.YONELUNAS [Grimace]        at 14:01 EDT

DougW:

I can understand that sentence only in the context of the entire paragraph. If
you start to read it from the previous sentence...."For example, if a tank
targets an enemy tank and the current hit chance displayed on screen is 69%,
then this is the BASE chance to hit the enemy tank."  The next sentence states
in my own words, that the leaders armor RATING can lower this BASE chance to
hit.  That BASE chance to hit could double (138%?) depending on the leaders
armor VALUE.

Do leaders have an armor RATING and armor VALUE?
 Can I really get a 138% chance to hit a target?

(I think the writer should have stated...."Up to a maximum of 99% or
100%"....or something to that effect.

                        J.Yonelunas
                        aka Grimace

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 301       Sat Oct 07, 1995
C.SCHILLING [Curt]           at 15:20 EDT

        Vic,
        Sure wish you'd stuck with it. The newer system is fantastic.
        Good Luck
        Curt

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 302       Sat Oct 07, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 15:52 EDT

DougW,     Click on a unit and you can redeploy it. Grimace,     Mounted units
can't rally (not "on the map").
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 303       Sat Oct 07, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 17:33 EDT

DONDO,

 If you've just finished a game and want to build a map for a new game, exit
game completely first.

 Gary Norman,

 Be careful at the end of a campaign game not to hit return to many times,
that's probably what happened when you missed the opportunity to see the
score/opposing side; there is no save until after you repair/select support
for next battle.  I think music is working properly but my betas never
 had music so it's only a guess.

 Doug W,

 Put cursor over your unit then click right mouse button to access it.

 Grimace,

 Hit chances can exceed 100% because there are counteracting modifiers as
well.

 Wolfgang,

 1>  To my knowledge, there is no modifier for non-turreted AFVs firing
outside their arc of fire
 (ie turning to face target) but like everyone else I've never seen the
formulas.

 2>  Yes, units on slopes/hilltops if higher than enemy can get hull down
advantage and also have improved chance of getting a top hit on lower enemy.

 3> Yes, open topped AFVs are generally more vulnerable to everything.

 Jim Wirth
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 304       Sat Oct 07, 1995
J.YONELUNAS [Grimace]        at 18:06 EDT

Gary:

Mounted units should be able to rally, that's my point.  If the enemy can
knock them off thier mounts if they are "not on the map", I should be able to
rally them......

Mr. Grigsby:

Couple things to add to the list.....

1)  During the start of a campain, I should be told if I will be getting
support units to "purchase".  This will/would help me in purchasing Core
units.

2)  The music should have a volume setting just like the sound effects.  I
turned off the music because it "overplayed" the sound effects even when they
were set on high (#5).

3)  When the music is on, it will drop out, especialy on the "purchase" screen
when the mouse goes over another button.  (I am not using the Microsoft 9.x
only have 8.x).

4)  Someone stated before that we need a map before we start a scenerio to
"purchase" the proper equipment.  Well, we do.

5)  Be able to rally units that are loaded onto other vehicles.

6)  We need a way of designating a unit "inactive".  i.e. when moving units
the "next unit" button will always bring up every unit, even though I
know/knew I didn't want it to move/shoot and further.

I have not had a chance to get into the meat of this game, but it is a winner!
Alot of what I mentioned is cosmetic only, the game play (besides some of the
problems mentioned by others) is pretty good.

                        J.Yonelunas
                        aka Grimace
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 305       Sat Oct 07, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 19:55 EDT

Gary or Jim or someone,

I've noticed that armored units have both a hull and a turret armor rating.
This implies to me that facing may depend on which direction the turret or
hull is facing. Is this the case ?

Do non-turreted AFV's suffer any penalty in changing firing arc ?

Regarding the fact that you can't see the battle map before purchasing units.
This creates some big problems, as has been alluded to already. Imagine the
situation in which you are to cross a river where there is no bridge and you
fail to take barges or rafts simply because you are not aware of the fact that
a river must be crossed. This is _not_ good...

In the manual it says something to this effect: rallied tank crews can be
loaded back into their abandoned AFV's - how is this achieved ?

Still enjoying the HELL out of this one... I'm surprised there isn't more
traffic here. I think it might be a problem of distribution. At my local EB,
the day it came in they only had THREE copies. I got the second one....

Situation: Sgt. Wolfgang, in his Pz-IVc is on the road to Warsaw. It's Sept
12, 1939 and these are my orders:

6th Pz Division has crossed the Bsura river and is advancing toward Modlin.
Intelligence reports that new Polish units have arrived to stiffen their
front. Your orders are to sopit the Polish advance from joining their comrades
in Warsaw. You are to hold 2 imporant hills that bar the way to Warsaw. Mixed
elements of the 8th tank Bn and 16th Cav reg. will lead the Polish attack.
Failure may result in a prolonged siege of Warsaw.
 --------------------------------------------

If any of you are lurking and wondering whether or not to get this one, lurk
no longer. This is definitely the strategy (tactical actually) game of the
YEAR !!!!


Wolfgang


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 306       Sat Oct 07, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 20:32 EDT

I just played my first defensive battle. I set my troops all up and then hit
the auto-entrench button. When I went into the first turn after deploying, I
checked around and none of the troops were dug in - they were merely
"positioned".

More discrepancies, more non sequiturs, but I still love this game...


Wolfgang

PS: because I know that since Grigsby wrote it, that it _will_ be fixed. Thats
why I buy anything that he does sight-unseen...


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 307       Sat Oct 07, 1995
C.MACHLAN [Curtis]           at 20:40 EDT

All,

 Let me start off by saying that I am in no way affiliated with Spectrum
Electronics.  I am just a satisfied customer.

 Anyone wanting this one but can't find any local stores that have it?  Look
no further.  I ordered my copy of it Thursday from a place in California
called Spectrum Electronics.  Their price is only $39!!! plus $4 for UPS
ground.  I ordered both this one and DDay America Invades for just over $82. I
was told by Egghead that when they did get this one in it would probably run
between $55 and $65.  So, why wait for your local dealer to get it when you
can order it and get it in a couple of days :)  I can't wait!!

 Their number is 1-800-983-4321.


                                                        Curtis

BTW-I hope I didn't break any rules posting their number here.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 308       Sat Oct 07, 1995
C.SCHILLING [Curt]           at 20:50 EDT

        Guys,
        Second the notion that this is BY FAR the best strategy squad level
wargame ever.
        1) I've also noticed clicking on the entrench during set-up has not
led to my units being entrenched upon commencing the game.
        2) Will the AI get a make over once you get input from us (The
Players) ??? The Offensive AI DEFINATELY needs work. Obviously this has been
the downfall of many a computer warsim's as programming Defensive AI is much
easier(Still alot of work but easier:)
        3) Can Aircraft be purchased as part of your Core units??

        Gary,
        With wargamming being one of my main releases from Baseball I have to
again say thank you for an outstanding job and I'm looking forward to your
future productions.(Although I'd settle for continual patches and updates to
this over any new games!)
        THanks Again
        Curt Schilling

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 309       Sat Oct 07, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 21:03 EDT

All,

1. Turretless AFVs may only fire at targets in their front firing arc.
Turretless AFVs do not search as well as turreted AFVs when they are buttoned.
Turretless AFVs are allowed a maximum of one facing change in order to perform
opportunity fire, once this once this has occured they may only fire at
targets in their front arc for the remainder of the enemy orders phase.  (at
least I think that's how it works..I havent tested some of this stuff for
months)

2. If the crew of an abandoned AFV/gun is able to move back into the hex with
it's original AFV/gun then it should automaticaly re-crew the weapon during
the morale phase at the end of the turn (unless it becomes highly suppressed
again before it can do this).

3. The intro at the start of all SHORT campaign battles should warn you that a
river needs to be crossed and barges will be desirable.

4. You should receive support for all normal campaign battles.  However in the
long campaign there is a random chance for an enemy counterattack after you
have completed a battle - you will be required to fight a second battle with
the same units (core & support) that survived the first battle.

5. When a passenger unit unloads from a vehicle, it's suppression level is
adjusted to match that of the vehicle.  Thus there is never a need to rally a
passenger - only the carrying vehicle needs to be rallied.


Gary
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 310       Sat Oct 07, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 21:48 EDT

Wolfgang,

1. The entrench feature only works in certain types of battle. In assault type
battles both the attacker and defender may buy off-map artillery, minefields
and dragons-teeth and they may also entrench. In advance or meeting engagement
battles neither player may buy off-map artillery or improve their positions in
any way.  The unit purchase menu has a 'Mission' button that should help you
determine the type of battle you are fighting.

2. A few years ago when I completed Pacific War, I made a lot of experimental
fixes to the program and posted them to the GEnie games library.  The people
who downloaded these fixes usually understood that they were in fact testing
them for me.  This proceedure seemed to work well for the gamers who use GEnie
but brought complaints from customers who did not have GEnie.  The current
policy at SSI requires me to get their approval prior to making any program
changes and that any patches I make be tested by SSI and posted to the SSI-
BBS. A patch is planned for the near future but I am still not sure exactly
what SSI wants me to change.


Curt,

1. You have probably not seen the AI at it's best if you have been fighting
early-war battles as the German against the low-experience, low-morale forces
the Allies had at that time.

2. Air units cannot be be purchased as core units in a campaign because they
are only available at times when you have air superiority.  Allowing air units
in your core force would be giving you air superiority all of the time.

BTW, one of my favorite releases form designing wargames has been to run a
fantasy baseball league (also football & basketball).


Gary

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 311       Sat Oct 07, 1995
C.SCHILLING [Curt]           at 21:55 EDT

        Gary,
        You ever play APBA?? I mean the real APBA?? Not computer but with the
original cards?? I grew up on APBA sports games and AHill Wargames.
        Probably the biggest thrill early in my career happened when I was
signing autographs at a card show and a kid about 16 brought my APBA card for
me to sign!
        There it was, my name on an APBA player card!! What a rush!
        Sorry about the offtrack talk guys.
        Curt

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 312       Sat Oct 07, 1995
D.WOODARD5 [DougW]           at 22:08 EDT

Gary Norman,

Fixed my problem with the campagin not continuing. As I recently upraded my
hard drive I actually have room to do full installs of CD games. I am also
running Win95 and running this game in the Msdos mode. Made a copy of my
Tornado icon which is setup with a special config and autoexec for memory
hungry games. The problem is that to save memory no CD stuff loaded. Game ran
well considering. Once I added the CD lines all's well.

Anyone running this in Win95 non dosmode??

Also thanks for the deployment tip. Though I tried that. Will try again.

Grimace,

Thanks for your interpertation. Put that comment in mostly to illustrate the
manual.

All,

Also have used Spectrum. No problems.

One for the list;

I'm halfway through a game whats the score?? Am I winning losing. I don't need
to know exactly but give me a hint.

DougW
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 313       Sat Oct 07, 1995
E.KWOCK [ELLIOT]             at 23:36 EDT

To all:
        Special Sale Steel Panthers for $37.00 + shipping.
 Contact:
        Weekend Warrior
        8116 Van Noord Ave.
        N. Hollywood, CA. 91605
        ph# 818-988-1441
        Fax# 818-988-1998
 They take visa and mc in addition to the usual forms of payment.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 314       Sun Oct 08, 1995
J.KWONG1 [JohnK]             at 01:10 EDT

Curt,
 Hey that's ok.  I remember having some old Sta-Pro baseball player cards that
I consider asking ballplayers to sign at baseball games.  Never got the chance
though.

John
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 315       Sun Oct 08, 1995
M.MARTINO [JAY]              at 02:05 EDT

        Got this on Friday and I've been playing it all weekend. So far I'm
enjoying this as much as I did Panzer Strike on my old Apple II.

        Couple of observations:

1. Like Panzer Strike, the enemy will concentrate artillery on your on map
indirect weapons. I haven't played enough yet to determine if it's "cheating"
like PS did. In PS the AI would attack your mortars and on-map artillery even
if it can't be seen and didn't fire. Since my stuff had been firing I expect
it was some kind of counter battery routine that smoked my mortars.

2. Where do all the Sdkfz 250s come from?? I'm playing British in a campaign,
and the first thing I noticed is huge numbers of these things. Considering
that particular machine wasn't historically available 'till '42 (maybe late
'41), and that the Germans in 1940 only had enough -'251s- for one company in
each Pz Grenadier reg't, I'm a bit shocked at seeing so many of them.

        Everything else has already been addressed by others. I'll add my vote
to the "Worst Manual" list. I may have seen worse, but not recently. I'd also
like to see a list of the equipment stats if possible. Having that info ready
to hand would make play a bit easier.

        I'm finding out how tough it was for the Brits in the desert. After
whipping the Italians in a few battles I'm now up against the Germans. A whole
tank troop (that's platoon for you Yanks <g>) wiped out in the first contact.
I should have bought Matildas. BTW, the game asks if I want to transfer to the
Far East theatre as soon as '41 starts. Nice touch. I expect as '44 rolls
around there will be lots of options (Italy, Normandy, Far East).

        Jay
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 316       Sun Oct 08, 1995
S.OZCOMERT [Shyster]         at 02:34 EDT

Curtis:

        D-Day, America Invades should be cheaper no?  I bought a copy today at
Comp-USA for $25.90(!).  I guess it was a good deal...

                                -Shyster

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 317       Sun Oct 08, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 03:37 EDT

Jay,

You're thinking its tough as the Brits in the desert ? Ask Sabre what he
thinks about that <g>.

I am having a blast with this. I think I'll pull an all nighter. And an all
dayer....

I just ran into the Poles-from-Hell. Man, those guys surprised me. (Yea, I
know, I stink). I thought I had it all wrapped up when all of a sudden 9 or 10
squads come out of _nowhere_ and start kicking my arse. I had laid down some
heavy arty on the objectives, and it looked like a moonscape. Fire everywhere,
and I'm thinking theres no way these low-morale hapless pickles can have
survived with any kind of fight left in them. Well, I was mistaken. Again, I
was bit by the regenerating crew phenom. Knocked out all of the Poles AT guns,
which were nicely placed on a ridge overlooking my advance route. Then, once I
had my panzers past this obstacle, I start getting hits from the ass-end....

Very nail biting scenario, which says a lot considerng that it was Poland 39.
I managed to get a victory, but at heavy cost. Now it's vs. the Brits at
Cambrai.....

I don't look forward to tangling with the Matildas....

Gary, I gathered from your post that you are not going to have the leeway or
inclination to tinker with this one like you did with Pacwar. That's a real
shame. One of the reasons that I so looked forward to SP (and anything else
that you do, for that matter) was that you continued toying with the code
until you had it just right. One wonders if the Mindscape factor weighs in
this decision...

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 318       Sun Oct 08, 1995
R.GURSKE1 [bob]              at 03:44 EDT

Gary. what computer game do you use for your fantasy league?

                                    Bob (Yankee fan who's sick and tired of
Edgar Martinez. <G>)

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 319       Sun Oct 08, 1995
LAST.RONIN [Kato]            at 06:07 EDT

  Is it a bug when, after selecting Long Campaign, I cannot get the victory
hexes to display when placing units? This was the case for the first American
battle (N.Africa, Dec '41). Since I got no mission blurb either, I arrayed my
forces for a defense...only to find out in turn one (when I suddenly COULD
turn on victory hexes) that I had to pull out and attack! <g>

I think this is a great game; hell, I got up at 0530 Sunday morning to come
down to browse e-mail and then kick some German arse! But...

Inability to do a map recon NEEDS to be changed. Let's see: I'm planning a
battle, and one of the first things I need to do is a METT-T analysis
(mission, enemy, troops, terrain, and time)... <scratches head> Gee, I don't
know my mission on some of the campaign battles because I get no mission blurb
and can't display even victory hexes, I don't have ANY enemy intel, and I
can't recon the terrain before selecting my troops. Nor do I have an idea of
time available to accomplish the mission. Oh well. Fun game, SSI, but just
think of what you might have been able to do if you had a combat arms vet or
an operations guy on your design staff to complement the historian!

On a more positive note, I have to congratulate you, and thank you for turning
out a $40 game in an era where most companies don't bat an eye at slapping a
$65 sticker onto the box.

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 320       Sun Oct 08, 1995
L.SHARP [SABRE]              at 09:59 EDT

Sheeeesh,

On the 3rd scenario of the Long Campaign.  I was sent to N.Africa.  First time
through I was devestated by Maltilda's and 4.5 inch art.  I had to go back
replay the last scenario and load up on 88's and Stug III.  Enemy art. was
still devestating.  But I left burining  enemy tanks everywhere.  Enemy art.
was so bad that I had to pull my 88's off the hill as soon as it was apparent
that the tide had turned in my favor.

I ended up in that campaign with a marginal victory with the option to
transfer to the Russian front for another defensive mission.  It's June of 41.
Still no Pz III J's.  Stug's at this point seem to hold up pretty well. 88's
are just down right awesome.  In the last battle a Beaufighter flew over
spreading hate and destruction, my 88's traversed and damaged it.

For me the AI is plenty tough at this point.  It does seem that the AI gets a
preponderance of art.  It also appears to know exactly where your direct fire
units are.  At least it feels like it does.  It concentrated on all of my
88's, ignoring  everything else untill I pulled them off the hill.  Other
units were on the hill with the 88's.

One last thing in this scenario.  I had a major victory up to the last turn.
The Brits scooted a tank unit up to one of the objectives on the final turn
and took it.  There was no way for me to get to him in time to take it back.
It was undefended.  It was sort of strange the way it got across open ground
without me seeing it.  Tank would make all kinds of dust.  The objective was
in view of the 88's.

I may go back and replay this last one.  I don't relish the thought. I just
hate playing those scenarios where you sit there and wait for the enemy to
come to you, while you are being pounded by art.

I am also wondering why I got a defensive mission in June of 41 on the Eastern
front.

It would really be helpful to view the map before the scenario begins.

Sabre
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 321       Sun Oct 08, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 10:05 EDT

Wolfgang,

The situation with STEEL PANTHERS is more complicated than the one with
PACWAR.

Expectations for PACWAR were very low at the time of it's release.  The brass
at SSI predicted that it would sell about 6000 which is small change in this
business (it actually sold about 15000). Thus nobody at SSI seemed to notice
as I posted about 10 revisions.  Finally, it was complaints to SSI customer
service from people who had heard about the revisions but couldnt get hold of
them, that resulted in the big policy change.

In terms of sound and graphics, SP is far more complicated that any other game
I have worked on.  In order to make this game happen I had to team up with
Keith Brors, a designer/programmer who works for SSI.  Working in his spare
time, Keith wrote the graphics and interface foundation for SP.  He also took
a month off from work to help put the final touches on the interface, AI and
combat routines.

As the brass at SSI realized the potential of SP they spent over $35,000 for
art, music and outside scenario design.  James Young worked for months
designing the short campaigns.  The team of in-house testers at SSI spent the
last four months concentrating on SP.  Even the president of the company was
playing the game.

Thus STEEL PANTHERS has a lot more visibility within the company than PACWAR
ever did.  After all they have invested in SP it is unrealistic to expect them
to relenquish control over it's evolution.  Still, I am sure SSI intends (for
myself or Keith) to fix all of the bugs and perhaps add enhancements to future
versions of the game.


Bob,

I wrote my own Fantasy Football, Baseball and Basketball programs.


Gary



 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 322       Sun Oct 08, 1995
M.MARTINO [JAY]              at 12:03 EDT

        I have to agree with Kato WRT having a more in depth briefing before
the battle. I had one scenario that I was informed that the enemy was counter
attacking after I'd set up. Nice touch. I'd prefer to see a full mission brief
when I click the mission button, not just a date and who I'm fighting. If any
of you ever played the old Gunship sim that would give you an idea of a
reasonable briefing. Basically the map should be available, it doesn't have to
be completely accurate (German maps of Russia were notoriously bad in '41); a
brief on the objectives; and an intel brief. The Intel could be of varying
quality, frex: I'm the Brits in the desert in '41; my mission brief says I'm
fighting Italians in approximatly regiment strength and tank heavy. To my
surprise, when I first see the enemy I find they're Germans, who got to the
front far quicker than the intel wenies expected.

        Something I was wondering: when you repair units after a campaign
battle how much experience do they lose (if any). I noticed that the units
that I'd named would sometimes change back to the default name (i.e. A13 for
my tanks) and sometimes would not. I suspect this is because some of the crew
survived and just recieved a new vehicle, therefore probably not losing much
experience either. I'm going to check the experience thing myself,
unfortunatly it's harder than in PzStrike because you don't get a detailed
roster in the repair screen.


        Jay
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 323       Sun Oct 08, 1995
PAS.JPD [Jaded Gamer]        at 13:08 EDT

Grimace --

>>>I can understand that sentence only in the context of the entire paragraph.
If
 you start to read it from the previous sentence...."For example, if a tank
 targets an enemy tank and the current hit chance displayed on screen is 69%,
 then this is the BASE chance to hit the enemy tank."  The next sentence
states
 in my own words, that the leaders armor RATING can lower this BASE chance to
 hit.  That BASE chance to hit could double (138%?) depending on the leaders
 armor VALUE. <<<<

BTW, I -believe- this is incorrect.  I think when you select a target, the
percentage chance you are given is not the base chance and already has the
leader's rating already factored in.  Otherwise, something is really wonky,
since I've seen two virtually identical units sitting side by side target an
enemy, and one will have 99% chance to hit, and the other will have 0%.  I was
told that this reflects one unit "making its roll" and the other blowing it
badly.  BTW, I was also told that continual targetting of the same (unit or
hex? not sure which) will increase that percentage.

Jim Wirth -- I beg to differ.  The "examine your remaining units, hit a key,
then examine the opponent's remaing units" stuff is simply not in the game.
Musta got ripped out at the last minute, if it was in there during the beta
phase...

All -- In regards to this problem of not seeing the map for the next scenario
before you purchase units really horrible is that you can't save until AFTER
you purchase units and arrive on the map.  Always be sure to save just before
the end of a scenario in a campaign.

Tip of the day... If you have some sort of river hex, and your infantry have
rafts, send them into the drink for a turn, then back onto land.  Your rafts
will remain behind.  Now, just push them around the river.  The AI seems to
take great delight in firing at them, while your combat units creep up
unmolested.  I've only tried this once and it worked -- see if you find the
same thing happens.

(I found this out when I accidentally sent an infantry unit into the river
instead of across a bridge...)

Jaded
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 324       Sun Oct 08, 1995
P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog]          at 13:15 EDT

I need some help, please.

I did a full install under DOS 5 w/ GUS and 20MB RAM and ancient Orchid ProII
video card.  Finally got the game to work w/ no sound and the UNIVBE driver.

Does anyone have any hints on how to get GUS to work w/ SP?

I tried to play the tutorial folowing the manual.  I pick campaign, then
Poland but there is NO on screen briefing (as mentioned at top of pg 4).

When I am done picking my core units as per the tutorial, I click on DONE and
the screen returns to the campaign list w/ the cursor an hourglass. This never
changes and I can not continue.  I have tried to play the tutorial 5 times and
I also get stuck when I click on done.  Any ideas?

So I played a battle and got wiped.

How does one change facing in a hex?

Why does LOS go thru trees?  It definately goes lets you see reverse slope. Is
it treating elevation as layer cake ala ASL or is it trying to smooth the
slopes?

Why are there SMG's in 39?  I thought the Soviets started the SMG units later
in the war.

TIA,

Perry

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 325       Sun Oct 08, 1995
J.STEVENSON6 [IKV Sabre]     at 13:33 EDT

Curt,

you up for an e-mail game?

JoeS/2

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 326       Sun Oct 08, 1995
M.HEIDAL [Viking]            at 13:34 EDT

Hi Grimace,

  I found PS in Software Etc.and paid $45.  That's the first time
 i bought a piece of software at a reasonable price there.

  I started a campaign with the US Marines in the pacific.   Boy
 those Japanese squads are tough!  Most of my guys are getting killed
 before they can gain veteran statis.  Have to keep plowing through
 jungle till i run into the meat-grinder.  Need 5 or 6 raider squads
 to kill 1 enemy squad.  They don't retreat either you have to keep
 shooting till you kill the last man.

  First scenario got a marginal victory.  The second and third were
 draws.

  I've been playing non-stop all weekend!  Played till 4am sat morn
 and 6am sun morn.


--Mike
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 327       Sun Oct 08, 1995
J.STEVENSON6 [IKV Sabre]     at 13:47 EDT

Gary,

re PacWar sales

how many copies sold is a decent number for a wargame?

JoeS/2

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 328       Sun Oct 08, 1995
DREW [DREW]                  at 14:42 EDT

1: Re Win95:

I have this running fine as a DOS session under Win95. The manual says you
have to quit Win95 and run it under DOS but it works if you: -Set up a shorcut
to the program -In the PIF (Properties) of the Shortcut tell it to not let the

 program detect it is running under Windows and run as Full Screen (not
 windowed).

My only problem is that I have music, but no sound effects (with a
Soundblaster AWE32). Are the Sound effects and Music configured separately? (I
fiddled with the volume of the sound effects: 1-2-3-4-5 but to no avail).

2: Excellent game, recommend it very highly but you do have to figure
 some things out for yourself (or read about them here) such as how
 to cross rivers effectively (infantry all carry assault boats, apparently
 but you buy barges for vehicles/arty).

3: Jim Wirth:

Are you the Jim Wirth I used to play miniatures with? Did you used to live and
work in Mountain View California (but left to join the Navy as I recall)?

Drew Sullivan (If you are the Jim I am thinking of EMAIL me as "DREW")
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 329       Sun Oct 08, 1995
D.KING13 [Bug Stomper]       at 15:28 EDT

Curt,

        APBA Football was my favorite game for many years!  Adult life finally
overcame the time required to play out the season.  I think it's cool that
someone brought you a card to autograph.


Vic,

        SL / ASL did same to me.  I owned triple sets of everthing thru GI and
many extra maps.  It took over the favorite game spot that APBA had for so
long.  Never could bring myself to spend all the bucks to convert to ASL.
 Especially when it wuz sposed to be the long awaited battle manual.




All,

        AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!  Just found out the game is out, and it looks to
be sold out!!!  No wait!!  Egghead in Walnut Creek has it!  Gotts go now,
bye!!!


                Bug Stomper


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 330       Sun Oct 08, 1995
S.RAYNOR [STEVER.]           at 15:36 EDT

Gary:  Excellent game!!  But I've had problems with the game locking up and
not allowing me to continue.(i.e. reboot)  It's occured at various times but
always outside of the game itself.  The lockups occur right after I've saved a
game or once when I tried to go to the  deployment screen. Is there a way to
avoid this.  Should I disable something to free up  memory?  Is there a patch
to fix this?

Steve R.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 331       Sun Oct 08, 1995
B.MILLER31 [Brad Miller]     at 16:47 EDT

Drew,

I had the same problem under '95 with sound, music but no effects. I was
running it in Dos mode though. What I did to correct it was exit to a DOS
prompt that was configured for MS-DOS mode and then ran the file SOUND.BAT
that is in the STEEL directory. I set-up the sound for my sound card and
everything works fine since then.

Brad
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 332       Sun Oct 08, 1995
C.SCHILLING [Curt]           at 16:55 EDT

        Joe,
        Not sure I know how but I'll give it a whirl.
        E-Mail me.
        Curt

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 333       Sun Oct 08, 1995
DREW [DREW]                  at 17:01 EDT

Actually I was wrong re the sound effects. The sound effects are there. My
problem was the WIN95 (not the game) has a problem with volume-it plays most
things _way_ too loud even at the lowest volume settings.

The music was drowning out the sound effects, but now that I turned the music
off I can hear the sound effects fine.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 334       Sun Oct 08, 1995
M.MARTINO [JAY]              at 17:04 EDT

        I found an interesting little bug that may be the last vestige of the
"view opponent's forces after the scenario end". While using the view roster
(the one on the options panel that shows the leader names) I discovered that
when I select a leader the opposing OB appears in the unit roster window on
the right. The opposing leaders' names are then show, as well as the status of
any opposing units (KO, damaged ect). It doesn't always happen. I'll try to
narrow down the circumstances.

        Has anyone tried e-mail yet?

        Jay
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 335       Sun Oct 08, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 17:10 EDT

JoeS2,

The number of sales a game has to do to be considered a success depends on the
expectations of the publisher and how much money was spent in developing it.

PACWAR was considered a success because production costs were low for SSI and
the actual sales of 15000 units more than doubled their predictions.  If STEEL
PANTHERS were to sell 'only' 30000 units it would be a major disapointment
because it cost more to make and expectations are much higher.

I have heard that some of the fantasy games being published today have an art
budget of 1 million dollar.  Such a game would be a disaster if it sold less
than 80000 units.


Gary

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 336       Sun Oct 08, 1995
C.DAVIS [charles]            at 17:47 EDT

This runs perfectly from the desktop in win 95, its kind of incredible that
ssi states that it will not.
  It looks really good. just got moderatly beaten by the brits in a may 45
scenario.  i let the computer auto set up, my 88's started way up front and
died early.  But the hordes of typhoons might have done for them anyway.
 I am beginning to wonder if the failure of BSL at AH was due to Avalon hills
expectations of this game, which is a direct competitor in scale and topic to
what BSL would have been especially with the removal of a direct tie back to
asl in the bsl game system.  since they were going to be beat to market maybe
AH decided they wouldnt get the shelf space.  just a thought.

SP really hits the spot for squad level gaming.
  chuck
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 337       Sun Oct 08, 1995
LEAGUES [FantasySport]       at 18:19 EDT

Gary,

        If you ever wish to share those Fantasy software programs, I'd
        love to take a look at them ...

                        Bill Highfield
                        Assistant Sysop,
                        Fantasy Sports Leagues Roundtable


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 338       Sun Oct 08, 1995
DONDO                        at 18:57 EDT

Ok, here is a weirdness.  In playing the Poland Campaign, I think I am getting
only half the map.  In the little window onlower right hand corner, only the
upper box is filled with map.  I didn't think much of it, assuming the little
box shows how big the maps could be, until the third scenario when allthe
victory hexes are in the lower, "blacked out half" which I cannot get to.

Any ideas??

==Dondo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 339       Sun Oct 08, 1995
M.SZARKA [Mike]              at 19:14 EDT

Interesting when you consider that many board wargame print runs are only
about 2,000 units these days.  5,000 sales is a big success.  :(

Mike
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 340       Sun Oct 08, 1995
J.WESTPHAL [Joel]            at 20:15 EDT

 I have question.It says in the back of the manual that novastar will be
making new scenarios for SP.Are they just making new scenarios or are they
also designing new short campaigns?I would love to see both as there is a lack
of them.I want a Barbarosa campaign.I would also love to see one campiagn with
you being able to play Finland during the Russo-Finnish war.I want to be able
to throw the russians back across the Mannerhiem line and use molotov
cocktails on thier tanks as they have to move single file up the forest
roads:)
 Great game SSI!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 341       Sun Oct 08, 1995
R.HEINZ [Bob-in-Fla]         at 20:25 EDT

>I think this is a great game; hell, I got up at 0530 Sunday morning to come
 >down to browse e-mail and then kick some German arse! But...

Achtung: Ein Kato-Teuffel at 500 meters! Feuer!! Ach Du Lieber...missed ..
<throws up hands> "KAMERAD!" <waves white flag at Kato> ;)

FurBull
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 342       Sun Oct 08, 1995
J.STEVENSON6 [IKV Sabre]     at 20:51 EDT

ALL of this game works under OS/2.

set INTERUPT_DURING_IO on.
 set HW_TIMER on
 set DOS low
 set UMB off
 set EMS_MEMORY_LIMIT to max.

JoeS/2

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 343       Sun Oct 08, 1995
D.WOODARD5 [DougW]           at 21:12 EDT

To all,

More questions:

1) How does the sucuess or failure of a battle affect the campaign. Is it
experiance of units going forward or different battles?

2) I'm dieing to hear a Email report.

3) Minor quibble -- The "T" doesn't seem to sort. I expected to see targets
listed in order of % to hit but that doesn't seem to be the case.

4) In regards to tables I'm using Panzer General's at least I can can look up
the __relative strenghs__  of two oppossing units.

5) Gary G wrote his own Fantasy Baseball program. Why am I not surprised.

Doug
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 344       Sun Oct 08, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 21:14 EDT

I've had this game now since Friday, and can only say it looks more like Squad
Leader than any game I've ever seen. The 'feel' of the game is like a
computer/board game as well, which makes it a success to me.

However, I'm having trouble with the install. Any attempt to add sound effects
causes the install program to crash. I can get music, but no gunfire, etc.

Having only played the first three scenarios provided, I haven't seen the
troubles with mines or the campaign games yet, but I do have some questions.

1) I was able to cross the streams in the first two scenarios with vehicles.
Is that intended? Even motorcycles could go across the streams.

2) Motorcycles will destroy buildings if they enter them. It looks strange to
see this happen.

3) The rulebook is extremely lame. I had to figure out the loading/unloading
process by trial and error rather than reading about it, for example.

4) I'm able to load a halftrack, move to my full range and then unload the
men, and have them fire at a target, all in one turn!!! Is that supposed to
happen?

5) When unloading a vehicle, the "next unit" button takes you to a previously
used unit. I figured out that the cursor wasn't on the vehicle anymore, but
it's confusing if you don't see that.

I haven't had any lockups or bugs; the above look to be just minor problems
that are annoyances only.

The scenario where you get to ambush the Russian column in the Finnish woods
is extremely fun to play. The Russians never know what hits them....

Great game, Gary. You've once again got a success on your hands.

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 345       Sun Oct 08, 1995
J.KWONG1 [JohnK]             at 21:55 EDT

Bug Stomper,
 He he, just got mine at CompUSA for $39.95.

Gary,
 What's going on with USAAF?  Will that ever be ported over to the PC market?!

John
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 346       Sun Oct 08, 1995
B-MAX [slvrhillaero]         at 22:19 EDT

 RE: Steel Panthers Patches/updates..............

G. Grigsby and SSI Rep,

THis new policy of not allowing Gary to post betas or experimental updates is
really a poor judgement call. Then to compound it and have SSI "TELL"  Gary
what to update or fix !!!

Based on the LOUSY support and bug fixing SSI did with the entire Great Naval
Battles series
                  (essentially POOR or NONE) what can we expect? People by
Gary Grigsby games or Roger Kroeger games NOT because they are SSI, but
because tose authors support their products QUICKLY and without even vbeing
asked in SPITE of SSI !!

If SSI wants to come out of the 19th century and remidy this whole buis nes,
the solution is to establish an INTERNET site  NOW!!! Not next year, NOW....
That way Internet people, GEnie,AOL, Prodigy, etc. Anybody can FTP to the SSI
home page and get beta or whatever WITHOUT tedious delays, and meddlesome
interference from the corporate suits.

Just my two cents.

BTW. SP is outstanding, but I still say the manual bites. imho :-)
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 347       Sun Oct 08, 1995
W.ROSADO [Foyle]             at 22:29 EDT

Ivd been looking for this one but am unable to find it in the NYC area.  :(

Foyle
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 348       Sun Oct 08, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 22:37 EDT

Gary,

I understand the situation. As long as SSI allows you and Kieth to fix the
glitches, then I see no problems.

Do you think SSI would mind if you or someone in the know were to post the
unit/weapons data ???


Has anyone seen any graphic manifestation of a flamethrower attack ? I haven't
yet, and was kinda hoping you could see flame squirting from the unit into the
target hex.

It's now 6/41 and I'm in my 4th scenario in the long campaign. I had a choice
to go either to Eastern Europe or N.Africa after a decisive victory over the
Brits in Africa. I must say, those 88's really chewed some British butt. It
was a Mattilda weenie-roast.


I think I've found a way to get routed or pinned gun crews back into action
quick - pick them up when they are pinned with a truck and just force the
buggers back to their position. When you drop them off, they man the gun as if
nothing had happened.

Has anyone tried the PBEM option yet ? I looked at some of the save game files
and if the PBEM files aren't any smaller, it's gonna be tough - the save game
files look to total about 550k. Note - this is for campaign games.


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 349       Mon Oct 09, 1995
M.PITTS4                     at 01:37 EDT

Gary, & to whom it may concern at SSI

 Are you considering a port to the PowerPc platform for SP?  It sounds like a
great game, and this is one of the few times I get PC envy. It does seem that
more & more companies are making CD-ROM titles that carry both PC & Mac
versions.  Any chance of this occuring?

 Mpitts
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 350       Mon Oct 09, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 02:41 EDT

I've played a short campaign but not a long one. I never got a Campaign
Summary, is this only for long campaigns?
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 351       Mon Oct 09, 1995
J.ALLEN2 [Gatsby]            at 02:51 EDT

Well I have been playing this since Thurday:

Some comments:

1) It ain't ASL... which is a disappointment and a relief.The depth and nuance
just isn't there, like muliti-level buildings or the sequence of play.. Number
of shots being suppressed... mmmm... don't know?

2) I like the game but I agree with Dondo that something seems to be
missing..I've only played four scnenarios so I'll play some more...

3) Personally I'd like less chrome and better AI and more importantly more
depth to the actual tactical situations.. Also I would like ways to link up
the scenario's with core units or play one scenario after another with
survivors without playing the campaigns...

4) I would like to be able to withdraw or retreat and end a scnenario early if
I am losing...Ie to live to fight another day... This way it has that silly
mission feel to it, where you have to win one mission to go to the next.

5) It feels a little too much like Panzer General for my liking. I played that
twice before I put it back in its jewel case. I too think its ridiculous that
the SSI wants to hold up any patches and give approval. If this is the price
of success I think we all should return our PacWars.:)

6) I'm glad there's a tactical computer wargame out but my ASL boards will
still stay out. Even though I wasn't expecting ASL for the computer I wasn't
expecting a tactical game that used the computers strengths. As it stands now
Norm's Tanks in some ways is a lot better game in terms of combined arms
doctrine and randomness and challenge.

7) It feels tank heavy. And maybe that was the purpose of the game but it sure
doesn't strike me then as a represnetative of World War 2 tactical warfare.
Yes there were many tank battles but most small group action, company and
lower were not slugging it out with armour.

8)I don't know but it doesn't feel like a Grigsby game. And I don't mean
because its lacking the cheezy graphics :).. I mean it just doesn't have that
wonderful sense of depth...

Anyway I marvel at the work and the thinking that went into the game and my
comments are in way meanto to imply that I think this is a not a phenomenol
piece of work. It just to me at any rate feels like somethings were sacrificed
for marketability. I mean come on a soundtrack for a gary Grigsby wargame.
Geez...
 John
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 352       Mon Oct 09, 1995
L.SHARP [SABRE]              at 06:37 EDT

Wolfgang,

I'm onto my 5th scenario in the long campaign.  The last one was against the
Russians.  Germans in a defensive position.  I HATE KVIIA's.  If it wasn't for
the Engineer squads I wouldn't be here writing this post.  Luckily the tanks
attacked without proper infantry support.  Engineers close assualted the KV's
and took them out.  I managed to hold my objectives and won with a decisive
victory.  Promotions and schnapps were handed out all around.  That makes 4
decisive and 1 marginal so far.  I'm back off to N.Africa for the next one.  I
pulled a StugIII and PzIIIe right up to the rear of a KVII. Blasted it at
least 12 times point blank.  No effect.  Still haven't gotten any PZIIIj's.
Oh well.  Loaded up on 88's for the N.Africa scenario.

Well it's off to the land where the sun spends the winter.

Oh, one more thing.  Snipers are a kick.  Very stealthy with good range. Even
managed to make a Russian infantry squad give ground to one.

Sabre

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 353       Mon Oct 09, 1995
C.SCHILLING [Curt]           at 10:44 EDT

        John,
        Don't think I've disagreed with anyone more than you since I've been
on the BB. ASL NEVER will make it to the computer. If it does and your a true
ASL'er it won't be much fun. How much more depth do ya need?? It's pretty
tremendous for a 1st run.
        What is chrome here????
        PANZER GENERAL? C'mon! Division Level ROCK,PAPER,SCISSORS compared to
squad level tactics and individual tanks!!!! The only resemblance to PG I see
are the things that made PG a success with it's audience. Grapics!!
        What do you mean 'most small group action'..'were not slugging it out
with armor'. Don't buy armor for your forces. Use AT Guns and AT teams if you
don't like using tanks.
        Without your last paragraph I was thinking you'd already returned your
copy:)
        Curt

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 354       Mon Oct 09, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 11:51 EDT

We need Weapon Specs, especially penetration. I'm playing the Finns vs Russia
in 1939 and have no idea at what range our AT-Rifles can penetrate even 1"
armor. Finding out the hard way is costly in personnel!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 355       Mon Oct 09, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 13:25 EDT

John,

The game may seem a bit tank heavy at times, but the system was designed to
enforce the lessons of combined arms combat.  Tanks advancing blindly without
supporting infantry are extremely vulnurable to ambush by enemy infantry.
Tanks are frequently disabled when subjected to massed artillery fire or when
traversing minefields.  Life gets a lot easier for the tanks if infantry is
riding with or ahead of them and artillery is available to deliver protective
smoke screens and/or blast enemy artillery positions.

Gary

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 356       Mon Oct 09, 1995
L.SHARP [SABRE]              at 18:24 EDT

If those KVII's had been supported by infantry in a scenario in the Long
Campaign.  I'd be speaking Russian.

Having to much fun with this game.

Wolfgang,

When are we starting an email game?


Sabre
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 357       Mon Oct 09, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 19:10 EDT

Gatsby:  After reading over a hundred posts, I believe you had a comment about
the state of our patches.  Mr Grigsby is dedicated enough to do many patches
for a game like Pacwar.  This is fine if he is going to release these online
with a  "Hey this is untested" disclaimer.

 We (SSI) are an incorporated company, there is no way that we can release
patches which are untested.  This is why we do all revisions at once (or in
the case of PG, twice) test them, then release them.  We do not have the test
resources to continually test new versions as the programmer feels like making
them.

 We will continue to try and get the best information together before updating
a game to v1.1.

 Keeping that in mind, we are getting very good information from this sub.  We
expect, that when a v1.1 is done, it'll cover the things that are not right
with the game.  We do not forsee ourselves reprogramming major portions of the
game to suit requests, but what was meant to be in (and working)in v1.0, will
be in there in v1.1.

 Matt S.
 SSI
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 358       Mon Oct 09, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 19:10 EDT

Steel Panthers Fans! (and one or two detractors I'm sure)

 Gary Grigsby:  Thanks, I'd be hopelessly lost without you. :)

 JoeS/2: we don't have the resources to support OS/2, but I would LOVE to get
those settings in e-mail.

 Mike:  Is PBEM friendly, well no.  But it does work.  The programmer for the
game has promised to clean up the e-mail (I.E. Password lock, etc) in v1.1.

 Reb: When we couldn't locate an appropriate pic for a game piece, we used
something similiar (rather than nothing at all).

 Matt S.
 SSI
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 359       Mon Oct 09, 1995
M.MARTINO [JAY]              at 19:27 EDT

Curt,
        I tried to make my core force infantry heavy with the goal of being
able to buy the armour support I need for each battle. It doesn't work. The
only way to buy your core force for a campaign is to buy tanks, and lots of
'em; then fill out with the cheaper infantry.

Gary,
        I have no problem with it being tank heavy, it just seems that the
artificial opponent makes such ahistorical picks. I won't be able to get a
decent handle on how the AI picks stuff until I've fought against most forces,
but once I do I think I'll easily be able to pick a force that will win almost
every time. I get a feeling that the AI only picks infantry if it has spare
points. I have yet to see the Nazitron have anything other than tanks and
those annoying SPW 250s (in '39 yet!). I don't even think it buys infantry for
the mech transport. Why should it, the 250s have AAMGs.

        My second scenario vs the Poles was a bloodbath. I had 4 operational
tanks at scenario end (from a total of 20). Many were disabled by mines, which
seemed to be everywhere. Polish squads layed doggo all over the battlefield,
popping up at random times to toast a truckload of infantry or ambush a squad
that was trying to rally. My small amount of infantry was telling. Had I had
more I could have rooted out the bad guys a little easier. As it was I was
forced by circumstances to sacrifice some tanks to do that. Had I been able to
see the map before hand I may have purchased mor infantry instead of the extra
platoon of tanks.

        I love this game.

        Jay
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 360       Mon Oct 09, 1995
MO.MORGAN                    at 20:07 EDT

T  H  I  S      G  A  M  E     R  U  L  E  S  !  !  !

Never been so excited or so pleased with one wargame in my life.  Yes the
manual has a few things missing (sometimes the uncertainty makes it more
realistic--harder to finess those last couple of strength points like you do
in a manual wargame).  The many campaigns and scenarios, the battle editor,
force builder, and the capability to "roll your own" scenarios to include
building your own map, are all wonderful value-added features we'd all want
anyway but came in the initial release.  I've never been so happy to spend
~$40-45 on ANYTHING!

Just a couple of downsides thus far after a full "lost weekend" of play.

First, I had four barge carriers on a river crossing and could only get one
barge to launch out of those four.  None indicated "barge" as a passenger but
one evidently had a barge and I urgently need some more!  Not sure how I got
the one to pop out--dismount the engineers, put them in rafts (or not) next to
the barge carriers, unload the barge carriers next to water hexes? Is anyone
pretty competent at launching barges yet?  Maybe this is a bug-- doesn't seem
real intuitive and in my frustration I've tried every combination I can think
of.  I guess the infantry halftracks just vaporize after the squads go into
the rafts--they'd sure be handy on the other side of the river!

Second, there seems to be a conspicuous absence of campaigns and scenarios
between 1941 and 1944.  It was a long war and a lot of it was decided in those
intervening years (North Africa, Italy, the Eastern Front).  I am assuming a
companion CD full of 1942-1943 stuff is on the way--I saw some guy's ad
somewhere in the game or manual.  I am hoping SSI will get a home page on the
Internet soon so we'll get some news and be able to quickly download patches
and enhancements.  Who knows, they might actually get some good feedback from
their customers in addition to the good old registration cards.  Looking
forward to GEnie players exchanging things we've cooked up.

Not sure why there are so many scenarios and battles where you get "no
artillery available".  That seems unrealistic if your sector is a decisive one-
-unless you are outrunning the guns on a breakthrough.  I can understand no
tubes for "Sleepy Hollow" but I haven't seen anything that low-intensity yet
in this game.  Most infantry platoons and companies get a couple of mortars.

Thank you Gary, Keith, and development/betatest team.  The overhead graphics,
combat animations, archive video clips, sound effects (what a great library of
weapon and platform sounds!), weapon and unit inventories, and "war movie"
music are spectacular!  I can see why SSI went whole hog on this one--it is a
powerhouse.  Can't wait to see this one sit on top of CGW and Strategy+ Top
Games lists and "what have you been playing" lists for the next year!

Glad I own a German WW2 tank battalion commander's uniform!  Makes this game
really fun to play (may have to turn the air conditioning down to make wearing
black wool bearable)--just as long as no one knocks on my door!

Mo Morgan
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 361       Mon Oct 09, 1995
R.GURSKE1 [bob]              at 20:20 EDT

SSI: I'm forwarding these comments on the game (and possible bugs) from
another service:







Man o man, the infantry is TOUGH in this game! Ed, you should just love this
 <G>. But I wonders... Would a ten man infantry squad really be able to hide
in
 open ground, even if dug in, within 50 yards of an unbuttoned tank or APC? I

am constantly running into these infantry ambushes out in the open there, and
 even when I know they're there <OK, so I've restarted a battle once or twice

for experimental purposes <G>> and creep up on them one hex at a time, I

_still_ get surprise ambushed! This is true even when I'm just moving <as

opposed to moving fast>. I would think that this would be the major advantage
 of not using all of your movement points in one mad dash....

Which leads me to the possibility that there may be a bug associated with this
 somehow. When moving 2 or more identical units over the same ground from the

same location to the same destination, one unit will move less than half of

it's allotment and be just "moving", while the next unit will move the same
 number of hexes, ending up with the same number of movement points left
 <again, having used less than half> yet be "moving fast". I can think of no

explanation for this other than a bug.

There are also some bugs in the "unit maintenance and pre-battle deployment"

features. For instance, the surviving crews from vehicles destroyed in the

last battle still show up on the roster even though the vehicles have been
 replaced/repaired and are on the roster. Those crews disappear when it's time
 for deployment, but so have a number of assets equal to the number of
"phantom
 crews" that were tacked on to the end... as though the phantom crews have
 pushed them off the 24 max unit roster before disappearing themselves.

Also, as someone mentioned before, it would be REAL nice if we could get a

look at the map before buying our support units before each battle. Terrain

type should play a rather large role in your force composition, I would think.

I wonder if one of you SP players with access to service where SSI reads would
 mind reposting some of this for their attention? Thanks in advance.


                              Regards,  JD



Jim: I had an interesting discussion with a person on another service who went
to the GEMCON show recently. He talked to the SSI reps there and they said SSI
did most of the game design and Gary was more of a consultant!
 And here you did all this playtesting for nothing. <G>

                                                                 Bob

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 362       Mon Oct 09, 1995
C.SCHILLING [Curt]           at 20:35 EDT

        To All,
        Just a note to the powers that be at SSI.
        Is'nt it amazing in this day and age what reputation followed by
quality will do for sales?
        I've waited for this game since the day it was advertised, much like I
did for three years with Across the Rhine. There is one major difference
between myself and alot of the other gamers here (Normal America).
        I dropped the 60$ for ATR and realised within 30 minutes it was a dog.
NOTHING like what I expected or wanted. Needless to say that 130 megs on my
hard drive was emptied soon after and the game went into storage on my shelf.
Did I complain? Did I write a letter? No to both. It kinda bothered me to
waste 60$ but hey! No big deal. I probably WILL NOT purchase another Wargame
Title from Microprose though.
        Now Mr. Normal out there working an honest living and bringing home
hard earned $$ might feel VERY DIFFERENT than I do about blowing th 60$. They
are going to be very resentful to the fact that you promised a Gem and handed
them a Dog(i.e. OUTPOST). This is where companies today lose credibility and
sales in the marketplace. Ya we get ticked when deadlines are missed, some by
months even years, but look back on this BB and find one complaint about SP
being later than promised. YOU WON'T. WHY? Because the product is so damn good
that people are involved from the start. People know Gary is as good as they
get in the computer wargame market and will follow his titles just about
anywhere. He might even be allowed a dog or two along the way:) BUT! we as
gamers know his intentions and support will be there for any product he puts
his name on.
        If you'd just worry about quality and your reputation in the
marketplace you'd never lose customers.
        Now this is general rambling not directed towards any specific party
(Especially not SSI right now:) but the message I hope is clear.
        Sorry to take up your on-line time with this crap but I felt like
saying it and did.
        Curt
        P.S. Get Gary on that First SP PATCH!!!!!!

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 363       Mon Oct 09, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 20:37 EDT

Is anybody here playing this on a 486-33?  It arrived at my local Software
Etc. today.  The box says 486-33 required, but at least a 486-50 recommended.
Since I have a 486-33, that recommendation has me a little spooked. so I'm
very curious as to how this plays on a 33.  Any help would be appreciated; I
really want this on my hard drive!

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 364       Mon Oct 09, 1995
MO.MORGAN                    at 20:40 EDT

Drew,

I have an AWE32 and SP runs fine in Win95 (sound effects and music) if you
"restart in MS-DOS mode".  I disabled my Win95 sound fader control so I could
use the controls that come with the AWE32.  The Win95 fader is pretty sorry
compared to the mixers you get with most sound cards--no tone controls, no
balance, etc.  Must have been programmed by a non-musician.

Not sure why anyone is trying to load SP under Win95 except to purposely get
frustrated.  Like your parents telling you not to stick beans up your nose...

If it works, why dork around with it--you could be killing tanks with that
time you spend locked up!

Gatsby,

SP seems more like a good combined-arms game than a tank game.  If you aren't
really adept at using infantry, you get clobbered.  Incidentally, I am less
than thrilled at how the game adjudicates victories and gives end-of- game
feedback--you can massacre the enemy force but if you don't hop on all those
flag hexes you essentially didn't do real well.  I don't think it really looks
at the exchange ratio.

Mo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 365       Mon Oct 09, 1995
R.GURSKE1 [bob]              at 20:48 EDT

Gary:

Good, well when you write your next fantasy baseball program please take about
500 points off of Edgar Martinez's batting average when he plays the Yanks (or
if that won't do you can program a scud missile to hit his house if you do a
modern version of Steel Panthers. <G>)
   I picked up SP today. Had a hard time finding it because everyone was sold
out.


Matt at SSI:

 While your position visa vi bug fixes is very lucid it belies the fact that
many of us feel that if it's not Gary or Norm it won't get fixed. The most
obvious example of this was the first Great Naval Battles game where a bug
that screwed up the patrol system in the campaign game essentially made that
facet of the game worthless (i.e. the allies stopped escorting their convoys.)
This was reported often and early and never fixed. There are other examples as
well. No one expects a company to continue to revise a design over and over.
However given the complexity of simulations these days it is very possible
that bugs will not be caught for the first revision and if that is the ONLY
revision then the game owner is up the creek. It seems to me that if a problem
in the program that seriously effects game play is discovered after release of
the 1.1 version SSI should make the effort to fix it. I know a whole bunch of
naval wargamer buffs who initially loved GNB but literally will no longer
purchase SSI games because they don't trust SSI's commitment to fix them after
the GNB bugs.
   Having spent 19 months playtesting both PacWar and WIR for Gary I know just
how hard it is track down all the problems before a release (make that
literally impossible) and therefore post release support becomes vital.
 I would think that if SSI did a cost benefit analysis weighing the direct
costs of having to correct a program versus the long term costs of pissing off
future customers or losing old ones they would come to the same conclusion.

                                                               Bob
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 366       Mon Oct 09, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 21:23 EDT

I have a 486-40 PC clone and the game runs just fine. Some of the scrolling is
a little slower than what I'd expect it was designed for, but that's very
minor.

SSI,
        Still can't get the sound effects working. It's an SP compatible sound
system and works for everything else I've got.

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 367       Mon Oct 09, 1995
J.ALLEN2 [Gatsby]            at 21:29 EDT

Curt: (long response)

Wow Curt... You should read my post again, or get someone to read it you
slowly helping you mouth out the words...(joke)

I didn't say I wanted ASL or thought ASL should be put on the computer... I
said a) that i thought it would be more like ASL, and b) that even though I
didn't think it would be ASL I thought it would approach its depth and
historical accuracy...

Chrome? Yes especially compared to other Grigsby creations... and approaching
Panzer general... yes... the mission feel to it... the core units...and the
inability to retreat, the graduating missions in the campaign... etc.

As far as armour ...in the four scenarios I've played(campaign in Poland and
France) my opponent was loaded with armour... including the Poles... Now my
military history Masters was over 15 years ago but I don't remember them
having that much armour where they could launch a counterattack spearheaded by
same...

I never return Grigsby's games because I respect the time and effort he has
put into this hobby in general and I don't think he's some corporate hack
flogging the same engine in another outfit...

When you joined the ASL internet list I knew (and predicted if you rememeber)
that I'd have to put up with this...what is the best way to describe it...
ahhh I know ...no...that wouldn't be right... Lets leave it that we have a
difference of opinion. I'm glad everyone likes the game. I do too in some ways
and my problem might be less with the game specifically and more with the
computer as a game platform in general. After literally thousands of dollars
buying these things, I am beginning to think there is just too much money
involved and pandering to "market" demands to ever do justice to a good
tactical or strategic wargame. Pacwar and WIR were admirable attempts, but
compared to the nuances of World In flames... well what can I say...

I was hoping for the continued patches and involved of Mr. Grigsby here
because he has always it seemed started fromt he assumption that event he best
program/game could be improved. I have lurked on Pacwar and Wir since their
inception and know that along with Mr. Grigsby, there are a number of hardcore
gamers (Mr. Barbin and Mr. Wirth) who were involved int he development of this
game. so my expectations might have been too high.

And just a tad piece of advice, any criticism I have of the game does not
imply that you are an idiot for liking it without qualification, nor does it
demand a response from you to set me straight...

john
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 368       Mon Oct 09, 1995
J.ALLEN2 [Gatsby]            at 21:44 EDT

Gary:

I have no problem with the combined arms aspect of the sim but more with the
ahistorical nature of the early capaign games. As I said there just seems to
be way too much armour.. Even in the heyday of Kursk etc. company level
engagements would not entail a mass quantity of armour. I am not of course
speaking about tank battles per se but about your standard run of the mill
tactical encounter...As you know tanks were very valuable and would rarely be
used in static defence positions,(something which I have found in 3 out of 4
scenarios)

BTW I would really love a way to get my guys out of a scenario once I realized
i was going to lose it...I really feel that the scenario as a microcasm of the
campaign smacks of Panzer general and other less acurate wargames. I'd like to
be able to adequately fight tactical battles without the consequence of an
entire war or campaign on my shoulders and only have to preoccupied with the
welfare of my men...

Anyway congratulations on the work you did on this. I can't help but feel that
it was taken out of your hands at some point and layered with stuff that I
would rathe rhave done without...But that still not detract from your
programming model...

SSI SUPPORT:

Are you saying that your company has no probelm with Mr. Grigsby releasing
private patches of this game on various BB's as long as he does make it clear
that they are not SSI supported?


If that is not the case then your admonitions to me and your assurances will
unfortunately fall on rather skeptical ears. Your company's reputation in
terms of support is well known among gamers. There are numerous examples, and
if PacWar hadn't been supported the way it is by Mr/ grigsby privately I don't
think it might have had the success it did.
 John
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 369       Mon Oct 09, 1995
J.EVANS10 [JohnnyREB]        at 22:15 EDT

        ======= To: S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             =======

  > Is anybody here playing this on a 486-33?  It arrived at my local
  > Software  Etc. today.  The box says 486-33 required, but at least a 486-
  > 50 recommended.  Since I have a 486-33, that recommendation has me a
  > little spooked. so I'm  very curious as to how this plays on a 33.  Any
  > help would be appreciated; I  really want this on my hard drive!

I use a 486DX40 and it plays just fine for me.


        ======= To: SSI.SUPPORT                  =======

  >  Reb: When we couldn't locate an appropriate pic for a game piece, we
  > used  something similiar (rather than nothing at all).


Ok. But I find that kind of hard to believe, since there are so many books out
there with Allied/Axis aircraft 3 view drawings. I have atleast 2 myself.

The game is still good.


        ======= To: M.HEIDAL [Viking]            =======


  >   Boy, my mouth is really watering for this one.  Called Egghead
  > yesterday morning and no PS.  Called today at 2pm and PS is sold   out
  > already!

I hear ya. Last Thur, I went into Software Etc, Babbages, Best Buy and Egghead
to find this game. I couldn't find it. Then again I had the title wrong in my
head, thinksing it was called Panther something or other.

Next day I called and they had them. I paid $33 for it at Egghead, where it
was listed at $39. The clerk told me the wrong price, so that's what my check
said. Looking at the reciept it should have been $43. Like I'm gonna tell him
he goofed. :)

REB






 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 370       Mon Oct 09, 1995
J.KWONG1 [JohnK]             at 22:25 EDT

John and Curt,
 Actually this game reminds me of the old game Kampfgruppe.

Stu,
 I'm running it on a 486/33 DX, 8Megs memory with a 2X CD.  It tends to be a
bit slow but other than that it's ok.

SSI.Support,
 Guys, understand that PacWar was such a hit BECAUSE Gary was willing from
minute one to post "unofficial" patches here and the word spread that the game
RECEIVED SUPPORT!  So what if these patches were not official.  Many people
WANT some kind of support when there are bugs (major or minor) within the
program.

Like Curt said, knowing the problem and giving out the PERCEPTION that the
company is either not willing or able to do anything about it will hurt the
crediability and reputation of the same.

Already there has been many complains concerning the problems with the GNB
series.  The complains deal mainly with the problems with the first game in
that series, the inability of your company to fix problems in that particular
game is talked about by many gamers.  Now if you would delay/stop Gary's
attempt at fixing any bugs and wait till the OFFICIAL patch would no improve
your standing in the computer gaming circles.

John
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 371       Mon Oct 09, 1995
J.STEVENSON6 [IKV Sabre]     at 22:56 EDT

Gary,

thanks for the response.  I guess my question really should have been
 "what kind of market is there for wargames, in terms of the number of people
buying them?"

JoeS/2

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 372       Mon Oct 09, 1995
ECHOBEACH [Rick]             at 23:04 EDT

        ======= To: D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       =======

  > Still enjoying the HELL out of this one... I'm surprised there isn't
  > more  traffic here. I think it might be a problem of distribution. At my
  > local EB,  the day it came in they only had THREE copies. I got the
  > second one....

There may well be problems in this; EB stores get no choice in their stock.
When software stock arrives it's in a big box and what you pull out is what
goes on the shelves.  National management decides how much of what gets sent
where.  I doubt very much they would have taken a big chance on a huge
purchase of SP.  I'll probably buy through D. Landry at NovaStar; he deserves
our support.

  > If any of you are lurking and wondering whether or not to get this one,
  > lurk  no longer. This is definitely the strategy (tactical actually)
  > game of the  YEAR !!!!

After hearing the bug reports, I was beginning to wonder if I really want to
put up with a new round of Learning-How-Not-To-Crash-The-Game.  Your
recommendation helps me to ignore that short attack of Common Sense, Thanks!



 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 373       Mon Oct 09, 1995
M.PRIBE [Escargot]           at 23:16 EDT



        Gary and SSI....I'm enjoying the game quite alot, and I've only played
through 2 battles in the Battle of the bulge campaign. (playing the Germans)

        One problem I am having...

        Is anyone else having trouble with the "No artillery available"
message when you have on map indirect fire weapons.

        I placed 4 150mm guns on the map, yet seem to be unable to use them.

        In the tutorial, and any battle where batteries are available, I was
able to use the gun batteries just fine, including the pre-start bombardment.
Now, having purchased 150mm inf-art(?)...not only can I not do a pre-start
bombardment, I am unable to fire artillery after I've started my move.

        What am I missing? The manual does not go into much detail on this.
I'm doing what it said....at least I thought I was.

        ...@/
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 374       Tue Oct 10, 1995
J.STEVENSON6 [IKV Sabre]     at 00:19 EDT

Gatsby,
 tanks are great in static defense, if you have good terrain to fall back
into.

Stu,

it should run fine of a -33.  Its a wargame, not an arcade game.
 things may update a fraction of a second slower, but no probs.

The more important thing is MEMORY.  And your CD and Harddrive speeds.

they are usually the bottleneck on most PCs anyway, unless you are
multitaksing.

JoeS/2

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 375       Tue Oct 10, 1995
R.NONAY [Ransack]            at 00:27 EDT

Just a question from a prospective purchaser (as soon as I can find a copy!!):

  Does it work with the Gravis Ultrasound??? (I sure hope so! Panzer General
did, but Tanks! didn't...)

  Thanks,
   Ransack

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 376       Tue Oct 10, 1995
J.KWONG1 [JohnK]             at 00:29 EDT

Escargot,
 Supposely, it depends on your leader calling in the artillery.  If his rating
is not high enough ... no dice on the artillery.  At least that's what
happening to me.

John
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 377       Tue Oct 10, 1995
P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog]          at 00:37 EDT

Gary or SSI,

I posted over the weekend because I can not get this game to work.  I just
reinstalled the 30MB version and I can not get the campaign game to go past
core unit selection.  I then tried to choose a scenario and it just dumps me
back to the main menu.

What should I do to fix these problems?  I sure did not pay all the money for
all these missing features.

I am running DOS 5.0 w/ 599.5K of conventional memory and 10MB of free XMS.

Please help.

Perry
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 378       Tue Oct 10, 1995
C.SCHILLING [Curt]           at 00:54 EDT

        Gatsby,
        Was'nt trying to set you straight:) Is that possible?? Just stating my
opinion in response to yours. I oviously realise you like the game or you
would not have wasted time posting anything about it.
        Curt

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 379       Tue Oct 10, 1995
T.SIMO2 [T-MO]               at 01:15 EDT

 Mo Morgan,

  The easiest way I found to offload the barges is drive the barge carriers to
the waters edge and click on the next hex into the water.  Barges pop out
every time.

 All,

  For what it's worth, I've played about 7 scenarios so far with no bugs,
glitchs or lockups.  Great program!  Loved Panzer Strike and Typhoon of Steel
and now have the best of both!  Anybody play Wake Island scenario as the
marines?  Ecked out a draw but was pleased, even shot down a VAL!

                               T-Mo



 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 380       Tue Oct 10, 1995
C.SCHILLING [Curt]           at 01:50 EDT

        Another bug of sorts.
        Saved a scenario from a campaign game (About 4th scenario in vs.
French, My artillery was devastating but so were the French Hvy. Wpns. Squads)
and when I came back to play some of my units (Which are assaulting)
 were entrenched.
        Curt

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 381       Tue Oct 10, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 03:23 EDT

READ - ME - LONG - POST - FROM - SOMEONE - WHO - CARES -



First off, let me say that I _am_ enjoying this one. If this game wasn't so
close to being perfect, I wouldn't give a hoot. But it is. Just this side of
wargame nirvana. Now, to the beefs.

1. The brits in 1940 didn't have anything resembling air control, yet when I
play the 3d scenario in the long campaign, they pound me with Blenheims, and I
get no Stuka/ME-109 support. A-historical.

2. There really should be a Barbarossa Campaign - I mean, after all, wasn't
that the Mother of All Battles ?




Why the hell doesn't anyone address perhaps the most burning issue in their
replies, namely the LACK OF HARD INFO. Could it be that perhaps a deal was cut
with Prima even before the game was releases to include all THE THINGS THAT
SHOULD HAVE COME WITH THE GAME in a post_release "Inside Steel Panthers" book
??

That's a real crock. How many of you bought your last car, or even your last
CAN OPENER without a decent manual ? Can you imagin the hullabaloo if GM said,
"sorry, but if you want to know the essential information on your maintenance
schedule, you'll have to call 1-800-PRIMA." Mark my words - Prima or one of
the other VULTURES will have a MANUAL out real soon that will include unit
data....

This is a sorry state of affairs, IMO...

Wolfgang



PS: Sabre - getting back with you real soon re: the PBEM....scheduling
problem, doncha know...!

To MO Morgan - agreed - BUT - I would have GLADLY paid the extra to
SSI/Grigsby for a full set of data, rather than give any of my money to those
VAMPIRES Prima Publishing....

Prima - "I've got it - you say that you're developing a new game, eh ? Tell ya
what - we'll give you 20% royalties if you leave out a good portion of whats
required to play this game. Then after about 3 weeks we'll release the "Inside
__XXX___ Manual", and it'll sell like hotcakes to those poor dumb
basta___......."


Gary - BRAVO - good post - most of us here are G.G. fans from a long way back.
We support the games that he writes because he supports _us_. At least, thats
the way  it has been. Of course, you must realize that as a market segment,
the grognards on GENie are little more than the fleas on a dogs ass... We know
our shit, but we ain't worth much....


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 382       Tue Oct 10, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 14:47 EDT

WARNING on saved games. Sometimes enemy tanks with disabled Main Guns will
have the gun restored to operation upon loading the saved game. It's happened
twice out of three times so far.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 383       Tue Oct 10, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 15:59 EDT

Escargot,

Some types of artillery cannot be used for indirect fire missions:

Inf-Guns
 AT Guns
 AA Guns

These are direct fire weapons only.

Sorry about the confusion..this should have been in the rule book.


Wolfgang,

The Brits have a slim chance of getting some air support during 1940 just as
the poles have a slimmer chance of getting some in 1939, etc.

Gary

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 384       Tue Oct 10, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 17:57 EDT

Morgan:  The WWW page is on the way.  Don't ask for a date though, I'll let
you know when it goes up.  It'll be nice to have a web page, but seriously, we
get feedback through the grognard grapevine :) (GEnie) and the other services.
A web page is not necessary for that.

 Gurske:  Re: Great Naval Battles.  The users here on GEnie reported bugs, but
our programmer was unable to make the corrections.  It's rare, but with this
particular series, we just couldn't squash all of the bugs.  For those
customers who decided that this (and  other) bug(s) made the game unplayable,
we offered a full refund.

 (Gurske cont'd) Before you reply, I agree that fixing the bugs was/is the
first and best choice.  However, faced with the fact that we _could not_ fix
the bugs with the information and resources that were available at the time,
don't you agree that a refund is totally fair???  I don't think that this is
worth boycotting my company.  We will not leave you stuck.  How many other
companies do that?

 John Lansford:  What kind of card is it?  Genuine Creative Labs cards have
worked fine for almost every user.  Let's see what I can do to  assist you.
You may want to speak with the people at the sound card company to make sure
that their card works with AIL 3 (new sound system by John Miles, many top
game companies use it).  Please also check to make sure your IRQ is less than
10.  If this fails, contact me in e-mail and we'll see what can be done

 Gatsby: Mr. Grigsby has been releasing 'unofficial' patches for SSI games for
a long time.  If we were going to have a problem with it, the time is long
past. :)  We are not involved due to the fact that we _must_ test anything
that we release.  There is no way that we have the resources to test every
patch that Mr Grigsby does, so we must stay out of the rev process when it
continues for so long after release.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 385       Tue Oct 10, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 18:15 EDT

All: Regarding armor penetration vs. damage from weapons, and similiar lists
of stats.  This info is not currently available.  The game was made for fun,
playability, realism, and game balance.  I'd be willing to bet that the
calculations were modified to make the game playable in some cases.  In any
case, I don't have the information and don't see it coming anytime soon.




 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 386       Tue Oct 10, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 18:51 EDT

M.Pitts: Ah, unfortunately not.  I do not believe that we will see Steel
Panthers for the mac/powermac/powerPc.  We ARE getting back into Mac though.
Keep an eye on our next catalog.  It should shed some light on the subject.

 Gatsby: We will fully support this product with a revision when we have the
info to do it correctly.  Gary will only be out on his own if he decides to
continue taking requests for fixes months and months after the major ones have
been corrected.  We hope that you will find the support on this, the hottest
game of it's kind ever (IMO), to be acceptable.  Oh, the game is Tank heavy
because those units are the most fun to play.  It IS a game, after all. :)

 Perry:  Call technical support and they'll help you while you are on the
phone.
                          OR
              Send your autoexec.bat and config.sys files (from drive c:) to
me in e-mail with a description of the problem.  It is something on your
machine, and not the game itself that is the most likely cause.  I'd be glad
to make a boot disk which is likely to solve the problems.

 G.Norman: I'd love to get an example of that in e-mail if you please.  Please
describe it as you have here so I have an idea of what you are sending.

 Matt S.
 SSI

 P.S.  Regarding stats:  James has agreed to get together some good
information for the rev.  I was mistaken when I said that we did not have the
info.  When I have a chart or two for you to look at, I'll send it up.  Give
me some time and when I get it, so will you.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 387       Tue Oct 10, 1995
M.MARTINO [JAY]              at 18:51 EDT

        So far I haven't had any config problems or crashes. I'm still running
Dos 6.22 though, with SB Pro. I don't have too many widgets added on.

        Some people have made comments about some things appearing
ahistorical. Before you make statements like that have a look at what it's
about. As an example Wolfgang posted about Brit air support and no German
(don't take this personally Wolf, I'm just using you as a good example <g>).
Look at it this way: your core force consists of no more than a reinforced
company, whether tank or infantry (you may be able to get a battalion minus if
you just buy inf). It may be a bit hard on our collective wargamer egos, but
we're part of an army of at least hundreds of thousands. Who's to say that
your orders to attack aren't part of some higher plan, as a diversion. If the
<insert preferred victim here> waste air support on you that means they aren't
using it where the main attack is going. It's no comfort to your men, but
that's war.

        I do agree with Gatsby that there seems to be too much armour
(especially since I have yet to see an opposing German infantry squad). It's
not the rule though. My two scenarios in Poland yielded only 6 Polish tanks to
paint on the sides of my Panzers. BTW, Gatsby, you can retreat, I've done it
in a campaign. I lost the battle, but at least my core units survived. I
assume you're referring to the short campaigns though, which I haven't tried.

        I agree that there should have been a Barbarossa Campaign. Frankly I'm
surprised there isn't one. I also agree that the manual sucks, but with the
caveat that I don't need to know everything about how the game works. It would
be nice to have a ready reference to hand to make some comparisons about unit
purchases. I also think it was a bit weird that there's no data on anything
other than tanks and 'planes in the "Encyclopedia".

        But what the hell. I'm enjoying this one a lot. I may wish that some
other stuff had been put in (like the Panzer Strike orders limits, or the
ability to have two player campaigns), but as is it's still the best for it's
genre on the market.


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 388       Tue Oct 10, 1995
PAS.JPD [Jaded Gamer]        at 18:57 EDT

Escargot -- The 150's that you place on the map are DIRECT fire guns, not
arty.  I made the same mistake, first time around.  Arty isn't always
available for purchase...

Matt -- Don't mean to be a hardass about this but... the info on the attack
strengths for various units must be factored into the game somewhere.  I mean,
somehow the game has to know that a sniper rifle can't kill a tank, but a
panzerfaust can.  It may not be in a nice neat list in the manual writer's
recycled paper bin, but someone, somewhere, must know this info.

I tell ya Matt, after you said that, if Prima DOES publish a strategy guide
with this information in it... you've cooked your own goose.

Jaded


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 389       Tue Oct 10, 1995
PAS.JPD [Jaded Gamer]        at 19:00 EDT

Matt -- Pardon my Aladdin lag.  I see that we've straightened this "attack
value" situation out.  Thanks

Jaded

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 390       Tue Oct 10, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 19:26 EDT

All,

Thanks for the reply to my query on performance on my 486-33.  I guess now
I'll have to run down to Software Etc. and hope that the three I saw there
yesterday are still on the shelf

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 391       Tue Oct 10, 1995
P.PURCELL [PERCY]            at 20:55 EDT

I am running SP on a 486 DX50 with AWE32 and WIN 95 with no problems
whatsoever.  I am not running it in MS DOS mode either.  To those having
problems, I suggest not making a shortcut but starting the program from the
RUN menu.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 392       Tue Oct 10, 1995
C.DAVIS [charles]            at 21:04 EDT

The manual is pitiful, SHAME ON YOU SSI. this is a wargame of some depth to
give us a Panzer General level manual for a Squad leader level wargame is just
a crappy decision on your part.   You should have had a better historical
write up, for those who dont know history, and a manual that actually helped
someone play the game.  This is also an early Alert on Rifles that will need a
great Historical section 50 pages or so for the general public who doesnt have
clue what a fuzzy wuzzy was, not these little paragraphs you have in SP.

ANd on the decision to control the updates, this is the worst possible thing
SSI could do, your record is horrid on getting updates out.  If it wasnt for
Gary and N.K. you would have among the worst records in the industry.  Many
people are buying this because they expect GG to be tinkering with it, fixing
things and adding a few good ideas that the public comes up with that in the
end vastly extend the shelf life of the game while at the same time improving
it dramatically.  Pacwar is still played today not because of SSI but because
of Gary G.'s freedom to tinker.  i would imagine that the  sales of pacwar
were due to people hearing of his personal support of the product. And many of
the initial sales of SP are due to the trust we the customer have in Gary
doing a good job.

  Buy SP it is the Number 1 computer wargame so far.  thought i wonder which
Category CGW will put it in judging by Panzer General win in wargames this
might end up in sports :)
  chuck
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 393       Tue Oct 10, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 22:44 EDT

EVERYBODY,

 I just received from Gary an "inhouse" release version of SP and was
surprised to discover how many changes (most for the BAD) had been made since
the last beta I received.  I apologize if I confused or mislead anyone while
describing my interpretation of features/rules based on my out of date beta.

 Now on to other matters:  Many of you have asked about getting more info on
weapon stats.  I assure you this problem will be addressed even if I have to
do it myself.  For the moment however please be patient.  I have discovered
changes that were made in the data files by someone other than Gary or myself
that need investigating and possible correction in the patch.  Once Gary and I
are assured that everything has been fixed, we can see about getting someone
to print the weapon stats somewhere.

 DONDO, JAY, GATSBY,

 First let me say that comparisons to ADVANCE SQUAD LEADER are not
appropriate.  Despite some similarities, the genealogy of SP is more
accurately PANZER STRIKE - KAMPFGRUPPE - PANZERBLITZ (with a touch of TOBRUK
thrown in).  This is not to say that concepts presented in the SQUAD LEADER
games did not influence SP, but then so did the use of the hexagon grid.  As
Jim Dunnigan is fond of saying - when in doubt, plagarize.  Beyond the similar
tactical scale and historical period, SP is a unique game.

 As to the question of SP not being as "deep" as a typical Grigsby game, I can
answer that with a simple example.  Let's compare for a moment the squad
automatic weapons of the Germans, British and Americans in 1944.  The
following table shows you the weapon type, its Infantry Kill rating
(lethality), and its accuracy:

      TYPE                                               INF KILL
ACCURACY

       MG-42 LMG                                       10
6

       Bren LMG                                             6
9

       BAR                                                      4
8

 Which is the better weapon?  Answer:  It depends.  At 6 to 9 hexes, the Bren
is much more accurate than the MG-42 (when range equals accuracy hit
probability is 50%).  Under 6 hexes the higher firepower of the MG-42 gives it
an edge over the Bren.  The lowly BAR seems outclassed by both weapons, but
wait.  The American rifle squad in 1944 carries TWO BARs.  At certain ranges
where the MG-42 and Bren can only get one kill, the two BARs will occasionally
get two kills.  AND YOU SAY THIS GAME HAS NO DEPTH.  There are all kinds of
subtle little things like this going on in the game.  All those weapon names
out there aren't mere chrome.  Except for same caliber artillery, there are
practically no two weapons alike in the game (and there are over 200 of them).

 Please take the time to get more acquainted with the game.  I am sure you
will find that there is a lot more here than meets the eye.

 Jim Wirth

 P.S.  Way to go Curt!  Wish you would write Joel Billings directly!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 394       Tue Oct 10, 1995
P.MEADOWS1 [HardRock]        at 23:42 EDT

 Well..if a manual doesn't tell you what keys do what that's one thing..but
 all this squawking about stats is a bit much.

 I doubt the game company owes you all their formulars. They do owe you that
 the units behave as they should and in the light of who designed it they
 should.

 One reason I got away from boardgames was because of all the rules. The
 intent of the computer is to handle all those rules..without the
 explanations.

 Furthermore,and perhaps the most important thing, what is the point of
 knowing all the formulars so you can mathematically beat what is always a
 poor AI in wargames.

 Trial and error is so bad?
 Think when the Germans ran up against the KV1 they pulled out their little
 penetration chart handbook. No, they learned the hard way..as you should.

 Nor is it the job of a game company to educate you on armored warfare.
 That's why they print books on the subject.

 I've played a lot of wargames so I have experience with what weapon does
 what (yes experience counts for something) but I still don't have any stats
 memorized.   A 75mm HE shell will do more damage than a 50mm...

 I push my troops until I find something that stops them more than 50% of
 the time. If I'm getting whacked by a weapon..obviously I need to re-
 evaluate my strategy.  Such is warfare.

 How boring and uncompetitve it would be to look up before hand what the
 odds are.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 395       Tue Oct 10, 1995
MO.MORGAN                    at 23:48 EDT

T-MO,

Thanks for the help but I did just that and could only get one out of four to
offload the barges.  Must be some kind of glitch or some weird leadership
thing (engineer platoon commander is a weenie).

Believe me, I tried EVERY permutation of barge carriers, water hexes, engineer
squads in the water in rafts and wading, you name it.

I NEED TO GET THOSE TANKS TO THE OTHER BANK!!

SSI.SUPPORT,

Looking forward to your web page when you guys get it going--be sure to let us
know, OK?  Thanks!  Most of us will head over to Compuserve to download
patches since it is the quickest way if you aren't on the 'Net.

Yeah, not much good feedback from those web pages unless people email the
webmaster, at least not the caliber you get from us GEnie grognards.  This is
pretty high-quality stuff; most of the guys on here really know their stuff
and can wring the hell out of a game.  We also have pretty high expectations
so if we gush you know you got a winner.

Professional question:  Are you guys hatching up a modern-period version of
Steel Panthers (M1s, M60s, Centurions, Chieftains, Leopards, T55/62/72/80/90?
 The same methodology as Mech Brigade after Kampfgruppe?  You'd need different
data files, different overhead vehicle pictures and some different
scenarios/campaigns but all this is a pittance compared to what it took to
crank up this game engine.

There is some market for a modern SP--perhaps not to the same intensity as
WWII but there are those who are really into NOW, TOMORROW, and not long ago
(Arab Israeli).  I think the Army would eat that up--our Army advisor will
start looking at SP for possible training application this week.

Mo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 396       Tue Oct 10, 1995
PAS.JPD [Jaded Gamer]        at 23:52 EDT

Here're a few possible buglets I've encountered, and I was wondering if anyone
else had seen them.

Sometimes, you can cycle to a target, and order the unit to fire.  But it
doesn't.  Yep, it has ammo.  Yep, its in range.  It just won't go.  It doesn't
use up any shots, either.

I've had an AFV run out of ammo really quickly.  Is it possible that this is
somehow reflecting damage done to it?  It seems to happen after the AFV takes
fire.  Again, I've checked, and it isn't a suppression thing.  In fact, I have
this one captured in a save game.  Turn two, and a tank has no ammo.

Is it me, or do wrecks block LOS?

What could possible be more fun than setting a couple of core 88's with good
experience up on a hill with a wide field of view?  Gary, if you decide to
tweak the AI, it seems like it doesn't use its mortars very effectively.  If -
I- saw a couple of 88's on a hill (I'm assuming it saw them, they were firing
with gay abandon!) I'd hose those babies down with mortar fire until the crews
were routed off the map!

Jaded

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 397       Wed Oct 11, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 00:42 EDT

Buglet,     Just bought some Green Troops for a campaign. Got more purchase
points than with Average troops, but the symbol was still Corporal stripes
instead of a large "G" and their experience level were Average (50-79 range).
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 398       Wed Oct 11, 1995
V.MILAN [Vic]                at 01:07 EDT

No multi-level buildings?  Durn.

I'm a little concerned that SSI's corporate attitude seems to be that what is
of paramount importance is to protect SSI's investment in the product from the
designer's whims in serving the wishes & interests of his [& SSI's] customers.

OTOH if SSI in fact doesn't intend to obstruct Gary Grigsby from supporting
the product with his own "unauthorized" patches, that's a point in its favor.
Norm Koger's stream of "unauthorized" patchs were a big factor in my buying
TANKS!, & his continued support have increased my enjoyment of the game.

But I'm not sure it's a good sign when customer satisfaction takes place in
spite of corporate policy, rather than because.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 399       Wed Oct 11, 1995
J.ALLEN2 [Gatsby]            at 01:26 EDT

Well guys you have heard it here and right from the mouth of the rep... Just a
quick note.. I'll shut up soon don't worry..

Matt the SSI support guy did admit the game was tank heavy because as he put
it smugly tanks are fun and this is a game. Ahhhh Okay... but Matt the reason
we have bought Gary Grigsby games for so long is because he is so devoted to
versimilitude. We find that fun. The games are fun because he tries with every
game and every patch not only to make the "game" fun to play but also
underdtands that in a wargame there is a dynamic between realism and
playabilty. They are not mutually exclusive. That's why its a "historical"
wargame not a futuristic fantasy wargame. I realize that in this day and age
things like context and historical accuracy have gone the way of the dodo bird
but in these games we have to come to expect and have received the respect for
history and accuracy that so many other "games" don't bother about. The second
world war is not just some neat backdrop with really neato tanks and stuff.
Things, complex things, actually did happen and we play wargames because of
those things.

Okay we have that response from ole Matt and then J.Wirth comes on and tells
us that some things changed between his beta and the game we got, even to go
so far as to say that he thinks some of the data was tweaked.

So all in all my original suspicions seem correct. SSI obviously wants a "hot"
item and in their definition that seems to be something homogenous. Soemthing
that the guy who doesn't like all those messy reules or stats will like. A
panzer general kind of a guy. On the other hand,the designer( and his testers)
of the game seemed to be sincerely intrested in making a great accurate
tactical wargame and I think it is under there somewhere, and I bet if Gary
does do the unofficial patches that we will get what we want.

To the guy who gave up boardgames because of the rules and didn't think any
guy during the war would know the penetration capabilities of certain armour
or shells for specific weapons or targets. You're wrong about him knowing.He
didn't need to look it up. He knew it. He just didn't drive on up and see what
happened.

Jaded Gamer: Yes my guys retreated and I went on which was nice. Can I just
retreat the units off the board on my own... and end the scnario early?

RANT ON
 ALL: This is a bit of a personal rant so you can skip on if you're not
interested.

I am starting to choke on the corporate ether these days. I have watched
things that i dearly love: literature, sports, theatre. film slowly get ground
down by this new age of commercialism: even government and social services is
being talked about as if it is a business and somehow people's lives and well
being were figures on a page. We all accept these corporate metaphors now.

Most sport has lost that wonderful spontaneity. Now we have commericials not
only after the touchdown but after the kickoff.In my business film and theatre
I have watched many great small jewels get bastardized because the target
audience had to be widened and its the same here in what was a small little
niche market. For a while there wargames were left alone because they made a
profit but not a big one. Now with panzer gerneral and aces of the deep and a
few others these companies have decided to see moneyin them there hills, and
have aimed these games at the largest target market. My heart sank when I read
Matt's line about tanks are fun.Its one of those simplistic lines that guys
like that love. Its axiomatic. Of course tanks are fun and of course its only
a game.

But to me it means that this platform will only be used by the majour
companies to produce homgenized products whose market research will sell. Only
small comapanies like adanac and Hps will continue to try to make decent
realistic wargames....RANT OFF

Allright I'll shut up now....But I do think its a shame. Everytime I see a
quarterback squinting over to the sidelines looking for the play I want to
cry. Hey its big business. We can't let the players call the play...Theer's
too much money on this...Anyone my age 38, knows what I mean by the game
becoming predicatble and dull...and I am afraid that the same thing is
happening to this little hobby...slowly the spontaneity of the creative
process will be paved over by the attempt to target the biggest market...

I know I know topic drift... any replies... use e-mail...I won't respond on
here unless its about the game...

Sorry...Thanks for the indulgence
 John
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 400       Wed Oct 11, 1995
V.MILAN [Vic]                at 02:28 EDT

I'd sure love to see a modern version of SP.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 401       Wed Oct 11, 1995
R.GURSKE1 [bob]              at 03:53 EDT

SSI:

 I'm not boyvx|'9d=UI company. I just bought SP. However I've pretty much
passed on games other then those done by either Gary or Norm. However I do
have a number of friends whose experience with GNB has soured them on the
whole company. Somehow telling them SSI has told Gary to refrain from further
"unofficial" patches is hardly going to inspire them. I'll simply put it that
no serious Pac War player still uses the SSI patch but rather one of Gary's
later patches. The reason is very simple, it works much better.

JAllen2 & SSI:

 Probably another reason I've been passing on SSI stuff lately is as I see
 SSI evolving more towards the beer 'n pretzels crowd. It's almost as if Gary
and Norm are the last of the grognard designers they have. It has been very
easy to read between the lines around here that there were a number of
creative differences between SSI and Gary as to how complex SP would be. I
also have some friends who are designing a very elaborate and large scale
wargame. They've been shopping their design around and SSI told them they
wouldn't consider stuff more complex then Panzer General. I suppose I can't
blame SSI for the shift. There is more money in the simpler generic games.
However from my point of view it's not so much me leaving SSI as them leaving
me.

                                                                     Bob
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 403       Wed Oct 11, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 07:45 EDT

Drew,

 Sorry I forgot to answer your post.  No, I am not the Jim Wirth from Mountain
View.  I haven't been to CA in almost 15 years and never farther north than
Monterey  - Carmel.

 John Lansford,

 I guess I have to take the blame/credit for motorcycles.  I suggested them to
Gary based on the fact that I noticed in testing that trucks (soft targets)
usually were destroyed when the second man in the crew was killed.  I figured
that if you had a truck with a 10 man crew, it could take hits until the 10th
man was killed.  Therefore you could use the truck vehicle class to simulate
motorcycles (essentially a fast truck with a 10 man crew).  Unfortunately
somewhere down the line the decision was made to allow trucks to enter
building hexes and this resulted in our "hogs of destruction".  My advice is
to not drive motorcycles or any non-armored vehicle into building hexes.

 Jim Wirth
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 404       Wed Oct 11,lgUNMCS.SEYBOLDT [Steve S.]        at 15:25 EDT

I keep getting a divide overflow error while playing Steel Panthers:  I am
trying to run it on a 486 DX/2, 16 MB of RAM, ATI Ultra VLB video.  I am also
running Windows 95, but in dos mode under special Config.Sys and Autoexec.bat.
The error usually occurs during the intro or purchasin screen.

Any suggestions,

Steve
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 405       Wed Oct 11, 1995
DONDO                        at 17:47 EDT

Mo:  Did you simply attempt to move the barge carriers to a water hex?  The
barges pop right out, leaving the barge carrier behind [the brown covered
truck] which can, BTW, load other items for transport.

Gatsby:  Great post.

==Dondo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 406       Wed Oct 11, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 18:07 EDT

Jaded:  Hey Hey Hey, my final message of 10/10 said that we've reconsidered
and would publish such info in the readme file for v1.1

 and boy am I glad that minds were changed!

 Hardrock: You make some good points.  Many will disagree however.

 Morgan:  I haven't seen anything on the lists of future products.  Let's see
how SP does, and get the bugs worked out before we use the engine again :)
I'd be really curious to know whether your army guy decides to use the game
for training.

 Vic:  I asked the AP to speak with Gary about this.  Gary agrees that the
normal SSI revision process is the way to go.  SSI is not  telling  Gary to do
anything he doesn t want to.  When the SSI team (Gary included) decides that
any in-house revs have been finalized, Gary will be free to dink around with
his parts of the code for the GEnie crowd.  As always.

 Gatsby: In one sentence you agree with me that it's just a game and that
Tanks are fun.  In another, you seem unhappy with SSI (and the state of
wargames in general) because they are too streamlined/not realistic/too
easy/other reasons.

 All I can say,(just my opinion) is that while games of Second Front/Pac War
may be more realistic, Steel Panthers is much more fun to play.  Most of the
people out there seem to agree.

 R.Gurske/All:  There are no problems between Gary and SSI. I can only assume
that whoever assumed that there were, was mistaken (clueless).  Also, all of
the older games by Gary and Norm are still in existence (I'll bet that
Novastar has some of them) so the realism level you want is already out there.

 I guess that I just don't get it.   When given the choice between beautifully
designed artwork, full sound and music support, along with an easy to learn
game with seemingly realistic odds (Steel Panthers) I just wouldn't want to go
back to the EGA hex-based games of a few years ago.  If that makes me a
"Generic Gamer" then I guess I'd better get a bumber sticker for my car :)

 I feel badly about what happened with the GNB games, but in the end we
offered refunds and exchanges for those who waited for the rev and were
unhappy.  We hosed nobody.  We re not here to steal your game $.  (we re also
still working in v1.2 of GNB3)

 Jim Wirth: SSI appreciates the work you do.  However, we still test all areas
of the game and when our design team sees the need to make a modification, it
is done.


 Matt S.
 SSI
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 407       Wed Oct 11, 1995
J.WESTPHAL [Joel]            at 19:49 EDT


 I am in league with Curt here.John are you sure you are playing SP?I do
agree with you on the point that this is not ASL.If it were we would all  have
to lugging around 5000 pages of rules.Gary did it all for us.Although  it does
not have the enormous depth of ASL,it is as close to it as any other  wargame
for the PC yet.
 I think this will be the standard that all tactical level wargames will  have
to compare to in the years to come.Does this game need improvement,sure. I
would love it if they threw in multi-level bulidings.It would be cool if  you
could open up on a squad from the roof of the factory in stalingrad like  in
ASL.
               Joel

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 408       Wed Oct 11, 1995
W.ROSADO [Foyle]             at 20:17 EDT

Got this one yesturday at the Egghead a Grand central in NYC.  It was the only
copy in the store and I snached it at $39.88.

Foyle
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 409       Wed Oct 11, 1995
M.HEIDAL [Viking]            at 20:49 EDT


  Anytime i load a saved LONG CAMPAIGN GAME all my German units are
 dug-in.  not a complaint just a small bug.


--Mike
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 410       Wed Oct 11, 1995
LAST.RONIN [Kato]            at 21:09 EDT

When reading the below comments, keep in mind I'm having a ball with this
game. The only time I set it aside is when I'm called fight via modem in
Command and Conquer. <g> ...and that may stop happening if SP goes modemable.

Minor bug: The game doesn't always update the "enemy seen" variable.
Sometimes, when another unit has killed all the enemy in sight, a unit will
still report enemy seen, but when you click on the "T" button, or key, you get
a "No enemy found," message. Yet it still shows enemy seen....

Isn't is a bit much to be able to move a loaded unit into position, unload it,
fire at the enemy, load back up and move back behind the hill? How long are
these combat turns?

"Life gets a lot easier for the tanks if infantry is riding with or ahead of
them?" Tell that to my Panzer IVs and my Stu-IIIs who've been immobilized by
ambushes by British Commandos!

Yeah, Snail, I've had on-the-map 150mm infantry cannon, but not been able to
use them. That sure was a waste of credits. (just read that those were for
direct fire only. <shrugs>)


Has anyone been able to start with the Americans in the Long Campaign, in
North Africa, with the AI on average, and win the first battle? I can't tell
you how irritating it is, as an ex-infantryman, to keep getting my arse
kicked, even if it's historically accurate. <g> Damn DATs can't hit the broad
side of a barn from the inside...and when they do, the shot just bounces off,
more often than not. <sigh>

"Anyone can play as the Germans in the early war and do well." <g>



Furball:
 Kato [TC]: "'KAMERAD!' my arse. Gunner! HE! Dismounted Troops in the open,
200 yards!"
 Gunner: "Identified!"
 Kato: "Fire!"
 Gunner: "On the way!"
 Kato: "Target destroyed! Cease Fire!"


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 411       Wed Oct 11, 1995
MO.MORGAN                    at 21:42 EDT

Dondo,

I believe I moved the one successful truck to what was left of a bridge end
hex and I can't remember if the barge popped out between turns or I unloaded
it--I was so tickled to have it appear that I promptly tried to do the others.
I had engineers in the water next to the hex.  I've tried EVERYTHING with the
remaining three trucks and no luck.  I've driven them into water edge hexes
and anything else I can think om!.No luck!

I have a hypothesis:  I bought the barge carriers last in the support stuff.
 I had enough points to buy them but perhaps the game thought I didn't have
enough to buy the barges that come with them.  I can't recall seeing barges
appearing as passengers in those Opel trucks.  So I said "to Hell with it" and
restarted the France 40 scenario.  By the way I don't like the option to exit
after a battle and not have it prompt me to save--I lose the result of that
battle in the campaign.

I also started a long campaign in the desert.  No frigging barges needed
there!

"Barges?  We don't need no steenking barges!"  Mo (still dripping wet)

SSI.SUPPORT,

I'll stay networked with you on whether our Army ACSC faculty and students use
SP.  Our Army advisor tried it out today while I was in other meetings (I
loaned him the CD for the day) and I'll get his impression tomorrow. Gary
Grigsby attended at least one of our commercial wargame designer conferences--
ask him about us.  If the Army guys at our school use it, I expect to see it
in Army Doctrine Refresher Course--a "regreening" week or two in late
July/early August to get the Army students up to speed before they start ACSC.

Mo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 412       Wed Oct 11, 1995
B.MILLER31 [Brad Miller]     at 21:57 EDT

I've been playing this since I picked it up on Sunday. VERY nice! I am
currently getting my butt kicked as the Brit's in the Market Garden Campaign.
I purchased some Churchil Crocodile FT tanks in the first scenario and have
yet to have them use the FT. Has anyone been able to get them to fire the FT?
If so is there some trick to it?

Brad
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 413       Wed Oct 11, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 21:59 EDT

SSI:

The sound card on my computer is a Reveal, by Hewlett Packard. The music works
just fine, but trying to install the sound effects during install crashes the
entire program and boots it out.

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 414       Wed Oct 11, 1995
P.MEADOWS1 [HardRock]        at 22:19 EDT

   Zoooom !!!!!!!     Flashes thru SP.....

  (Since all the wargamers are here;)


 Ardennes Battle of the Bulge is out!    Now if I can just find that topic:)


 Back to your regularly "but I wanna know what penetrates"  discussion" :>
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 415       Wed Oct 11, 1995
P.MEADOWS1 [HardRock]        at 22:33 EDT

 Rgr Matt.
 With all the games out (and I need them all:) I do appreciate the
 "reasonable" price SP was offered at. I also know a large reference manual
 would cost more $.

 If you can assure us of historically accurate games...I can go without a
 large reference manual;>

 Good job btw...you do answer posts ;-)

 -HR
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 416       Wed Oct 11, 1995
D.BILEK [Agent]              at 23:42 EDT

     First let me say, great game!  I'm enjoying it immensely...

    Having said that, the campaigns desperately need some polishing.
 Numerous battles during the campaigns end WAY too early...  the one
 that sticks in my mind is battle 3 of the World War III campaign as
 the Americans.  Its supposed to be about 26 or 28 turns, but I just
 got a loss on turn 12<!>.  Sheesh...

    Also, when I lose the battle I just get sent back to the Main
 Menu, no messages except for the score.  Is that how its supposed to
 work?  You win 2 decisive battles, and then you get a marginal loss and
 the campaign just ends without even a message telling you???

    Thirdly, in the long campaign as Germans, I don't get any
 messages between battles telling me the situation.  Basically I just
 have to guess what units to buy.  Hell, I don't even know who I'm
 fighting.  I was advancing through Poland, won a battle, then expecting
 an assault on Warsaw I buy my units and all of a sudden I'm in >FRANCE<.

     Shouldn't there be at least some sort of message telling you
 'Congratulations, you've conquered Poland, now you are being shifted
 to France!'?


    The game is fun, but stuff like that detracts from the enjoyment as
 the campaigns can lack a sense of continuity.  Please polish this up
 in the patch... or if its a bug please fix it.

     -David
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 417       Wed Oct 11, 1995
DREW [DREW]                  at 23:56 EDT

Re what units to use for Core in Caompaign:

I agree armor is the best core unit. Infantry is important/essential but the
core units gain experience, and you can buy infantry fodder each battle.

Along the same lines-if for example you want an AT section, buy the  guns as a
core unit, but their transport for each battle new. Same for infantry carriers
(trucks/APCs) IMO. You want elite guns, not elite trucks to pull them.

Re tables of what peneterates what:

SSI's idea that we don't need that is unfortunate. Personally I am a loyal
purchaser of Gary Grigsby products, not SSI products.

Until SSI comes to their senses (or goes bankrupt due to insulting their
customers) I recommend you run Tigers on the Prowl or Panthers in the Shadows
or both simultaneously under windows. (both are excellent, tho' different WWII
armored games as well, and as worthwhile as  Steel Panthers). I just run all
under Win95, and use the enormous databases and graphs of, say Panthers in the
Shadows to see what the  armor penetration capability of a Pzkw IVf2 is, while
playing  Steel Panthers.

In all Steel Panthers is excellent. Now back to the "Battle of Dover"  in
Sealion.

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 418       Thu Oct 12, 1995
R.WILLIS16 [Bob Willis]      at 00:04 EDT

Hello,

Just an interesting observation.  I was snooping around the SP files looking
for weapon info, and happened upon OBMBT.  OBPZ, OBUS, OBJA, etc have names
(and I assume data) for various WWII weapons.  OBMBT has such interesting
entries as "HARM", "Shrike", "Paveway", "AT-3b Sagger", "HE Cluster Bomb", and
"30mm Gat".  Perhaps the rumored modern follow-on to SP is further along than
we suspected, or is there a "Final Countdown" scenario buried in there
somewhere...


--- Bob
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 419       Thu Oct 12, 1995
R.GURSKE1 [bob]              at 01:14 EDT

   SSI: I have absolutely nothing against good looking games or good sounding
games. I personally get bored with simple games and don't buy them (I would
put Panzer General in that category.) That doesn't mean I think it's a bad
game, it's just not my cup of tea. SSI has indicated this is the direction
they want to go in. If they continue to do both I'll get the ones I like.
   As far as support is concerned I, like a number of others here, was dimayed
to find out Gary was told not to do his own "unoffical" updates because from
what I've seen they address facets of the game that the SSI versions do not.
This is just my opinion of course. However if there are any Pac War players
out there with access to 1.0x19 or beyond that are still using SSI version 1.1
please feel free to say so. I don't think there will be a stampede of such
players to say that they are.
   I could list more games then just GNB. Western Front and Larussa come to
mind. I've been playing SSI games since 1983 and had over 50 SSI titles last
time I bothered to count. It is simply my opinion that the quality control
ain't what it used to be. You obviously disagree. I'll be perfectly happy if
the games now being released are completely debugged and I am proven wrong.
 However for that the ball is in your court.

                                                                    Bob





 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 420       Thu Oct 12, 1995
DONDO                        at 01:51 EDT

Mo:  Huh.  One stupid thought:  At the buy screen, there are two bars, the top
one for engineer squad, the bottom one for the barges.  If you have engineers
popping out, could it be you did not click on the barge carrier bar?  I know
that clicking one then the other does change the screen...

Matt:  Yup, the glitz is fun, BUT... the AI is really weak.  Turning up the
difficulty does not do anything but give it a spotting/shooting superiority.
The AI seems to have no concept of the victory conditions, flanking maneuvers
and so on.  I have blown through the first three campaigns with average scores
of 1000+ to less than 10.  That just isn't very challenging.

So yeah, I am glad I bought it, but it just isn't going to have much of a
shelf life.  By lack of depth... well, the same kind of tactics that worked in
PG work here.  Load up the armor, smash through to the victory squares, and
just sit there.  Doesn't take too much to do that.

What I look for in a strategy/war game is a series of problems that I have to
solve.  I am not finding that here.  And please note I am not whining about
historical realism--I don't have enough knowledge of the topic to know any
better.  But it sure don't seem much like the books I have read, in that the
tactics are totally different.

==Dondo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 421       Thu Oct 12, 1995
P.CHIN2                      at 02:16 EDT

Been playing SP for a week now and having a GREAT time.  Been playing mostly
long campaigns and 2 player battle scenerios.  Along with the previously
mentioned occasional bugs, I have a few questions for anyone who can answer
them.

  1. In the Battle Generator, is there anyway to control\limit the
     amount of battle points for each side? I tried to set up a
     Bulgarian vs Yugoslavian battle with the Bulgarians set yo ADVANCE.
     The Generator gave the Bulgarians over 900 battle points to spend.
     With all there units really cheap to purchase, all the best units
     were purachase as was the maximum allowed and still over 200 points
     were left over.  A way to set a battle size (small, medium, large)
     would be very helpful (....maybe in a patch?).

  2. The long campaigns appear to skip over large time periods occasionally
     during the war.  Also, played 2 battles as Germans against the French
     and had to defend both of them.  Didn't get to attack French at all,
     then went to Africa to fight British.

The manual is ALMOST no help at all, except just to get started.  It  answers
almost no questions to any sort of specific questions.

Pman
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 422       Thu Oct 12, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 07:40 EDT

Matt (SSI SUPPORT),

 You keep forgetting that I've been with this puppy from the beginning.  The
"design team" on STEEL PANTHERS was Gary Grigsby and Keith Brors.  SSI paid
almost no attention to this game for months, then when some genius there
realized it was a great game the inhouse people jumped in to try and steal
credit for the design (maybe we should call it STOLEN PANTHERS).  Except for
prettying up a few of the screens (what I would call electronic box art) and
adding video and music, the contribution of the inhouse people was almost
TOTALLY NEGATIVE.

 Let me cite a case in point of the work of YOUR "design team".  When the game
went to SSI for inhouse final polishing, the movement rate of medium and heavy
machine gun units was 5 and 4 respectively.  In the released version, medium
and heavy machine gun units have a movement rate of 6, the same as an infantry
squad.  An American 50 caliber machine gun weights 84lbs.  NOBODY is going to
run with it like it was a 9.5lb M1 rifle!  This isn't a question of historical
accuracy, IT'S PLAIN PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO MOVE AS FAST CARRYING A MACHINE
GUN AS A RIFLE!!!  Your "designers" simply didn't think those slow moving
machine guns were much fun.  Why let a little thing like reality get in the
way of making a fun game?

 When will SSI realize that wargamers are not fantasy gamers?  Why do you care
to have the input of people like me when you ignore what we are telling you?
I joined the playtest process at the INVITATION of SSI to help you make better
HISTORICAL wargames.  Wargames, at least GOOD wargames, are not merely games;
they are simulations of actual reality (i.e. warfare).  Things that aren't
physically possible have no place in wargames.  SSI's pursuit of a wider
market for wargames at the expense of historical (and now even physical)
reality will in the long run have adverse consequences.

 Jim Wirth
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 423       Thu Oct 12, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 09:36 EDT

Pman,

The battle generator allows you to build a battle of any size you want.
 Player 1 determines the 'size' of the battle with the number of points that
he spends.  Player 2 is allowed a number of points proportional to what player
1 spent.

For example, in a Meeting Engagement battle player 1 spends 200 points points
(out 900 possible) to select his force.  Player 2 would now be allowed a
MAXIMUM of 200 points to select his force.

In Assault and Advance type battles the two players would not receive equal
sized forces but the forces would remain proportional to each other such as
ATTACKER/DEFENDER = 2/1.

Gary

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 424       Thu Oct 12, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 12:43 EDT

EVERYBODY,

 CLARIFICATION OF MY POST TO MATT (SSI SUPPORT) - The changed movement rate
for machine guns applies ONLY  to the "canned" scenarios, not to the campaign
games or DYO scenarios.  Why this was done I have no idea, but my basic point
remains the same  -- such changes were made for no good reason I can discern.

 Jay,

 Our sources indicated that the Spw-250 was available from the beginning of
the War, but I will double check for you.  I do agree with you that German
halftracks of all types were in very short supply and are over-represented in
the game.  The problem here was that there was no reasonable way of
prejudicing the computer against halftracks without assigning them
prohibitively high purchase costs.  The same problem exists for Tiger tanks
that the computer loves to select even though they were very rare.  My
solution in DYO scenarios is to pick the computer's forces for it, then turn
the side over to the computer.

 Perr Dog,

 Soviet SMG squads are represent in the game from the beginning of the War so
that they can be used to represent "elite" units like the NKVD regiments and
paratroopers.  By 1942 SMG equipped squads were showing up in GUARDS units and
in the motor rifle regiments of tank and mechanized corps.

 Everyone,

 To go off topic for just a moment, I was wondering if any of you had heard
that O.J. now has a web site on the INTERNET?  If you're interested in writing
him, his address is:

                                                  OJ.LA///

 Jim Wirth


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 425       Thu Oct 12, 1995
LEAGUES [FantasySport]       at 12:59 EDT

        I got it!  I got it! <g>  Had to drive 30 miles, but I got it.

        It'll take me some time to figure out what the hell I'm doing, but
        hopefully not too long.  I still have a tendancy to rush forward
        too quickly and get my rear end shot off by entrenched troops.

        What's the best way to spot enemy positions that are hidden, besides
        walking headlong into an ambush?

                        Bill Highfield
                        St Cloud, Florida

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 426       Thu Oct 12, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 14:19 EDT

I've a crew, of 4 men, left over from one scenario to another in the Polish
campaign. They are carrying, on foot, a 57L73 Gun with 100 rounds of ammo, at
a speed of 6. Don't know where they came from as I've never had such a weapon,
nor lost a Core unit. Very interesting!?
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 427       Thu Oct 12, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 14:46 EDT

Bill,     Inf are best spotters. Look around (rotate them) before loading on
AFV. Dismount when vehicle stops and rotate again. Bad guys appear in the
darndest places!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 428       Thu Oct 12, 1995
D.MEERDINK [Dale]            at 19:13 EDT


   I've really been enjoying this excellent game. I have a few things that I
would like to see added to the patch list:

   -Immobilized vehicles should not be allowed to pivot within the hex.

   -Ordnance should not be allowed to fire on the same turn that it's
transported.

   -A unit can jump from a bridge hex to a land hex even if the connecting
hexside is all water.

   -AI should not fire on empty assault boats.

   -AI should make better use of defensive terrain.

   -That white static on the water hexes is very annoying.

   -Started a long campaign playing Russia. In the 1st scenario I had to
defend against the Finns. In a 21 turn game only 2 squads & a sniper ever
appeared. I was hit by massive artillery barrages. Either the AI spent all its
points on artillery or else started on the far edge of the map with no
vehicular transport.

   -The map-sizer in the battle generator doesn't work.

   -Something's not working right with the map-sizer in the scenario editor.
 It works OK in the editor itself but when you exit the editor it still seems
to be influencing the map size in the scenarios.

   -Question: Do infantry receive any defensive bonus for being in a hex with
shellholes? What are the defensive bonuses for woods & buildings? How 'bout
infantry using an AFV for cover? Why isn't this covered in the rulebook???

   -Editorial: I really don't understand the logic of SSI making the game less
realistic in the name of fun, as if the two were mutually exclusive. A casual
gamer's not going to even notice the movement rate of MMG/HMGs, so why make
this unrealistic? Giving them historical values is more fun & not less because
if they can't move as fast as other units it adds to the tactical decisions to
be made. Steel Panthers will sell well because it's easy & fun to play, not
because someone fudged the data. Please let GG fix this stuff.

   -Tip: To unload barge carriers drive up to a beach hex & then click on an
all-water hex as if the barge carrier was going to drive right into the river.
The barge will appear in this river hex. (Bug-If the barge carrier also has a
passenger such as the engineer unit, this unit seems to dissappear when you
unload the barge.)

   -re motorcycles: These super-bikes can also tow artillery pieces.
Unrealistic maybe, but it sure makes the game more fun. ;)


                                               Dale

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 429       Thu Oct 12, 1995
R.GURSKE1 [bob]              at 19:27 EDT

Jim:

When will SSI realize wargames are not fantasy games? The answer is never.
This game will sell better then other Grigsby games and they'll put one and
one together and come up with three. It was the same with No Greater Glory. As
an historical simulation that game was a complete bomb. The computer cheated
wildly and any result that was even remotely connected to historical accuracy
was almost as improbable as OJ really being innocent. However the sales were
pretty good on it so SSI considered it a great success. As I've mentioned
before it is quite apparent SSI is going in the direction of the "beer n'
pretzel" wagamer where historical accuracy (and those facets of games that are
considered drudgery) will be replaced, deleted or modified to make the games
"fun." There is nothing inherently wrong with that unless of course one thinks
these wargames are really going to be wargames.
   I'm sure Matt will come over here and tell us (or me) that I'm all wet and
"misinformed." However I would simply point out that anyone who cares to read
back into the D* base around here can get Gary's comments on being told not to
do any more unnoficial updates, Norm Koger's volumnous notes on how he was
told to keep Rifles simplified (stating that the criteria he used for Tanks
would never survive present day guidelines) and other comments here.
   Also as I've pointed out SSI brass told some game developers exactly what
kind of games they would or would not accept and historically accurate games
was on the "no no" list. Finally for me to get into more detail from my point
of view I would have to discuss things that were told to me in confidence or
get into private issues raised when I was playtesting. I'll simply say I feel
comfortable with my point of view.
   I don't blame SSI at all for the tact they are taking. These simpler games
will undoubtedly sell well. However in trying to draw in the "wargamer lite"
crowd they will drive away the grognards (who much prefer those clunky EGA
graphics and no sound if it's a choice between that or razzle dazzle high tech
chrome.) Ideally a game should have both but then production costs are too
high and the game has to appeal to a simpler market which means simplifying it
and making it fun, etc ,etc ,etc.

                                                                    Bob
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 430       Thu Oct 12, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 20:10 EDT

Just got off internet - saw something about a 1.1 patch, the poster said to
"Call SSI..."  What gives ?


Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 431       Thu Oct 12, 1995
J.EVANS10 [JohnnyREB]        at 20:49 EDT

I lost 2 PzIV to those damn Polish pony riders. Those ponies must be mounting
AT weapons of some kind like the X-19 Pony Panzerfaust.

Blasted Poles.

Great game. Love the sound and the animation.

REB

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 432       Thu Oct 12, 1995
PAS.JPD [Jaded Gamer]        at 22:18 EDT

Kato -- RE: The "Enemy Seen" buglet.  Check to see if they are "seeing"
abandoned guns/mortars.  That's what I thought was happening.  Not sure if
you'd call that a bug or not... (y,know, you look our over the battlefield and
see an '88.  You alert the crew and take evasive action, but never notice that
currently no one is manning the gun.).  Since a crew can come back to the gun,
the program probably never flags it as destroyed, so it gets listed as a seen
enemy.

Mo -- On the barge issue.  Try doing a "Direct Fire" at an adjacent water hex
with the barge carrier.  I haven't tried this, but I read over on CIS that
this will cause the carrier to launch the barge.


Dondo - Re: Weak AI.  THANK YOU.  I thought I was going crazy, or had somehow
become SUPERGAMER over night.  Didja notice, though, that often the scores
don't really reflect the status at the end of a battle?  IOW, even though you
win 1000+ to <50, the damage done to both sides often isn't that far out of
whack.  Not saying the human player isn't dishing out more than he takes, but
it isn't a 10 fold difference in damage.


Jaded

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 433       Thu Oct 12, 1995
J.KWONG1 [JohnK]             at 22:18 EDT

Bill,
 Try using the overwatch system.  Have you scout/armor cars advance first and
look around.  Then leap frog your troops.

John
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 434       Thu Oct 12, 1995
P.MEADOWS1 [HardRock]        at 22:20 EDT

 Of course I agree with everything you say Bob but I do want good
 graphics/sound...not EGA:)  There's no reason we can't have both.

 SP proves it ...all that is needed is the complete historical element.

 If indeed HMGs travel as fast as inf then much has been sacrificed for
 fun...except as you point out..historical is ni less fun.
 I would venture lack of invested time equals the so called fun.

 I still don't need stat manuals to play a game but if it's necessary to
 confirm historical accuracy for us...so be it.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 436       Thu Oct 12, 1995
R.GURSKE1 [bob]              at 23:50 EDT

Hard Rock: What's needed is an attitude that it's "OK" top have more advanced
features. SSI USED to do that. Games with multiple levels of complexity used
to be standard fare from Dave Landrey, Grigsby, Kroger, etc.
 The problem is that alot of software executives (from many compnaies)
consider wargames box office poison and complex wargames box office suicide.
 They won't consider that many facets of the game can be made optional and
allowing the customer to set the level of complexity. That in turn broadens
the appeal of a game by making it attractive to all facets of the wargame
community by offering each the chance to play the game at a level comfortable
for them (and I've been making this argument since the Pac War days.)
Unfortunately what many times is substituted is "one version fits all"
approach.
    I'm not including Gary and Norm in this (though I think there games have
been altered over what they would have preferred by up top) as they are sort
of a holdover from an earlier generation of wargame designers.
    To me options instead of a comprimise in design makes so much more sense.
I fail to see why it's not a very popular idea but it's not.

                                                                   Bob
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 437       Fri Oct 13, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 00:02 EDT

OK. There are some very SCREWED up things going on with the LOS. I have
uploaded a file called WHY.ZIP and I want you to check this out.

Unit B3, a PZ-IIIh located at 35,29, a level 0 road, can see, as you would
expect, the hex directly in front of it, (36,29) another level 0 road. BUT, it
can't see 36,29, which is ONE hex away, ANOTHER level 0 road hex. Thats like
if I were in my car and could see the car in front of me but couldn't see the
traffic light. This unit CAN see, however, hex 39,25 which is WELL beyond a
tree line. It can also see hex 51,29. Now, sock me in the gulliver if I am
just being stupid, but from all of my gaming experience, if someone that I was
playing tried to pull this crap, I would have probablt either got out a LONG
rubber band, and if he insisted, I would have simply tossed the board.... I
want you guys to check this one out. We will have a point of reference here.
Some of you who are in the know, explain why a tank can't see 2 hexes down a
straight dirt road but can see 8 hexes or so at a 45 degree angle through
trees.......


Wolfgang


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 438       Fri Oct 13, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 00:10 EDT

Woops - I should have said -----

It can see 36,29, but CAN NOT see 37,29. There is absolutely NOTHING in the
way... Please, please, please explain this, otherwise the normal tactics of
trying to use terrain etc is completely USELESS...


Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 439       Fri Oct 13, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 00:21 EDT

Seriously, if these LOS problems aren't fixed, then this game becomes more and
more like PG or Risk. It's a TACTICAL level tank game. Line of sight is
CRUCIAL. If a tank can't see 2 hexes straight down a dirt road, but can see 8
hexes at a 45 degree angle through a tree line, then there is definitely
something rotten in Denmark (or is that Sunnyvale?)


Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 440       Fri Oct 13, 1995
M.KENNEDY20 [MAK]            at 01:06 EDT

Jim-

CHANGED THE MOVEMENT RATE?!?!?  The putrid Nintendo turd should be marched out
of town on a rail at a movement rate of about 15 and... well you get my drift.
<small flamer>  GAWD!!!  That's sickening.  Do the dimwits think they'll snag
some SEGA gamers to our hobby by screwing up the historical accuracy?


MAK
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 441       Fri Oct 13, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 01:34 EDT

Perry,     Right click on desired hex to point unit in that direction.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 442       Fri Oct 13, 1995
DONDO                        at 01:42 EDT

Yeah, LOS is a mess.  But it's easy, so more fun, right?

Sorry gang, the more I play this, the more it looks and feels like PZG, just
on a smaller scale.  And hey, PzG did the "core unit" thing better in terms of
keeping track of what was going on with them.

I mean, have y'all invaded England yet?  Wotta crock.  Single file it through
the mines on the beach, stay off the roads, and ignore the infantry. In
another scenario, computer had all these Matildas, and they just let me waltz
in to the victory boxes, never moving and just shooting from about 25 hexes.
With consistently 2-5% hit chances.  I just put some jags on a hill, and
slowly picked them off.  That was a lot of fun:(.

The first Grigsby game I have ever been disappointed by.  I was surprized that
it wasn't called "Gary Grigsby's Steel Panthers" in big letters on the box
cover.  Maybe that was *his* decision, eh?

==Dondo [The emporor is bare assed naked]
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 443       Fri Oct 13, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 06:01 EDT

The abandoned enemy weapons need to be disabled/destroyed once your troops
enter the hex. No way would infantry leave an enemy crew weapon sitting around
undamaged for later use by any old crew unit that could get back to it.

I've seen the LOS bug. I've had an 88mm unit firing through three hexes of
trees and a bridge to shell a dug in infantry unit about 20 hexes away. Now
those are good spotters.

If you think those motorcycles are bad on knocking down buildings and towing
artillery, wait until you dismount the recon unit from them and load a regular
squad on them. I didn't know EVERYONE could ride a motorcycle....

Clearly there have been some compromises forced upon Gary in the construction
of this game. I was expecting something lightyears ahead of Panzer General in
realism while at the same time keeping playability, but as soon as those
combat film clips started showing up I began to worry. Then I massacred the
Poles and I thought, "maybe it's just an easy scenario".

Then I took the wrong side in a scenario. It was the one where the Finns are
defending a position from the Russian hordes. I was supposed to be the
Russkies but took the Finns anyway. The Russians were massacred; advancing
straight down the road without any attempt of flanking attacks.

Hopefully SSI will reconsider their policy of not allowing Gary to make
"unofficial" corrections to this program. I too am disappointed with the game
so far, but it all is not lost yet. It just needs some attention from Gary.

Are you listening, SSI?? Gary and Norm's programs have become the ONLY GAMES
from your company I buy any longer. If you are going to muzzle Gary then
you've lost a customer forever with me.

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 444       Fri Oct 13, 1995
W.JORDAN5 [ZOID]             at 08:55 EDT

>Games RoundTable
 >Category 25,  Topic 24
 >Message 422       Thu Oct 12, 1995
 >J.WIRTH                      at 07:40 EDT

>Things that aren't physically possible have no place in wargames.  SSI's
>pursuit of a wider market for wargames at the expense of historical (and >now
even physical) reality will in the long run have adverse consequences.

> Jim Wirth
 > ------------

Jim, Others,

  Agreed, in that there will be adverse consequences. They won't be for SSI,
however, but for us. I don't blame SSI in doing what's best for them as a
company (producing games that will appeal to the broadest market); yet I can
at the same time be unhappy that their doing so means that the rather tiny
portion of the market I often find myself a part of will lose thereby.
  I won't be surprised if in the (fairly) near future, we see the more serious
simulations being produced by minor publishers, or independents (a la S.
Hamilton) while the major publishers gravitate towards the programs that
appeal to the largest market, and offer the largest profit margins. We may not
like it, but we shouldn't be naive enough to blame them for "doing what is in
their nature to do".
  As far as SSI not realizing that we're wargamers rather than fantasy gamers,
I'm afraid they've realized exactly that. And that there's about 5 (or 50)
regular gamers out there (credit card in hand) for every grognard. I'm afraid
they've done the math <shrug>. Which do you think has the most subscribers,
the Sega channel, or the History channel? Hey, but just because the Cro
Magnons are overwhelming us with sheer numbers, doesn't mean we Neanderthals
(or was it the other way around? :) can't enjoy it while it lasts! ;^)

  FWIW, I'll buy SP for the same reasons I bought SF, WF, WIR, and PW. If it
ever shows up on the shelves here in Alaska, that is. ;)

Wes

ps. I'm looking forward to seeing (at least once) these arty towing, building
destroying, "Hogs of Destruction". What more could an old Harley rider ask
for? <chuckle>

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 445       Fri Oct 13, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 11:08 EDT

All,

As long as SSI plans to issue 'official' revisions to SP then I (or Keith)
will:

1. make the desired changes in the program
 2. submit the revised program to SSI for testing

After the testing proceedure is complete then SSI will post the program patch
ALL of major BBS providers.

At some point SSI will decide that official revisions are no longer required.
After that occurs I will be making revisions without SSI getting involved.
These will be unofficial patches that you can download and play 'at your
risk'.


The LOS problem you are describing is a bug (sort of). As originally designed
the LOS routine allowed you to look through a certain number of tree hexes. It
was assumed that these were not dense clumps of trees but widely spaced trees.
The developers at SSI wanted an LOS system that was more intuitive and that a
single tree hex should block a LOS. This change should have been made before
the game was released but was somehow overlooked.

I beleive the LOS system in the 1.0 version is valid but confusing.  I hope to
get this changed to a more intuitive system in the first revision.


Gary

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 446       Fri Oct 13, 1995
LEAGUES [FantasySport]       at 19:11 EDT

        Well, I play games to have FUN ... we KNOW Gary will bust his ass
        to make revisions ... we KNOW that SSI will eventually post those
        new patches on the RT ... and we KNOW that STEEL PANTHERS with
        minor bugs is STILL 100 times better than a lot of the crap that
        hits the marketplace nowadays ...

        Those of you who play these games expecting a 'game' to be 100%
        accurate need to try programing a game, finding someone to
        market it and then sell the game.  It isn't that easy, compromises
        ALWAYS have to be made, and NO SOFTWARE ever comes out free of
        bugs OR is satisfying to EVERY BUYER.

        Gary, it's a great GAME ... your dedication to fixing errors
        is well know, and I still plan to buy anything you program ...

        As long as you don't cave all the way and start writing BARNEY
        software ... I see anything purple on one of your games, and I'll
        never buy from you again ... <BIG GRIN>

                        Bill Highfield
                        St Cloud, Florida

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 447       Fri Oct 13, 1995
P.MEADOWS1 [HardRock]        at 19:26 EDT

 Darn! Damn! I like the LOS thru 3 hexes of widely spaced trees!
 Much more realistic than the old "one tree block LOS" method.

 Infact I feel like I've been waiting all these years for the technolgy to
 incorporate that kind of LOS. (We've all seen tanks firing thru some spaced
 trees)


 SSI, Intuitive?  You have the targeting cursor or LOS key....'taint too
 hard to use 2-3 trees to block LOS.


 Bob, I hear ya:)  (aka Pete..from our Atari vs IBM "WIR"  discussion on *P:)


 Haven't had the time to play a lot so I'm behind on the easy AI
 discussion:) I started a long campaign and was able to get (2) 88's.
 Two T28c's dug in on a hill with mines in front did manage to do a job on
 my hastly advance however;)

 The good news!  Gary will work on this after SSI gives their final.
 Thanks dude:)
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 448       Fri Oct 13, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 19:42 EDT

Gary,

It's good that you are going to have some latitude to tinker. Best news I've
heard so far. Please add these to your tinker list...

1. LOS bug - not limited to trees, but even units on flat level 0 terrain road
hex can't see 3 hexes in front of them. Seems the entire LOS algorithm needs
some work.

2. In long campaign, the chances for assault/pursuit/defend, etc, should be
modified more heavily by the date. Example: it's 42, I'm playing the Germans
on the Eastern front, and to date I've only had ONE attack mission as the
Germans. All the rest have been defend.

3. It seems that units should have a bit more likelihood of routing from
burning hexes. It just would feel more "right" this way.

4. Motorcycles and trucks shouldn't be able to drive through structures. AFV's
that _do_ should have a higher chance of throwing a track, etc. I've yet to
get one immobilized AFV from doing so..

5. I have occasionally been firing at the rear of a unit and somehow managed
to hit the front. Odd...

6. Change the sound effect of flamethrowers - it sounds just like a satchel
charge. Just chrome, but what the heck, shouldn't be too tough.

7. Make the German 88's a bit more expensive. There were never enough of these
to go around, and in small engagements like these, they are too dominant.

8. We need to see a recon map before beginning the next scenario in campaigns.

9. I've noticed that a cheat you can use to rally broken squads/AT guns is
simply to load them onto a vehicle then dismount them. They appear to take on
the moral level of the vehicle.

10. AT guns, Flak guns, etc, should not be able to drive down the road 7 or 8
hexes, dismount, fire 2 or 3 times at a unit, load back up, and drive back to
safety. Depending on the size of the gun, (and the 88 apparently had a longer
than average setup time), this should cost movement points to the towing unit.
Of course, I guess this depends on how long each turn is supposed to
represent. I don't recall seeing this in the manual anywhere.

11. Does the computer arty cheat ? It sure seems to find my mortars, even when
I have them hopelessly hidden behind hills, trees, etc....

12. Mounted infantry should dismount when the AFV fires it's weapons.


Questions: When you click on the unit data icon, you get list of all your
units. Some of the stats are different colors, eg, red, yellow, etc. What do
the different colors signify ?

2. When you kill enemy units, for example, it will say "2 men killed (6) "
 What does the 6 mean ? I had thought that it meant 6 men left, but when I
checked found that this wasn't the case. Also, when you get an AFV kill, you
will see a series of >>>>>>>>>> next to the report. What are these ?


I am _still_ loving this game. Given time and Gary's persistence, this will
be, IMO, the best computer game of ALL TIME.

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 449       Fri Oct 13, 1995
D.WOODARD5 [DougW]           at 19:46 EDT

************* Long phiosphical post ***********

Wes,

I agree with your post. I am a hard core beleiver in supply and demand. The
posters here are very vocal, but lets face it we do not generate much demand.
I remember a few years ago gaming magizines predicting the death of wargames.
Personnally I think this current "trend" is a positve. Here are some reasons:

1) Simpler and "fun" wargames will spawn some serious wargamers. If 100,000
people buy Panzer General perhaps 5-10% will look for the next level.

2) The larger the total wargame market is the more incentive for companies
especially smaller ones will try to carve a niche out of it.

3) One might argue that you can continue to buy "heavy" wargames that emphaize
historical and accurate weapons etc. HPS comes to mind. Your choice.

Now I'll give a couple of possibilites that might happen.

1) A flashy, good looking game is tweaked and patched by the orginal author so
that the "heavy" wargamer is actually happy. Well maybe not happy, but he
doesn't grumble as much.

2) Same as above but program is tweaked by outsiders (i.e. Stratfalc)

3) Designer of a "light" wargame makes a lot of money which allows him/her to
design a "heavy" wargame.

******** Comments on SP ***************

Really whipping the AI 10:1 margins are common. Been trying to think of ways
to make some nail biters. Couple ideas:

1) Go into the editor and reduce the amount of victory hexes. This might allow
two things in that the computer might get less confused and these hexes seem
to be worth a lot of points. Less of them would put more emphasis on unit
losses.

2) Go into the editor and give the computer more units. Do not like that one
as it takes away the "Fog of War"

3) Voluntarily takes less core and supprt units.

Whew.... that's enough

Doug
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 450       Fri Oct 13, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 19:50 EDT

Hard Rock -

I too like the fact that one hex of trees don't block line of sight. My grip
is units that are sitting in the clear, level ground can't see three hexes in
front of them. I was comparing this to being able to see through 3 hexes of
trees across a ridge for absurdity purposes only. If trees are not the
automatic barrier to LOS like they are in most games, I'd like to know,
however, how many woods hexes _will_ impede LOS. But you are right, tanks
often fired through thinly populated woods. It should merely adjust the to hit
% accordingly, but not block LOS altogether unless there are several woods
hexes in a row.

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 451       Fri Oct 13, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 20:20 EDT

Viking: Thanks

 John Lansford: We've had a lot of trouble with the Reveal card (relative to
others, in general our sound works 99%+).  I'd be happy to look at your
autoexec.bat and config.sys files to see what I can see.  Most likely, it's
the Reveal card's "100% SB Compatibility" which is (IMO) not 100%.

 Agent/Others: The long campaign is a string of RANDOM scenarios.  If this is
not what you are looking to play, choose some other campaign.

 Gurske: I can only reiterate this so many times :) Gary was NOT told not to
do unofficial updates.  He simply has to complete our official update first.
Once SSI has determined that the game is ok, Gary can tweak his code to your
heart's content.  Nobody told Gary not to do updates. Period.

 P.Chin: The battle generator gives the second player as many points as the
first player spent.

 J.Wirth: Two words, game balance.  The fact that you cannot discern the
reason for the changes, does not mean that they were not made for good reason.
We've been making games for a long time, and I believe that we have something
to contribute even if you don't agree with me

 All: I'll post the stats for some of the Tanks armor penetration and that in
about 2 hours..

 Matt S.
 SSI
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 453       Fri Oct 13, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 22:59 EDT

I've narrowed down at least one aspect of the LOS problem. With regard to
being able to see straight down a road hex, this only seems to be a problem if
there are trees along side the road. And even then, it seems sporadic.
Sometimes you can see the hex adjacent, then 2 hexes are blind, then the 4th,
5th and 6th hex down the road are visible. Most often, you can see the hex
adjacent, no further down the road, and a group of hexes at @45 degree angle
off either side of the road thru the trees. Annoying to set up an AT gun on a
road expecting it to "control" that road, as AT guns were often employed, only
to find that you control merely the hex in front of you, and some wheatfields
several hundred yards away from the road.


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 454       Fri Oct 13, 1995
PAS.JPD [Jaded Gamer]        at 23:11 EDT

Wolfgang -- When an infantry units takes a hit and it says "2 men killed (6)"
it means that thus far, the unit has now lost 6 men.  It's a cumulative
report.

Jaded

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 455       Sat Oct 14, 1995
P.MEADOWS1 [HardRock]        at 00:43 EDT

 Long Campaign: June '41 Russian front.
 1st battle:
 Destroyed a Russian hill defense 10:1 in points

 I think I'm gonna have to drop my 88's to get some competition.

 One complaint I initially had (and still do) is the dark color of the
 graphics. It needs a little more light ala PG (tho not as much). Tough to
 see some hexes with the little brown men in them:)

 Notice the road LOS bug myself. WG is right...gotta have our AT's lookin'
 down a road:)

 LOS gotta be uno #1 for patch.

 -HR
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 456       Sat Oct 14, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 01:06 EDT

Hardrock,     Had the same problem seeing the enemy, turned on the Unit I. D.
Tags, helps a lot.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 457       Sat Oct 14, 1995
V.MILAN [Vic]                at 02:52 EDT

Perr Dog => SMGs are not the same as "assault rifles." The first German units
were equipped with SMGs [MP38 & others] in the late '30s, as, I believe, were
Brits [the Sten] & other nations.  If it's really important, I can look it up
in SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD.

Anyway, what the Germans began using in '44 [or maybe '43] was the
_Sturmgewehr,_ the forerunner of the modern assault rifle.

An SMG or machine pistol [which are not the same thing, except when they are]
uses a pistol-caliber round; the Sten & the MP38/40 used 9mm Parabellum, the
American Tommy gun .45 ACP.  An assault rifle fires a round more powerful than
a pistol, but less powerful than a full-sized rifle round.

===

I don't see why there is a problem with game complexity.  The obvious solution
is to have graded realism levels [from PLEASE DON'T HURT ME to I AM DEATH
INCARNATE, say].  Isn't that what Norm's doing with RIFLES?  Set the default
at Butt Simple, for the...less committed...& then allow the player to max
everything from fog of battle to realism of movement rates.

Maybe the hard-core gamers are not that big a share of the marketplace.  But
they're still a share.  If SSI decides to cut them off, it'll be worth someone
else's while to entice away their dollars with a product attractive to them.
But would it really be that hard for SSI to have it all - a B&P game for the
PzG crowd, a hard-core game for the grognards, in the same package.

BTW, hasn't Matt said that SSI would _not_ stand in the way of Gary doing his
own "unofficial" patches after the official one is finished?  If that's so,
it's time for all of us to climb off their backs on that particular issue.

Gary's 445 seems to've confirmed this.  And thanks, Gary, for your promise of
continued support.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 458       Sat Oct 14, 1995
LAST.RONIN [Kato]            at 07:01 EDT

  [Kato sits back with popcorn in hand to watch Wirth and SSI square off. As
if it was a big time wrestling event, everytime SSI appears, he's treated to
the crowd booing and hooting (with the occasional catcall); it's obvious who's
the black hat, here!]

Funny, Dale. Unless I'm misremembering, immobilized vehicles CAN rotate, and I
think that's a bit bogus! Once a track's shot off, that tank hull is going
nowhere by itself!

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 459       Sat Oct 14, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 09:43 EDT

I agree with HardRock -- a single tree, or the first tree, should NOT block
LOS.  There is just too much space around that tree to hide an advancing squad
or King Tiger.  With respect to the trees, I like the LOS just the way it is.

I do wish, however, that Gary or SSI would explain the effects of elevation on
LOS.  I had a squad on Elevation 0 terrain, the target on Elevation 0 terrain
four hexes away, and a single Elevation 1 hex adjacent to the firer. The
higher ground did not block the LOS.  That confused me far more than the tree
situation.

Great game -- and btw I am having no problems running it at medium install on
my 486-33 with 4x CD-ROM.

John Lansford -- I too have a Reveal sound card, so I was worried when I saw
your post.  However, I have not had any problems with mine.

Stu
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 460       Sat Oct 14, 1995
D.MEERDINK [Dale]            at 09:45 EDT



   Kato: That's what I said, "Immobilized vehicles should not be allowed to
pivot within the hex."

                                                 Dale

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 461       Sat Oct 14, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 11:51 EDT

P.Andrus: I've replied just this morning :)

 Regarding the data that I've promised you all.  I'll have that up soon.  A
software problem prevented me from uploading last night, I think I've got it
taken care of.  If I can't post it here, I'll send the file with the stats to
the library.

 Matt S.
 SSI


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 462       Sat Oct 14, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 13:06 EDT

Kato,

 Black hats & white hats?  Jim Wirth vs SSI?  I think you casting my
disagreements with Matt in too adversarial a role.  I would like to think of
myself as an advocate of SSI not and adversary.  I want SSI to produce the
highest quality games possible.  When the subject is an historical wargame, I
think historical accuracy is part of that quality.  My criticisms with design
decisions are always intended to be CONSTRUCTIVE.  If I overstated my case to
the point where people think I'm attacking SSI, then I apologize to Matt and
to SSI.

 I firmly believe that there is room in the hobby for a range of complexity in
wargames.  There is nothing wrong with making a game like PANZER GENERAL, but
a diet of nothing but PANZER GENERALs is no more healthy for the hobby than a
diet of nothing but beer and pretzels is for a person.  Maintaining product
diversity is the best way to insure the LONG RUN profitability of SSI and the
health of the hobby.

 Matt (SSI SUPPORT),

 As you can see from above, I reallyam speaking with SSI's best interest in
mind.  Nevertheless, let's shake hands electronically and put our past
differences behind us.  I promise to make no further comments that could be
characterized as "cheap shots" at SSI if you'll promise to occasionally admit
that as historical researcher and playtester from day one, I know a little bit
about what I am talking about.

 Jay,

 As I promised, I researched the SPW-250.  This vehicle went into service in
June of 1941.  Apparently the date of a prototype was used when PANZER STRIKE
was originally designed and this error was carried over into STEEL PANTHERS
without question.  I must admit to never catching it myself even though my
primary source showed the correct date.  This is an abject lesson in never
taking anything for granted.  Hopefully we can get the patch under preparation
to include OB corrections so this error can be finally fixed.

 Everyone,

 As my comments to Jay illustrate, I welcome any questions/corrections anyone
can offer on any historical aspects of the game.  While I can't promise
anything, if as above, you find a mistake I'll do my best to see it gets
fixed.

 Jim Wirth
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 463       Sat Oct 14, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 13:28 EDT

Some cool things that have happened:

1. I had a PZ-IV sitting on a bridge. Russian arty pounded the bridge, the
bridge collapsed, and the tank hit the drink. Crew managed to get out....

2. I had another tank crew, lead by none other than our very own HiFi, get
knocked out of their tank. The crew routed to a woods hex, eventually rallied,
and after some long range pounding by a PZ-IIIj (manned by Johnny Reb, no
less) upon a T-34/76A whose crew felt like ditching, Hifi and his crew pistol
whipped said T-34 crew.

3. PZ-IIIj sitting on a hill, Russian 152mm arty hits just below slope line in
snow. Snow slide ensues, and PZ-IIIj slides down the hill with it !!
 (just kidding!)

Sabre and I are pbem'ing the Korsun Pocket scenario. Battle results to follow.
The good news is that the 512k data files zip down to about 37k for PBEM
purposes.....


Wolfgang out...



 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 464       Sat Oct 14, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 13:32 EDT

Just noticed something else when starting a saved game.Besides restoring
knocked out guns on vehicles, the number of turns indicating the game length
increases.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 465       Sat Oct 14, 1995
MO.MORGAN                    at 13:59 EDT

Dondo,

Ever play around with that barge carriers screen?  Yeah, there are two parts;
one the barge carriers and the other an engineer squad but when you click on
either one then go "Buy" you get the standard load--two trucks with barges and
two halftracks with engineers.  I reset the campaign and bought barge carriers
and everything worked great.  Maybe I was trying to launch the barges into
shallow (light) water.  When I tried to move the trucks into deep water,
voila!

I just played a real kickass North Africa battle (from long campaign) and for
once I had a real tense armor battle--I haven't seen many tanks in Poland or
France in the early campaigns.  I had some engineers mounted on an armored car
and drove up next to a buttoned up Grant tank and dismounted the engineers.
They threw a satchel charge on the tank and...

B O O M ! ! !    (I love it!)

This game RULES!

Mo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 466       Sat Oct 14, 1995
B.MILLER31 [Brad Miller]     at 14:36 EDT

Gary G./SSI,

I am enjoying this game very much, however I discovered an interesting bug
while playing the Market Garden Campaign. During the second scenario I left
the computer place my forces. Everything was fine except that it placed all of
my Sherman V tanks in the middle of the river. They functioned ok but I was
unable to move them because, of course, you can't move a tank (at least not
these tanks) through water.

Brad
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 467       Sat Oct 14, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 15:46 EDT

Jim Wirth: You definitely know your stuff.  Gary and SSI are both happy to
have your assistance whenever you offer.

 There may have been a difference or two, but we can disagree.  I just want to
keep it constructive.

 So people, how would you all like some STATS?  Hmm?  I thought so.

 Here is what we've completed.  All will be done for the v1.1 revision, more
will be posted as I have it.

 I realize that you all want the file instead of having to reformat and print
this.  I'll post it when it's nearer to completion.

 Enjoy fellow SP players.

 Steel Panthers Tank Chart.

 Ratings Key:

 A= Excellent tank with very good armor and weapons. Keep this tank.
 B= Good tank with above average armor and weapons. Ok for now.
 C= Average tank with average to below average armor and weapons.
    May want to consider upgrading the tank.
 D= Poor tank with poor armor and under gunned.
    Should replace tank with newer model otherwise crew will have
    short and violent lives.
 - = Tank not available at this time.
 Max Pen = Max unmodified AP round penetration for this weapon.
 Rang = Max range in hexes for this weapon.

 Roles:

 Inf Support= This means that the tank is design to kill soft targets
 only. Not very useful against tanks.

 Anti-tank=  This means that the tank is designed to kill tanks or
 hard targets. It has limited use against infantry or soft targets.

 SPA= This tank is a self propelled artillery tank. Mobile artilley,
 useful against soft targets only.

 AA= This tank is designed to shoot at aircraft.

 Recon= This tank or vehicle is design to scout and look around the
 battlefield. Not intended to shoot it out with the enemy.

 German Tanks
                   Year Ratings
 Name:      39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Gun   Max Pen  Rng  Role         Cost

 Pz-Ib      C   D                       MG's    0      10   Inf Support  3
 Pz-IIc     B   C   D                   20L55   6      20   Anti-tank    5
 Pz-IIL     -   C   C   D               20L55   6      20   Recon    6
 Pz-IIIE    A   B   C   D               37L46   7      30   Anti-tank    9
 Pz-IIIG    -   A   B   D               50L42   8      30   Anti-tank    10
 Pz-IIIH    -   A   B   C   D           50L42   8      30   Anti-tank    11
 Pz-IIIJ    -   -   A   B   D           50L60   9      30   Anti-tank    12
 Pz-IIIM    -   -   -   B   C           50L60   9      30   Anti-tank    13
 Pz-IIIN    -   -   -   B   C           75L24   6      30   Inf Support  10
 Pz-38t     B   B   C   D               37L46   7      30   Anti-tank    7
 Pz-35(t)   B   C   D                   37L40   5      30   Anti-tank    7
 Pz-IVc     B   B   C   C               75L24   6      30   Inf Support  8
 Pz-IVe     -   B   B   C               75L24   6      30   Inf Support  9
 Pz-IVf2    -   -   -   B   C           75L43   13     50   Anti-tank    14
 Pz-IVg     -   -   -   -   B   B   C   75L48   14     50   Anti-tank    13
 Pz-IVh     -   -   -   -   -   B   B   75L48   14     50   Anti-tank    15
 Panther    -   -   -   -   A   A   B   75L70   19     60   Anti-tank    25
 Tiger      -   -   -   A   A   A   B   88L56   17     60   Anti-tank    30
 King Tiger -   -   -   -   -   A   A   88L71   22     60   Anti-tank    50
 Brumbar    -   -   -   -   A   A   A   150L10  0      50   Inf Support  15
 Stug-IIIb  B   B   C   D               75L24   6      30   Inf Support  8
 Stug-H42   -   -   -   A   B   B   B   105L30  0      40   Inf Support  13
 Stug-IIIg  -   -   -   -   B   B   C   75L48   14     50   Anti-tank    11
 Stug-IV    -   -   -   -   B   B   C   75L48   14     50   Anti-tank    12
 Jpz-I      -   C   D                   47L43   8      30   Anti-tank    7
 PzJagd-38  -   -   -   C   C           76L51   13     50   Anti-tank    11
 Marder     -   -   -   B   C   D       76L51   13     50   Anti-tank    10
 Marder II  -   -   -   B   B   D       75L48   14     50   Anti-tank    11
 Maeder III -   -   -   -   C   D       75L48   14     50   Anti-tank    9
 Nashorn    -   -   -   -   B   B   B   88L71   22     60   Anti-tank    16
 Hetzer     -   -   -   -   A   B   B   75L48   14     50   Anti-tank    10
 JPZ-IV/70  -   -   -   -   -   A   B   75L70   19     60   Anti-tank    15
 Jagdpanther    -   -   -   -   A   A   88L71   22     60   Anti-tank    35
 Elefant    -   -   -   -   B   B       88L71   22     60   Anti-tank    40
 Jagdtiger  -   -   -   -   -   -   A   128L58  22     80   Anti-tank    60
 Sig33      -   -   -   C   C   C       150L10  3      50   Inf Support  9
 Wespe      -   -   B   B   C   C   C   105mm   0      40   SPA          12
 Hummel     -   -   -   B   B   B   B   150mm   2      50   SPA          15
 Lorraine   -   B   B   C   C   C   C   150mm   3      130  SPA          15
 Wirblewind -   -   -   -   -   A   A   20mm    3      30   AA           11
 Ostwind    -   -   -   -   -   B   B   37mm    6      40   AA           12
 Gw-38t     -   B   B   C               150L10  3      50   Inf Support  10
 Sdk-221    C   C   D                   MG's    0      10   Recon        3
 Sdk-222    B   C   D      20L55   6      20   Recon        5
 Sdk-231    B   B   C   C   -   -   -   20L55   6      20   Recon        5
 Sdk-234    -   -   B   B   C   C       20L55   6      20   Recon        6
 Puma       -   -   -   -   B   C   D   50L60   9      30   Recon        9
 Sdk-234/3  -   -   B   C   C   C       75L24   6      30   Recon        10
 Sdk-234/4  -   -   -   -   -   C   C   75L48   14     50   Recon        12


 Russian Tanks
                   Year Ratings
 Name:      39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Gun    Max Pen  Rng  Role        Cost

 BT-5       C   C   D                   45L46     7     25   Anti-tank   5
 BT-7       B   C   C   D               45L46     7     25   Anti-tank   6
 BT-7A      B   B   C   D               76L26     5     30   Anti-tank   7
 T-26S      B   C   D   D               45L46     7     25   Anti-tank   5
 T-60       -   -   C   D   D           20L55     6     20   Recon       6
 T-70       -   -   -  C   C   D   D   45L46     7     25   Recon       8
 T-28C      B   B   C   D               76L26     5     30   Anti-tank   12
 T-35       B   B   B   C               76L16     6     30   Anti-tank   25
 KV-1       A   A   B   C               76L35     8     30   Anti-tank   15
 KV-1C      -   A   A   B               76L41     9     40   Anti-tank   18
 KV-85      -   -   -   -   B   B       85L53     13    50   Anti-tank   20
 KV-IIA     A   A   B                   152L20    0     50   Inf Support 20
 JS-II      -   -   -   -   -   A    B  122L43    20    60   Anti-tank   25
 JS-III     -   -   -   -   -   -    A  122L43    20    60   Anti-tank   30
 T-34/76A   -   A   A   B   C           76L35     8     30   Anti-tank   12
 T-34/76B   -   -   A   B   C           76L41     9     40   Anti-tank   12
 T-34/76C   -   -   A   B   C   D       76L41     9     40   Anti-tank   11
 T-34/85    -   -   -   -   B   B   C   85L53     13    50   Anti-tank   14
 SU-45      C   C   D                   45L46     7     25   Anti-tank   6
 SU-76      -   B   C   D               76L41     9     40   Anti-tank   8
 SU-85      -   -   -   -   B   B       85L53     13    50   Anti-tank   12
 SU-100     -   -   -   -   -   A   B   100L60    21    60   Anti-tank   20
 JSU-122    -   -   -   -   -   A   B   122L43    20    60   Anti-tank   20
 SU-122     -   -   -   -   A   A   B   122L22    6     40   Inf Support 13
 SU-152     -   -   -   -   A   A   B   152L32    3     50   Inf Support 15
 JSU-152    -   -   -   -   -   A   A   152L32    3     50   Inf Support 16
 BA-10      C   C   D                   45L46     7     25   Recon       8
 BA-64      -   C   C   C   D   D   D   20L55     6     20   Recon       6


 American Tanks
                   Year Ratings
 Name:      39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Gun    Max Pen  Rng  Role        Cost

 M2A4       -   C   C   D               37L53     9     30   Recon       8
 M3 Stuart  -   -   B   C   D           37L53     9     30   Recon       9
 M5 Stuart  -   -   -   B   BC   D  37L53     9     30   Recon       9
 M24        -   -   -   -   -    B   C  75L38     10    40   Recon       10
 M3A1 Lee   -   -   -   B   C           37L53     9     30   Anti-tank   11
 M4A1 Sher  -   -   -   B   C    D      75L38     10    40   Anti-tank   11
 M4A3 Sher  -   -   -   B   C    D   D  75L38     10    40   Anti-tank   11
 M4A3E8     -   -   -   -   -    B   C  76L54     12    50   Anti-tank   12
 Jumbo      -   -   -   -   -    B   B  75L38     10    40   Anti-tank   18
 T26 Persh  -   -   -   -   -    -   A  90L50     16    60   Anti-tank   24
 M10 Wolv   -   -   -   B   C    C   D  76L54     12    50   Anti-tank   12
 M18 Hell   -   -   -   -   B    C   D  76L54     12    50   Anti-tank   11
 M36 Jack   -   -   -   -   -    B   B  90L50     16    60   Anti-tank   14
 Sherman FLame  -   -   B   B    C   C  Flame     0     2    Inf Support 20
 Sherman 105    -   -   B   B    C   C  105L30    0     50   Inf Support 13
 M7 Preist  -   -   -   B   B    C   C  105mm     0     130  SPA         9
 M12 GMC    -   -   -   -   B    B   B  155mm     3     130  SPA         15
 M8 Grayhnd -   -   -   B   B    C   D  37L53     9     30   Recon       7
 M20        -   -   C   C   D    D      .50 MG    3     20   Recon       5

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 468       Sat Oct 14, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 15:53 EDT

Engineers will clear mines if in the same hex but will NOT clear mines while
facing the minefield from an adjacent hex.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 469       Sat Oct 14, 1995
J.PORTER [Tombstone]         at 16:17 EDT

   A buddy & I played a marathon of PBEM last night (bout 8 hrs straight) and
 we noticed some strange things we hadn't seen in solo play.

  1. The smoke & fire effects wouldn't appear unless a unit was made to fire
     smoke on that turn...then it would all appear at once. Made it kinda
     tricky figuring the best LOS positions for units til ya popped some
     smoke.

  2. On occasion, a unit would not be able to move the full amount of move-
     ment that was indicated by the lighter shading. The unit would just
     stop one hex short of its destination.

  3. After calling an airstrike, the delay would be greater than indicated
     in the indirect fire menu. I had a large number of his panzers targeted
     by my P-47's (thinking: he's toast! <g>) only to watch them avoid the
     major brunt of the attack. It's difficult enough to guess where to
     place the airstrike without having a further delay than anticipated.

  4. When an enemy leader is killed it promptly informs you of that fact &
     even lets ya know who the new leader is. (Opening a large amount of
     ridicule aimed at the new "dweeb" in charge of those troops <g>)

   I'd -really- like to be able to see all the turns that occur in a PBEM
 scenario instead of being limited to just viewing my turns. In fact, I'd
 prefer to be able to hook up over the modem & play direct. Fortuantly, we
 have 28.8 modems (over 10,000 cps average) so the transfer time isn't bad,
 but it's still a hassle to have to exit out of the game, fire up the modem,
 receive the download, run the batch file that copies it to the game..etc.

  Outside of a few bugs, this truly is an outstanding game. I can see me
 wasting lots more time on it. <g>

                "Tombstone"






 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 470       Sat Oct 14, 1995
J.HEBERT3                    at 16:55 EDT

 Couple of minor bugs I don't remember seeing mentioned. In the 3rd
 scenario (maybe 4th) of a short campaign vs. Poland, when I clicked on
 the artillery button, I got a whole string of grey selection boxes all
 the way down the middle of the screen (and off the bottom). About the
 third one down said "Fortifications" and clicking on that allowed me
 to buy bunkers. Clicking on others took me to the buy screen but there
 was nothing to buy. The game didn't crash, just looked funny.

 After saving a game and entering my own name, when I went to load the
 game, the name was the default name suggested by the computer, not the
 one I entered. The game loaded correctly (except for the # of turns
 bug that others have reported), but I'm glad I remembered which slot I
 had used. I do find it odd that the "# of Turns" bug is so common yet
 escaped notice during testing.

 Also, I had the sound effects go freaky on me; fixed it by going into
 SOUNDSET and re-selecting the digital effects settings. BTW, the settings
 were correct when I entered SOUNDSET, but selecting them again fixed
 the problem.

 Let me add my voice to those who think that units should not be able
 to load/unload, move, and shoot in the same turn. If SSI doesn't like
 fixing this, maybe Gary will put it on his list for his first unofficial
 patch.

 Now back to enjoying the game...
 --- Joe H.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 471       Sat Oct 14, 1995
D.BURDEN1 [Andy]             at 18:53 EDT

I have a technical question for anyone (like SSI, maybe).  What is with the
requirement for an uncompressed hard drive?  Most of my drive is compressed,
and most of it is being used.  I deeply yearn to own this game, but I can't
have it because I can't free up enough drive space to uncompress (not that I
even know how to do that).  There have been a few SSI releases recently that I
wanted but had to pass on because of this.  Those other disappointments I
could live, but not _this_!  Why?!!  Am I the only person out there with a
compressed drive?  Granted my drive is laughably small, but that should make
no difference.  I have _never_ seen another piece of software that required
uncompressed hard drive space (though I don't doubt they are out there), other
than those by SSI.  Am I the only one out there that can't (or won't) buy a
game because of this?  Can someone offer a semi-technical explanation as to
why a hard drive should be uncompressed for a piece of software to work?  if
disk compression is as common as I think it is, then why do they do this?
        Andy
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 472       Sat Oct 14, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 18:58 EDT

Matt,


Thank you immensely ! Now, have you ever heard of Sysiphus <sp?> - Please tell
me what the penetration numbers (unmodified, as you indicated) mean when
indexed with range. This is the crux of penetration, really. If there is a
standard modifier, say, +3 for penetration when point blank, then you compare
the modified pen factor with the armor rating, and if superior, then BINGO,
this is the kind of stuff that us true anally retentive grogs want. At least I
do. Again, thanks for the info... Much appreciated, but a little more fleshing
out is needed...


Wolfgang

PS: Sabre and I are trying a PBEM game. There are some questions arising.
First, when I selected Korsun Pocket scenario. I then picked both sides as
human. I took my turn, hit the end-turn button, and saved. When he got the
turn, the Russians (his side) were set to human but the Germans were set to
computer. If someone who has succeeded at playing by EMAIL could enlighten us
on the nuances we would really appreciate it....


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 473       Sun Oct 15, 1995
R.ROBBERSON1 [Highlander]    at 01:55 EDT

A couple of interesting bugs:

1) A armored car crew routed, then rallied. Moving them back into the battle,
I discovered they had enough sense to take the armored car's guns with them
when they routed. I got the gun sound effects everytime the crew fired. Not
sure if they were firing with the AC's weapons or if the sound effect does not
change just because the crew is no longer in the car.

Also, since this is a long campaign I am playing, this crew was kept in the
core units and tagged along sans AC on the next scenario.

2) If you save with smoke on the map, then when you reload the save game, the
smoke does not appear. It will appear after the conclusion of the first turn
you play, and it seems that the LOS and fire modifications are still being
applied, it just isn't drawn on the screen after the initial reload.

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 474       Sun Oct 15, 1995
ECHOBEACH [Rick]             at 01:57 EDT

        ======= To: R.GURSKE1 [bob]              =======

  > Would a ten man infantry squad really be able to hide  in
  >  open ground, even if dug in, within 50 yards of an unbuttoned tank or
  > APC?

Open Ground does not a golf course make... I would say Yes, and hope there is
a random chance (15-25%, say?) that the unit would be spotted in the course of
a game turn.


  > Also, as someone mentioned before, it would be REAL nice if we could get
  > a look at the map before buying our support units before each battle.
  > Terrain type should play a rather large role in your force composition,
  > I would think.

I hope Gary/SSI is putting this thought on their list of priorities.


        ======= To: SSI.SUPPORT                  =======

  > Mr Grigsby is dedicated enough to do many patches  for a game like
  > Pacwar.  This is fine if he is going to release these online  with a
  > "Hey this is untested" disclaimer.

Are you giving Mr G permission to do this with SP?  Would you like to see
grown men get down on their knees begging and pledging unending fealty to SSI
and their products?  Just a thought.

  >  We (SSI) are an incorporated company, there is no way that we can
  > release  patches which are untested.

This is hogwash... a simple "straw man" argument.  Wargamers may not be a huge
portion of the gaming public but we are very loyal to those companies, people
and programs that help us pursue our hobby enjoyably.  SSI could easily raise
its' standing among our small community by helping Mr G do what he did so well
with PACW and WIR; perfecting his product.

SSI has lost a lot of credibility since the old KampGruppe series days... More
than a few of the titles released since are engraved on the lavatory wall in
the Wargame "Hall Of Shame". We -want- to see your company prosper and very
much want to see people like Gary Grigsby encouraged and enabled to continue
working in our software genre.  Mr G is in some ways the Eric Clapton of
computer wargaming; please give him the artistic freedom a journeyman such as
he needs and deserves.  Try a little humility; if I was a software publisher
instead of a lowly sometime-programmer and had Gary Grigsby working on a
product for my concern I would feel Damn Lucky.  Please don't get in the way
of Garys dedication, we love him for it.

We will remember if you do so... and we will remember if you don't.


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 475       Sun Oct 15, 1995
LAST.RONIN [Kato]            at 06:05 EDT

  I'd really love to see my troops display a bit more common sense (or
reality) when it comes to moral influences. For a squad (whose leader
apparently doesn't have the leadership to even take his troopies to McDonalds
during lunchtime) to become more and more suppressed simply because I can't
move it away from a burning vehicle seems a bit silly. Here the battle's long
passed by, there are no enemy in sight, and the troops keep getting more and
more terrified...so they huddle in more tightly around their flaming wreckage?
I don't think so!

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 476       Sun Oct 15, 1995
LAST.RONIN [Kato]            at 06:44 EDT

  Oh. Gotcha, Dale. Must have misread. Then we could go even MORE realistic:
an engine immobility kill means no hull OR turret pivoting, and a track
immobility kill means no hull, but the turret CAN turn. <g>

Jim:
 I don't think you're being too adversarial at all. But it almost seems that
everytime someone posts a criticism of the game design, SSI pops up with a
defensive post refuting the opinion and touting its decision making process
(which seems flawed to everyone BUT SSI). I was just finding it amusing that
the customers here really like a product, but are a bit irked because it could
have been much better with a couple of changes here and there; while the
company keeps trying to bludgeon them with an attitude that seems to be: we
did it for your own good, we know what you need, and you WILL like it. We know
what's best for you. <shrugs>

Any idea when direct modem play will be available? PBEM is such a hassle that
I can't see it being worthwhile.

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 477       Sun Oct 15, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 09:46 EDT

Kato,

A tank that has lost ONE track could still turn in a circle.  That concept has
been stretched to include ALL immobilized units.  When a tank is immobilized
for any reason, it's speed is set to zero.  Currently the system allows for
speed zero units to turn freely (even abandoned ones, oops).  The rules for
turning 'immobilized' vehicles will be reviewed and adjusted to avoid the
discrepancies you have discribed.


All,

Both Keith and myself are currently working on the STEEL PANTHERS version
1.01.  This revision is the ONLY project that I am current working on.  The
FIRST revision will NOT address all of the bugs/discrepancies you have
described in the last two weeks - but it will be a significant move in that
direction.


Gary

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 478       Sun Oct 15, 1995
J.PORTER [Tombstone]         at 11:01 EDT

  Wolfgang, re: PBEM play - You need to select human opponent everytime you
 load the email file. Otherwise the computer takes the following turn.

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 479       Sun Oct 15, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 12:27 EDT

Wow. Another cool war story. I had a few extra points so I bought 3 snipers. I
had 2 of them shinny up into some oak trees along a road that was a probable
line of advance (Rostov, 42, delaying action). After a few turns of
preliminary bombardment and smoke shelling, the Sov armor starts rumbling up
to engage my units, across the river. I had been shelling the only bridge, and
a direct hit from one of my Lorraine's knocked the bridge out. The snipers
were on their own. As the first section of T-34's rumbled up toward the
bridge, they came right down the road between my 2 snipers. One of the guys
(who will receive the Iron Cross posthumously) lobbed a grenade down into the
hatch and disabled the tank ! Unfortunately, after doing so his life was
short, but the other sniper managed to escape and is now a few hundred yards
downstream trying to regain the German lines. This game _is_ excellent, in
spite of the minor problems. It sure is a major productivity drain. I haven't
got anything at all done this weekend, except for fighting some tooth & nail
action on the Eastern front, 42. Can't WAIT til I get some Tigers... Rumor has
it that the first PzKw VI's should be arriving on the next supply trains from
Germany - if I can manage to hold on to the rail head...<g>.


Wolgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 480       Sun Oct 15, 1995
M.KENNEDY20 [MAK]            at 14:32 EDT

All-

Four reasons I will buy this game just a soon as I have a machine that will
run it-

1- Gary's support will no doubt make this game better and better.

2- Its obvious most on this topic like the game (or they wouldn't spend the
time complaining, they'd just return it and be done with it).

3- I really need a good basis for my complaining.

4- My wife.


MAK


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 481       Sun Oct 15, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 15:23 EDT

Campaign update:

Eastern Front, Stalingrad. German delaying action (again!). This is the
beginning of the 13th campaign scenario in the long campaign. So far, I have
had 10 decisive victories and 2 marginals. Campaign score is 35. The last one
was a _blast_. It was a delaying action in Stalingrad (yea, I'm still there...
Von Paulus himself was stationed in the factory at 21,17 and he say's we're
gonna be here for a while. Fuhrer's orders...)

Talk about a BLOOD BATH. It was awesome. Reminded me a lot of the ASL battles
on the factory board. Guards Counterattack, etc.. That city map was a
masterpiece of death and destruction after the battle was over. Smoke, fire,
burning hulks of AFV's everywhere. Engineer's really carried the day for me. I
love the Flammenpanzer. Sgt. HiFi is driving it, unit B1.

So far, my alter-ego has 17 kills. Not sure if these are just AFV kills or if
they reflect squads as well.

I'd really like to have an assault for a change. I think out of the 12
scenarios I've played so far, I've only had TWO assaults or advances. Wierd,
eh ?

The Sturmo's were pretty effective in the last one, knocking out 3 or 4 of my
tanks. So far, the best AFV I have received from OKW is the Pz-IVF2. Not a bad
machine, but I long for the Tiger or the Panther. THEN I'll show those KV-1c's
who's boss....

Has anyone had any units promoted above 80 experience points ? I keep getting
promotions after battles but it's never went above 80. Bug ?

Back to the city on the Volga....


Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 482       Sun Oct 15, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 15:29 EDT

MAK,

Nice post ;-)  Agreed on all four points....

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 483       Sun Oct 15, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 17:34 EDT

More questions.....


The manual states that units are either in or out of contact, and that if the
unit carries a radio it is _never_ out of contact. If it does not carry a
radio,it is out of contact if it is more than 5 hexes away from the formation
HQ, or it is not within LOS of said HQ. Now, I have a tank, B4 that has a
radio, AND is within 5 hexes of B0, yet it is listed as "out of contact." I
also have formation lead units (H0) that themselves are listed as out of
contact. By definition, it would seem that formation HQ's could never be out
of contact with themselves, eh ? Of course, during the 60's this might have
been a different matter <g>. Any explanations ? I kinda figured that in some
cases, units that were listed with radios might have had the radios damaged,
but this is not the case here - its turn 1 of a new scenario and all units
have been repaired.... Things that make you go "hmmm..."


Wolfgang


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 484       Sun Oct 15, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 20:14 EDT

Wolfgang,     Interesting post!! See you have a Campaign Score. Does this only
appear in a Long Campaign, because I've never seen one in a short campaign.
Thanks,     Gary N.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 485       Sun Oct 15, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 21:33 EDT

Great scenario!  I've just been playing canned scenarios thus far, and just
finished the one on the German assault on Hill 107 and the Maleme airfield in
Crete.  In terms of capturing all the victory hexes, it was a real nail-
biter, coming down to the very last turn.  The VP totals, however, did not
reflect the tension I felt during the game, since they said I won something
like 1430 to 45.  The VP totals seem a bit ridiculous!

Favorite moments -- watching two Heinkel 111s come swooping down to plaster
two British 40mm positions that had been giving my ground guys fits.

I can't wait to see how Gary will make a great game even greater!

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 486       Sun Oct 15, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 22:13 EDT

Gary,

That's the best news I've heard all weekend !

I must admit, you've managed to really capture the effect of the German
tactical edge in the early years of the war. Up until the IVf2, or probably
the Tiger, the Germans had a technological disadvantage on the Eastern front.
The T-34, the KV series, etc, all had superior gunnery and armor. The only
edge the Germans enjoyed was tactical expertise, gunnery in terms of better
optics, doctrine, and morale. This game really has managed to capture all of
these factors quite nicely. In regard to the gunnery equation, it has been my
understanding that the Germans had better optical equipment(Bausch), training,
and the larger turret made for more comfortable and faster reloads. This has
been reflected in a number of gaming systems, most memorably, ASL, by giving
the Germans a better base to hit % than their Russian counterpart. I was
wondering if you have done a similar thing in SP. It would seem that you have,
based upon my observations after having played 14 scenarios.

I really cannot say enough about how much I _love_ this game. The glitches
will be taken care of, I am confident of this. And if I seemed a bit caustic
at times, rest assured that it was only because this game is soooo awesome. If
it were merely another rush-job-out the door type deal I would not have posted
25 or more messages here. I would have simply returned it for a refund or
exchange. This game has REALLY satisfied my demand for a squad/single AFV
level game that hasn't been assuaged since the early 80's when I had several
ASL partners. Bravo !


Wolfgang

 ----P&QU)Q)))HhT,]Ygory 25,  Topic 24
Message 487       Sun Oct 15, 1995
D.WILLIAMS4                  at 23:12 EDT

    Hi all :)

    As a long time SL and ASL player all I can say is
    I'm selling it all.  There are a few thing wrong with the game
    But all those things have been covered.{  I would like to say one
    or two things that have been covered.

   1>  Los is maybe a little off <I hope that easy to fix>

   2>  The cost some units is way to low.  i.e. Had 8 88mm
       in the def vs the brits in N.Af  <Who won? :)>

   3>  Shoot move shoot move for an needs to be fixed.


   Now the things I love about this game!!!!!!!

   1> The core units! There is nothing like see your
      Alter-Ego Getting another kill or making Elite stander

   2> The game Feel for the East front The Fear of see another
      KV1c after you killed 2.

   3> The support I know Gary will give this game!!!!!

   Thanks Gary and all For a GREAT GREAT GREAT GAME!!!<==Not sure
   if this is a game way to good :)

   Colorado

   PS Matt at SSI Tell John Ross Doug williams said HI!
      and thanks :)
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 88        Mon Oct 16, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 12:47 EDT

Andy:  With all of the other possible 'bug creating' software out there, we've
chosed not to support the most troublesome of the lot, disk compression.  You
can try it on an uncompressed drive and it may even work, but if not, there's
nothing I can do except refund you.

 Wolfgang: That's simply a base penetration number, unmodified.  There are
many many factors involved in the calculation for actual penetration.  I could
not possilbly make a formula in this lifetime.  The game does set the players
back to Computer each turn.  We'll get that in v1.1, until then, manually
change it each time.

 Kato: I'm not arguing anymore.  We make games, we hope you like them.  We
modify them some in an update.  Enjoy.

 Matt S.
 SSI
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 89        Mon Oct 16, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 13:35 EDT

Data 1/4

 Steel Panthers Tank Chart.

 Ratings Key:

 A= Excellent tank with very good armor and weapons. Keep this tank.
 B= Good tank with above average armor and weapons. Ok for now.
 C= Average tank with average to below average armor and weapons.
    May want to consider upgrading the tank.
 D= Poor tank with poor armor and under gunned.
    Should replace tank with newer model otherwise crew will have
    short and violent lives.
 - = Tank not available at this time.
 Max Pen = Max unmodified AP round penetration for this weapon.
 Rang = Max range in hexes for this weapon.

 Roles:

 Inf Support= This means that the tank is design to kill soft targets
 only. Not very useful against tanks.

 Anti-tank=  This means that the tank is designed to kill tanks or
 hard targets. It has limited use against infantry or soft targets.

 SPA= This tank is a self propelled artillery tank. Mobile artilley,
 useful against soft targets only.

 AA= This tank is designed to shoot at aircraft.

 Recon= This tank or vehicle is design to scout and look around the
 battlefield. Not intended to shoot it out with the enemy.

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 90        Mon Oct 16, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 13:38 EDT

Data 2/4


 German Tanks
                   Year Ratings
 Name:      39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Gun   Max Pen  Rng  Role         Cost

 Pz-Ib      C   D                       MG's    0      10   Inf Support  3
 Pz-IIc     B   C   D                   20L55   6      20   Anti-tank    5
 Pz-IIL     -   C   C   D               20L55   6      20   Recon        6
 Pz-IIIE    A   B   C   D               37L46   7      30   Anti-tank    9
 Pz-IIIG    -   A   B   D               50L42   8      30   Anti-tank    10
 Pz-IIIH    -   A   B   C   D           50L42   8      30   Anti-tank    11
 Pz-IIIJ    -   -   A   B   D           50L60   9      30   Anti-tank    12
 Pz-IIIM    -   -   -   B   C           50L60   9      30   Anti-tank    13
 Pz-IIIN    -   -   -   B   C           75L24   6      30   Inf Support  10
 Pz-38t     B   B   C   D               37L46   7      30   Anti-tank    7
 Pz-35(t)   B   C   D                   37L40   5      30   Anti-tank    7
 Pz-IVc     B   B   C   C               75L24   6      30   Inf Support  8
 Pz-IVe     -   B   B   C               75L24   6      30   Inf Support  9
 Pz-IVf2    -   -   -   B   C           75L43   13     50   Anti-tank    14
 Pz-IVg     -   -   -   -   B   B   C   75L48   14     50   Anti-tank    13
 Pz-IVh     -   -   -   -   -   B   B   75L48   14     50   Anti-tank    15
 Panther    -   -   -   -   A   A   B   75L70   19     60   Anti-tank    25
 Tiger      -   -   -   A   A   A   B   88L56   17     60   Anti-tank    30
 King Tiger -   -   -   -   -   A   A   88L71   22     60   Anti-tank    50
 Brumbar    -   -   -   -   A   A   A   150L10  0      50   Inf Support  15
 Stug-IIIb  B   B   C   D               75L24   6      30   Inf Support  8
 Stug-H42   -   -   -   A   B   B   B   105L30  0      40   Inf Support  13
 Stug-IIIg  -   -   -   -   B   B   C   75L48   14     50   Anti-tank    11
 Stug-IV    -   -   -   -   B   B   C   75L48   14     50   Anti-tank    12
 Jpz-I      -   C   D                   47L43   8      30   Anti-tank    7
 PzJagd-38  -   -   -   C   C           76L51   13     50   Anti-tank    11
 Marder     -   -   -   B   C   D       76L51   13     50   Anti-tank    10
 Marder II  -   -   -   B   B   D       75L48   14     50   Anti-tank    11
 Maeder III -   -   -   -   C   D       75L48   14     50   Anti-tank    9
 Nashorn    -   -   -   -   B   B   B   88L71   22     60   Anti-tank    16
 Hetzer     -   -   -   -   A   B   B   75L48   14     50   Anti-tank    10
 JPZ-IV/70  -   -   -   -   -   A   B   75L70   19     60   Anti-tank    15
 Jagdpanther    -   -   -   -   A   A   88L71   22     60   Anti-tank    35
 Elefant    -   -   -   -   B   B       88L71   22     60   Anti-tank    40
 Jagdtiger  -   -   -   -   -   -   A   128L58  22     80   Anti-tank    60
 Sig33      -   -   -   C   C   C       150L10  3      50   Inf Support  9
 Wespe      -   -   B   B   C   C   C   105mm   0      40   SPA          12
 Hummel     -   -   -   B   B   B   B   150mm   2      50   SPA          15
 Lorraine   -   B   B   C   C   C   C150mm   3      130  SPA          15
 Wirblewind -   -   -   -   -   A   A   20mm    3      30   AA           11
 Ostwind    -   -   -   -   -   B   B   37mm    6      40   AA           12
 Gw-38t     -   B   B   C               150L10  3      50   Inf Support  10
 Sdk-221    C   C   D                   MG's    0      10   Recon        3
 Sdk-222    B   C   D                   20L55   6      20   Recon        5
 Sdk-231    B   B   C   C   -   -   -   20L55   6      20   Recon        5
 Sdk-234    -   -   B   B   C   C       20L55   6      20   Recon        6
 Puma       -   -   -   -   B   C   D   50L60   9      30   Recon        9
 Sdk-234/3  -   -   B   C   C   C       75L24   6      30   Recon        10
 Sdk-234/4  -   -   -   -   -   C   C   75L48   14     50   Recon        12


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 91        Mon Oct 16, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 13:40 EDT

Data 3/4

 Russian Tanks
                   Year Ratings
 Name:      39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Gun    Max Pen  Rng  Role        Cost

 BT-5       C   C   D                   45L46     7     25   Anti-tank   5
 BT-7       B   C   C   D               45L46     7     25   Anti-tank   6
 BT-7A      B   B   C   D               76L26     5     30   Anti-tank   7
 T-26S      B   C   D   D               45L46     7     25   Anti-tank   5
 T-60       -   -   C   D   D           20L55     6     20   Recon       6
 T-70       -   -   -   C   C   D   D   45L46     7     25   Recon       8
 T-28C      B   B   C   D               76L26     5     30   Anti-tank   12
 T-35       B   B   B   C               76L16     6     30   Anti-tank   25
 KV-1       A   A   B   C               76L35     8     30   Anti-tank   15
 KV-1C      -   A   A   B               76L41     9     40   Anti-tank   18
 KV-85      -   -   -   -   B   B       85L53     13    50   Anti-tank   20
 KV-IIA     A   A   B                   152L20    0     50   Inf Support 20
 JS-II      -   -   -   -   -   A    B  122L43    20    60   Anti-tank   25
 JS-III     -   -   -   -   -   -    A  122L43    20    60   Anti-tank   30
 T-34/76A   -   A   A   B   C           76L35     8     30   Anti-tank   12
 T-34/76B   -   -   A   B   C           76L41     9     40   Anti-tank   12
 T-34/76C   -   -   A   B   C   D       76L41     9     40   Anti-tank   11
 T-34/85    -   -   -   -   B   B   C   85L53     13    50   Anti-tank   14
 SU-45      C   C   D                   45L46     7     25   Anti-tank   6
 SU-76      -   B   C   D               76L41     9     40   Anti-tank   8
 SU-85      -   -   -   -   B   B       85L53     13    50   Anti-tank   12
 SU-100     -   -   -   -   -   A   B   100L60    21    60   Anti-tank   20
 JSU-122    -   -   -   -   -   A   B   122L43    20    60   Anti-tank   20
 SU-122     -   -   -   -   A   A   B   122L22    6     40   Inf Support 13
 SU-152     -   -   -   -   A   A   B   152L32    3     50   Inf Support 15
 JSU-152    -   -   -   -   -   A   A   152L32    3     50   Inf Support 16
 BA-10      C   C   D                   45L46     7     25   Recon       8
 BA-64      -   C   C   C   D   D   D   20L55     6     20   Recon       6

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 92        Mon Oct 16, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 13:46 EDT

Data 4/4

 American Tanks
                   Year Ratings
 Name:      39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Gun    Max Pen  Rng  Role        Cost

 M2A4       -   C   C   D               37L53     9     30   Recon       8
 M3 Stuart  -   -   B   C   D           37L53     9     30   Recon       9
 M5 Stuart  -   -   -   B   B    C   D  37L53     9     30   Recon       9
 M24        -   -   -   -   -    B   C  75L38     10    40   Recon       10
 M3A1 Lee   -   -   -   B   C           37L53     9     30   Anti-tank   11
 M4A1 Sher  -   -   -   B   C    D      75L38     10    40   Anti-tank   11
 M4A3 Sher  -   -   -   B   C    D   D  75L38     10    40   Anti-tank   11
 M4A3E8     -   -   -   -   -    B   C  76L54     12    50   Anti-tank   12
 Jumbo      -   -   -   -   -    B   B  75L38     10    40   Anti-tank   18
 T26 Persh  -   -   -   -   -    -   A  90L50     16    60   Anti-tank   24
 M10 Wolv   -   -   -   B   C    C   D  76L54     12    50   Anti-tank   12
 M18 Hell   -   -   -   -   B    C   D76L54     12    50   Anti-tank   11
 M36 Jack   -   -   -   -   -    B   B  90L50     16    60   Anti-tank   14
 Sherman FLame  -   -   B   B    C   C  Flame     0     2    Inf Support 20
 Sherman 105    -   -   B   B    C   C  105L30    0     50   Inf Support 13
 M7 Preist  -   -   -   B   B    C   C  105mm     0     130  SPA         9
 M12 GMC    -   -   -   -   B    B   B  155mm     3     130  SPA         15
 M8 Grayhnd -   -   -   B   B    C   D  37L53     9     30   Recon       7
 M20        -   -   C   C   D    D      .50 MG    3     20   Recon       5


 I'll post more information when I have it.  The entire thing should be done
by the time we release v1.1.  When I have more, I'll post it as a text file.

 Matt S.
 SSI
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 93        Mon Oct 16, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 15:01 EDT

How about an UNDO buglet? A barge carrying a unit is moved to shore and
unloads the unit. Clicking on UNDO returns the barge to it's original hex with
all it's movement points restored. However the unit remains at the point it
was unloaded, resulting in up to 12 free barge movement spaces!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 94        Mon Oct 16, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 16:39 EDT

Matt S.,     Thanks for the penetration charts. I assume you're going to
include Anti-Tank Rifles later?
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 95        Mon Oct 16, 1995
R.WINSLOW4 [Cho]             at 17:08 EDT

 This old wargamer finally picked this one up.  I'll probably echo some
 previous posts.  Forgive me; chalk it up to incipient Alzheimer's in
 someone who played his first wargame in 1961.  Whoops ... dropped my
 cane there, then the false teeth fell on the floor and my bifocals
 slipped over my nose ...

 Seriously, this sure looks like Panzer Strike and Typhoon of Steel
 brought up to 1995 sound and graphics standards.  Not that that's
 bad.  Whoever used the expression "putrid Nintendo turd", God love ya!
 You put it so eloquently!!  If only the gang in the executive offices
 would read that.  To toy with something that in absolutely no way makes
 the game simpler yet sacrifices realism is just plain mindless.  OTOH,
 if SSI management has demonstrated to themselves that simpler games with
 top shelf sound and graphics sell better than more complex games with
 beefy manuals we can't reasonably expect them to not produce them ...
 surely many readers here have had to satisfy a stockholder from time
 to time.  Just plain, stark reality.

 Also, I had a thought while playing over the weekend as to the depth of
 detail military buffs and gamers want:  We are essentially putting
 ourselves in the role of field grade officer in this game.  How deeply
 does a field grade officer -normally- get into the minutiae of penetra-
 tion, angles of deflection, velocities, kinetic energies, etc.?  What
 matters to him is what are the practical ranges to engage certain types
 of enemy equipment, and this of course determines tactics.  E.G., with
 your Shermans facing Panthers, you manouver to get around to the side
 or rear and you hope to overwhelm them with numbers.  OTOH, if you're
 the guy with the Panthers, you standoff and kill the Shermans before
 they can close.  The designers and test folks back at the proving ground
 get into the minutiae.  I know, I know, we all are fascinated to one
 degree or another by the background stuff ... this debate over realism
 vs. playability, in its various incarnations, is a very old one.

 Cho the Elder



 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 96        Mon Oct 16, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 18:17 EDT

More picks & pans....


First the good. I'm sure that most of you grogs know that some of the later
model German tanks had smoke canisters. Well, of course this wasn't specified
in the manual or the online documentation. But in a fit of desperation (which
leads to my second point) I found out that _at least_ Tiger I's are so equiped
in this game. The reason I found this out was that I had finished mopping up
the Soviets near Velikye Lukye by around turn 21. The scenario was scheduled
for 27 turns. So, as I am sitting in my tanks popping the schnapps open,
wondering when this thing is gonna end, along come Sturmo after Sturmo. Each
turn for the last 6 turns, I was attacked by Sturmovik's. I tried to hide my
units in smoke, burning bldgs, etc, but there was only so much of those to go
around. I thought, what the hell, lets see if these Tigers have smoke
canisters. They DID ! Real nice effect, you simly select the make smoke icon
and place the cursor over the tank. It smokes that hex, and a seemingly random
1 or 2 adjacent hexes !

I sure wish there was a way to end the scenario early if you have captured the
objectives and obviously a victory. It really bites to sit around waiting
while a lone 82 mm mortar takes pot shots at you, or worse still you get hit
by turn after turn of airstrikes....Grrrrr..... The worst part about it ? My
alter-ego got knocked out of his PZ-IV ....(but survived)

Wolfgang

PS: Does anyone remember the name of the anti-close assualt mortar that was
placed on Tiger II's, JagdPanthers and JagdTigers ? I believe it was a 92mm
morter that was used to "discourage" squads from getting to near the beasts. I
wonder if these are modeled as well ???


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 97        Mon Oct 16, 1995
D.BILEK [Agent]              at 18:24 EDT

 Gary:
    The victory point allocation in SP are really lop-sided.  You can
 get absolutely mauled, take the last victory hex on the very last turn
 and still win by like 1100-50!

   Something's not right there...  Perhaps it should be made so that
 you get a certain amount of points every turn you hold the victory hex,
 but the amount you get for the hex increases over time?  So that holding
 a hex on the first turn doesnt get you very many point compared to holding
 it at the end, but there is still some award for holding it.

                    -David
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 98        Mon Oct 16, 1995
J.ALLEN2 [Gatsby]            at 18:27 EDT

ALL:

I have played this game for what? about a week I guess and unlike alot of you
I am not overwhelmed with this game. I am keeping it on my Hard drive waiting
for Mr. Grigsby's first UNOFFICIAL patch because then maybe some of the
problems I have talked about will be addressed...

thing I'd like to see changed:

1) As I have said the tank intensive nature of the game. I would like to see
the game model true WW2 tactical engagements better. The game is way too tank
intensive, generally way too vehicle intensive. The german army in the WW2 was
never even 50% motorized.

2) Folowing the above. Things like having all troops loaded on SPWs in 1939 or
anytime if you choose anything above green. Are you kidding me? No unit in the
entire Wermacht or SS were that lucky. The german army relied horses
throughout the war...

3) LOS.. as others have said is way too forgiving.

4) AI.. As it stands now Dondo is correct.. You load up your tanks with
infantry and aim for the VP squares... Get there and hold. This is also a
problem with tank and vehicle nature of the game. There is very little actual
tactical decision making. IE.. a house with a field of fire.. you have three
squads.. take the house.. How do you do it?

5) Again following from the above there are no incremental tactics in the
game..(again the vehicle problem) You are not forced to use various terrain
strongpoints or flanking manouvres.. you can use them but they are not
neccessary...

6) The database needs work in terms of realism.. People have already commented
on some of the speed incosistencies. I remember when I first opened up the
game and played the Poland 1939 long campaign scenario. There it was an 88 to
choose as an anti-tank weapon. Yes they were available but nobody used them as
such until Rommel did it from neccessity in the desert.. To be able to choose
such an effective anti tank weapon that early in the war throws off the whole
balnace. The same goes for all the SPW's..God a year before when Germany
occupied Austria 3/4 of the vehicle broke down on the road.

7) where are the malfucnctions and breakdowns...

8) If you click on the opponents side of the map it will give you his order of
battle...

9) Unlike others I don't want to know what the map looks like... Again
ahistorical and unrealistic and takes out the FOG of war that computer games
can actually do better than wargames... Yes I would know majour landmarks IE.
forest river mountains.. but detailed intelligence on lay of land is hard to
get.. people shoot at you when you try to get it.. In some cases maps would be
30 years out of date.. espcially in Russia or desert even worse...

10)And to sum up.. less tanks and vehicles in the making of scenario's...core
units should not be able to have two or three tanl platoons..what are these
core? Company? battalion? or just a kind of Nintendo compromise... Actually I
think it would be more fun if the tanks and vehicles were more historical...
You be very careful if you only had a couple of tanks and he had a ATR set up
on a hill... You would be forced to use infantry to take out the gun and leave
the tank behind...Now you can load your 40 PZIIIE and just charge through...

11) Oh the load unload is completely unrealistic.. I think the whole time
thing should be tweaked...
 John

PS Thanks SSI .. I will now be very careful about buying Rifles.. I have been
warned...

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 99        Mon Oct 16, 1995
B.MILLER31 [Brad Miller]     at 18:47 EDT

Wolfgang,

I belive that it was called a "Nahverteidingungswaffe" or as you said a "close
defense anti-personnel projector" it fired HE, I think, and was located in the
turret roof of German AFV's starting around 1944.

Brad
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 100       Mon Oct 16, 1995
J.ALLEN2 [Gatsby]            at 18:59 EDT

ALL:

A couple of pieces of information that i dug up:

there were only 6,600 SPWs total built during the WW2.. they were mainly
limited to panzer Aufklaerung(armored recon) Platoons and even in these
platoons...which were intended purely for recon they were limited to 6 SPW and
1 for the platoon commander...These were not the heavy weapon SPW's (ie with
coaxial machine guns .. the standard only had the antiaircraft machine gun)
BTW...they would be limited to a heavy weapons platoon...

I cannot find any instance where Tank Destroyer JgdPz were used in France
1940.. I was able to get 7 I think when I played in May 1940 in the long
campaign...

Only 23 Matildas were used in France...all in the 1st tank Brigade.. again in
one scenario I went up against 12 sitting on a hill near cambrai..

One more note during the invasion of France the entire german army only
fielded 2,800 AFV.. as opposed to the british and French 4,000... During the
invasion of Russia only 3300 took part in the original jump off...So lets just
consider that.. Think of the size of the army, think of the individual units,
and then tell me this game is even remotely realistic...

Basically all the core units you can put together wil unrealistic just because
you can load up on what you want...The core unit in my opnion should be based
on Company sized limits and the ratio of vehicles and tanks to infantry should
approx. some sort of reality..

Wolfgang:
 Are you speaking about the mine dischargers that some late model PZKPW VIE
had? They were mounted around the tank and used as anti-personell devices..



John


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 101       Mon Oct 16, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 19:15 EDT



The rate of fire for a unit is influenced by the following factors:

suppression
 experience
 crew size
 calibur of shell


An AFV is not always destroyed when a shell penetrates it's armor. If the AFV
survives the penetrating hit then it may still suffer the following types of
damage:

one or more crewmen killed
 one or more weapons destroyed
 immobilized (engine KOd)
 loss of all shots for the remainder of the turn


Gary
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 102       Mon Oct 16, 1995
R.LONGFORD [Bonzo]           at 19:26 EDT

Another great game from Gary!  I can't say enough good stuff - so will avoid
boring everyone with repetitive adulation of the god of all wargame designers.
So let me get right to the whining.

Here's the minor flaws I've run across:

        -  Autoplacing units in water hexes,

        -  Smoke disappearing after saving and reloading,

        -  Subsequently purchased units sharing designations of core units
           (2 new 88 sections listed as J0, J1, K0, K1 - but I already had
           armored car sections listed J0 through K1.  The "next unit"
           command ignores the 88's or, in setup, tries placing both units
           in the same hex.  This has happened 6 or 7 times, even after a
           complete re-install.)

        -  2 sound problems (with Ensonic Sounscape):

                -  some effects stopped (corrected by complete reinstall)

                -  I get an error message and no sound if I run Windows 3.1
                   immediately after normally exiting SP (can't find
                   "vsndscpe.386")
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 103       Mon Oct 16, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 19:50 EDT

The Victory Point System prpbably needs some explanation.  First of all it
takes a 10-1 advantage in VPs to attain a Decisive Victory and a 2-1 advantage
for a Marginal Victory - anything less is a Draw or some level of Defeat.  In
campaign play it is the level of victory that is important.

It is assumed that a DECISIVE VICTORY has been won if ALL of the victory hexes
are held and losses are not too high.  If ALL victory hexes are held but
losses are too, heavy then this would result in a MARGINAL VICTORY. Failure to
attain ALL of the victory hexes implies that the enemy still controls part of
the battle area which will frequently result in DRAW or DEFEAT.

The number of victory points you score in a battle is not recorded in the
campaign data. It is the number of Decisive and Marginal Victories that is
important.

A score of 1100-40 simply means that you took all of your objectives and
suffered relatively low casualties for a Decisive Victory. A Score of
 1100-111 is only a Marginal Victory.  In a long campaign they wont all be
that easy.


Gary
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 104       Mon Oct 16, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 20:38 EDT

I may have mentioned this before, but there appears to be a glitch with the
after battle unit experience increase display. It _always_ says, "XX unit
improves. Experience 80." It's always _80_. Of course, the units experience is
usually something higher, and if in fact it _is_ 80 it's probably a sheer
coincidence. Or am I reading this wrong ?

I just had a helluva time with the Sov's. AI was quite sneaky in that one. I
had 2 Tigers left at the end of the battle and they carried the day, as Tigers
were often wont to do. I had to start the battle with about 1/3 of my tanks
immobilized, since during the tween time of the previous battle, I splurged
and upgraded 1 of my PZ-IV's to a Tiger. This shot most of my points and thus
I had almost nothing left to repair with !!! It looks like the war is wearing
me down. So I decided to take a breather - it's off to N. Africa against the
Americans in 43'. Perhaps I'll be able to save enough points after this one to
completely re-equip my units...


Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 105       Mon Oct 16, 1995
D.BURDEN1 [Andy]             at 21:01 EDT

Matt:
        Thanks for the info.  Monitoring this topic had me tearing my hair out
wishing I could have it, in spite of some of the negative comments. Maybe I'll
try it at some point.
                                Andy
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 106       Mon Oct 16, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 21:14 EDT

I guess I don't understand the penetration charts because a PZ-IIIe just
killed a French AMR-35 with a hit on the front hull armor (2") at 25 hexes.
Since the chart says 7 hexes for a PZ-IIIe, what gives?
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 107       Mon Oct 16, 1995
A.BBAUX [Mopic]              at 21:21 EDT

Hey Guys, been following this topics for sometime after the release of
 Steel Panthers.  Off hand I think its a Great game and of course any Gary
 Gribsby's  Product is fine  with me.

As far as the topic on SSI's trend with the Wargamers out of mind.. Does
 that mean they're going to change their name from Strategic Simulations Inc.,
 to "Sparking Stuff Inc.,"  I've been down that road with them on all the
 Great Navel Battles games I,II and III  I'll be damn if you get me with
another one like IV and all you did was carry the engine over from one mess to
the next creating more of a mess, anyway, that a whole nuther topic.

I like the game even with is hangups, and have a couple questions/comments:

1) I read on the readme.txt file that, "If you move your unit slower (what
    ever that means) you have a likey chance of spotting the enemy"  What
    consitute  "Slower".   Move 1 hex or 1/2 your movement per turn.

2) It also drives me crazy when take my time, look in all directions
   only to find that on the german's turn.  I get jumped by ground troops
   who procced to blow my tank away and they were right next to me. sheesh
   Panerchargers (whatever they cal it).

3) are you telling me that no American Tank from 4 hex's away can't get a
   better hit percentage then 27%.   While most of the german army hits
   me with over 50% chances way over 24 to 30 hexs even SMGs, AT's, and
   troops... (how the hell did they loose any tanks/troops with those
   percentages )

4) The Normandy Camp.  When it says I cleared 1 mine and some number is
   inside of the ().  Does that mean how many are left.

5) On that same note: Why are my Dozers and Grab's getting blown up clearing
   mines.. are they failing their percentages which cause them to blow.

6)In that same battle.  I know the Germans have a bunch of 105 Howies which
  unless you fire at the same HEX as before.  It takes 2 rounds to move
  your target then shot again.  Well I've moved some 10 hexes away and they
  followed me the next round  (either I'm missing some howies, or they
  got a hell of a fast loading and spotting team.)

7) Same Camp.  Tried to save the game every so often becuase of a strange
   Video messup that takes place on my Viper VLB with 2 MB.  its looses
   its mind.  But, The length of the game is 24 turns, I came back after
   10 turns and 2 moves(turns)  The game ended saying that the germans
   prove too strong and I was suppose to go to a second half I quess
   but it kicked me out to pick a camp again  what happen?

8) (Comment)
  You should allow the ability to zoom the map while the computer is
  shooting.  If you soon to far out you miss everything
 9) (Comment)
  A stay in the exact formation I placed you in Move would be nice if I
  tell the entire platoon to move.
 A) (comment)
  Also, maybe I missed it, but a comment when you click on the hex's that
  a unit is in and he's removing mines. It should tell me he's removing
  mines instead of me guessing, also what about some type of marker
  showing me which path he took?  I'm sure in WWII they knew which side
  of the field was cleared.


And what is a

BAR under Patatroopers?  what does it do?
 and give me just a little more detail on how units(troops) standing by a
 road waiting for some one to pass is spoted.  I did have another unit
 ground troop spot him once just by sure change.. He almost got to my
 tanks.

Mopic
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 109       Tue Oct 17, 1995
J.WESTPHAL [Joel]            at 14:47 EDT

 OK,I do have to say that the game as a weak AI.It is far better than than the
AI in Kampgruppe and Panzer Strike.So far I have just been playing the small
campaigns.I have played through the Polish campaign and recieved a historical
result.I had 5 descicve victories and one marginal.
 I am now playing the french campaign,I just finished the 5th scenario and the
AI finally showed me something.I just barely won.I captured all of the victory
objectives but lost halve of my force in doing so.Those Brit 2pnders are
nasty.They were cooking off my PzIIIEs at ranges of 10 to 20 hexes.My Stukas
were inept and could not hit the braodside of a barn and I forgot to purchase
any 88s:(. I actually had to use a flanking manuver in order to have any
chance to win.

 There are some things that need changing and fixing in this game.

1.The turn bug.Everytime you resume a scenario the turns are wrong.This
happens every time.How this got by the playtesters is beyond me?It does not
have any apparant effect on victory conditions.It is just very annoying.

2.The purchase of 88s.the cost of these prior to 1942 must be at least
doubled.They are way to effective in early war years and were generaly not
used in the anti-tank role until that time.I cant think of one instance where
an 88 killed a tank in Poland or France.

3.The cost to purchase armoured Inf should also be increased.You are really
getting two for the price of one when you have both the infantry unit and the
SPWs.SPWs should not be allowed untill Russia.At this time of the war there
were several German armoured divisions that had Infantry with SPWs.

4.The loss of smoke when restoring a game.

5.Also I have seen nothing on the effects of an infantry unit?They are not
listed in the Encylopedia.Are all Infantry units the same?Do they have
differant morale and fire capability?Does this go up or down depending on the
year of the war?

 This is still a great game!despite its minor flaws.Which I am sure will be
fixed ASAP.Right SSI?You have a winner on your hands here.Just dont drop the
ball and get to work on that patch.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 110       Tue Oct 17, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 18:14 EDT

There was someone on this board who posted that they have a Reveal sound card
for their computer and that Steel Panthers works with sound effects. As I'm
unable to get sound effects out of my Reveal card for this program, could
whoever the other Reveal owner is e-mail me their config.sys and autoexec.bat
files? Matt sent me a suggestion but it still won't work.

Joel,
        The 88mm AA gun was used against Matildas at Arras in France. It was
the first use of them in that role; leave it to Rommel to discover how
valuable they were in that role.

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 111       Tue Oct 17, 1995
J.EVANS10 [JohnnyREB]        at 18:21 EDT

        ======= To: D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       =======

  > 2. I had another tank crew, lead by none other than our very own HiFi,
  > get  knocked out of their tank. The crew routed to a woods hex,
  > eventually rallied,  and after some long range pounding by a PZ-IIIj
  > (manned by Johnny Reb, no  less) upon a T-34/76A whose crew felt like
  > ditching, Hifi and his crew pistol  whipped said T-34 crew.


Hip Hip Hurray!! Me, for knocking out the T34/76A, and HiFi for womping on the
crew. :)


REB

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 112       Tue Oct 17, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 18:33 EDT

Well, my plans for some R&R in the desert were smashed. I got CLOBBERED by
 the U.S. at Pont du Fahs. Literally creamed. They outnumbered me in AFV's by
 at least 5 to 1. I never knew that the Grant tank was that good. It was a
 decisive defeat. Now, I have 36 points with which to repair my units. From
 here on out it doesn't look like I'm gonna do very well. What determines how
 many points you get between campaign scenarios ? Apparently, doing REAL well
 doesn't seem to net you much more, since I had won 10 decisive victories
 until the Russian marginal, and merely buying ONE Tiger broke my bank such
 that my force was never able to fully repair again. Guess Tiger's are out of
 the question in the long campaign, unless you want to have 1 Tiger and a
 bunch of immobilized PZ-IV's.....


I'm still gonna give it a go, however...

Wolfgang



 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 113       Tue Oct 17, 1995
J.HEBERT3                    at 20:18 EDT

 Did you know that Pz 1Bs are amphibious? Started a long German campaign
 in 5/40, and was assigned a defend scenario near Sedan (I think). During
 Setup, I noticed that the left side of the map was water, followed by
 several rows of beach hexes. Odd, I thought but figured it was an assault
 across a _really_ wide river.

 On turn 1 I noticed that there were a bunch of Pz 1Bs in the middle of the
 water. Clicked on them, and sure enough they were French(!) Pz 1Bs. Not
 only that, but they were carrying French tanks. (Okay, guys, let's get
 that Char 1-bis on that 1B and get 'em into the water.)

 I found out that 1Bs in the water are very vulnerable to fire from 88's.
 Especially top turret hits (do the rounds have to get through the Char
 first?). So I shot up a few, clicked on Next Turn, and noticed that the
 1Bs did not move. I guess the computer knew they weren't allowed to
 _enter_ water hexes (but it's okay for them to _be_ in the water and not
 sink).

 Anyway, I have the save game file if SSI, Gary, or anyone else is
 interested.
 --- Joe H.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 114       Tue Oct 17, 1995
LAST.RONIN [Kato]            at 20:23 EDT

  Gary: yep, you're correct--a tank that has lost ONE track _COULD_ turn in a
circle, depending on the surface it's on. On a hard-packed surface it tends to
make a pretty big circle, if not merely a straight line; on a soft or rocky
surface it will often throw the other track if you try to turn it too much...
been there, done that. <g>

Good news on the patch. My belly's hurtin' from chortling so hard every time I
manage to rally a tank crew, push 'em back over a hill, and have them take out
Infantry squads and other tanks with the main gun of the vehicle they
abandoned. <g> Let no man call my DATs weenies!

Seems like the most sound SP tactic is to shoot, then move.


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 115       Tue Oct 17, 1995
ECHOBEACH [Rick]             at 22:37 EDT

        ======= To: SSI.SUPPORT                  =======

 > We hope that you will find the support on this, the hottest  game of
 > it's kind ever (IMO), to be acceptable.  Oh, the game is Tank heavy
 > because those units are the most fun to play.  It IS a game, after all.:)

I note your "grin" symbol at the end of your faux' pau.  I assure you that
statement like this one and "fudging" accurate data elicits ZERO "grins" among
wargamers.  Our font of fun stems from Mr G's dedication (when practicable) to
accuracy.  Fiddling with weapons stats (behind the designers BACK?
incredible...) takes away from our enjoyment of your product.  How could you
think otherwise?


  > Mr. Grigsby has been releasing 'unofficial' patches for SSI games for  a
  > long time.  If we were going to have a problem with it, the time is long
  > past. :)

This statement satisfies most of my concerns regarding revisions completely.
Thank you.


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 116       Tue Oct 17, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 23:05 EDT

How does AA work ? I have had many Typhoon attacks made against tanks that had
2 quad 20's sitting within 2 hexes, and 2 88's within 6 or 7 hexes. The AA
rarely fires... This needs to be fixed.....


Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 117       Tue Oct 17, 1995
D.SICKLER [sickman]          at 23:46 EDT

Mr. Grigsby,

In reference to Kato's last message, a detracked tank _COULD_ turn in a
circle, but 99 times out of a hundred its likely to just be stuck facing the
way it was headed when the track was hit (unless you're rolling down the road
at 30mph or so, in which case I've found one rapidly departs the pavement in
the direction opposite the side the track WAS on). I think its best
immobilized tanks not be allowed to pivot.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 118       Wed Oct 18, 1995
J.ALLEN2 [Gatsby]            at 00:07 EDT

JOHN LANSFORD

Well done... I had completely forgot about Arras.. Indeed you are corect
Rommel did use the 88's at Arras during the British counterattack on May21..
This was of course the battle where his adjundant lt. Most was killed...
 John


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 119       Wed Oct 18, 1995
DREW [DREW]                  at 00:57 EDT

As an aside re compressed disks, windows, win95:

I am running Steel Panthers without a hitch off a compressed disk under Win95.
I am using the "Plus" disk compression progam, not the one with  "plain"
win95.

Sound, mouse, CD-ROM, everything fine.

Love the game. Main gripe that 88's too cheap/numerous early in the game.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 120       Wed Oct 18, 1995
A.BBAUX [Mopic]              at 03:35 EDT

Wolfgang:

I told notice that flamethrowers won't engage enemy ground units with
 flame unless you use the 'X' attack option otherwise they keep firing
 thier main guns.

Something else,  The book(readme.txt file) stated that if you do move
 slow I guess not running the max setting in one turn, you will have a
 better change of spotting enemy units.  OK with this in mind, I took
 a light tank "Stuart" approached some tress (no sure how hi) and moved
 with 1 or 2 hex of it to flush out and ground troops hiding inside, I use
 the "X" option so I will have my main guns as well as secondary guns fire
 at that hex.. Ka-boom goes the hex.  Thinging everything was clear I moved
 up to the hex next to it and was immdediately jumped by ground troops ---
 question is how come I didnt flush them out.

The same applies to the american Eng. Squad, I'm suppose to set range
 to 0.  Didn't occur to me that 0 means the same hex you're in.  I was
 wondering why they didn't sachal charge a Panther who I needed out the way.


Next, The LOC and firing is still strange to me.  How does one actually
 flank a german tank unit of PZIIIe and panthers.  if their LOC goes through
 trees followed by clearing followed by more trees and I on the otherside.

Hell I even had those same Tanks blow away my command unit "AO" who was
 some 35 hexes away on top of a 20 slop hill... I just can't figure it.

I know it might have been mention.  But a save game needs to happen
 right after you win the battle - that  battle's over after you continue.

What does button mean? - and why does the computer AI get the ability to
 take "crew" units who's suppose to be hi tailing it to the rear. and turn
 them into active "ground units" and take victory hexes.

lastly, Had 4 B26's went on 1 mission took alittle damage and was out for
        the entire game, why didn't they repair and come back?  or what's
        the chances they repair and come back?  waste of some good points
        and I need them I'm tryng to take St.LO in france after I finally
        got off the damn beach and opened up some roads.


NOTE:  I did notices that you can tell how far an ememies mort or big
 guns are by hearing the sound of them shooting then watching the explosion
 as they impact.  The closer they are the quicker the impact, however still
 can't see any smoke on the screen, just wondering how they could do it to
 me over 60 or 70 hexes away.... Must have spotting balloons...


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 121       Wed Oct 18, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 05:57 EDT

Mopic,
        A tank "buttoning up" means the commander is down in the tank with all
the hatches closed. Their visibility drops dramatically when buttoned up; if
you see a tank in that state, you can often move adjacent to it without
getting shot. I destroyed 5 T-34s with 3 Pz-IIIh's that way; they buttoned up
when MG-34's hosed them down.

Anyone having success with sound effects using a Reveal sound card? If so,
please e-mail me.

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 122       Wed Oct 18, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 07:36 EDT

EVERYBODY,

 I have completed my review of the data files and there were no, I REPEAT NO,
changes made to the files by SSI.  Changes were made to unit stats on a
scenario by scenario basis BY THE SCENARIO DESIGNERS.  There were however
minor errors made by Gary, Keith and myself (such as the availability of the
SPW-250 Jay mentioned), and I am lobbying hard to get these corrected in the
patch.  I apologize to one and all for giving the impression that the data
files were tinkered with.

 I also hope to get permission to add minimal OBs for the minor Allies
(Norwegians, Dutch, and Belgians) to represent their "armies in exile".
Originally these nationalities were to have exited the game when they were
defeated, but a way was never found to block their selection out.  The quick
solution was simply to extend their units to the end of the War, but that has
them fighting in 1944 with 1940 weapons and organization.

 Jim Wirth
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 123       Wed Oct 18, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 08:58 EDT

Everybody,

 Some of you have complained that the 88s (Flak-18s I assume) are underpriced
relative to their combat power in the game.  I beg to differ.  At 10 points,
the 88 is 1 point more expensive than a Pz-IVe, yet the actual cost to
manufacture a Pz-IV would have been much greater than an 88.  The game already
greatly overvalues the 88 (and all other towed weapons as well) in terms of
its cost to manufacture in order to discourage its overuse.

 If 88s are cheaper to make than tanks and (at least according to the game) so
combat effective, why didn't the Germans make more of them?  Answer:
ARTILLERY.  The 88 will shine in Meeting Engagements and Advance/Delay
situations where off-map artillery is unavailable, but try using it in an
Assault situation where the enemy has plenty of ARTY.  If going up against
Germans in a non-assault situation, the wise player will make sure he has some
SPAs or mortars (heavy mortars are particularly good all around weapons).
Nothing discomforts are German player morethan seeing his 88 crews running for
the rear!

 The lesson reinforced again and again in STEEL PANTHERS is that there are NO
wonder weapons.  Success depends on astute use of COMBINED ARMS doctrine.
Forget that only at your  own peril!

 Jim Wirth
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 124       Wed Oct 18, 1995
LEAGUES [FantasySport]       at 10:34 EDT

        I keep reading messages discussing an "X" option.  Perhaps I
        didn't read the rules well enough, but doesn't the "X" hot-key
        control smoke?

        Someone please explain to me in detail how to fire all main
        weapons, or how to get an Engineer squad to use it's satchel
        charges ...

        The best part of a Grigsby game is the support he gives it, as well
        as the support of those who play it.  Thanks guys!

                        Bill Highfield
                        St Cloud, Florida

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 125       Wed Oct 18, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 11:10 EDT

        Am just getting into SP, having just bought it.  Running under WIN95
with no hitch.

        About movement:  pages 13-14 of the manual discusses movement and
spotting.

        "Positioned -- Ready for action. Your units have a much higher chance
                        of hitting targets and spotting enemy units if they
                        haven't moved.

        Moving -- Moving in a direction NO MORE THAN HALF OF ITS POSSIBLE
                  MOVEMENT.  Moving units DO NOT SPOT as well as positioned
                  units.

        Moving fast -- Moving more than half of the unit's possible movement
                        or more. Fast moving units DO NOT SPOT enemy units
                        very well."

Moving reduces your chances to spot enemy units.




Mike

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 126       Wed Oct 18, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 12:19 EDT

Hi folks,

        I got interested in your discussions about the tank-heavy direction of
Steel Panthers. I feel the game is well designed.  I dug up one of my tank
books, "PANZER ACES", BY Franz Kurowski, and it had a good section on the
organization of a panzer battalion.

WARNING: LONG POST


From PANZER ACES (quote):

        "For tactical purposes the basic panzer unit was the battalion, and
success depended on its efficient employment.

        The standard  battalion consisted of three or four companies.
Initially one company was designated as a medium company, and was equipped
with tanks armed with a 7.5-cm gun.  Its task was to support the light
companies in battle.  Not until later in the war, when tank-versus-tank
fighting became the rule and maximum firepower was necessary, were battalions
equipped with the same type of tank.  Due to fluctuating production figures,
panzer regiments were not always able to achieve this standardisation.  As a
result, especially later in the war, most panzer regiments had one battalion
equipped with Panzer IVs and another with Panthers or even assault guns.

        The panzer company's normal strength of 22 vehicles was later reduced
to 17, and for Tiger companies to only 14.  Late in the war battalion
headquarters consisted of only two or three four-wheel drive vehicles and a
few motorcycle messengers.

        The "command group" was part of the battalion headquarters and
organizationally was subordinated to the headquarters company.  It consisted
of two command panzers for the commander, as well as the adjutant and the
signals officer.  One of these officers manned the commander's vehicle when he
was away from the unit.....

        Each panzer battalion included a reconnaissance and a combat engineer
(Pionier) platton.  These fulfilled the roles of traffic control, scouting,
and reconnaissance.  The engineer sections were motorized, initially in trucks
and later in armoured half-tracks.  Within the battalion the engineers proved
extremely versatile and were a valuable asset.

        The role of the flak platoon was the protection of the supply units,
but also of the combat echelon if required.  When the unit was art rest or in
quarters, the platoon assumed the anti-aircraft defence role for the entire
unit.

        In battle the battalion commander could exercise his command through
verbal orders or radio.  The battalion adjutant, who usually accompanied the
commanding officer, assisted as a sort of tactical aide.  the signals officer
and the operations officer provided expert advice in the areas of
communications and supply.  ....

        The company commander led his unit by radio.  In cases where his unit
consisted of only a few vehicles or where vehicles were committed
individually, he issued individual orders to each tank.  Normally he led his
company into battle until it had deployed.  When battle was joined he moved to
a position which offered the best view or where his presence was required.
His attitude and personal example were decisive factors in the results
achieved by his commanders and crews.  As the war went on his example and
those of the platton leaders became even more important.

        The platton leader was responsible for the combat readiness of his
unit, assisted by his section leaders.

        The tank commander was responsible for his vehicle.  It was his job to
weigh all tactical considerations before acting.  This menat, for example,
that he had to use care in selecting a favourable position for his tank from
which he couls engage the target.

        The commander had to remain alert to the needs of his driver,
providing him with information on other tanks and obstacles.  As well, he had
to provide the driver with precise target information and order necessary
course changes.  In battle, however, experienced drivers often acted without
waiting for orders, when the vehicle came under fire from enemy tanks or anti-
tank guns...."


        Steel Panthers seems, IMO, to follow this panzer organization very
well.  For anyone not wishing a tank-heavy unit, don't buy many tanks.  The
same goes for 88s.  The Germans also formed special tank units with the Tiger
tank.


Love this game!


Mike

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 127       Wed Oct 18, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 13:52 EDT

Does anyone know why AA guns rarely fire at aircraft ? No, they are not
suppressed. No, they haven't already fired. Yes, they would _appear_ to be
within range and LOS....


Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 128       Wed Oct 18, 1995
A.BBAUX [Mopic]              at 16:45 EDT

Ok I give up I just plain and simply give up..!

Situation:  I know 100% for sure on a Y road there are 2 german ground units
            split between each other 1 hex apart just waiting for me to move
            something near them.  How do I know, I've tried 3 times blowing
            trying to get gound troops to suprise them with no success.


I called in "Artie" to start some fires in those hexes and maybe, just maybe
 they will un-dig themself and move so at least I can spot them.

I fire 5 in. rockets in the two hexes for 2 turns... Smoke and/fire in hex
 and since no one is closer, I can't see them (my thinking).

I also had 105 MM HOW blast the hexes for 2 turns some direct hits on the
 hexes and nothing just fire and smoke.

I had light tanks (stuarts) and Greyhounds assult the hexes after artie to
 see if possibly I can flush them out... Nothin.... Figure they ran in the
 night.

I forgot about hex for the time being and start looking for a couple of
 AT guns plowing away my MA32 shermans.  Tried to do a flank  around
 on some tanks on the hill, which means I need to go 1 hex near that burning
 hex I assulted eariler, AND SURE ENOUGH ka-BOOM!  PANZER-WHATCHMACALLIT.

I left the hexes alone for a time, to findout who's shooting at me with
 75L36 and found some tanks dug-in (oh boy, I gonna lose alot of thanks
 just trying to get to them)  I tried to creep some engineers up to them and
 maybe for onces I get to use "Ka-booms!" in my favor.  No luck, then I tried
 a flank around so I can get around on their weak sided armor maybe I'll get
 lucky and get some hits.  moved 2 Wolverines around the leftside who by the
 way was station (positon) 2 hexes off the road because of mind-fields, and
 just north of that ambush in the trees.  I tried to click 1 hex at a time
 around the treeline, and SURE ENOUGH Ka-BOOM! Paner-whatmacallit!  Sigh I
 hate german ground troops.

Well at least Artie took out a panther and 2 AT-guns sitting on a hill
 just can't do much vs dug-in ground troops. (Maybe germans don't get
 shell shocked and run.  :)


{Wonder if they like Flamethrowers on HIGH.....}

Mopic
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 129       Wed Oct 18, 1995
J.ALLEN2 [Gatsby]            at 18:20 EDT

MIKE:

Yes that's true of Panzer battalions... But whta percentage of front-line
troops were in panzer battalions... I'll check and get back to you.. As far as
not using them.. Well the opponent is tank heavy so you had better use them...
 John
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 130       Wed Oct 18, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 18:27 EDT

I would like to take this moment to commemorate the passing of someone who was
very near and dear to my heart.  Me.  Sgt. Wolgang and his crew were destroyed
on the Western front near St. Gilles defending the Fatherland from the
capitalist onslaught. The sgt.'s Tiger tank was destroyed by an American B-26
Marauder. Wolfgang's tank was hit dead center by a 500 lb. bomb. The commander
and his crew were killed instantly. He will be awarded the Knight's Cross
posthumously. During his career, he and his crew destroyed 32 enemy AFV's. His
daring, skill, and courage will be sorely missed.


Meanwhile, Sgt. Sabre, Sgt. Johnny Reb, and Sgt. HiFi continue to struggle
against the overwhelming numerical superiority of the Allies. The battallion
is currently engaging units of the Anglo-American alliance near the town of
St. Vith.

Wolfgang II
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 131       Wed Oct 18, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 18:35 EDT

Gatsby,

>Yes that's true of Panzer battallions... But whta percentage of front-line
 >troops were in panzer battalions... etc..

Well, that seems to be a moot point. After all, this game _is_ called STEEL
PANTHERS. I thought it was a given that when you had a battallion it would be
ARMORED.

It seems rather absurd to complain about the armor/infantry mix. This game, if
I am not mistaken, is supposed to simulate the command of an ARMORED
battallion. Not infantry, ARMOR. So what's the beef ?? If you expected to
command an infantry battallion, then perhaps you should look for a game called
STEEL GRENADIERS, or STEEL COMMANDOS.

Just my 10c worth..


Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 132       Wed Oct 18, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 20:24 EDT

Another bug: Anti-Aircraft fire isn't worth a pinch of c___ ____.

I set up a "football field" - nothing but grass. I put 20 20mm AA guns around
a few tanks. They were all within anywhere from about 50 yards to 500 yards.
No LOS blocks, no suppression, no gremlins. I gave the other side a platoon of
tanks, and 6 Sturmo tank busters. After the 3d turn or so, the enemy tanks
came within spotting range of the tanks/AA guns. Then the sturmo's attacked.
The first attack came, they busted 2 tanks. No AA hits. They flew RIGHT over
this FIELD of 20 AA guns and NOT A SCRATCH. It kept getting more ridiculous.
After the tanks were smoking, they started attacking the AA guns ! They came
in 2 more waves before I ended the experiment. 4 AA guns were smoking, none of
the planes were shot down. I mean, as a f/b pilot, this would kind of target
would definitely be a no-go. But in they came, cannons blazing.... into a
literal FIELD of flak, and not ONE plane was shot down. So, bottom line, DO
NOT WASTE ANY OF YOUR POINTS ON AA GUNS...just take your lumps and hide in the
smoke.... IS THIS A BUG ?????


Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 133       Wed Oct 18, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 20:56 EDT

Gary, Matt, anyone,

Have any explanation how a dive bomber can come into 20 AA guns and not be
even the least bit distracted ?

Also, didn't a lot of tanks have turret mounted AA guns ? Most American tanks
did, and a lot of late model German tanks as well. If the tank is unbuttoned,
shouldn't they get a crack at an attacking aircraft ?


Wolfgang the inquisitive


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 134       Wed Oct 18, 1995
D.WILLIAMS4                  at 21:18 EDT

    Wolfgang

           I hvae been playing the long camp, and have smoked!
   a few us and brit A/C all .  have killed them with 88 and 20mm.
   I have always been ontop of hill when the planes attack.

   Not sure way your AA not working 1 game I killed 3 out of 4
   Attacking brits HURR II.

   {Just got my 1st Tigers,  Glad I have been save my money :)

   {Colorado  AKA MAJ Von Williams
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 135       Wed Oct 18, 1995
M.MARTINO [JAY]              at 21:55 EDT

        Guys, the 88 was first used in the direct fire role in Spain during
the Civil War. No, it may not have killed tanks, but that's where they
discovered how effective it could be, and why Rommel's 88s actually had AP
ammo at Arras. He may have been more ready to accept the idea than others
(notably the Brits, who didn't issue AP ammo to the 3.7 AA 'till '41 or '42),
but Rommel certainly can't take any more credit for the idea than Napoleon can
for the Corps d'Armee.

        That being said, I think the point value of the equipment should be
more based on the RARITY of the item, rather than the cost of
production/effectiveness that Jim mentioned. I seem to remember that ASL had a
rarity factor for each equipment type that was used both to determine when
something was available in the first place and to multiply the base point
value. I'm not sure if such a thing can be retrofitted into SP (I doubt it,
but GG has surprised us before). If it can, it should be fitted as a
"grognard" option, i.e. one that Panzer General fans can turn off when they
want an all Panther force.

        This game, like most computer games, seems to be best suited to play
against a human. I haven't tried it PBEM yet, but I'm going to strongarm one
of my friends into a hot-seat game soon. It would be nice if a campaign could
be run human vs human as well.

        Jay
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 136       Wed Oct 18, 1995
R.WINSLOW4 [Cho]             at 22:00 EDT

 I'm with Bill (Highfield) on the "X" business.  Someone posted that it was
 necessary to use it for engineers to fire their flamethrowers -- explain,
 please.  Of course, Bill and I are just simple old Diplomacy players, and
 erstwhile crewmates on the "Lady Blue" in Air Warrior.  Hey, Bill, want to
 PBM this a little?

 Re: "Tank Heavy", yes, just as its predecessors, Panzer Strike and
 Typhoon of Steel were, -but- I agree that it's generally more fun this
 way.  When I got tired of tanks on those old games, I just worked up
 OOB's without them, and it worked fine.  You can make this game any
 way you want.  I wonder if some of the players were looking for this
 to be Squad Leader.  It ain't, and neither were its predecessors.
 Squad Leader is a board game that, in its present incarnation, has a
 learning curve and a price tag that just don't make sense for someone
 with a life other than wargaming. (IMO, of course.  My old, humble,
 whiffing of Alzheimer's opinion.)

 BTW, SSI, Gary, that bug that assigns the same formation letter to
 support units purchased in long campaign scenarios is real irritating;
 you have to visually seek out the units -every- time you want to give
 orders, one by one.  And, here's a strange one: I have a third world
 sound card called a "Forte 16".  It came standard on a Packard Bell
 486 system I bought (pretty big mistake, too) about a year and a half
 ago, and I -know- it uses the address 220H, IRQ5, 1DMA.  Factory
 default settings that have never been changed.  The setup program for
 SP will not recognize this configuration, but does recognize it if I
 select IRQ7.  And, most of the time, the sound works!  Sometimes I
 have to reboot, and sometimes it won't work if I use "steel.exe" but
 does work if I use "start.exe".  Weird.  Any thoughts?


 Cho the Elder


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 137       Wed Oct 18, 1995
P.MEADOWS1 [HardRock]        at 22:13 EDT

 The cost of the 88,or any weapon, isn't the measure of actual economic
 points (at least it shouldn't be) but based on its "game effectiveness".

 The 88 will dominate and therefore should cost points..irregardless if it
 costs less than a PzIV economically in real life.
 The 88 is great on assault too.

  Re: tank heavy.  Ok, I can accept if we don't want tanks don't take
 them...BUT..does the computer AI still take tanks? I don't know,just
 asking...but if it does then it's tank heavy.

 Yes, the tank was the backbone and the batallion was the main striking
 force. BUT, not all engagements were tank battles.

 Every scenario I've played in campaign Russia '41 I'm seeing KV1s and
 T28's...they were around to be sure but......


 -HR
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 138       Wed Oct 18, 1995
P.MEADOWS1 [HardRock]        at 22:21 EDT

 Actually Jay has a better point on the 88, the rarity factor. SL did do a
 good job on that aspect. Certaintly effectiveness must still play a role.

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 139       Wed Oct 18, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 22:29 EDT

Mike,

As you note, the point about the effects of movement on spotting may explain
some of the "odd" twists to LOS in this game.  I saw one today -- I had an
infantry squad moving fast down a road towards an enemy squad also moving fast
towards my squad down the same road.  I got within two hexes of open road of
that unit -- and had NO LOS.  I can only guess it was because my guys were
panting too heavily from all that exertion to see that the Germans were
literally just down the road!

Stu

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 140       Wed Oct 18, 1995
V.NEWELL [VENOM]             at 23:12 EDT

        Can anybody give me advice on what they do verse landmines.  I usely
send motorcycles to blaze a trail.


                        VENOM.
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 141       Wed Oct 18, 1995
V.MILAN [Vic]                at 23:41 EDT

Wolfgang => COndolences on your premature demise. <g>

Also, ten points for knowing the Nazis were anti-capitalist.

And _also_, if you can DYO campaigns on this one [haven't found it yet, &
won't pay $60 when I do], why doesn't somebody roll up some infantry-
intensive ones?  Or won't that work?
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 142       Thu Oct 19, 1995
J.ALLEN2 [Gatsby]            at 00:36 EDT

Wolfgang:

You are absolutely correct. I was mistaken about the intent of the game... I
thought it wanted to simulate tactical warfare in WW2.. However even if it
does want to be primarily an armored sim I stil the mix is off. Panzer
battalions were not the sole use of armor, and the British have way too many
tanks in the French and desert campaigns. And the Poles? Geez don't get me
started on the Poles.

I have not played the Pacific scenarios yet. Um How do you explain the pacific
as an armoured theatre? Yep those jungles were just great for tanks. Has
anyone played the Pacific theatre? Are there tanks there, because the Japanese
did not have a whole hell of a lot of armour and the US really did use their
armour in supporting roles.

Look I like the game. I just want ot better. More realistic more fun for me.
Less tanks.. I'm more careful and have to use other weapons....Or it because
rock and paper... Ahh Matilda.. bring out big 88...

Got to have some way to order retreat if getting a** kicked.. I mean one
command and every one takes off... tempted to ask for and of scenario when
there is no way the enemy will not pursue.. So you don't have to sit and go
through all the turns...But the problem with that of course is then that the
computer will have to extrapolate any losses which I hate in other games...

I really think its important Gary not to show the map...The great thing about
a computer wargame is the fog of war.. As it is now you can load up on way too
much stuff that you would never have access to especially int he quantities. I
would really like to see this limited... A lot of games do this.. Have a
limited amount of supply of say.. 88's or those damned SPW's...also if this is
going to be an armoured battalion then lets keep the ratios historical. You
can only have a certain amount of various types... I'm talking the campaign
game by the way...

JAY:

I will check the spainish civil war thing about 88's .. Could you give me a
cite? Also I really really like the idea of the rarity idea.. I still think
ASL is the best game ont he market in any format and the rarity factor in DYO
works well...Please Gary Please...
 John


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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 143       Thu Oct 19, 1995
A.MULLEN [Tony]              at 01:21 EDT

Gary,

Would you consider changing the way that all destroyed tanks or vehicles burst
into flames and become LOS blockers for the duration of the scenario?  It's a
bit much to have twenty or so burning tanks/vehicles creating a wall of smoke
that never goes away.  Would it be possible to make every destroyed vehicle
have a 25%, or whatever is a more accurate figure, chance of burning when
knocked out and the remaining percentage chance to just sit there similar to a
knocked out AT gun.

Maybe if you'd just consider making each destroyed vehicle have a 50% chance
each turn to stop burning each turn would do the trick. A lot of people are
throwing a good many suggestions your way and I thought I'd toss another to
see what you and everyone else thinks.

Best,
      Tony
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 144       Thu Oct 19, 1995
A.BBAUX [Mopic]              at 01:52 EDT

Cho, Highfield

My fault its not "X", "x" is for "smoke" its  "Z" Direct Fire - The only
 way you gonna get "Sherman Flames", "Engineers" to use their special weapons

"Flamethrowers", "Satchel charges" is to "Z" them from 1 hex away,  the silly
 thing is you're get "supressed" with smoke once you do this. Go figure


I've also notice that German ground units, don't supress as quickly as my
units.  I can get them down to 3 men left and they still have enough speed
 to out run my bullets, but I get hit one or 2 times and I'm suppressed with
 50 to 100 suppression points and can't move....


Somewhere up topic someone mention suppressed ground units staying in fire
 I agree with you, who would like burning to death vs a quick bullet in the
 back.

Horrah for my Wolverines... I had one sitting just inside of some hvy
 trees for 2 turns and guess who come motoring down the open field side-
 ways some 8 hexs out, NOT one but two Panthers!.  I just let him sit there
 not moving him and sure enough he blow them apart...(starting to feel
 better..)

Maybe I should try and move 4 of them, sit 2 or 3 of them, then move
 and sit so I can spot... Kind of hard to do when you're suppose to advance
 in so many turns.

Venom,
 Don't know about Germans....

On normandy I had to have engineers, Craps, Forks (I think they're called)
 go into the minefields and clear a path.   Depending on the number of
 mines and I guess if you're not supressed you can clear quite a few at
 a time.  Actually cleared a road in 2 turns, just to walk into another
 minefield in the next hex.

(hehe but I did find a section totaly cleared of mines and dragons right up
 to the grass.. Had all my tank move there at high speed)

By the way, if you spot a mine you do have a chance of going right pass the
 mine field without being blown up.  The lighter the truck,tank is the less
 likely you're going to  blow up...(no choice if you're out of engineers).


P.S. Beware of German Panzerfausts -- A tanks Nightmare!

Mopic
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 145       Thu Oct 19, 1995
S.MALCZAK [Ivan]             at 02:01 EDT

Hi All!1
  Well, I jsut got this game as well and came here to look for some ideas...
 I started a 1944 long campaign as the Germans in June. I wanted to defend the
beaches, ya know...
 Anyway, after buying my units etc, I went to the deployment screen and found
that I was invading a beach!!! (go figure) But..the really odd thing was that
all of my units were loaded into 4.2inch mortars...hmmmm. The worst thing
about it, is that my 4.2 inch mortar transports arent amphibious and thus i
couldnt even land and assault France..(even tho I should have been already on
the  bbeach to defend it ;> )

So much for the the June, 44 campaign...

Other than that and the bugs/shortcomings that I have already seen posted, I
am having a pretty good time w/ this game. 2 thinhs: 1:Allow more than 48
units...It almost forces you to buy the high price items...After buying my
Inf, bunkers, At units and snipers...I had 270 some odd points left. And only
4 units left to fill...Gee, Bob, I guess I take the King Tigers for 240 <g> 2:
Allow a toggle for just the Arty animations...I hate to sit thru 'em but I
like to see the rest of the anims to keep track of whats going on during the
enemy turns.

                                    Eagerly awaiting the patches <g>,
                                                         Ivan
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 146       Thu Oct 19, 1995
J.BARBIN                     at 03:11 EDT



 Despite its name, SP was always envisioned as a small unit combined arms
 infantry game, more similar to Squad Leader than Advanced Squad Leader.

 I believe that the acceptance of the hard core on this forum is essential
 to the long term viability of the game's sale, and consequently to the
 company's reputation.  Without us, the interest of the average gamer is
 limited to the rather short attention span of a few months.  Although most
 wargame sales are in fact made either in the first few months, or in the
 bonus pack multiple game CDs at the very end, it is us who sustain the
 interest in between.  Who knows what the market would be like without us.

 The basic design of SP can be made as realistic as we like without
 affecting the interface or the sales one whit because most of the
 complexity is handled by the computer anyhow.  This does not signifigantly
 affect development costs either since nearly all development budget is
 absorbed by art/music/interface and associated graphics programming, and
 by packaging and physical production and distribution and advertising and
 overhead.  The programming costs for the combat and movement system are
 essentially unchanged from the earliest games.

 Worse still, the game features are essentially tested by Musser, Wirth,
 and me for free, or are tested by SSI as a byproduct of the beta testing
 required by the huge graphics and interface programming effort anyway.

 The beer and pretzles philosophy is further compromised by the fact that
 any equally complex non historical game, or even any equally complex
 non wargame will sell still better than SP.  Simpler games sell better
 still.

 Why not pull out all the stops and go for the gold?  I think the next one
 should be called BLAZING PANZERS and in it Mario should kill Hitler on the
 last screen with a barrel of atomic waste.

                                              Jim B.


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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 147       Thu Oct 19, 1995
J.STEVENSON6 [IKV Sabre]     at 09:17 EDT

Wolfgang,

stormoviks were pretty well armored.
 try that experiment with 88s

Tony,
 if a tank is knocked out (destroyed) there is an EXCELLENT chance it will
burn.  Fuel and unspent ammo tend to catch and cause secondary explosions.
THATS why the smoke for a long time.

JoeS/2

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 148       Thu Oct 19, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 09:24 EDT

Tony,

There are two ways to kill an AFV:

1. immobilize the AFV, and/or destroy it's guns and the surviving crew will
eventually abandon it.

2. set off the AFV's fuel/ammo and the surviving crew will immediately abandon
it.

You should think of any abandoned tank on the battfield as KO'd.  At the end
of the battle (in a campaign) the burning tanks must be replaced while the
abandoned tanks can be repaired.


Wolfgang,

The results of your FLAK test indicate that the AA guns were reluctant to use
opportunity fire against aircraft.  There were some checks to prevent guns
from taking low percentage shots against ground targets that were being
applied to air targets as well. This will be adjusted in version 1.1.


Gary

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 149       Thu Oct 19, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 15:23 EDT

Gatsby,

I agree, the unit mixes are somewhat a-historical. Thats something that is
more perturbing when the computer is purchasing units, since you can of course
limit yourself if you want to those units that were historically available. I
have not looked at any of the Pacific scenarios either, can't really address
that issue. I also agree about liking the game. Hey, if it weren't _THIS_
close to what I've been waiting for, well, nearly 15 years I would have just
figured what the hell and not bothered to dissect and critique it. Thats the
point, though, isn't it ? With just a little tweaking, Gary can have the best
tactical sim EVER. Arguably, even with the minor bugs and historical
discrepancies, it is damn close to being such.

As for retreating, I've done it twice. Once in N.Africa where the Americans
had WAY too many Shermans. My force was somewhat depleted from recent action
near Rostov, and I wasn't able to completely revamp them during the interim.
So to save units and face, I simply ran them like hell to my edge of the map.
After positioning them on the map edge, they are apparently withdrawn the next
turn. Of course, you lose the scenario, and the computer ribs you a bit, but
hey, whats that axiom about living to fight again another day ?

I don't agree about the map issue. As any competent commander, you would have
at least a rudimentary map of the terrain. I'm not talking force disposition,
but even a short blurb in the form of an intel report indicating that "armored
units reported to be near the objective," or something to that effect. I mean,
you would know about such terrain features as rivers, ridges, etc. Now, in a
pursuit, your intel should be less reliable than in an assualt, etc.

Agree about rarity as well. ASL did handle this well, to wit, an 88 was less
"expensive" to purchase in 44 than it was in 39.

For those of you who want more of an infantry flavor, I am working on
reproducing something along the lines of "The Guards Counterattack" = it will
feature German engineers, Soviet Guards, and a very few tanks.

Sabre and I are currently playing a randomly generated 1944 Eastern front
scenario. This game really shines in a two player setting. When modem play is
out, this game could be a factor in determining whether or not I finish law
school <g>.

Wolfgang



Wolfgang out

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 150       Thu Oct 19, 1995
M.MARTINO [JAY]              at 18:55 EDT

Gatsby,
        I'll see if I can find a ref for the 88 in Spain, but I'm afraid that
it was one of those things that I have knocking around in my head. I'm certain
that it wasn't just a sudden burst of inspiration that provided an AA gun with
AP ammo though. All of Rommel's touted brilliance in using his 88s at Arras
(which may not be true BTW, I'm having trouble finding a source other than
Squad Leader) would have been for naught if he didn't have AP ammo available.

        I'll throw my vote in with those who dislike the ahistorical unit
purchases. As one who plays against the Germans more than as them, I really
get annoyed at all of those SPW 250s forcing my Matildas to retreat due to
hundreds of machinegun hits. I think it's already been said, but I'd like to
emphasize: a more historical game won't reduce sales. Those who could care
less won't even notice, and those who care (seems like everyone here) -will-
notice, and appreciate the game, with the added benefit of convincing friends
to buy the thing <hint, hint>.

        Jay
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 151       Thu Oct 19, 1995
D.BILEK [Agent]              at 19:45 EDT

    An AI problem:  The AI will go for your barges on an amphibious
 landing <such as the Sealion scenario in the France 1940 campaign> even
 after your men are unloaded.  My men were advancing inland in England
 and the AI was >still< solely bombarding my empty barges with its
 artillery and sending in airstrikes on them.

    Maybe the AI can be coded to ignore weaponless barges if they're
 empty?  Hmmm...

        -David
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 152       Thu Oct 19, 1995
R.SAVAGE6 [Rich]             at 20:59 EDT

Gary,
 I'm sure you've noticed the large response from the grognards on this board
 to SP. There are the usual gripes, moans, and so forth about "ahistorical
this," or "tank heavy that," but that's what grognards like myself are,
grumblers! (I'm sure everyone knows the term comes from the veterans of the
Napoleonic armies.)
 I've played several scenarios, one "hot' versus another person, and the rest
 against the AI. All I can say is that I've been having a blast. Being a
former Marine, like old man Cho, (and I'm older than him!) I tried out a few
turns of the Tarawa scenario, as the Corps, naturally. Anyone who wants to
play using infantry tactics, give this one a try! There are 3 or 4 Marine
support tanks, (Shermans I believe,) and no armor for the Japanese as far as
 I've gotten so far. Anyway, this is a true "grunts" delight, as you have the
 immovable force, the dug in Japanese, against the irresistable object, the US
 Marine Corps. The casualties have been heavy, and popping smoke and using
your mortars, smoke, and aircraft in coordination are of the essence.
 As for the gamers who complain about the overwhelming armor advantage of the
 AI, build a primarily infantry force, and back it up with enough '88s and
heavy mortars, and especially panzerfausts to make the enemy pay.
 Well, I don't want to drone on, but I do want to say that in my mind, this
game is one of the "trailblazers" of computer wargaming. I went out and bought
an Atari 800 so I could play Chris Crawford's "East Front," got an AppleIIC so
I could play SSI's later efforts, (Gettysburg another waypoint!)
 An Amiga, (great machine, no support,) and finally into the PC arena to keep
 up with the escalating amount of titles.
 I noticed one of the fellows stating he'll still continue to play ASL. Well,
 I've shelved my huge rulebook, and am eagerly awaiting more diskettes and a
few minor patches to this breakthrough wargame.
 As I said to my wargaming buddy of the past couple of decades, "If they can
 make this game modem-playable, we may never see each other again! He
laughingly agreed. Just think, no more cold rides home at 2 AM, after playing
 a boardgame. Just click on save and say goodnight!.
 Keep up the Excellent Work!
 Rich Savage
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 153       Thu Oct 19, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 21:15 EDT

Had another unit that didn't fire even though fully capable. Ammo,
Suppression, Shots, in range and in contact. The computer kept saying it was
firing but nothing happened. No loss of shots or ammo. No graphics or sound of
firing. Using "T" and "F" or clicking on the target had no effect. This could
be kept up indefinately .
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 154       Thu Oct 19, 1995
M.HEIDAL [Viking]            at 21:59 EDT


  I'm playing one German and one American/pacific <long> campaigns.

  Someone asked about the PACIFIC ?

  In the pacific i'm up to 12/42 and just got medium tanks <M3A1 Lee>.
 I've had M3 Stuarts from the start.  The Japanese have had really
 lousy tanks that are few and far inbetween.

  My Marine infanty started green.  Early in the war i changed them
 to Raiders. They can kill armor and have better weapons <IMHO>.  A
 few of my core units have made it to elite !   One year and eight
 battles seven major wins <3pts> and one minor <1pt>.  Have to kill
 every last jap in their squads.   They never surrender or retreat !
 They just keep on coming & coming.  tough
  Also, from the start i was only allowed foot infantry.  Now i have
 most of my core Raiders teamed up with/on tanks. In the HQ screen my
 unit letters are all screwed up from changing HQs too much.

  Almost two weeks and haven't stopped playing this game.  NOT for a
 minute !!!   GREAT GAME



--Mike
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 155       Thu Oct 19, 1995
J.KINCAID1 [John]            at 22:40 EDT

        ======= To: R.SAVAGE6 [Rich]             =======

I have found this game to be quite entertaining. I have played wargames
(board) for twenty years and do enjoy indepth simulations. I think there is a
nice mix in this game of sim. vrs. play. Just wish the Email part worked

                                        John C. Kincaid
                                        "Apple Valley CA"


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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 156       Thu Oct 19, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 22:52 EDT

Wolfgang,

 The German 92mm Close Defense Weapon (please don't ask me to spell the German
name) is called the 92bW in the game and is on the King Tiger, Jadgtiger,
Jadgpanther, and Stug IV/70.

 Gatsby,

 The Jpz-I was a conversion of the Pz-Ib begun in March of 1940 through
February of 1941 (total of 202 converted).  It first saw action in the Western
Campaign of 1940.  The Flak-18 was available from the beginning of the War,
although its first DOCUMENTED use in an anti-tank role was by Rommel at Arras.
While it is unknown if the 88 was used against tanks prior to Arras, the
capability was always there.

 On the subject of the game being TANK HEAVY, may I direct you to the BATTLE
and EDITOR features which allow you to construct situations more historically
representative.  I personally am not a great fan of campaign games for all the
reasons you and others have mentioned.  I prefer to build my own scenarios and
pick the computer's forces for it.  You lose some of the fog of war aspect but
at least the forces are historically rational.

 Jay & Hard Rock,

 I personally think the 88 is properly valued, but even if it wasn't any
reasonable higher value would make no difference.  At double the cost, the 88
is still too good a weapon to pass up, and there are more than enought points
to always purchase it.

 Gary Norman,

 Armor is measured in centimeters not inches and penetration rating is the
base penetration in centimeters also.  The base penetration is modified by
range and shell size to determine the final penetration value.  If you
actually manage to get a hit, the Pz-IVe's 75mm round will go through the
armor of a AMR-35 quite easily.

 Mopic,

 Slow is moving less the half your movement rate.  BAR stands for Browning
Automatic Rifle, the squad automatic weapon in American infantry units in
WWII.

 Joel,

 All nationalities in the game are rated for experience and morale for each
year of the War.  In general the Allies get better and the Axis get worse as
the War goes on but the actual values are increased by a random of 0 to 20 in
DYO scenarios and the beginning of campaigns.  The leadership values are based
off of the national experience values as well and similarly randomized.

 Jim Wirth
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 157       Thu Oct 19, 1995
A.BBAUX [Mopic]              at 23:10 EDT

Agent;
        How does the enemy know those barges are empty, as far as the AI
 is concern they might still be full of troops or a second wave coming in.

Heck, in Normandy I keep my empty barges moving alone the coast away
 from my main landing so he (the AI) would use its howitzer on them...
 better blow up a barge then ground troops...

All
 Well finally made it pass St.LO, You know the AI will try and sneak troops
 on some of your capture victory hexes if you don't watch out.  What bugs
 is me is the enemies ability to stay hidden with infantry troops until
they're close enough to "Panzerfauer" you.. But in the same token, I slipped
 pass a Panther once, unload my Engineers some 8 hexes away and tried to
 sneak in on him to "Ka-Boom" him.  But, he saw me..

Think I should go to the pacific, NO Tigers and 88's there.

Once question I do have, isn't the americans suppose to have lots of air
 superiority in germany by 1944 Dec.  And why doesn't the game really
 reflect this by offering more OFF-MAP bombers, or P47's....

Mopic

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 158       Thu Oct 19, 1995
J.ALLEN2 [Gatsby]            at 23:50 EDT

JAY:

Actually I found Rommel's use of the '88 in Irving's(Before he lost his mind
and was still an okay historian.. Gawd what happened to him?) book on Rommel
and Rommel mentions it himself in his diaries...

I meant an end the scnenario early button.. but i have now re thought.. I
would like to see fires spread too...

Jim BARBIN:

Thankyou for your honest post. I always assumed this game was supposed to
small unit tactics and not be so tank intensive. Its a shame I suppose that
Panzer general was so popular...


To the guy who is putting away his ASL: :) I know a few guys who bought ASteel
panthers that might buy some of the later modules...
 John
 John
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 159       Fri Oct 20, 1995
J.ALLEN2 [Gatsby]            at 00:12 EDT

J.WIRTH

I'm sorry I don't have my original post and if confused the JgdPZ series with
the Pzjg I I apologize.... These are two totally differnt weapon systems..As
you said  The Pzjg 1 ws built on the chassis of Pzkpfw 1 with an ex czech
4.7cm gun...

However what I was talking about was the jgdpz which were from the 38t all the
way up to the jgdpz vi... These are the ones I saw in my campaign game in
France and there would no way as you now that they would be there..I'm sorry
if I made an error in my original post or maybe you misread it.. I assume it
was my error.. I usually type these late at night..Also I think particular
post I was incensed :)

John
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 160       Fri Oct 20, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 00:38 EDT

Jim Wirth,     Thanks for the info on penetration. It finally makes sense now!
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 161       Fri Oct 20, 1995
M.KENNEDY20 [MAK]            at 03:13 EDT

Jim-

RE Blazing Panzers:  Don't give them any ideas.


MAK
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 162       Fri Oct 20, 1995
LAST.RONIN [Kato]            at 06:57 EDT

  Wolfgang: my AA guns fire at aircraft every chance they get; in fact, my 88s
and SPW-251s downed four or five Blenheim bombers in the last battle I
finished. The mistake you may be making is using all your shots for your AA
guns (maybe some kind of armor killing feeding frenzy? <g>). This, of course,
leaves no shots for the aircraft when they come....

ps: the role playing aspect you've introduced here is great; in fact, I've
done the same thing myself.  ...too bad that damn Tombstone crew can't hit the
broad side of a barn from the inside, and runs away the first time a rifle
round pings off the armor. <g>

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 163       Fri Oct 20, 1995
LAST.RONIN [Kato]            at 07:25 EDT


        I'm having a riot with this game and have no complaints about unit
ratios--hell, I'm not a historian, I just want to blow up the enemy...<g>
..and man, do the 88s do that well! Those poor Brits, they should be
complaining in here that I purchased an ahistoric blend (3-pairs of 88s in my
core units...muuuhahahah) and they don't stand a chance.

        The only problem I'm having with this game is that at some zoom levels
the terrain freezes up on occasion, and then when it unlocks it jumps all the
way over to one side or the other. This is usually accompanied by the CD-ROM
light being on, although I did the full install. (4x CD on 90MHz Pentium)



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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 164       Fri Oct 20, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 07:48 EDT

Gatsby,

 I doubled checked the data base and no Panzerjagers are available before
1942.  Sounds like you encountered a bug in the program.  Hopefully Gary will
check it out.

 Jim Wirth
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 165       Fri Oct 20, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 08:49 EDT

Gary,

I've noticed that too.  I'll get the message that a unit is firing on a
target, but nothing happens -- no sounds, no gunflashes, no damage or
casualties.  It doesn't happen often, but I've seen it a few times in
virtually every scenario I've played.

BTW, those of you who dislike the emphasis on armor in the campaign games
should drop down to the canned scenarios and give them a try.  I've found
several that are either entirely infantry based or nearly so.  Examples are
the excellent Maleme airfield assault scenario, the Pegasus bridge scenario
(allthough the Germans do get a couple of AFVs in that one), and the Munda
Trail scenario.  If you want a taste of infantry only, you can get one through
the scenarios!

Stu

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 166       Fri Oct 20, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 16:32 EDT

G.Norman5: I've seen that one.  Sometimes, trying all three ways of firing
works.  Other times (like your instance) it doesn't happen.  I've got a save
to give to Gary so that he can prepare to fix it for v1.2

 What, v1.2?  What happened to v1.1?  Well, we are in the process of testing
the v1.1.  As soon as we have something which I'm satisfied will correct some
bugs and make the game better, I'll release it into grognard land (GEnie) and
see how you like it.

 Anything still not working properly in v1.1, will be corrected in the big fix
(e-mail, etc.) v1.2.
 Optimistically, the rev may be out tomorrow evening.  (Keyword here is MAY).
 I'll keep you all posted.

 Viking: Thanks!  Glad you like the game.

 John: The e-mail is functional.  The passwords will come later.

 Kato: Some AA guns do not work properly.  V1.1 (testing now) will correct
that.  Till then, use the 50 cals off of your 1/2 tracks, they work fine ;-)

 Stu: (IMO)Stinging The Bear is a good scenario with few armor pieces as well.

 Matt S.
 SSI
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 167       Fri Oct 20, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 19:28 EDT

This is the readme.txt file that I have included in a new home-grown
 scenario for SP. I hope that you guys enjoy it, and will have some
 _constructive_ criticism as well (no flames accepted<g>)


BTW - the file is called DANUBE.ZIP


Drive for the Danube (Gds.Counterattack,Nov 44)

Dateline : Budapest
 Date     : November, 1944
 Situation: Not so good...


Introduction:

Well folks, here it is. The very first Wolfgang Original for Steel Panthers,
 probably the best tactical sim EVER conceived, let alone produced.

This scnenario, and many to come, are intended to satisfy the Grognard in us
 all. Those who, weary of the random scenario generator and it's limitless
 disbursment of _rare_ military hardware, desire a bit more historical realism
 in their sims. It's also for you gamers who have cut your teeth in the ASL
 world. I think you'll recognize some of the great ASL scenarios that gave
 birth to the design of the scenario herein. But enough babbling... On to the
 Battle !!


Situation: Desperate Drive for the Danube

It's November, 1944. The Reich is being assailed from all sides. Germany
 stands alone against the combined might of the entire world. Only Hungary
 remains stalwart, if somewhat ineffective.
 While the war was still going well, Hungary's regent Miklos Horthy remained
 a staunch supporter of Hitler. By Spring 44', however, Horthy had become
 disenchanted and this word reached Hitler, who promptly occupied Hungary.

So much for the background history lesson.

This scenario depicts what may have been a typical small unit action at the
 outskirts of the Hungarian capital. Soviet troops of the Third Ukranian Front
 stubbornly fought their way into the heart of Budapest. One of the German
 units that was involved in the fighting in Budapest was the German 357th
 Infantry Division. In this scenario, elements of the 357th hold vital
 strong points in the Southwest portion of Budapest, namely the Town Hall.
 An engineer platoon of the 357th attempts to seize a factory complex several
 blocks to the West. The German battallion commander has radiod HQ for armor
 support, since he has heard the rumbling of Soviet armor just to the north of
 the Town Hall. A scratch kampfgruppe from the 5th SS Pz Division Wiking is
 dispatched to restore the situation, practically just as it is being unloaded
from the train from Poland. And you thought this was going to be a nice
"Danube Waltz" ...

The rest is up to you ....

FYI : The scenario has been designed to be played from the German side -
 although it may be as easily enjoyed from the Soviet side. I have only
 play-tested it from the German, so if you play the Rusks you are on your
 own.

Send comments via e-mail to: d.roberts57 on GEnie or
                             tortious@utkux.utcc.utk.edu

PS: I haven't played it out to the conclusion - the victory hexes may need
 to be adjusted. If this is the case, please let me know....



Have fun !!!


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 168       Fri Oct 20, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 19:42 EDT

Matt S.

Yes, Stinging the Bear has few AFVs (all on the Russian side), but is not a
very entertaining scenario to play against the AI as the Finns unless you like
total walkovers.  I've played it twice and won both times after just three
turns of slaughter.

Is it my own erroneous opinion, or is Smoke just a little too plentiful in
this game?  Maybe I'm too used to ASL, where my Smoke grenade drs always seem
to come up "4".

Also, does anybody know how to review the battlefield after a canned scenario
is finished?  I get the score, but the map won't scroll and then anything I
click or press kicks me out of the map to the verbal summation and the rolling
video clip.

I sure wish this game also had hex_side_ cover, like walls and hedges.  I
don't see how a bocage scenario or campaign could be played without them! But
we all have our own wish list for this terrific game, so near to perfection
...

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 169       Fri Oct 20, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 19:48 EDT

Wolfgang,

Thanks for the scenario!  I know how to retrieve it from the library, but what
do I do then?  Do I just copy it to the Steel Panthers directory?  If so, will
it magically appear on my scenario list?

When will it be available in the Library?  I understand there are delays
involved.

I realize these may be stupid questions, but then I am rather stupid at things
at times!

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 170       Fri Oct 20, 1995
R.HEINZ [Bob-in-Fla]         at 20:52 EDT

Wolfgang:
 >Back to the city on the Volga....

dont forget your long johns! <g,d,r>

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 171       Fri Oct 20, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 21:36 EDT

Guys, Gary,

I had to e-mail Dondo to tell him to hold the DANUBE scenario - I played it
out all the way and realized that it didn't seem to have an end ! I said to
myself, "Shit! You forgot to put a turn limitation on it !" So I want back to
do so and found out that this is not possible ! Unless I am missing
something.... How do you specify the number of turns allowed in a home-grown
scenario ????


Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 173       Fri Oct 20, 1995
WISHER                       at 23:30 EDT

 I love Steel and would like to thank Gary for giving me  something that I
have been waiting for a very long time.  I know the game isn't Squad Leader
exactly but in some ways I think it is better and in others I will admit it is
found slightly lacking. But I must say that no game on  the market in my
opinion has ever come this close to  recreating Squad Leader in a computer
form.

There was a post awhile back about if you don't like the  way that the preset
battles are setup then go in and make your own or if you think a gun is to
cheap then change  the unit value in the editor.  I am in the process of
recreating one of my favorite Squad Leader battles  (The Tractor Works) and
will upload it when I am done.  I haven't gotten a chance to play the  E-Mail
option yet  but I am hoping that the things said that don't work are  from not
understanding the play sequence or bugs and  not design chose's.

I do have a quesion for you Gary, is there any chance  that the feature
mentioned in the manual about the map  editor where you can place a building
on a map hex  and continue to left click until you get a building you like for
the hex being implemented either in the up coming  version or later?  I know
that it works for the tree's  and I believe it works for all the other
terran's, but  not the Stone or wood buildings.

I can't wait for the Modem option for Steel to come  and would love to see
this game go On-line  Multiplayer,  HINT, HINT :).

Thanks,  Chris Young  Producer, Online Services
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 174       Fri Oct 20, 1995
L.SHARP [SABRE]              at 23:50 EDT

Wolfgang,

You old dog you.  Thanks for another GREAT scenario.  A real nail biter. Did
not have a clue as to what I was up against.   Those dang Sturms were nasty.

ALL,

If you guys like an infantry engagement with just a smattering of armor,
inside a city this one is quite enjoyable.  Too bad this system does not have
multiple level buildings.

I managed a marginal victory at around 20 turns.


Sabre
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 175       Sat Oct 21, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 00:02 EDT

Wolfgang,

The scenario should end automatically after 20-30 turns. You can test this out
by setting the game to BOTH COMPUTER and checking to see when it ends.

Gary
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 176       Sat Oct 21, 1995
A.BBAUX [Mopic]              at 02:22 EDT

I give up.. I surrender!.......

3 Sherman 105's
 2 Sherman Flames

Attacked a tree land hex, the hex behind it is burning from sherman 105's
 testing the hex for hidden troops.  my Engineers was being attacked from
 the trees.  I call in close support (hint: Sherman 105's and Sherman Flames)

I had my units blast the hex with 105's guns and flamethrowers using the
 "Z" option.  While for some reason the flamethrowers and 105's don't burn
 it, and since I can't id any units until they're in my line of sight or
 move.  I figure even ground units couldn't sit in that hex for long.

OK, move a sherman flame forward to the next adjacent hex, and sure enough
 boom... GE Ground Troops started blasting me.. what gives.. If my ground
 troops so much as take any adjacent mortar rounds they're suppressed with
 no ammo and can't move.  Its as though ground units don't take any damage
 unless they're identified first... Please check this routine...

If my Engineers move near, or my half-track blows up from enemy fire
 sometimes I loose my entire Eng. squad with 30+ suppression points,
 meaning I can't fire, move just sit there burning to death.  Well the same
 should and hopefully is applying to the enemy units...

Another thing,  When said GE units "Retreat", they only go so far then
 proceed back on station after they're suppression points are down. whereas
 my unit seem to run competely the opposite direction at full speed even
 in the line of fire and rarely pinned.   This is surely bumming me out

maybe I need some defensive missions so I can have my units sit there and
 wait for him to come walting across..:)


Mopic

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 177       Sat Oct 21, 1995
B.MAKOWSKY [Julie&Magic]     at 06:50 EDT

Wolfgang,

I played a France '40 scenario as the Germans against the British (Long
Campaign) and was attacked by Blehmins(sp)  They were heading for my 88 and
both my track mounted flaks opened up on them (they flew within 4 hexes of
them).  One damaged the first plane and the 88 finished it from about 3 hexes
away.

BTW the crash was cool it went over the 88 in a burning power dive and made a
big firey crater about 3 hexes away.  I am glad it wasn't a Japanese pilot.

Where are the options for reinforcments?  I don't need them in a campaign but
they would add to a generated scenario.

Rich,

re: Modem Play

Even better would be two systems and Null modem.  That way you can taunt and
laugh when he watzes his matildas into that well crafted 88 ambush.

Bob Makowsky
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 178       Sat Oct 21, 1995
B.MILLER31 [Brad Miller]     at 07:18 EDT

Wolfgang,

During the "Deploy Forces" phase, if you press the "." (period) key, you will
be asked to specify the number of turns.

Brad
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 179       Sat Oct 21, 1995
B.MAKOWSKY [Julie&Magic]     at 07:26 EDT

Mopic,

Try playing human to human (sort of a solitare) and see if the same things
happen.  (Ie GE not vacating a hex under severe direct fire etc).

Magic
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 180       Sat Oct 21, 1995
M.DWYER1 [Jabo]              at 09:02 EDT

Gary Grigsby,

Here is my wish list for changes in the update. Most of these are probably of
little importance but I thought I would bring them up.

1. In U.S. TO&E there is no such thing as a submachineguns squad.  In a recon
unit or in a tank unit the crews had a large number of them for self defence.
Even in the airborne squad there was only one assigned.  That does not mean
that they did not pick them up but to give the player a choice of an entire
platoon of them is wrong.

2. The only way to get a bazooka in the eary or mid war period in the game is
to buy a seperate bazoka team or to buy a SMG squad.  They are not given to a
regular rifle squad.

3.  The suppresion for taking hits from large caliber HE should be much
higher.

4. The icon for the M-3 Grant tank has the main gun on the left side.  It
should be on the right.

5.  I would like a way to force my tank crews to bail out if I think their
situation is bad.  I have had veteran crew in a sherman who were immobalized
by a panther.  The panther was about 1000 yds out and there was no way the M4
was ever going to survive.  The crew stayed with the vehicle and was killed
the next turn. This has happend several time.  It is a shame to lose veteran
crews because they are to stupid to get out in this situation. Please give me
a bail button.

Thanks for the great game.  I have been losing lots of sleep in the last 2
weeks.  Mike Dwyer.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 181       Sat Oct 21, 1995
SAM.BAKER [V'ger]            at 11:20 EDT

Y'all,

This is from the sidelines as I fear that if I bought SP I might be distracted
from completing my Crusader:NR assignments.  <g>  (Wishing my multiple sets of
SL stuff were here to peruse.)

How does SP handle the multiple turrets of the early Sov tanks such as the
"land battleship" T35a?

Why not include a rarity factor as they did in SL that players (computer and
human) have to roll against to see if a desired vehicle is available for that
scenario?  As I recall that system worked pretty well for SL.

Wolfgang,

I remember how to pronounce it, but maybe not how to spell it. <g>
Nerferteidegungswaffe, I think.  (I spelled it from how I remember it being
pronounced.  I don't have my SL stuff with me down here in FL.)


Between fun and accuracy
 I prefer accurate fun.
 V'ger gone
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 182       Sat Oct 21, 1995
P.POMERANTZ1 [Phil]          at 11:38 EDT

Jabo,
 I don't think Bazookas were intially distributed as TO&E to rifle platoons,
but were parceled out from batallion level to the line units. I don't have a
reference handy, but if that is the case, that would be why you would have to
purchase bazooka teams separately.
 Phil
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 183       Sat Oct 21, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 12:59 EDT

I figured out the the way to specifiy turn length in case anyone is interested
- just hit "." (period). Now, how the heck do you enter a text description of
the scenario ? It mentions this feature in the manual but I can't figure out
how to do it...


Thanks,


Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 184       Sat Oct 21, 1995
J.HEBERT3                    at 13:01 EDT

 I find that most ambushes are spoiled by having infantry ride on my tanks.
 When I move next to a hex that contains hidden infantry, I usally get a
 message, "Infantry Assault Aborted," the enemy squad appears and my squad
 dismounts (usualy with about 15 suppression). I then proceed to pound
 the enemy squad with my tank's guns.

 I've been reading the book The Munda Trail, and there were lots of
 instances that Japanese infantry would pull back, especially on the
 attack. They mainly tended in be immovable when in some sort of forti-
 fication. I think Japanese squads in SP should be able to be routed,
 especially when they are advancing or assaulting. Maybe their "break
 point" could be higher than most, with even a random chance that they
 would not rout.

 Also, I wonder if a switch could be added to the beginning of a random
 scenario or long campaign that sets the computer to "infantry heavy;"
 the AI could then be limited to maybe 25% armor. Just a thought.
 --- Joe H.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 185       Sat Oct 21, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 13:10 EDT

Julie&Magic,

I agree - the editor would really be slick if you could specify reinforcment
turn and hex. The way I handled it in DANUBE was to put the reinforcing Gerry
armor far enough away that it would take at least three turns to engage. Not
entirely satisfactory, but a decent work-around....


Wish I had the opportunity to see a flaming Typhoon or A-26. Haven't shot ONE
plane down, and lord knows I've been hit by a lot (20 campaign scenarios so
far as Germans)


Jabo - (stay _AWAY_ from my Tigers <g>)

I agree - a BAIL button would be GREAT.. How bout' it Gary ???


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 186       Sat Oct 21, 1995
DONDO                        at 18:57 EDT

Ok, Wolfgang's scenario [10177] is cleared and ready.  Sorry it took so long,
but just got back this AM from vacation.

BTW, outstanding scenario, Wolfie!  First one I have played where I only
achieved a marginal victory [792-95].  Thanks!  Ai still wimpy, though:).

==Dondo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 187       Sun Oct 22, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 08:17 EDT

Jabo,

 The US SMG squads are a design compromise necessitated by the inability to
have more than one type of small arm (rifle, smg, or semi-auto rifle) in a
unit.  While the Americans never created "pure" SMG units per se, the
percentage of SMGs in American infantry units continuely increased throughout
the War.  If you wish to be as historically accurate as the game system
allows, SMG squads should be "mixed" with rifle squads using the cross
attachment routine.  Even in airborne units in 1945, the ratio of SMG to rifle
squads probably shouldn't be higher than 50 -50.

 Bazookas were issued to American heavy weapons platoons at a rate of 3 per
platoon.  You can create the core of a heavy weapons platoon by selecting 1
machine gun section, 1 bazooka section and 1 60mm mortar section.  The
inclusion of bazookas in SMG squads was done to give these squads greater
staying power when they are being used to represent "elite" units like
paratroopers.  Admittedly this decision causes bazookas to be over represented
but this can be corrected in the same manner I outlined above.

 Jim Wirth
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 188       Sun Oct 22, 1995
B.MAKOWSKY [Julie&Magic]     at 10:05 EDT

Wolfgang,

Stay away from those A-26s.  They are nasty.  Kill them or go hide in smoke. I
notice too that the game really targets my 88s.  IF they are towed then their
carriers will get whacked.  If they are set up then any aristrikes will target
them.  It's dangerous out there.

I have been toying with the idea of a spare set of prime movers.  They are
cheap and the way the AI goes at them they would make excellent Airstrike and
main gun soaks.

Reinforcment and Airborne drops would bring all that we need to run any battle
from WW-II

Magic
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 189       Sun Oct 22, 1995
MO.MORGAN                    at 10:08 EDT

Mopic,

I didn't have to use the Direct Fire button to get my engineers to throw a
satchel charge on an adjacent tank--they did it automatically when they
assaulted.  Didn't use the flamethrower though.  That may take the DF button.

Mo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 190       Sun Oct 22, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 11:01 EDT

Sabre and I have been playing a PBEM game. The first one went alright. When we
tried to start the second one up, major problem arose. I selected the battle
generator, set both players to computer, auto-force selection, then went into
my turn to deploy. After deploymen, I hit END TURN, then saved it. When I sent
it to him, he went in and tried to set the Russian player to human (it had
switched over to computer), and he got the message "This option not allowed in
campaign games." ??!@!!  I tried several mock runs on my machine and it did
the same thing 3 times in a row. Of course, this was not a campaign game so
what gives ?


Wolgang

BTW: if you guys can get the PBEM to work right, it is a real blast !


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 191       Sun Oct 22, 1995
MO.MORGAN                    at 11:42 EDT

Wolfgang,

Your Danube scenario sounds like fun.  Sounds like SysOp Dondo has cleared it
for download.  I shot down a Hurrie yesterday in North Africa--I had lots of
AAMGs hit him and my unlimbered 88 took a crack at him too (and probably
racked the hit points up enough to give me a kill).  I kept going back and
looking at the flaming and smoking debris--great satisfaction!

V'ger,

SP handles multiple gun tanks pretty well--to wit, the Lee/Grant tanks
 in North Africa with the one slewable (but unturreted) 75mm main gun and the
other gun up in the rotatable turret.

Magic,

I agree with your hypothesis about getting a couple of spare prime movers and
my next battle will have them.  My PM tracks seem to attract "attention" and
nothing else will haul an 88.  That attraction is something we can use to
craft some delightful ambushes of aircraft or tanks!  Good idea not to leave
your arty back alone without some halftracks or armored cars to protect them
from "chance encounters".  The AI has some excellent overhead intelligence
platforms--wish I knew where the enemy artillery was.  I would love to do a
scenario of the glider attack at Fort Eben Emael.  I guess I will have to
craft it so I have the FJ infantry already landed since we can airdrop them.

Hey Gary and SSI--
 How about some gliders and paradrops?  (We don't want MUCH, do we?)  You can
probably use the barge type carrier (but can't carry tanks) as the vehicle for
these--just make the transports look like Ju-52/DC-3 and make some gliders
that are towed behind the haulers and cut their lines (actually the gliders
COULD already start with the tow line cut).  The motorized air carriers would
start out the game on your own edge of the map and can fly over any terrain.
You just hit the Unload button to either drop the paras out (they come out in
a string, just like the bombs, and should scatter on the way down) or cut the
tow line for the gliders (unless you want the gliders to start already cut).
Once released, the gliders would have a movement area highlighted (give them
one or two turns to glide) and would land/dismount the troops (with random
suppression of squad for bad landings, perhaps influenced by terrain type).
While the essential game gives the capability to play with airborne forces
already on the ground, actually bringing them in and dropping them illustrates
a very important aspect of the problem (like landing forces on a beach in
barges) and makes the game even more fun.

Mo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 192       Sun Oct 22, 1995
ARMY.TIMES [G.WILLIS]        at 15:55 EDT

Wolfgang,

Great job on the Danube scenario! I spent four hours glued to my screen in one
of the most absorbing wargaming experiences of my life (I laughed, I
cried...two thumbs up!) My score: Marginal victory as Germans, 748-187

The Soviets really come hurtling out of that factory complex at the start. My
engineer platoon fell back to the large white building near the bridge and
held on by their fingernails. The friendly armor arrived just in time to
prevent collapse, but the tough armor on those KVs and SUs often would deflect
even point-blank shots. What an inferno of flames and wrecks that building
became...My defenders eventually routed, and I retook the building on the next-
to-last turn with my last two fresh squads and the brave crew of a destroyed
halftrack (who fought room-to-room with only their pistols). Fog of war was
very high in this battle, since it's hard to tell where the Soviet flank is
and how far they have infiltrated into the city. Just as I thought I had the
factory fight in hand, I looked in shock to see that
 city hall had fallen (no Reds were defending it, though, when I went back to
retake it). Also, several Soviet platoons had infiltrated to the south of the
double bridge -- it was fun to comb through the city, block by block, with my
armored car and infantry to ferret them out. I eventually trapped them next to
the river, where quite a few routed and frightened Soviets were huddling. I
don't know if anyone else has had this happen -- but the Soviets actually
tried to SWIM the Danube to escape! Some men seemed to make it one or two
hexes off shore, where they presumably succumbed to the chilly November
temperatures. Thanks again!
 -- Grant

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 193       Sun Oct 22, 1995
V.NEWELL [VENOM]             at 16:22 EDT

        Has any one notice on the Sea Lion mission during a campaign when I
scroll the map to the last victory hex I hit a error and get thrown to DOS.

                        VENOM.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 194       Sun Oct 22, 1995
R.WINSLOW4 [Cho]             at 18:31 EDT

 All *right* -- using the "Z" button, one of my engineer squads blasted
 a KV-1, that had blithely sauntered up, to kingdom come (or people's
 paradise) using the flamethrower.  A redundant satchel charge was tossed
 onto the bonfire, too.

 I'll strongly second the tactic of loading infantry onto tanks (not
 halftracks) for sighting benefits.  In fact, I find infantry just plain
 superior for sighting.  It really is logical, and I like the tactics it
 forces: send infantry into those woods, towns, and seemingly open ground.
 I hated stumbling into those assault ambushes with my AFV's, and now it
 makes more sense.

 I also had that message about a campaign game when I tried to load a
 battle I had created.  SSI, you listening?



 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 195       Sun Oct 22, 1995
C.MACHLAN [Curtis]           at 19:14 EDT

Gary,

 Is it possible to give us the option of destroying a building or not with our
vehicles?  Say the enemy is approaching from the east.  Well, I drive a tank
through a west facing wall and line up for a shot through a window or
something to hit the enemy as they come down the road.  Just a thought :)



                                                        Curtis
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 196       Sun Oct 22, 1995
L.SHARP [SABRE]              at 19:23 EDT

Awww Curtis,

You've been watching "Kelly's Heroes" too much.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 197       Sun Oct 22, 1995
C.MACHLAN [Curtis]           at 20:42 EDT

Sabre,

>You've been watching "Kelly's Heros" too much.

 Actually, I've only seen it once and that was quite a few years ago. Anyway,
it just seems like a possibilty to me as I've never been on the battlefield.


                                                        Curtis
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 198       Sun Oct 22, 1995
D.WOODARD5 [DougW]           at 21:10 EDT

Wolf,

Played your scenario. Nice job. Refreshing change from the "tank heavy"
computer generated campagins. In response to "tanks are more fun" I found this
scenario "fun". Medals are forthcoming for the "B" engineners(sp) for mutiple
tank kills in close assults with sachel charges, "E" SMG squad for retaking of
the town hall, and the timely tank reforcements. Final score 764 to 72 turn 11
or so.

So far have only suffered a minor defeat once. That was one of those "message
from headquarters" deals. Tried to press an advance.

Super job Gary.

Doug
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 199       Mon Oct 23, 1995
M.KENNEDY20 [MAK]            at 01:52 EDT

Sabre-

RE You've been watching "Kelly's Heroes"...  ROTFL

Hey Curtis, if you could do that then what about the nurse from Cross of Ir...
< SLAP! > ... Oh, sorry.


MAK
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 200       Mon Oct 23, 1995
B.MAKOWSKY [Julie&Magic]     at 08:26 EDT

Mo,

Yes I am going to try a PM ambush setup today :)

As far as Paradrops I don't think we need to go as far as having the
carriers/gliders show up.  If you could designate drop zones and have the
units attempt to come down there it would work fine. I would expect scatter to
play havoc with the landings though as the scale of 50 meters per hex would
allow units all over the map.  A high suppression on the landing turn would
simulate disorganized status.  Now that I think about it maybe I don't want
Paradrops maybe I'll just do a scenario where they have landed.

Been hacking around with an Arnham setup of just the initial counterattack
across the bridge by the Germans against the 1st Para dug in.  I don't have my
books and notes here (Am in Chicago doing Search and Rescue Duty for 2 weeks)
but from memory have been having fun.  If I get it clean enough I will upload
it.

Wolfgang,

Kudos for the Danube Scanario.  I have started it but got busy at work here
and intend to finish it today.  Well crafted.
 Magic
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 201       Mon Oct 23, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 13:51 EDT

Wolfgang: I've seen that one.  Don't set both players to computer at the
beginning if you want to play human vs. human.

 Matt S.
 SSI
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 202       Mon Oct 23, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 17:53 EDT

Bug Report!

        Don't know or remember if anyone has had a bad map bug, but I've had
them twice so far in trying to setup a campaign game starting in Poland 1939.

        The map for the Poznan scenario, the very first one, gets cut off
about midway down from the north.  The top half of the map seems to be OK, but
the area about three hexes south of the bridge has the gray border squares
running from west to east, effectively chopping off the bottom half of the
map.

        The small map inset in the lower right of the screen below the Order
or Option icons also shows the normal upper half, but the lower half is black.

        Has anyone seen this bug before or know how to remove it.  I played
this scenario before when I ran the tutorial, and it looked OK then, and it
did so also in the followup scenario in the campaign.  I ran the single
scenario in Poland about the Polish cavalry, and the map was fine there also,
but it is messed up when I go back to retry a new campaign starting in Poland.

        I am running the game under WIN95...the units look fine, the sound and
game play seems OK, but the map is sure hosed up in this attempt to start a
campaign.!



Mike

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 203       Mon Oct 23, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 21:32 EDT

Julie&Magic, et al,


Thanks for the kind comments on the Danube scenario. The intention was to be
somewhat historically accurate while at the same time creating a scenario that
would be at least a little challenging. So far, the reports range from those
playing the Germans and getting a marginal, to one person playing the Sov's
(albeit, for the second time) and getting a marginal. So, I guess I achieved
what I set out for. I agree, that the modeling of airborne troops/gliders
would be great. I also agree that we need not see the graphic of the actual
"drop" - a simple designation of the target hex with the appropriate drift
modifier would be more than adequate.

To those of you who have yet to play this incredible game by EMAIL. DO IT. Now
! Sabreski and I are in our second e-mail campaign, and there is nothing like
calling the bast_rd on the other end of the war to gloat, or to bitch about
that tank that SHOULDN'T have been taken out, well, you get my drift...


RE: the Kelly's Heroes deal : Funny, but I was thinking about trying to create
a scenario based upon this situation. The problem is that since the stacking
limitation seems to be 2 infantry units (regardless of the number of men, eg,
20 men per hex) it would be rather difficult. I was also considering
attempting a Cross of Iron scenario in which 10-12 men attempt to cross the
Sov lines. The men would all be snipers to start. Then I would modify them.
Each would carry a SMG, maybe 3-5 potatoe mashers, and some would carry
satchel charges, maybe a flame thrower, etc. These men would all be VERY
elite, eg, experience of well over 100, and morale even higher. The problem is
that you can't stack more than 2 units in a hex, even if it is ONLY ONE MAN.
If Gary could change this so that the actual stacking limitaton would be 20
MEN then this kind of Cross of Iron, or Force 10 scenario would be VERY
doable...




Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 204       Mon Oct 23, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 21:57 EDT

All,     After a scenario, during a campaign, Battle Points are awarded to
repair/upgrade core units. If ALL of these points are not used, are they lost
or carried forward to the next scenario?
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 205       Mon Oct 23, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 22:52 EDT

i'll ask again since the last time these questions went unanswered....


1. The manual mentions a way to enter text into a home-grown scenario. How?

2. If the measure of a unit's command control or lack thereof is either the
radio contact it has with it's formation leader (eg, B0), or to be within 5
hexes and VISIBLE to the same, then how can a X0 unit EVER be out of contact ?
That is to say, how can an X0 unit ever be out of contact with ITSELF ?
 (example: B1, radio contact. In contact. B2, radio contact, in contact. B0,
(unit has a radio, and by definition CONTACT is measured by communication with
ITSELF), but listed as OUT OF CONTACT ?? PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS ONE !!! How can a
formation (0 unit) ever be out of contact, since by definition, contact is to
be within either radio contact with said unit or within 5 hexes and visible
??? WIERD....
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 206       Tue Oct 24, 1995
V.MILAN [Vic]                at 01:23 EDT

WOlfgang => Well, you _could_ do an "I've Been Working on the Railroad"
scenario for "Kelly's Heroes."
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 207       Tue Oct 24, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 06:13 EDT

Wolfgang,
        I think the x0 units are "in contact" with the A0 unit, which is the
group HQ. That's the way other Grigsby small unit games have worked, and I've
noticed that the A0 SMG infantry unit is always present in a scenario.

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 208       Tue Oct 24, 1995
B.MAKOWSKY [Julie&Magic]     at 07:06 EDT

Wolfgang,

You could do a Fugative(sp)  scenario as it stands now.  One sniper located on
the map has to get back to his lines.  The whole of the enemy forces are out
looking for him.  He gets spotted he dies hard.

Waiting for Los to return from Haiti so I can start my e-mail losing to him :)

Magic
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 209       Tue Oct 24, 1995
L.SHARP [SABRE]              at 07:30 EDT

SSI,

The email portion of this game needs to be looked into.  Wolfgang and I are
having a heck of a time getting a second game going.  He sends me a turn so I
can deploy my units.  I am unable to deploy and sent straight into my turn.
This has happened several times.  We have been on the phone  walking through
the save feature to make sure there were no mistakes.

We have completed one game by email with no problems.  So we do know how it's
suppose to be done.  The problem varies from turn to turn.  One time when I
was the Soviets, wolfgang sent me my turn and it was still his turn. Granted
that could have been a mistake on his part, but I personally don't think so.
I realize this type of bug is difficult to nail down.  Just take a look at it
if you get the chance.  Thanks.



Matt,  SSI,

I might suggest that you start an email game with me and possibly we could
duplicate the problem.  Then you would have a save game file to look at. Just
a thought.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 210       Tue Oct 24, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 08:38 EDT

Hi folks,

        Went back and started from scratch again on a new Poland 39 campaign.
This time thw map wasn't hosed up.  I wonder what caused the problem before.
I did buy fewer units this time, getting some aircraft instead.  Game played
fine, but I did get some type of error that booted me out of the game when I
finished buying support units for the next scenario in the campaign.  This bug
has happened to me before also, but I just return to the game at my last save,
finish the scenario, and retry the new purchases again.  I usually get by OK
the second time around, and can save the forces bought and continue with the
new scenario deployment.  I am running under WIN95, so I'm not sure if this
might not be a factor in the odd screens or dump to DOS happenstances.  I do
have more than enough free memory for the game.

        Some of you old and not so old grognards must really be good!  I have
yet to get more than a marginal victory in the first Polish scenario as the
Germans.  Am playing on the average level.  I really kill most of the Poles
and I had two armored cars and a tank immobilized, but no unit killed on my
side.  I end up with a score like 752 to 142.

        The Poles must REALLY get points if they put dents in your armor or
hit a track, sheesh.


Mike

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 211       Tue Oct 24, 1995
J.PORTER [Tombstone]         at 14:59 EDT

  Sabre,

   Unfortuantly, in PBEM play you cannot deploy your own troops. Each player
  is stuck with the preset positions dictated by the scenario. This is one
  of the many reasons I would love to see a modem option added to the game.

   Mav & I have played at least a dozen email games & haven't had any prob-
  lems sorting out who's turn it is. You just have to remember to pick human
  player each time b4 you start your turn. Because of the long delay be-
  tween turns, we've been playing 2 scenarios at once. I always save to
  email1 & he saves to email2 in order to avoid any confusion. We also have
  batch files made that copies the files to C:\Steel & deletes the file from
  the download directory so you'll be ready to d/l the next turn via zmodem.
  This takes -some- of the hassle out of email play...

 Wolfgang,

  We've enjoyed playing your Danube "waltz" via email.<g> You did a nice job
 of selecting units & positions without too much disparity between the op-
 posing forces. The German Engineers by the town hall came in handy on one
 occasion. I had a unit make a flamethrower attack on a hex that was oc-
 cupied by two Soviet tanks & to my shock & surprise, both tanks blew up! :)

  We've played it twice so far and each time, the Germans win a minor vic-
 tory. Lots of carnage in that one. <g>

 All,

  The 1.1 patch is available from the SSI bbs (408)739-6137 & (408)739-6623


              "Tombstone"


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 212       Tue Oct 24, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 19:12 EDT

Matt (SSI.SUPPORT),

        Will the Steel Panthers patch be available in this library?
 How big is the patch,and is it a final version?

        I definitely noticed the turn bug today.  Played the campaign starting
in Poland, and finished the second scenario with a marginal victory because at
the start of the scenario the turn length was listed as 24 (or maybe 28) turns
down in the lower right of the screen.  But...the game ended on turn 10.  I
had been playing the scenario from its start, and did save several times, but
never exited the game.  Does the patch fix the turn length bug?


Mike

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 213       Tue Oct 24, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 20:19 EDT

John,

I don't think thats the deal. Because if this were the case, as soon as your
A0 was destroyed, then everyone would be out of contact. Also, on page 31 of
the manual, it says, "Units are either in our out of contact. If the unit
carries a radio, it is never out of command control; otherwise it loses
contact with the FORMATION unit HQ if it is farther than 5 hexes away, or if
it loses visual contact." Apparently, according to this proviso, units in or
out of contact status should be determined by 2 factors: 1) Whether or not
they and their formation (X0) leader have radios, or 2) whether or not they
are within 5 hexes and within LOS of their formation leader. Apparently, the
need for communication link with the battallion commander (A0) is not
required. So my question is, if a X0 unit has a radio, how can it EVER be out
of contact, since be definition, it must always be in contact with itself?
Yet, I've seen X0 units listed as out of contact !

Does the foregoing make any sense at all ?



Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 214       Tue Oct 24, 1995
PAS.JPD [Jaded Gamer]        at 20:38 EDT

The patch is available over on CIS, as well.  I haven't installed it yet, but
among other things, it fixes the "shoot and scoot" problem. When you load a
gun onto its transport, it loses all its shots for the rest of the turn.

I'm sure Matt will have it up here really soon.  He seems pretty on the ball.
In fact, it looks to me like he's the best online rep in this board.

Jaded

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 215       Tue Oct 24, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 21:35 EDT

     During combat, the hit results flash, in red, at the bottom of the
screen. Normally, these messages stay visible for the time set on the 'delay
time'. However, some rather critical hits, such as 'loss of main gun' flash
off so fast as to be unreadable. This results in having to find the target
again and R-click to determine the damage.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 216       Tue Oct 24, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 21:59 EDT

I've found a problem in the France campaign. I finish the first game but after
I fix my units I'm dumped back to the main screen. I get no chance to go to a
new scenario and all I can do is restart the scenario from the last place I
saved it.

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 217       Tue Oct 24, 1995
L.SHARP [SABRE]              at 22:06 EDT

I forget who posted about not being able to deploy units during an email game.
I beg to disagree.  Wolfgang and I are currently playing a game now where we
did manage to both deploy our units.


Sabre
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 218       Tue Oct 24, 1995
DONDO                        at 22:17 EDT

Just got home and found the Patch.  Am dling now, should be up by 12AM EDT. It
is about 500k, so not too bad.

==Dondo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 219       Tue Oct 24, 1995
V.NEWELL [VENOM]             at 22:19 EDT

        Mike: The same thing happens to me in DOS.  I am guessing here, I
think if it can't find the file it will kick you out.


                        VENOM.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 220       Tue Oct 24, 1995
J.PORTER [Tombstone]         at 22:50 EDT

  Sabre,

   re: deploying your own units in PBEM game

  Cool..how did you do it? And were you able to deploy without your opponent
 knowing where they were too?

              "Tombstone"

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 221       Tue Oct 24, 1995
J.RECZEK                     at 23:13 EDT

Hey Guys..
 First of all.. BURNING question!!

 ANYONE WANNA PLAY THIS EMAIL???

 I like the Brits.. <G>

 Where is the patch ?? Can't find it..

 Anyways.. I also managed to find a major bug..
 At least, its making the campaign unplayable..

 I'm playing the  short campaign, versus the French as the Germans..

 Now, in BOTH the 3rd and 4th battles, I experienced this problem.  I would
save the game, and come back to it later.  When I came back to it, it ended
the scenario rather quickly.. Actually, the scenario ended on turn 6 in one
case.  Also, I had MINIMAL enemy contact (meaning that obviously the scenario
wasnt supposed to end yet).

 What is causing this save-game-change-battle-length bug??!   Its VERY
irritating, and making the campaigns unplayable..

 Any ideas??

 Also, I played the scenario entitled THE FACTORY.
 For some reason, many units in certain squares can see through buildings, and
i find my squads, which were hiding directly behind a building, coming under
direct fire from some piece that clearly should have no LOS.. Whats the deal
with the LOS in cities?? I think its messed!

 Also, Mr. GRISBY, PLEASE fix up how infantry are transported around on
whatever with NO penalties to both the carrier (tank) or them.   How on earth
would a tank fire if its got a squad of infantry on it? Also, its just too
easy to pile the infantry on a tank, and then pop them off beside the enemy
for an assault.. shouldnt there be a limit to the number of loads/unloads
RATHER shouldnt they waste time (movement points) for the tank as the infantry
is loaded???

 Great game tho! I love it ..

 --Jake
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 222       Tue Oct 24, 1995
DONDO                        at 23:25 EDT

Ok, the 1.1 patch is now available as file 10178.  Here is the list of
correctrions:

Steel Panthers v1.1 revision notes and readme file

SSI and Gary Grigsby continue to work towards a version with the e-
 mail  passwords and any other features promised in the original
 readme file (below).
 We hope that these corrections make the game more enjoyable in the
 interim.

V1.1 Fixes

Steel Panthers v1.1 Fixes

1) A map edge game crash has been corrected.  This would occur when
 a user scrolled around the map and went over a corrupted map edge.

2) The encyclopedia option now available in purchase menu.

3) A campaign bug, support units will no longer become core units.

4) The game should now end when all VP hexes have been captured and
 all enemies are routed.

5) Left over scenario data garbage should not appear.  All
 campaigns and the editor should now start clean.  (Smoke and fire
 will still appear.  Hit the clear button)

6) Mechanized units with halftracks and motorized units with trucks
 are now more expensive (as they should be)

7) An artillery piece which has been loaded onto a truck
 (or other applicable transport) will lose all of it's shots for
 that round.

8) When the user is in a river crossing or amphibious assault
 scenario. Mechnized or Motorized units will not have their
 vehicles for the entire scenario.  The vehicles will return during
 the next scenario.

9) After finishing a scenario in a campaign, the user will
 have the option to save the game.

10) Mission button now informs the user if the next battle is a
 river or amphibious assault in campaigns.

11) All enemy units should not leave entrenchments to pursue one
 lost victory hex.  The AI will now intelligently decide whether to
 attack based on the number of hexes taken.

12) The game will no longer place too many mines in a hex.
 A human may still overload a hex with mines and/or dragon's teeth.
 Do not place more than 10 mines, or 2 dragon's teeth in a hex.

13) Units will no longer appear entrenched after loading a saved
 game  (or e-mail saved game).

14) Crew will no longer appear to be carrying an AT gun (57mm) when
 they've abandoned their gun (or it's been destroyed).  This
 occurred after loading a saved game (or e-mail saved game)

15) Lone crewman graphics will not appear in abandoned/destroyed
 gun emplacements when a saved game (or e-mail saved game) is
 loaded.

16) Motorcycle units can no longer destroy buildings by moving
 through them like armor can.  Motorcycles are treated like infantry
 for this purpose.

17) AA guns will now shoot enemy aircraft if not engaged with
 ground forces.

18) Motorcycle crews now abandon their vehicles when they
 have become immobilized.

==Dondo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 223       Wed Oct 25, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 00:46 EDT

Got the patch - so far I haven't had a chance to really give it a workout, but
I have noticed something that appears to be different that wasn't mentioned in
the read.me. Artillery barrages now will hit a particular hex, and the
graphics of the shell holes _seem_ to indicate now that there is some sort of
increased radius or scatter effect. I have had 8" naval gunfire hit in, say,
hex 20,20, and then shell holes appear in several adjacent (and apparently
random) hexes. The same thing happens with the German 105's (yea, I'm playing
the Yanks - I wanted to see what it was like to have an air force <g>). Now,
this could simply be a graphic enhancement, but I think not. I have had hits
that, in 1.0, would have simply been near misses, destroy and/or disrupt units
in adjacent hexes. Has anyone else noticed this?

Haven't really had a chance to check out this thing real thoroughly yet. Its
too bad that the LOS problems weren't addressed in this patch, since IMO this
is one of the major problems, but as such, perhaps it requires more work to
correct.

Tombstone,

Sabre and I are currently in turn 2 of a German/Russian PBEM. We both were
able to deploy our own forces.

The following is a rough description of the next scenario I am designing:

On June 13, 1944, four Tigers and one PzIV of the Schwere SS Pz Abt. 101 met
the 7th Brit. Arm. at Cane and consumated the introduction by destroying 25-
30 Cromwells without any losses to d=^.[;es. This was an action led by the
leading tank ace of WWII, Michel Wittman. His tank and crew in this action
alone knocked out over 20 British tanks. He already had more than 117 kills
before being transferred to the Western front from Russia. As a result of this
battle, Wittman was promoted and received the Swords to the Knights Cross with
Oakleaves. Wittman's unit the SSPzAbt 101 was eventually renamed the SSPzAbt
501, re-equiped with KonigsTigers, and took part in the Bulge. Now, how would
you like to face this fellow in his Tiger II in a measly Sherman ???

Be on the lookout for WITTMAN'S RAMPAGE...coming soon to GEnie...

Wolfgang
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 224       Wed Oct 25, 1995
S.MALCZAK [Ivan]             at 01:59 EDT

Hi All!!

  A couple of questions that maybe some of you who have been playing this game
to death might be able to answer <G>:

 1:How does Morale work in the game? I was playing the Russians in a 1941
campaign game and assaulting the Germans. I had my tanks leading about 6 hexes
 in front of dismounted grunts. In one turn, a godd portion of the tanks were
K.O'ed. When I got my next turn, all the infantry was routed even though they
had never been spotted let alone fired on...Any ideas??

 2:Has anyone gotten anywhere playing the Reds?? I usually play them in most
games (ASL included) and do quite well...In SP, I simply cant make 'em work.
My problem is the morale thing above and lack of numerical superiority. By
being limited to 48 units, you cant really outnumber your opponent  and for
the Russians is '41, numbers is about the only thing going for ya.


 Mr Grigsby:
   A few observations/suggestions...(anyone wanna jump on anything..feel free
<G>)
  1> Minefields are a little too lethal to vehicles. I lose about 25-50% of
the vehicles that hit even low factor mine hexes.
  2>The Flak 88 has to have its Laser Ranger-finder removed...It consistentl
kills 4 or 5 shots out of 6 vs. moving targets and targets in cover.  I admit
it was a wonderfully accurate weapon but and M1A1 would be hard pressed to
score the kills that they do ;>.
  3> Can you cut the ROF's down a little? It would both speed the game up and
allow units to react to enemy fire rather thatn sit there thru 5-6 shots per
enemy before being able to take action.  A 5 tank platoon can easily generate
30 shots in a turn and kill off an entire company plus without any chance for
the player to intervene.
  4> Allow units that "rally" duing the turn to remove their pin/rout/retreat/
etc status. Even reducing to 1 or 2 points from 40 or so still results in the
unit being useless that  turn.
  5> The retreat/fall back logic needs help...We constantly have experienced
troops pull back out of defensible and tenable positions into the open where
they proceed  to get slaughtered. If they are going to vacate a pos, at least
they should head towards another cover postition.
  6> Please, please, please allow selecition of more than 48 units. It would
make the Russian wave attacks and disregard for losses a viable tactic. (as
viable as such tactics can be ;> )
  7> Any chance of adding in "Barbed wire" etc??

 More to come as we get deeper and deeper into the game. :)

 We love it so far, and hope that will eventually evolve into the best WWII
wim ever!

                                             Thanx,
                                             Ivan
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 225       Wed Oct 25, 1995
L.SHARP [SABRE]              at 05:48 EDT

Ivan,

Ask Wolfgang about how measly the Russians are.

Sabre
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 226       Wed Oct 25, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 16:18 EDT

M.Bruha: The game does that after you play a small map.  Restart SP and it
won't do that.

 Wolfgang: I have no idea, send a save and I'll take a look.

 Sabre: Good idea since I play 5 concurrent e-mail games with members of my
staff and customers online, and have never seen that.  Pick a side and year,
and prepare to Eat Lead!  (I suggest using the "Battle" option for e-mail, not
many of the scenarios are close to even).  I have a few ideas as to how to
work this via e-mail.

 Tombstone: Batch files definitely help.  Not to mention that the saves
compress 20 to 1, so you almost _hafta_ use Pkzip or Arj on them anyway ,so
why not a batch file for it.

 Jaded: Awwww, I'm touched that you think so.  Actually, I put the Steel
Panthers update here within 1 hour of putting it on CIS, and America Online,
and the SSI BBS, and The Canadian Node (Instant Access),as well as
 wuarchive.wustl.edu  /pub/MSDOS_UPLOADS/game_updates).  Perhaps it simply
takes longer for GEnie to validate files.  Scorpia has a big jobhere ;)

 J.Reczek: I'm up to the challenge.  Of course, you may want to start with
someone a little easier... hahahaha ;)

 Ivan:  Thanks for the suggestions.  I disagree on some points, but we'll see
what is changed and what is not in the v1.2 rev.

 Matt S.
 SSI
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 227       Wed Oct 25, 1995
D.WOODARD5 [DougW]           at 19:57 EDT

Jake,

I plan to play this E-mail but am waiting for two things:

a) The patch

b) Our intrpid pioneers (the ones with the arrows in their backs) to give it a
"thumbs up" . Still to many questions popping up for me.

Doug
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 228       Wed Oct 25, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 20:00 EDT

Matt (SSI>SUPPORT),

        Glad to get your reply.  I did retry the scenario later (prior to your
message) and the map had reset...but it was a new campaign.  Wish I had known
I could have exited the game and restarted the old scenario, guess I do now
<g>.

        Have been playing with the new patch and it seems to work OK, but has
a new bug now!  The game turn number is never updated when you now save game
progress.  BY that, I mean, when you save during scenario play, you are
prompted for a file name.  I usually used the default before, which was a
scenario desciption and the turn number, and was automatically generated by
the save routine.  Now the scenario/turn # do not update as a default name.
 Instead, your old file name remains,whatever it my be.  So if it was "ger vs
Pol, some date, Turn 0", even if it is turn 8 the file name remains the same.
Prior to this the turn number was updated with your current turn number when
you saved over the old file slot.

        Perhaps this is related to fixing the scenario turn length bug.
Scenarios now have a consistent turn length if you save.

        Someone up topic reported only getting fortifications when selecting
support units for a scenario.  I confirm this alsoin this new update too, but
don't know if it is a bug..but I think so.  I was playing the Polish campaign
as Germans.  One scenario put me on the defensive.  When buying support units,
the only choice I had under artillery was Bunkers..no arty, no planes, nada.
I also had a choice for Bunkers (the same ones) in the Miscellaneous menu.
Now if your opponents have artillery when defending, shouldn't we also?  Or is
this one of those random things...like we may or may not have planes available
for purchase?

        I would like to buy mines and dragonsteeth in the units menu.  I never
saved any purchase points when buying support units, so I couldn't buy mines,
much less know what they cost.  How do you know how much to save for mines and
obstacles if you don't know to save buying points and the cost for them.  The
manual isn't clear on mine purchase.  Page 26 says you may place up to 4 mines
per hex...How come I run into enemy minefields with 12 to 15 mines in a hex???
Don't seem kosher to me!

LOVE THIS GAME.  Cut school today to battle in Poland...shame on me <g>.


Mike

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 229       Wed Oct 25, 1995
J.RECZEK                     at 21:17 EDT

Thanks for the replies guys!!

 Matt at SSISUPPORT--
 I will gladly play you if you think you can whip me :)
 I don't mean that I'm good or you suck, but it's like the German invade
Poland sceanrio.. You know Germany will win, but its fun playing Poland and
trying to turn the tide or getting lucky.

 Also, how do you play a random scenario over email?? Who generates it?? When
is unit purchases done??
 Lemme know if you wanna play.. mail me.. :)

 PROBLEM  (Mr. GRISBY)--
 My biggest problem with the game is that you can pound out most of your shots
at the start of a round (since you are positioned) and then still move your
whole move range.  What are you doing in real life?  You are either firing
while moving up (which can me done in the game so no problem), or you are
firing and THEN moving.. Doesnt it follow that you should then have LESS
movement points after firing initially??

 Also, it **REALLY** irritates me that changing facing costs no movement
points.. Turret twists can be considered taking no move points, but VEHICLE
turns??
 NO! There is absolutely no strategy in movement anymore because no matter
WHAT you do, you ALWAYS end up facing the enemy with your front armor!
 The only one that moves realistically is the computer, which maintains facing
as an indication of where its moving.. as it SHOULD be.. Also, i can move my
tank, and look around at each hex with no penalty!! Can you PLEASE do
something about this?? This is a lame aspect of this excellent game, but the
only one i can come up with !!  (loading unloading should take time too)..

 IVAN--
 In reply to some of your questions to Grisby..

 Mines aren't too much of a problem.. Just dont go the obvious ways.. I admit
I have lost many tanks to mines, but I can assure you that after one tank was
immobilized, no others were (went totally different way).. Also, I had my Pz
IVe go through 2-3 mine hexes before getting hit.. That  isnt too bad..

 Also, the rate of fire is fine.. The answer to a group of tanks killing a lot
is SAVE YOUR SHOTS! That way, you return fire, and suppress them, and you
don't get killed as much.. Works well for me

 --Jake


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 230       Wed Oct 25, 1995
LAST.RONIN [Kato]            at 21:40 EDT


        Having begun a couple of e-mail games, I find it too bad that you
can't deploy your own troops. Aside from finding a more challenging opponent
than the very basic AI, having to live with a default computer deployment
takes away a significant part of the MAJOR reason for playing by email--the
human factor (unit selection, placement, tactical plan, etc). It wouldn't be
so bad if unit placement was so poor, based on terrain and mission... (just
read that some people have managed to figure out how to deploy their units in
a PBEM game; if you truly can, than disregard some of the above).

        Which brings me to a second point. Although I'm having fun with this
game, a couple of points really bother me, because they're not only
unrealistic, but don't enhance playability (IMHO).
        1) Almost total disregard for the difference between "go," "slow- go,"
and "no-go" terrain (to armored or infantry units) and its effect on a
tactical plan. Add to this the complete disregard for terrain configurations
that should produce choke points.
        2) The bloated over-emphasis of a fairly insignificant elevation on
hit-chance and (it seems) damage. I'd submit that a 10' or 20' elevation
difference is fairly meaningless over ranges of more than 200-400 yards. It
certainly isn't enough to give you a "top" hit chance!
        3) The treatment of all units as though they were <5' high.
        4) Lack of regard for hull defilade placement.

        Want more? <g>
        Still a great game. Or it will be when modem play is introduced, as
advertised (as long as humans can deploy their units).

        For now, I guess the best bet is to custom create a long scenario,
start both sides from opposite map edges, and then allow 5 turns (or whatever)
for placement before beginning the battle....

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 231       Wed Oct 25, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 22:02 EDT

Mike,

 You usually cannot win a decisive victory without taking ALL the victory
hexes.  Perhaps you haven't been doing this.

 Ivan,

 Attempting to move pass burning tanks will demoralize infantry (think about
it) and cause them to retreat/rout.

 Soviets are at a definite disadvantage versus the Germans before 1943.  The
campaign game is not a good vehicle for playing them prior to then.  I suggest
keeping to DYO scenarios in the early War years to insure Soviet numerical
advantage.

 Incredible as it may seem, the effectiveness of the Flak 88 is actually
understated in the game.  Remember that this was an anti-aircraft weapon
designed to engage planes at altitudes in excess of 30,000 feet (200 hexes).
In the game, the 88 is limited to a range of 80 hexes and at as short a range
as 30 hexes it has a hit probability of only 50%.  It dominates the
battlefield because everything else only starts getting that kind of hit
probability at 20 hexes or less.  As to how the 88 compares to a modern tank
gun,let me cite just one example.  During the Gulf War, a British Challenger
destroyed an Iragi tank at 5,100 meters (over 100 hexes) with its FIRST ROUND.
A lucky shot?  Probably, but it still demonstrates that modern weapons greatly
outclass anything available in WWII, including the 88.

 Jim Wirth






 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 232       Wed Oct 25, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 22:11 EDT

All et Gary,

Has noone seen the new artillery barrage effects ? This seems to be an
undocumented change. Now artillery affects more than the hex that the shells
land in, or so it would seem. I'd like to hear from someone else who has
noticed this.

Some things that still need to be addressed:

1) LOS. Need I say more ?

2) Infantry riding tanks should dismount when the tank fires.

3) Someone else has suggested more than 48 units, specifically in regard to
the Russian's inability to mount numerically superior attacks. Not that I mind
this, of course, but it would be a nice feature.

4) The water/river flashing glitch is very annoying.

5) Sometimes I wonder if the "to hit" tables are accurate. Should a Sherman
_really_ have a 99% chance to hit an entrenched, sandbagged AT gun 20 hexes
away ???

Still loving this one... Game of the Year, No Doubt.

Anyone ever heard of Manutchskaya ? Read up on it in Von Mellenthin's _Panzer
Battles_  - this is the next (after the Whittman's Rampage) scenario that will
be forthcoming from this scenario designer...

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 233       Wed Oct 25, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 22:39 EDT

Wolfgang,
        I've seen the multiple hex effect of artillery barrages in the
original game I purchased out of the box. I've had men killed by these
barrages even though the original hex wasn't close to my units.

Kato,
        The elevation has a difference no matter if it's 10 feet or 100 feet
above the target. All the horizontal armor of WWII tanks was very thin and any
AT round that hit it would probably penetrate it. That's why aircraft were so
deadly vs tanks; the top hits and engine compartment hits were almost always
on the thinner armor.

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 234       Thu Oct 26, 1995
S.MALCZAK [Ivan]             at 00:02 EDT

Hello again guys:

  Jim Wirth:

Well, if the 88 was that good, which I agree could be but Ill doubt it always
was, then it should cost a lot more points for play balance.

As to the Challenger example...one hit does not make it the "norm". I agree
that it might happen now and then, but to interpret that as the usual would be
IMNSHO <G> a mistake.

The morale issue: My troops werent near any burning AFV's. They were at least
4-5 hexes away but they were in LOS...Any clues?? Does "battalion morale" play
a part.

Russians in pre 41 scenarios: Well, the game should compensate in points,
victory condittions or something to make the scenario interesting.  Still, it
is fun to try, and it makes the weak AI have some teeth. <G>


SSI etc.:

  Any ETA on the Modem play? Dying to try it...Hot seating it is OK but you
miss alot when you arent at the computer...all you hear is your AFV's going
BOOM.


                                         Back to the Front,
                                         Ivan
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 235       Thu Oct 26, 1995
C.MACHLAN [Curtis]           at 00:57 EDT

Gary/SSI,

 I installed the patch and now I've noticed that none of the scenarios in the
long campaign never last more than 4 turns.  The last one was a defend (can't
remember where) on the eastern front, and just as the KVII's started rolling
forward wiping my guys out the game ended.  I don't think this was suppose to
happen, was it?



                                                        Curtis
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 236       Thu Oct 26, 1995
M.KENNEDY20 [MAK]            at 01:06 EDT

Ivan-

Another question might be;  what (if anything) would an 88 do to a modern
tank?


MAK
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 237       Thu Oct 26, 1995
T.TREADWAY2 [Chief]          at 01:34 EDT

To all,

        Can someone give me a general idea of what this game is like?  Is it
turn based(ie. fire/move/fire)?  What nationalities are represented?  Is it a
good simulation or a good game or both?  Any general information would be
nice.

                                        Todd
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 238       Thu Oct 26, 1995
S.MALCZAK [Ivan]             at 01:35 EDT

MAK:

 In answer to your question...absoultely nothing if its to the frontal aspect.
Even w/ Modern ammunition, an 88 Flak doesnt have the muzzle velocity to
penetrate an M1 or T-80.

                                           Off th the Eastern Front,
                                           Ivan
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 239       Thu Oct 26, 1995
V.MILAN [Vic]                at 06:00 EDT

Dondo => Ooh. Those fixes look as if they should help _a lot_.  [Tho' I hope
the LOS problems get solved soon.]

Now if I could only _find_ the damned game!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 240       Thu Oct 26, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 14:35 EDT

Opinions:WeI appreciate everyone's opinions of the game and your
suggestions.We are listening, just don't expect that we wil agree that every
idea that's presented is a good one, or that every one will be implemented.
With taht in mind, please keep the information coming to us!

 J.Reczek: Here's how I suggest we do a generated battle.  You pick a date and
side.  Then pick units.  Send the unit list to me in a text file and I'll ask
someone else here to pick your units for you.  When it's your turn to place,
I'll send it to you, and we can continue from there.  If that's not to your
liking, make a suggestion.  I'll be happy to show you the ways of Steel
Panthers any way you like, grasshopper ;)

 Curtis: We'll have to try and think of a way to duplicate that.  I haven't
seen it when playing here.  Please send a save.


 Matt S.
 SSI
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 241       Thu Oct 26, 1995
C.MACHLAN [Curtis]           at 15:11 EDT

Matt,

 I just started the next battle in my campaign.  It is now on turn 4. I saved
it at that point and will get to it over the weekend sometime.  I'm wondering
if some how all the Soviet units were routed by turn 4.  I noticed in the
read.me file of the patch that if all victory hexes are owned and all enemy
units were routed the game would end.  I did have my 88s and my 50mm ATGs
setup in a nice kill zone.  By turn four (in the last battle) the Soviets had
lost well over 10 tanks.  However, the KV's were advancing through the trees
taking out my units hidden there.  Is it possible they became routed after
seeing their comrades destroyed?  Anyway, I'll keep you posted on this my
current battle (they're killing me in this city).

 Also, I was wondering if the Winter has anyeffects on the Germans besides
movement costs?  Shouldn't the Germans suffer with things like breakdowns,
clouded optics and freezing?


                                                        Curtis
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 242       Thu Oct 26, 1995
MO.MORGAN                    at 18:13 EDT

Wolfgang,

I can't find your Danube scenario (also looking forward eagerly to Wittman's
Revenge!).  Can you give me the file number so I can download it?

Mo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 243       Thu Oct 26, 1995
M.HEIDAL [Viking]            at 18:48 EDT

Anybody:

  Can i patch my current campaigns or do i have to start all over
 again ?



--Mike
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 244       Thu Oct 26, 1995
M.MARTINO [JAY]              at 18:53 EDT

        I tried the patch last night (gad, I'm not getting enough sleep). I
saw the same thing with the naming of the save file, it doesn't change. Is
this intentional? It's no big problem if so, I just freaked a bit when I saved
a game and came back to find that it hadn't saved (I thought).
        I agree with the moves vs shots problem mentioned above. Since the
number of shots can be reduced by suppression, maybe it can also be tied to
movement.
        The shot percentage only reflects the basic hit number based on the
firing unit I think. I've often had wide misses with a 99% chance to hit
showing, sometimes consecutively with the same unit. It seems some other
factors are taken into account, but aren't reflected in the given percentage.
        On LOS: The jury's still out for me. I'm not sure I like the whole hex
blocking idea, though I understand the need for it to simplify the code. I can
live with it though. The wierdly variable LOS I have mixed feelings about.
From experience I know that flat ground just isn't. There're all kinds of
little folds and dips in what appears to be flat terrain. What bothers me is
that there doesn't seem to be much logic to it. The example cited earlier
about looking down a straight road, having LOS to the first hex, blocked for
the next several, and then LOS to a hex some distance away is hard to figure.
I can see it if infantry hides in a fold in the ground, but if it's a KV-II
it's more like the Grand Canyon. I also don't like the exploding tanks. It
shouldn't happen every time. In any case I think wreck smoke blocks too much.

        See you in Poland.

        Jay
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 245       Thu Oct 26, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 19:13 EDT

Just saw a curious thing playing the canned Dinant scenario.  I had captured
all the Victory hexes with 4 turns remaining and destroyed all the French
units with two turns remaining.  At that point, I just began clicking "End
Turn" to get the game over with.  For the remaining two turns of the game, I
observed my most advanced German squads popping smoke and running for the
rear.  They were all in fine shape, had no suppression at the start of the
turn, were taking no fire -- they just bugged out after capturing the last
victory hexes.  It had no effect on the game, but it was rather comical to
watch.

Any explanation for why they behaved in that manner?

Up topic, I saw someone mention their irritation at LOS through building
hexes.  I second that!  LOS through a couple of clumps of trees doesn't bother
me, but LOS through a solid building is another thing entirely.  I was playing
The Factory, had an engineer squad sheltered (so I thought) behind a building
hex, when a Soviet squad popped up four hexes away directly opposite the
sheltering building and shredded my supposedly safe engineers.  How did that
happen?

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 246       Thu Oct 26, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 20:08 EDT

Jay,

        My take, for what it's worth, on the hit percentage.  I have noticed
that the more often you shoot at a target, the percentage increases.  I guess
you can refine you aim with a few practice shots...a good gunner can probably
fine tune that rangefinder with a few ranging shots.  I noticed this when
using the target finder icon.  It cycles thru targets you see, and gives a
percentage chance to hit with each target.  I have fired at a target, and
assuming I have more shots available, a quick check of the target via target
finder shows your to hit percentage going up with each shot fired.

        I haven't been paying too much attention to LOS...if I can see it to
shoot, OK, and if not, well that's the fortunes of war and a bad tactical move
on my part <BG>..  I have noticed your visibility range decreases as you move
a unit farther and farther, but you can target units that are in the greyed
out area of normal view, with probably some reduced chance to hit (?).  I
don't spend any time scouting out terrain features for ambushes..most of my
battles have been advances<g>.  A flat looking piece of ground may not be all
flat.  In a 50 X 50 yard area, there may be a small fold that can hide a tank.
That's war as far as I'm concerned.  If you're fighting in Russia, I doubt if
the Wehrmacht has highly detailed topgraphical maps of every battle site.

        I do agree that shooting thru buildings doesn't seem correct. Perhaps
you could take down the scenario name, the firing hex coordinates and target
hex coordinates and pass them on to SSI or Gary via this forum to look at.



Viking...The Danube.zip scenario is file number 10177 in this roundtable
library.


Mike


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 247       Thu Oct 26, 1995
G.SPEARS1                    at 21:52 EDT

Modem play will crown this game King. Very good game! Any game that keeps me
up past 1am on a week night......very good...:)
 MaPlayed the Japanese......interesting.....lack of armor tho makes um kinda
boring. Im sure the Marines didnt think so tho...:) Fix the LOS thing and also
Im one for damaged tanks not always exploding. also How about remanning a
Abandoned gun as long as it belongs to the same country as the crew. 'Hate to
see my crew flee.....get there courage back up but cant re-man the gun. . . .
. Great Game. .....Tango
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 248       Thu Oct 26, 1995
B-MAX [slvrhillaero]         at 22:47 EDT

 SSI- Gary..

It seems that the 88 shhot and scoot is still there to some degree. Using 1.1
I can still drive the gun somewhere, unload it, shoot several rounds, reload
it, and drive to a safe haven.  Of course  you can just NOT do this, but it
seems that unloading the gun sholud end its turn or reloading the gun end s
that pieces turn, including the hauler.

I rather like the idea of having shots by a piece degrade that units movement
points on some sort of sliding scale. Its again too easy to fire many shots ,
then race ahead at top speed.

Also like the idea of requiring a movement point to change a vehicles main
facing.

These things seem to appeal because the sim is somewhat too easy as it stands
now in single player mode.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 249       Thu Oct 26, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 23:54 EDT

Re: the LOS through buildings

I couldn't exactly recall the hex coordinates of the firing and target units
in "The Factory" scenario when my engineers got shredded by a Russian unit
firing through the building behind which the Germans were sheltered.  So I
restarted the scenario to see if it would happen again.

On the first turn, German squads were taking casualties from bullets that on-
screen were flying through [over?] buildings, but the firing units were off-
screen at the scale I was playing.

On Turn 2, however, I moved an engineer to hex 45,27 where it was pinned by
fire.  I scrolled the map over to check for targets, and to my disbelief saw
that it had a LOS to a moving Russian squad in 51,27.  I fired at it and
immediately drew reaction fire from a Maxim HMG in 52,27.  All these LOS and
shots were passing through a large intervening building between these
locations -- specifically, through building hexes 47,27 and 48,27.

What gives with these transparent factory buildings??  Again, I can see how
wrinkles of ground in otherwise flat terrain could block LOS and I can accept
that a clump or two of trees wouldn't block LOS -- but I can not see how LOS
is possible through two consecutive building hexes!

Stu
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 250       Fri Oct 27, 1995
P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog]          at 00:17 EDT

SSI, Gary,

Please do a time tradeoff between firing and moving.  If there are 6 shots and
I use all of them, I should not be able to move.  The same should apply to
units the move and load or are carried and then unload.

LOS needs work.  Intervening higher ground should always block if both units
are not at that level (they are lower).

I can play the long campaign and battles without my CD-ROM drivers loaded. If
I load them, the game always hangs.

So I am stuck with just enough of this game to still be addicted.

Thanks for all the good work but keep making this game better.

A long time ASL player is coming over on Saturday and he may buy an IBM to go
with his Mac just to play this game!

Perry

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 251       Fri Oct 27, 1995
S.MALCZAK [Ivan]             at 01:40 EDT

Mike:

  The visbility is not decreasing as your units move. I think u have the "move
radius" on. What you are seeing is your maximum movement distance left.

Tango:

  Your crews will re-crew and AT-gun..just get 'em back inot the same hex
after rallying 'em back...they'll handle the rest <G>

<Gawd...I cant type tonight...up entirely too late 'cuz of this game>....

SSI, Mr.Grigsby:

  Well, we dont expect you to agree with everything people post...and in some
cases, I hope you don't <G>.  Still, I calls 'em as I sees 'em. I've been thru
this all w/ Mr. Koger on TANKS! and w/ some of the designers of a few WWII
board/miniatures systems. I realize you'all also have marketing issues that
are usually ignored by the "peanut gallery".
 WIth that in mind, I'll keep posting and suggesting as long as you'all are
interested in taking the time to respond and take some of the suggestions.

So far...so good...Great game, hopefully on the way to being better. <G>

                                         Hopping back into T-34,
                                         Ivan
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 252       Fri Oct 27, 1995
J.RECZEK                     at 02:55 EDT

Great!! I see someone else has tried the infamous phantom building scenario..
 MR.GRISBY-- please try the "The Factory" scenario to see our point about LOS
in cities being faulty..

 It also looks like we all agree on these points:

 1) Shot/movement trade off
 2) Loading Unloading units should end turn (or take time so it isnt so easy)

 Also, I have to report another problem (but no biggie).
 I was playing the Market Garden campaign, BARELY won the first battle as
Brits, 715-682.. now THATS close.. Was the best battle I ever fought.. Sat
there swearing as my tanks were getting ripped to shreds by hidden infantry..
(they seemed everywhere!) And then there was that untakeable 75mmAT, that
eventually fell after much blood shed, but thats another story.
 The Problem is that in the second scenario, several things occurred:

 a) Some Germans started on my side of the river!?!?
 (maybe this is right, but it surprised the hell out of me!)

 b) Why couldnt I entrench my units?! I had a DELAY mission..

 c)After winning this battle, the game went on to say that I had lost the
campaign, and failed to achieve a breakthrough... How did i lose the campaign
if I went 2 for 2.. ??? What breakthrough ? (I assume they meant the overall
campaign goal was that..)

 d) Why can the computer sometimes see some units that it never should have..
ones that havent moved or fired.. ?

 Fantastic game !!

 Does anyone ever play the Japenese??

 ---Jake


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 253       Fri Oct 27, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 05:35 EDT

I am still unable to continue past the first scenario in the France Campaign.
I finish that game and go to the fix screen, but after I repair my units I am
dumped back to the main screen and get no chance to continue the campaign.

I am using the updated version and have saved the game on the last turn before
the scenario ends. I get a decisive victory (1200 to 80 or so) so there should
be other scernarios, shouldn't there?

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 254       Fri Oct 27, 1995
L.SHARP [SABRE]              at 06:21 EDT

SSI Matt,

Our Turn is on the way.  Wolfgang and I are teaming up on ya.  Battle
generator did an interesting scenario in a city.  We took the Russians,
October 44.  If you don't like this setup let me know.

Do you want to post results here each turn or take it to email?

Col. Sabresky
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 255       Fri Oct 27, 1995
J.COX16                      at 07:13 EDT

I don't think you really need to lose shots for moving because your hit chance
is lowered so much that you are effectively losing shots unless you have a
very experienced crew.  I do wish, however, that you could keep the AI from
using tanks in the Pacific.  It really bugs me to play the Japanese and have
to face 20+ British tanks in 1942.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 256       Fri Oct 27, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 07:50 EDT

Ivan,

 I wasn't trying to suggest that the Challenger example was a norm, but merely
that the 88 does not have a "laser range finder" just very good optics for a
WWII weapon.  At least we both agree that an 88 would be rather ineffective
against modern armor.

 There is a kind of "battlefield integrity" rule in the game that compares
losses to morale and causes a low morale force to fall apart when its taken
too many casualities.  Being even in sight of those burning tanks didn't help
either.

 Here are two suggestions the might help your overall play:

 1) Lead attacks with infantry not armor.  Yes it's not historical, but the
game works much better that way.  The infantry will reveal enemy units and
minefields that  cause tanks such problems.

 2) If playing against the German, always purchase some form of indirect fire
artillery to deal with the 88s.  As the Soviet, I particularly like the 120mm
mortar.  It has great range, good accuracy and a decent amount of ammo for a
Soviet weapon.

 Jim Wirth
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 257       Fri Oct 27, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 11:06 EDT

Ivan...

        You're right <g>.  Why didn't I think of that <duh..>!  IT IS the move
radius decreasing, not LOS.  Everything but where you can movelooks dark, so
"I" think that's only whats in LOS.  Will turn off move radius and see of the
game looks then.


SSI Matt,

        I noticed that the turn number update feature works in the second save
slot below the email game slots.  Just the first save slot after the email
slots doesn't appear to put a suggested file name with the updated turn
number.


For all...

        I've gotten to where I save prior to getting the next scenario so I
can select my new support units wisely.  For example, France 1940, Next
mission is a river assault, but I'm not sure whether to buy barges or not. I
noticed my last river assault suggested I get barges, but this one said
nothing.  So...I bought barges, only to find two intact bridges across the
river.  Place units and exit setup.  Then...exit game back to selection menu
and reload from save prior to buying barges.  Repick support forces w/o
barges.  Maybe you get a warning everytime hinting that you should buy barges
if the bridges are down, but haven't played enough river crossings to confirm
this, so a save prior to buying your next batch of support forces is handy.



Mike



 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 258       Fri Oct 27, 1995
M.DWYER1 [Jabo]              at 18:32 EDT

Matt,

Since your still keeping the wish list I have another request (or two).

I would like to be able to fire only the secondary guns of my tank.  The
problem is if you are trying to suppress some nearby infantry I should be able
to fire the bow machinegun only.  I want to save my main gun rounds for any
enemy tanks lurking about that I have not spotted yet.

I also noticed the data for infantry weapons in the patch files (thanks!). The
data I have is from (I think) The Encylopedia of German Tanks.  It lists the
MG34 and 42 as being able to penetrate 8mm of armour at 100 meters. That
should be enought to penetrate the side of a US M-3.  I'm only mentioning this
since Wolfgang is working on Villers-Bocage and Wittmann destroyed a troop of
British M-3 using his Tigers MG-34s only.  You give the US M-2 .50 cal and the
Soviet 12.7mm penetrations of 3.  How about a 1 for all other MG's.  That will
keep those pesky half-tracks off of most infantry and force them to fight
dismounted (which is what they did).

Thanks again to all involved for a GREAT game.

Mike.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 259       Fri Oct 27, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 19:23 EDT

Jim Wirth,

Actually, there are numerous examples in WWII of leading attacks with
infantry, not armor.  I think we all get too caught up in the romance and
image of the Blitzkrieg.  While German military thinking was still moot on the
doctrinal question as to whether tanks or infantry should take the lead, after
1941 on the Eastern Front both sides routinely used pre-attack infiltration
tactics.

A more familiar example of choosing to lead with infantry is Manteuffel's plan
for the 5th Panzer Army in the Ardennes Offensive.  Unlike Dietrich, who
proposed to make the initial breakthrough with two tank divisions, Manteuffel
called for pre-dawn infantry infiltration, then the use of assault detachments
to clear space for his tanks, which he planned to unleash in the early
afternoon of the first day.

So there are certainly historical grounds for leading attacks in Steel
Panthers with infantry!

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 260       Fri Oct 27, 1995
B.TONEY2 [TopCat]            at 20:25 EDT

Stu, and other historians of WWII German tank doctrine-

     I'm having a little difficulty understanding where the German/Armor
 assault guns (Stug's) fit in to the scheme of things.  How were they
 used by German commanders?   Is there an American equivalent?

                                Thanks,
                                        TopCat


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 261       Fri Oct 27, 1995
S.MALCZAK [Ivan]             at 20:26 EDT

Stu/Jim Wirth:

   I agree w/ both of you on the AFV's vs. Infantry leading an assault. But
the point should be that the game is built to handle either and  the decision
is made based on tactical situation, not "whether it works better in the
game". A minor but inmportant difference.

SSI/Mr. Grigsby/All who want to jump in again <G>

   A few more observations/suggestions:

  1>The extra points for motorized/mech formations still does not work right
in 1.1. It will display the increased points for the infantry only until you
select  a different type and then reverts to "foot" point costs. (ie. GE
infantry rifle squad in 7/44 costs 21 points. click to SMG squad and its 12.
Click back to Rigfle squad and it displays 9 points)

  2> What is the ratio of attacker to defender points supposed to be in Delay/
assault scenarios?
 I selected 248 points of Germans to defend and it gave me 608 points of US to
attack in an assault scen. I thought it was supposed to be 2:1. Any clues?

  3> Earlier, I mentioned lowering number of shots units get and someone
posted that you were supposed to "hold" shots for OP fire. This makes little
sense in many situations. When I fire all the shots myself, Im guaranteed they
are going at the right targets, not my 76mm AT guns shooting infantry when a
PZ-IVH is closing in. Also, OP fire seems scattered and therfore doesnt really
benefit from "aquiring the target" mods. Lastly, sometimes, Units dont OP fire
at all even when enemies  are overunning outlying positions.(no I havent
reduced their ranges <G>)

   4>Can Arty clear mines? If not, will that be a feature later on. Also, any
chance of "counterbattery" ala original Squad Leader? Maybe set them to CB
fire and  there is a chance enemy Arty is disrupted/KO'ed.


   5> And lastly today <g>...Suggestion #2463....Perhaps make Recce units have
a better ability to spot?


        Thanxs for the great support so far!!

                                         Returning to reality for a while,
                                         Ivan
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 262       Fri Oct 27, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 21:41 EDT

John Lansford,     The French campaign had 4-5 scenarios, if I remember right.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 263       Fri Oct 27, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 23:36 EDT

     If while changing the HQ that units belong to, you eliminate a HQ
entirely (low Rally, etc.), this HQ still gets promoted, even without units.
However you can never use it again as there are no units to click onto. This
also screws up the 'Go to next HQ' command as it still follows the original
setup.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 264       Sat Oct 28, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 13:03 EDT

TopCat,

Please don't consider me an "expert" on German WWII tank doctrine -- I've just
read a number of books!

From my understanding, the Germans devised the Stug for two primary reasons.
First, while the Panzers were rampaging in the enemy's rear area after the
Blitzkrieg breakthrough, the infantry still often found themselves required to
dig the enemy out of entrenched, fortified positions -- and had no tank
support to do so.  So the Germans placed a Gun on the readily available PzIII
chassis, dispensed with the turret considered unnecessary in this role, et
voila -- the infantry had the close support gun that they needed. Second,
because the Stugs dispensed with the turret, these AFVs were less costly and
quicker to produce.  And as the Germans faced those waves of T- 34s and
assumed a more defensive posture in the war, assault gun production was
increased -- the Stug took on a more anti-tank role from defensive ambush
positions.  Kind of more bang for the buck, but it sure didn't help the Stug
crew that had a T-34 creeping up on it from the flank or rear!

The Americans had no exact equivalent to the assault gun in either fact or
doctrine.  However, the Americans in the field were quick to see the need for
such close support and would improvise with self-propelled artillery in that
role -- especially with the M8 Howitzer Motor Carriage and the M7 HMC [the
latter known popularly as "The Priest" because of the pulpit-like .50 cal AAMG
mount.

Anybody else here to add to this?

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 265       Sat Oct 28, 1995
MO.MORGAN                    at 13:41 EDT

Ivan,

Great points in your message 261.  I think Arty should have some capability to
clear mines and I also wish for counterbattery option (and the option to fire
just my coax or cupola machinegun and save my main gun rounds.

I don't agree that tank/SPA shots should be limited if you are moving--that is
a paradigm we might have accepted from boardgame rules writers.  The accuracy
could be really poor if you are moving but it is physically possible to fire
just as many times when you are moving as you are when stationary.

The capability to roll up with a Spw7, dismount an 88, fire, mount back up,
and drive off is a bit much but you do what you have to do.  The game probably
needs the carriers or guns to burn some "action points" mounting or
dismounting to make things work realistically (fewer shots).  Probably
shouldn't be able to mount and dismount a field piece from a prime mover in
one gameturn.

I think unbuttoned tanks (even moving) should be able to spot infantry
(snipers excepted) in open terrain (especially desert)--that's why the TC has
his head out of the turret.  In woods or buildings I agree that you'd need
infantry out there snooping it to find other infantry.  If infantry
successfully attacks an unbuttoned tank (we should have a button which enables
us to buttonup the tank), it should have some chance of killing the TC--the
only two results I ever see are tank destroyed or some suppression result
(buttoning up).  Crewmen are never killed unless the tank is destroyed or they
bail and are shot outside.

I was also surprised to see I had a river crossing in the France scenario and
I bought barges and carriers after the previous one with blown bridges. When I
saw the bridges were OK, I played with what I had--and kept my barges back (I
considered using them to ferry across some infantry between the two bridges).
I thought the scenario might have the bridges wired for demolition (that would
be a cool animated multimedia sequence on the map!)  A good commander would
have those barges anyway in the event the bridges did get blown.

Wolfgang,

Thanks for the Danube scenario file number.  I'll download it ASAP.

Mo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 266       Sat Oct 28, 1995
DONDO                        at 16:10 EDT

I have had no problems remanning abandoned guns, but you have to do it with
the original crew after you get them rallied.

Are you suggesting that *anyone* be permitted to take over tanks/guns? Seems
to me that grunts might not have the training to operate them...

==Dondo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 267       Sat Oct 28, 1995
J.RECZEK                     at 16:19 EDT

Why do my units not entrench on a Delay scenario??
 I hit the entrench button on deployment..

 thx

 Jake

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 268       Sat Oct 28, 1995
S.MALCZAK [Ivan]             at 16:50 EDT

Jake:

  Your units only entrench if the scenario is an "assault".

All:

   Does it seem to anyone else that buildings and woods are too
fragile/vulnerable?? It seems all to often my troops end up in a "burning" hex
and are useless. Also, buildings seem to collapse just a bit too often. Neat
effects, a little overdone. I tend to have better luck just digging in in the
open. Doesnt really even seem  to affect spotting. The grunts stay hidden
until they fire in any case.


                                           Ivan
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 269       Sat Oct 28, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 17:12 EDT

LONG POST WARNING (why do people give these warnings ? Do they work?)

Jabo,

Yes, I am working on it, albeit slowly - I want it to be as historically
accurate as possible and am having trouble diggin up some of the more
pertinent info. If you happen to have a copy of Tiger Ace, or any other
reference which details this action, please e-mail me. I am currently working
on one which I _do_ have plenty of info on, 11th Pz Div. action at
Manutchskaya, 25 Jan 43.

Gary,

Haven't seen you on lately - this can only mean one thing - vacation <g> - no,
actually I am confident that you are hard at work utilizing your coding genius
and mastery to develop what promises to be the best thing since sliced bread -
Modem Steel Panthers !! Seriously, Gary you should try to sell a piece of the
action to MCI or Sprint - they stand to reap some major buckage once the modem
patch is available <g>.

Regarding what I still consider to be the worst glitch - LOS - I am happy with
the "tree LOS". Seems that 2 tree hexes, sometimes 3, WILL block LOS. What is
not kosher, is the Kelly's Heroes "shoot through a building" hex. I have read
commentary here to the effect that the kind of rubber-band LOS rules a la ASL
are themselves unrealstic, and i tend to agree (it DID make plotting moves
easier - in my ASL days, for a change, we decided that no player could pre-
check LOS before moving, which is sort of where SP is) BUT, when you position
a unit behind a building, you should be pretty damn sure that its not going to
be spotted THRU that bldg. Enough said on this issue...


Stu,

Good point about infiltration - the Germans wrote the book on this with
 their Stosstruppen tactics of WWI, and further refined it in the hinterlands
 of Russia under the 1922 Von Seekt agreement. Then the the Soviets learned
these tactics from the Germans, and  became past masters of infiltration.
 What they would typically do would be to line up the artillery hub-to-hub,
150-300 tubes per every half mile of front. They would begin an intense
bombardment 2 hrs or so before the assualt, then let up on approximately a 100
yard section. The bombardment would continue up and down the front, giving the
impression that the preliminary shelling was in full swing. The infantry would
then exploit and infiltrate thru this section, often achieveing impressive
results. Again, this tactic harks back to German Stosstruppen techniques first
employed at Riga and at Caporetto over 20 years ago.


Now, for a scenario teaser, here is Von Mellenthin's (based on General Balck's
report) account of the action at Manutchskaya -

"During January Fourth Panzer Army was driven from its positions on the
 banks of the Sal and back to the line of the River Manich which runs
 Southeast from Rostov. The Russians swept down the river as far as its
 point of junction with the Don, barely 20 miles from Rostov. Not only that,
 they forced a crossing of the Manich at Manutchskaya, and occupied the
 village, which lies on the western bank of the river. It was vital to
 restore the situation, and on 22 January Manstein brought the 11th Pz
 Div. across to the South bank of the Don to support the counterattack of
 the 4th Pz Army.....

The locality was strongly fortified and numerous tanks had been dug in
 between the houses to serve as bunkers; they were difficult to discover
 and to counter. The first attack had failed under their unnopposed fire,
 although our losses were light as the troops had developd a very fine
 sense of danger, and pulled back in time.

For the second attack it was important to lure the Russian tanks -most
 of them entrenched in the Southern part of the village - from their lair.
 To achieve this, the fire of the entire artillery was concentrated on the
 Northeast sector of the village, and a feint attack was mounted at this
 point by armored cars and half-tracks under cover of a smoke screen.
 Then suddenly the fire of the divisional artillery was directed on the
 Southern part of the village and concentrated in a single mighty blow
 on the point where we intended to break in; the rate of fire was
 increased to maximum intensity. Only one battery continued to support
 the feint attack with smokeshells..

While the shells were still falling, the tanks of Pz Reg. 15 charged
 the village and rolled up the defenses from South to North. The Russian
 tanks which had moved to the Northern part of the village were attacked
 from the rear and destroyed by our panzers after a fierce struggle. The
 Russian infantry took to their heels and fled across the Manich without
 destroying the bridge; Motorcycle Battallion 61 was sent to intercept them
 while the tank battle was still raging in the village.

At first, the divisional staff conducted the battle from a hill South of
 Manutchskaya, but later joined the leading tanks. German losses were one
 killed and 14 wounded; on the Russian side 20 tanks were knocked out and
 500-600 killed or wounded. The battle showed in the clearest way how an
 action can be conducted with a minimum of losses, provided the attacking
 forces are well coordinated, and can turn the enemies disposition to their
 own advantage....This well planned attack by elements of the 11th Pz Div.
 was of decisive importance in smashing the Russian offensive against
 Rostov from the South."
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Maj. Gen. F.W. Von Mellenthin, Panzer Battles

Coming soon to a download library near you !

Wolfgang


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 270       Sat Oct 28, 1995
J.RECZEK                     at 18:12 EDT

SSI-SUPPORT..

 ARRRGGGHHHHH!!!

 It did it AGAIN! It ends my mission after turn 5.. the mission before this
ended on turn 10...

 Heres the situation..
 Long campaign mission 3.. I am playing the Brits against the Italians, and I
nailed 1/4 of their tanks w/o losses.. then boom.. scenario ends.. they havent
even gotten to the target area yet! And the other 3/4 of their tanks are still
fully functional and approaching fast.. What gives??

 I believe I have the saved game that I can upload for you to check out if you
want (if its really a bug or not)..

 PLEASE fix this bug.. (if it is one).

 thx
 Jake

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 271       Sat Oct 28, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 19:47 EDT

Mo,

        I think some of your crew does get wounded when tanks are hit.  I've
noticed one of my PzIIIE tanks drop to a one shot per turn dilemma.  I
wondered why an otherwise healthy tank was doing this.  It had plenty of ammo,
with over 40 AP and 30+ HE rounds.  I went to the roster icon (the clipboard)
in the orders menu and the unit was listed as having 5 points of damage.  Not
sure exactly what was hit, crew or some mechanism, but movement was unaffected
and the tank looked OK...just couldn't fire more than one shot a turn.



Mike

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 272       Sat Oct 28, 1995
B.TONEY2 [TopCat]            at 20:55 EDT

Stu,

        Well, thanks for reading those books and sharing your findings
 with us.  I hadn't realized that the Stug's had fixed turrets.  Necessity
 is the mother of invention <G>...  They can certainly deliver a tank killing
blow to my Shermans.  In a defensive position, I've found them to be
 formiddable.

        By looking at the sum total of German equipment available, it sure
seems that they developed *many* more situation-specific weapons.  Perhaps
this reflects their long years of ramping-up their military hardware
production.

        Oh, another question.  When a tank's main gun is called a 75L24,
 what do the numbers and letters mean.

        Thanks again,
                        TopCat.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 273       Sat Oct 28, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 22:58 EDT

Wolfgang,

I sure appreciate the fact that you are creating scenarios for all to share,
but aren't the last two actions you are lining up for scenarios -- Wittman's
Glory and the Manychskaya battle -- both too lopsided historically to be much
fun? I dunno, I wish you would go back to topics with a little more historical
balance.  Of course, I could always get off my lazy rear and design my own! ;)

Keep up the work, however!

TopCat,

The Stugs didn't have fixed turrets; they had NO turrets!  And through this
wonderful game you have discovered one of the great uses that the Germans
found for these assault guns:  due to the low, turretless profiles, they were
harder to spot and thus easier to deploy for ambushes.

In the case of guns, the first number refers to the weapon's caliber, as
expressed in millimeters.  So the 75L24 has a 75mm caliber.  I'm not sure what
the "L" stands for, but I believe it and the number following it refers to a
particular generation of that gun's production.  Someone else may be able to
tell you more correctly or specifically what they mean ...

Stu
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 274       Sat Oct 28, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 22:59 EDT

Topcat,
        The numbers and letters for a tank's main gun is shorthand for the
size (first #'s before the letter in millimeters), the L stands for Length,
and the numbers after the L are the length in calibres.

Therefore, a 75L24 gun is a 75mm cannon with a length of 75mm X 24
millimeters.

The Germans developed assault guns because they were cheaper and quicker to
build than tanks and were almost as useful on defense as tanks were. Assault
guns were also capable of carrying heavier armor than tanks of the same year.

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 275       Sat Oct 28, 1995
M.DWYER1 [Jabo]              at 23:05 EDT

TopCat,

The L in the gun designations is the length of the barrel as a ratio of the
diameter of the bore.  The U.S. uses the length of the bore only, the Germans
use the muzzle to the rear to the breech.  The two numbers will be slightly
off but give you an idea of the barrel length.  For example the U.S. M3 gun
from the Sherman is 37.5 in US or 40.1 in German calculations.

So the German 75L43 is only a little bigger than the US 75 which in German
designation would be an L40.  Unfortunatly it is much more complicated.  The
shell for the German round is much larger, something that does not show up in
most of the literature.  The German round also has a small explosive charge in
it.  The US did not adopte an APHE until late in the war.

The two most important numbers for penitration are the weight of the round and
it's volocity.  The US M72 round weighs 13.9 lbs and has a muzzle volocity of
2,030 fps.  The German Pzgr 39 is 14.9 lbs and 2405 fps the Germans also made
a Pzgr 40 at 9lbs and 2990 fps.  The second  round is what gives them the real
advantage.  The Germans made the Pzgr 40 round for every gun from 37mm up. The
US never field the hyper round for the 75mm.  There was a very good one for
the 76mm and 3 inch guns and for the 90mm.

The German 75L43 and L48 fire the same round, the differences are very minor
in the guns themselves.  The PAK 40 AT gun is a 75L46 and the case does not
taper as the 75L48 does.  For the US the 3 inch shell is straight and the 76mm
is a tapered case but both are identical balisticly.

Since all of the is data comes not only form different sources but different
countries and possibly at different times "Your milage may vary".

Hope that helps, sorry if it was too long.  Jabo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 276       Sat Oct 28, 1995
P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog]          at 23:10 EDT

Wolfgang,

Panzers in Normandy from After the Battle press has a ton on Villers-Bocage
and Herr Wittman.  However this is an expensive book.

Let me know your snail address and I will try to photocopy the stuff.

Perry
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 277       Sun Oct 29, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 07:55 EST

Jabo,

 Machine guns of less than 12.7mm weren't given a penetration rating for a
very simple reason - there are just way too many of them out there.  Any
weapon with a penetration rating is capable of getting an immobilization hit.
With so many machine guns firing so often, every vehicle on the map would soon
be immobilized.  Machine gun penetration  is a factor  game designers refer to
as "outside the game parameters" (you just can't simulate it properly with the
STEEL PANTHERS game system).

 Stu,

 When I said it wasn't historical to lead with infantry, I was referring to
the actual mechanics of tank-infantry co-operation at the tactical level of
STEEL PANTHERS. Your examples of the infantry going in first are more of an
operational nature.  If the tanks were actually available, they would almost
always advance just in front of the infantry.  The reason was twofold:  first,
the mere presence of the tanks in front "inspired" the infantry to advance,
and second, the tanks could actually provide some cover for the infantry from
enemy fire (a fact not simulated in SP).  Since tanks neither inspire nor
protect in SP, there's nothing too lose in leading with infantry, something
your historical counterpart would have preferred not to do.

 Jim Wirth
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 278       Sun Oct 29, 1995
V.NEWELL [VENOM]             at 10:19 EST

        I am having a problem with the Americans vers Germans.  Most tank
incounters with enemy infantry end up with a destroyed tank.  I am not even
going to mention my Shermans against Panthers.  Any advice?

                        VENOM.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 279       Sun Oct 29, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 10:53 EST

John, Jabo --

Thanks for the assist on the "L" portion of TopCat's question about the
meaning of 75L!


Jim Wirth --

Of course, the line between operations and tactics is not a clean one.  In
addition, I'm sure historicals example can be cited for virtually any possible
combination of tank/infantry employment.  To respond to your argument that
tanks inspire and protect the infantry and thus would lead, I can think
particularly of our bocage fighting, where cooperation between tanks and
infantry was so poor.  American tanks there did very little to inspire the
infantry to advance, while the "cover" they provided was offset by the
attention they drew from the German defenders!  Infantry officers repeatedly
complained that the tanks would not advance, or would withdraw at the initial
contact, while tank officers complained that infantry would not support or
protect their tanks.  I'm sure the truth lies somewhere between the two, or
that both sides were correct -- neither tanks nor infantry were too eager to
poke their heads into German ambushes.

Also, I think Steel Panthers does a very good job of teaching a historic
lesson.  WWII is full of examples of commanders choosing to lead with tanks,
and what frequently happened to those tanks that led -- they got bushwhacked
and brewed up.  Tank attacks were typically high risk/high gain operations,
but I can't think of too many cases where they were not costly if the enemy
had significant or even decent anti-tank capabilities.  Witness Goodwood. And
it was not just in Normandy. I just finished re-reading William Manchester's
_Goodbye, Darkness_, a tremendous personal account and history of the Pacific
War.  What sticks in mind right now is his telling of what happened to six
tanks sent to Sugar Loaf Hill on Okinawa to support the infantry in the final
stage of the fighting for that terrain -- they were all knocked out very
quickly.  I seriously doubt their fate would have been any different if those
tanks had LED that attack.  And I know my historical counterpart in that
action knew it was suicide to lead with tanks there.

It all depends on the situation -- in the desert, where the near total lack of
cover gave armor a serious advantage over infantry, tanks could and did lead
attacks.  But in close terrain like cities, bocage and Pacific jungles, tanks
did not survive very long if they were out in front.

Sorry to ramble ...

Stu
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 280       Sun Oct 29, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 11:12 EST

VENOM,

Don't feel too bad.  Historically, an American tank that got within good range
of a Panzerfaust was most often a dead tank.  Solution?  Don't get too close
to a good order German squad, if you can avoid it some other way.

Stu
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 281       Sun Oct 29, 1995
J.COBB7 [bismarck]           at 11:23 EST

Jim.

Don't forget the effect of "Panzerschreck" upon the enemy as they see the
tanks. I know that infantry units got steadier as the war went on but I find
it hard to believe that even the most grizzled veterans didn't get a queasy
when they saw tanks coming.

Jim Cobb
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 282       Sun Oct 29, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 14:06 EST

     I can't get off-map arty to fire a second time, at the same hex, with
zero delay, no matter what I try. Anybody know the secret?
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 283       Sun Oct 29, 1995
D.SICKLER [sickman]          at 14:52 EST

Venom,

Have you tried carrying infantry on your tanks? It adds alot to the
survivability of my T-34s when I happen upon German infantry.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 284       Sun Oct 29, 1995
S.DEMONTE1                   at 15:36 EST

Guys,

 I have had a problem when starting the long campaign as the japanese on the
date of 1941 December. 9 out of 10 times the first mission begins as an amphib
mission which is fine, but all my units appear as pillboxes. The pillboxes
appear to be vehicles because I can unload my  tanks and men  from them.

 Second question (as the japanese Dec. 1941), on ampib missions if your
starting positions are only over  water, where I assume it should be, what
type of "barge carriers" or "ampib craft" do you need to buy? I don't see
anything available to purchase and if nothing is purchased and you men start
over the water, they begin to die it seems because leaders begin replacing
other leaders.  Thanks, I can provide a save game

 Great game,
 Scott
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 285       Sun Oct 29, 1995
ARMY.TIMES [G.WILLIS]        at 16:16 EST

I've found that "leadig with tanks" does work, provided:
 a.) You have proper artillery/air barrage to suppress or disrupt the hidden
infantry ahead.
 b) Some infantry rides the tanks, while others are behind/adjacent to the
tanks on foot.
 c.)As you advance,  fire blindly into woods or building hexsides that will be
potential ambush sites, to keep the enemy grunts' heads down. If you do all
this right, it seems there's a greater chance their close assaults will be
abandoned or fail.

 The only drawback (as in real life) is that your advance will be slower this
way and your armor can't race ahead on its own.
 -- Grant
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 286       Sun Oct 29, 1995
DONDO                        at 17:43 EST

Scott:  On those invasion missions, just make your starting position over
water, and you automatically get transports to take them to the coast.  This
is different than the missions that advise you to buy barges because of amphib
operations.

Gary:  I presume you are clicking on the unit in the bombardment window? That
should automatically move you to the hex that was bombarded previously. Then
click on the HE/Smoke icon.  BTW, if you don't use it for anything else for a
couple of turns, you can still do this.  It does not take continuous turn to
turn bombardment, just no other use of the weapon.

Two other possible answers:  check the "eye" icon to make sure you have ammo.
Also, if you did smoke before, you cannot swith to HE and vice versa. Finally,
if you are clicking on the map window to locate the hex, and then click on the
type of ammo, this cancels out the possibility of repeat
 bombardment.

  Despite the problems, I am still playing it:).  I have found that the
randomly generated assault scenarios are pretty challenging.  Computer does
not defend too badly, just can't attack worth beans.

I have learn to live with LOS.  I guess I just wish it didn't go through
buildings, and was a little tougher through trees.

==Dondo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 287       Sun Oct 29, 1995
J.RECZEK                     at 19:11 EST

Okay.. 2 bugs to report..

 1)  If you are in the encylopedia for a while, and move up and down and check
out many units, the game will crash and exit (crashed me after about 1 min of
lookin at stuff)

 2)  On a tank with no HE rounds (or atleast on the Matilda II and A13), they
WILL NOT fire their MGs at infantry over a range of 3.. I have to sit there
and keep hittin fire, until (eventually) it fires..
 At the bottom of the screen, it says A13 firing at XXX, then it centers the
screen on the A13, then on the enemy infantry, and nothing.. No shots taken
off, and no gunfire coming out of my tank.. It has a range of 10 on the MGs.
 WHAT ON EARTH?

 If you want me to send you the savegame file, ill be happy to..

 Jake
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 288       Sun Oct 29, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 19:27 EST

Stu,

What I plan to do to create a semblance of balance is to devalue the victory
hexes, thus putting a premium on destroyed enemy units vs. preserved
friendlies. Thus, in order to achieve a major victory, you would have to
achieve something on the level of the historical outcome. This should give
_most_ people at least a little challenge, I hope <g>.

I also plan on doing a partisan attack on German supply depot and/or columns.
The partisan's will basically be edited rifle sections, modified by giving
them a smaller amount of ammo, lower experience, no radios, etc. They will
have a higher movement rating, however. The scenario will also take place at
night (lower visibility). If anyone has any suggestions as to how I might
further develop a partisan scenario, please make them.

I'd really like to do some night scenarios - sure wish the unit mix allowed
for starshells. Now that would be COOL !

Wolfgang
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 289       Sun Oct 29, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 19:48 EST

Dondo,    Thanks for the answer but the problem seems to be that the off-map
arty doesn't always work. Sometimes the HE icon stays depressed after a
mission and clicking on it has no effect. I've also noticed that some on-map
arty with one (*) reguires a Large truck for transport. Naturally I didn't
find this out until I tried to transport the gun.

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 290       Sun Oct 29, 1995
S.RAYNOR [STEVER.]           at 20:16 EST

Wolfgang,

Good point about the game being geared toward tanks. (i.e. the title STEEL
PANTHERS)

BUT...

I recall in a campaign where I commanded the Germans, I encountered Brits in
the desert.  They were tank heavy. (man were they tank heavy!--they had no
infantry support to speak of, only artillery)

It was a slugfest.  Losses on both sides were getting critical.  However, as
the situation was getting desperate, I brought out my infantry to close
assault the Brit tanks closing in on my position.  After several turns of
heavy fighting my infantry drove back the tank hordes and I pulled off a
decisive victory.

COMBINED arms IS the key!

To all you so call grognards <sp?>, if you want history as it's written go to
a library otherwise quit your whining and enjoy this AWESOME *game*! ( it is a
game, right?)---hardware/software bugs are another issue, however.....

Steve








 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 291       Sun Oct 29, 1995
C.DAVIS [charles]            at 21:15 EST

Why cant tanks back up?  with the sighting routines in SP making it that
moving infantry is invisible to tanks until they are run over, occasionally it
makes good sense for a tank to bak up rather then to expose its flanks.

chuck
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 292       Sun Oct 29, 1995
J.COX16                      at 23:44 EST

Scott is correct about there being a bug in the Japanese long campaign. After
reading his post I started several campaigns as the Japanese on Dec7,41 and on
eight out of 10 tries I got a landing mission where the Japanese wherein
pillboxes instead of landing craft and the entire force drowned on the first
turn.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 293       Mon Oct 30, 1995
D.SICKLER [sickman]          at 00:29 EST

        I've run into an interesting situation during the Warsaw campaign in
which the German crews who have abondoned their weapons are firing at me with
57L73 ATGs. Imagine my surprise when running down a lone soldier fleeing along
the road, having him turn around and fire one of those puppies point-blank in
my face. I click on him and sure enough, the "crew" is armed with both a 57mm
and rifles. Hmmm...
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 294       Mon Oct 30, 1995
L.SHARP [SABRE]              at 05:07 EST

Well,  so far I'm having a good time.  LOS has worked pretty decently. Managed
to take out one of Wolfgang's Stug's and he never saw what hit him. This was
in a woods hex.  Just love those stealthy Russians.  Just wonder how long I
can keep this up.  He's got Tigers chasing me all over the map.
 1943 meeting engagement.  I really don't want introduced.

Col. Sabresky
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 295       Mon Oct 30, 1995
J.EVANS10 [JohnnyREB]        at 18:22 EST

I noticed something today playing with the patch.  I started a long campaign
game as the Japanese starting in Aug '39. I selected my units as normal. What
is weird, is I was able to select the Type 97 CHI-Ha Medium tank. According to
the weapons encyclopidea (sic) it was not available until 1942. There maybe
more that I didn't catch. Maybe this is part of the ongoing bug with the long
campaign.

Any ideas why this is? It doesn't bother me at all.

I did have one problem with the patch though. After I installed it and tried
to play, none of the pictures of the pictures of the weapons would show up
while I was buying my units. I had to reinstall the game before they would
show up again. I wonder why.

REB

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 296       Mon Oct 30, 1995
R.WINSLOW4 [Cho]             at 19:02 EST

I -am- interested in the meaning of the gun nomenclature.  Caliber is one of
those terms that ends up with different meanings in different contexts.  If we
are discussing small arms and the English system of measurement, .45 caliber
means .45 inch round diameter.  And of course, the well known .22, .32, .357,
.38 and .44 calibers.  A friend of mine had a superb .41 caliber Ruger
revolver made in the sixties.  Within these diameters are many variations in
length of projectile and weight of charge, not to mention the barrel lengths
of the guns and the differences in configuration of the lands and grooves in
the barrels.

 In big guns, however, as Jabo has pointed out, caliber has a different
meaning.  If I'm not mistaken,
 the big naval guns conform to the same system that he describes, so that a 14
inch, 45 caliber gun has a chamber which accomodates a 14 inch diameter
projectile and has a barrel which is 14X45 inches, 630 inches, or 52.5 feet
long!  Don't ask me from where the measurement is taken.  I happened to catch
something on The History Channel this past week about the naval disarmament
treaties that followed WW1, and they had footage of the guns being hoisted out
of one U.S. battleship that was being broken up.  Out of the turret, they
were, indeed, of a length in the fifty foot vicinity.  Getting a little back
on topic, a 75L38 gun would be about 9 and a half feet long -- estimating 3
inches for 75mm.

 And I made some comment on this board about minutiae.  I am hoisted by my own
petard.


 Cho
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 297       Mon Oct 30, 1995
M.DWYER1 [Jabo]              at 19:07 EST

Someone posted a while ago about having trouble as the U.S. against the
Germans.  I was having the same problem both as the U.S. and Soviets against
the Germans.  I started another long campaign as the Soviets and got a
Decisive in the first battle by using the following strategies.

1) Since the AI is tank heavy you must be tank heavy too.  I picked 3 plt of T-
34s, 1 of KVs and an Engineering Plt.  The engineers have good AT attacks with
the sachal charges.

2)  For support units I picked 3 more T-34 Plts and a section of KV-IIs. Boy
do the KV-IIs kick ass.  I was getting hits at fairly long ranges with
estimations of 3-8% a high number of times.  Those pesky Spw-250 just do not
hold up well againest a 152mm.
 Notice I picked NO artillery,  I have found it is only of limited value
agains armor.  They are great for smoke but cost too much overall.

3)  I ignored the victory hexes.  They are only important at the end.  If you
have already defeated your enemy you can recover most of them.  Go for the
defeat of your enemies forces _IN DETAIL_.

4)  I positioned ALL of my forces on one flank and move forward quickly into
contact.  I then enveloped the flank German unit and destroyed it.  I had
about 3:1 in tanks.  The object is to use the terrain to isolate part of the
force and crush it quickly before others can arrive.  Try to stay behind woods
and hills and save some of your shots for oppertunity fire.  If your enemy is
comming over a hill with you waiting YOU get the first shot.  If you out
number him locally 3:1 he will not last long. Then roll up the center and
destry it.

5) Never send a few tanks (say 3) to do a little job.  If your crews are
inferior you MUST have superior numbers.  Send 10-12. This was my biggerst
mistake.  I sent 3 T-34s to recapture an objective that I had lost.  They were
attacked by 2-3 Spws, 2 Pz II and 3 Pz Is *** yes Pz Is *** they shot up my T-
34s so much that they all fled. None were damaged the just ran. I was only
able to capture the objective after a major reshuffle of units.

6) Pick your fights carfully and lead with the support units.  The name of the
game in the long campaigns is SURVIVAL!!!  It's better to get away with you
units intact that to win.

Good Luck, now get back to the front before Stalin has you shot.  Jabo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 298       Mon Oct 30, 1995
J.RECZEK                     at 20:37 EST

Am I missing something??

 In my long campaign, I am only getting to buy about 40 something points of
support units, and when you're in the desert and need lots of tanks, 40 points
aint gonna buy you jack..

 How does one get more points in a scenario??  (long campaign I mean!!)
 Are the scenarios really that unbalanced ? (my 10 tanks versus the german 25
tanks.. .. retreat... hehe)
 The computer also managed to buy 4 airstrikes on TOP of the 25 some tanks..
How many points did this guy have!?!?
 And why did i only get 40 with which to delay!!

 Jake

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 299       Mon Oct 30, 1995
S.DEMONTE1                   at 21:18 EST

J.COX16,

 Thanks for checking that bug out...thought it was just my problem. I also
tend to have sound cut in and out during any game, but it doen't happen for a
while in to it. I have an AWE32. To solve this problem I just save, exit to
DOS, and reload the game. It works for usually for the next battle or so.

 Gary,
 Again must say after many hours invested....excellent game. Thanks

 Scott


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 300       Mon Oct 30, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 21:35 EST

     Am playing the Germans in the long campaign. At Salerno I get an Amphib
Landing mission. Since the Germans are defending this should have been a Delay
or Defend mission. Could be a touch confusing.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 301       Mon Oct 30, 1995
J.EVANS10 [JohnnyREB]        at 22:37 EST

I think I found a major bug in the patch.

 1. Wake Island scenario

 2. Japan - computer, USMC - human

 3. Computer finished turn just fine.

 4. My turn I did not get the orders/options icons on the right side of
    screen.

 5. Keyboard equivalants were not working either.

 6. I ejected my CD and got a drive D: failure and kicked to DOS, with the
    map of Wake Island still there.

The above happened in the desert scenario with IJN/USSR, but I was able to get
the icons by clicking in the area, but this time it did not work.

Has anyone else experienced this problem.

I played Wake Island before as the IJN and didn't have any problems. I'll go
back and see what happens.

REB



 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 302       Mon Oct 30, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 22:49 EST

Matt (SSI):

Last week I played the Tarawa Atoll scenario and was able to take out
pillboxes and bunkers by satchel charges, Avenger hits, even a hit with a
Sherman main gun.  This was even BEFORE I learned how to use the engineers'
flame throwers.

Since then, I downloaded and installed version 1.1 -- today when I tried the
Tarawa Atoll scenario again, NOTHING could take out a pillbox or bunker.  I
tried EVERYTHING -- repeated flame thrower attacks, satchel charges, engineer
assaults, Avenger hits -- the fortifications were ABSOLUTELY IMPERVIOUS to
them all.  Turn after turn I threw everything I had at them. One pillbox was
surrounded by three engineer squads.  For four straight turns it withstood
every attack I made with them.  I would repeatedly get the message "Shot
bounces off armor", even for flamethrower attacks.  Or I would get a hit
message, but nothing would happen.  The hex would become filled with oily
black smoke, but the Japanese inside would just keep shooting, even when the
fortification was pinned.  I finally gave up in absolute frustration.

My question:  Could the 1.1 patch have affected the ability to take out
pillboxes or bunkers?  Could it have screwed up scenarios?  Why could I
eliminate them in a variety of ways BEFORE I installed 1.1, but could not
affect them at all AFTER I installed 1.1?

Has anyone noticed this problem?  HELP!!

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 303       Mon Oct 30, 1995
V.NEWELL [VENOM]             at 23:15 EST

        Sickman:  I always carry infantry on tanks.  Yet, I am always being
surprised by the Germans.  It was not like this when I was the Germans.


        Also on a mission I was trying to accomplish my last victory area I
only captured two out of six hexs and still received credit for the mission.
Has anyone else noticed?


                                VENOM.



 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 304       Mon Oct 30, 1995
S.MALCZAK [Ivan]             at 23:18 EST

   Jabo:

   Yes your suggestions about how to win with the Russians/U.S. do indeed
work. I finally came to similar conclusions myself after being repeatedly
smashed. However, this is, IMNSHO, a flaw in the game system. The player
should not be forced into "unrealistic" force structures to win. In fact, I
think just the opposite should be true. If you pick "unbalanced" forces, you
should have a VERY tough time winning the game. Tactics and unit mixes evolved
for a REASON.

   All:

  Has anyone been able to win with any of the "minor country" forces? Just for
kicks, I decided to play the Italians vs. the U.S. and Defend scenario in '43.
  I had absolutely no chance of winning. Of that, I am firmly convinced. The
point costs do not adequately reflect the capabilties of the units. Italian
Infantry still costs about
 9-12 points per platoon and is effectively useless. They cant hit, and rout
the first time fired upon. Realistic? Probably in most cases, but hardly worth
playing.
 Same went for AT-guns and AFV's. Cost nearly as much as "Major power" units
but have such low morale/experience that they accomplished nothing. This is
similar to the experiences I had playing the Russians vs Germans. There is
simply no percentage in low-quality troops. The only advantage they can have
is numbers, and they cant really even get that.


  For all that, Im still playing the darned game to death.<G> Just hoping the
game will continue to evolve so that it pleases both casual gamers and
grognards...(the hope of all designers methinx <g>)


                                            Once more into the Breach,
                                            IVan
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 305       Tue Oct 31, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 02:09 EST

Ivan,

        Cost is relative, I think.  I think cost may be based on the realtive
ease of getting units.  The US had much manpower and materiel, so they could
afford men and good equipment.  The Italian units might not be as good, but
Italy was definitely a lot poorer than the US in producing trained men and
good equipment.  I think the Italians cost so much because their manpower was
more scarce and they didn't have the industrial base the US did.

        The only thing that kept the Italians in the war in North Africa was
the German Army.  The Brits pretty much pasted the Italians until Rommel
arrived on the scene.


Mike

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 306       Tue Oct 31, 1995
D.SICKLER [sickman]          at 02:34 EST

Hi Y'all,

        I've just downloaded the patch, and began the Ardenne campaign. I have
German SMG squads riding on my Panthers, just waiting for that assaulting
American infantry to pop out of the woods. Then "BANG", it happens. A U.S. SMG
squad attempts an assault on my tank from an adjacent hex, and the assault is
aborted. HOWEVER, my tank-riding squad has disappeared. Checking the roster, I
find it listed as destroyed. I repeated the process 4 times, and 3 times the
same thing happened. The fourth time, 6 men of the squad were killed, and the
rest had 80 supression points. While I realize tank riding infantry is
extremely vulnerable to point-blank fire, especially to the high firepower of
an American squad, I think this is a bit much. I hadn't noticed such
devastating effects prior to the patch. Has anything changed (intentionally or
not), or have I just not been paying attention?
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 307       Tue Oct 31, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 20:24 EST

Some questions: (futile ? seems that the powers that be haven't BEEN much
lately since the "patch"...)

1. Trying to design a 43' scenario, can't get any German motorcycle units.
Coincidence ? I think not.. I specified mechanized units, elite, etc, and when
I go to the unit purchase section, I can't get a motorcycle platoon to save my
life. I've even tried to edit a rifle platoon, but when I do, motorcycle's are
not an option to trade for...

2. Complaint: please, please, please allow us to, when designing a scenario,
specify an entry hex and turn. Without this ability, you have to do some
fudging that would make any citizen of the Bay Area proud...

3. Has anyone said, already, that LOS needs to be fixed ? Just thought I'd add
my 2cents here...

4. If number 2, above, were addressed sufficiently, then this game would
finally surpass Tanks as a scenario designer's dream. As it is, in order to
set up a real delay or flanking manoeuver, the only control you have is the
distance between the units original placement and the victory hex. Not good.

4(a). AA guns work now. This is the biggest change that I've seen personally
in the 1.1 "patch".


5. Observation: I talked to Sabre tonight. We are both "Tanks" fans. He opined
that "tanks is still a great game.." I add to that, that I agree. However,
Grigsby has attempted to take it a step further, at least in terms of level
(squad, etc), graphics, and sound. If he would continue to support the game
and rectify some of these anomalies, it won't garner him any more buckage.
Probably, whatever the initial sales and residuals amount to are not going to
change regardless of any mods that he may make. What will happen, however, is
that the hard-core gamer, who, if I may generalize, has been faithfull to
Grigsby's designs since Panzer Strike, will continue to support his games. In
terms of market share, as I have said here before,
 we don't amount to monkey shit. If we are indeed the forgotten, the market
sector that isn't worth courting, then I suggest we swtich alliances to people
that DO support our demands, eg, Scott Mitchell of "Panthers in the Shadows"
fame  (which I am ordering forthwith) and Koger, who has made every attempt
possible to fix TANKS to the degree that is required by historical accuracy.


A very disrupted,

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 308       Tue Oct 31, 1995
M.MARTINO [JAY]              at 20:25 EST

        Someone asked about AFV crew casualties a while back. If your AFV
takes a penetrating hit, i.e. the hit message doesn't say "Shot Bounces Off
Armor", they you may have suffered crew casualties. Right-click on the unit to
call up the unit detail window and look at where it says "Crew". You'll
probably find that you're a man or two short. I've had some tanks with only
one man aboard at the end of a scenario. BTW, I _think_ the tank automatically
blows up if the last crewman is killed. Perhaps there should be a few less
burning tanks on the map, just list it as abandoned. BTW, that's also
ahistorical (for those who care) to know that a vehicle is empty. Some tanks
were often shot at several times, long after being destroyed. Of course,
there's probably no way to simulate this without taking most of the fun out of
the game.
        Another aside: I've noticed that my opposition will occasionally blow
their own tanks as they bail out. This happens if the tank is routing and
recieves an immobilizing hit. I get the message "Track Hit, Immobilized" and
the crew bails, but as soon as the crew marker is on the map, the tank blows
up. Go figure.

        Jay
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 309       Tue Oct 31, 1995
M.MARTINO [JAY]              at 20:33 EST

Wolfgang,

        You mean Scott Hamilton.

        Jay
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 310       Tue Oct 31, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 21:30 EST

I was feeling a bit nostaligic this afternoon, so I got out the Typhoon of
Steel box from the closet of old classics. As many of you probably already
know, the game mechanics are very similar. It's really _too_ bad that the
manuals aren't.

I just cracked open the manaul to page 21, randomly. Here's what I found:

(relative to Arty fire)

" The maximum scattering distance depends on whether the firing unit is on map
or off map and how the target is spotted. If no unit can see the target square
(that is, the fire is blindly plotted), the maximum scatter is 9 squares. If
it's the first pulse that the firing unit has fired at the target, the max
scatter is 9 squares. If it is not blind fire and the firing unit fails to
pass an accuracy check the scatter is 4; if it passes such a check the scatter
is 2. The scatter of rocket fire is always 9."

Ya know, I found that I had actually highlited the above text. It goes on into
more detail. Am I the only one that finds it incredulous that games which were
developed 5, 6, or 7 years ago were actually more detailed (at least the
MANUALS were). I would dearly love this kind of information for SP. I have
been asking for terrain effects modifiers since day 1. To date, I have
received no answer. What's wrong with this picture ? Are we dealing with a
"Whammy Burger" outfit ?? I don't know about you guys, but I would REALLY like
to know such insignificant things as, what is the effect of infantry hiding in
rough terrain, tanks in defilade, squads in wooden or stone building, squads
in rubble, tanks in woods, tanks hull down, tanks from the air, infantry in
bunkers, what are the movement costs of open terrain for tracked vehicles,
half-tracks, cavalry, THE LIST GOES ON... I mean, GD, how much trouble can it
be to post this kind of data (let alone, heaven forbid, that we would have
required it with the RELEASE.)

If this game is destined for the PG crowd, then obviously, this kind of data
is immaterial. If, however, it is to be enjoyed by gamers who know their
stuff, then these kinds of calculations and modifiers are essential. I am
really ticked at SSI and those otherwise connected with this project that such
crucial data has been sloughed off so easily. The glaring example is Typhoon
of Steel. For a 29$ wargame, it sure had the data. Granted, the graphics
weren't up to todays standards, but so _what_. If we want graphics we can
always whip out our copy of IRON CROSS.

I guess our only sin is that we are not FANTASY RPG players. It's always REAL
easy to fudge that kind of "data."

Wolfgang
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 311       Tue Oct 31, 1995
J.WINSOR2                    at 22:01 EST

Wolfgang,

How much you wanna bet all that data you are asking for will come out in a
soon to be released "Steel Panthers Players Guide"?
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 312       Tue Oct 31, 1995
S.MALCZAK [Ivan]             at 22:36 EST


   Mike:

 I agree with you if I was playing a Strategic game of WWII. Then manpower,
industry etc. play a part. In a tactical game, the point values should reflect
"game effectiveness"
 The points are intended to provide the players with a means of creating
balanced force pools not to simulate the economic might of the combatants. In
thins, I believe they fail. As Wolfgang mentioned TANKS! I think it has one
the best "point value" systems going.


   Wolfgang:

 I hear you loud and clear on all points. I too took a trip down "memory lane"
and tunneled out "Kampfgruppe" with similar results. The data and info were
much more prevalent in the  18 pages or so of its rulebook. Unfortunately, I
fear SP is living in "Panzer General's" shadow. I hated PG. I realize it was a
GAME and not a SIMULATION but what a nightmare  that game was for me. Picture
this: TANKS! combined with the spotting and artillery from Steel Panthers with
SP's graphics and sounds...Wow!! Sound good to you???


                                            C'ya,
                                            Ivan
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 313       Tue Oct 31, 1995
P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog]          at 22:39 EST

Jim W.,

Good point.  I keep comparing this game to The Gamers TCS games (board). The
inf should be able to advance on foot with the tanks and get a defnesive
bonus.  The US inf added hand sets and cables into the tank so they could walk
and spot.  This also means that inf should be able to spot inf at longer
ranges then tanks can.  I HATE having my inf blunder directly into enemy inf.

Perry
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 314       Wed Nov 01, 1995
DREW [DREW]                  at 00:03 EST

re the remarks above re tactics:

Yes, I find it very effective to:

1) overload 1 flank with all my units 2) have _all_ my units overwhelm that
end of the enemy line 3) then move down the line wiping out the enemy units in
detail. It
   really helps to have 10-12 tanks sighting each of the enemy tanks
   as they come into view moving towards me. Each is destroyed in turn. 4)
_after_ all enemy units destroyed, easily run throught the victory
   hexes (which the AI seems hypnotized by).
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 315       Wed Nov 01, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 06:35 EST

The long campaign still hangs up individual scenarios after 4 turns.

I had a Polish counterattack (??!!) with about every tank they could find plus
cavalry and infantry in one scenario. I should have known something was up;
the objectives were almost on my side of the setup line.

I was busily shooting up Polish tanks when all of a sudden the game ended
after turn 4!! They hadn't all retreated (though they should have); there were
some cavalry units and tankettes I wanted to shoot still and they were still
shooting back.

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 316       Wed Nov 01, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 07:27 EST

The more I delve back into Typhoon, the more I realize that it may be, in
fact, superior to SP. Granted, SP has better graphics and sound, but there is
a depth to ToS that _seems_ to
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 317       Wed Nov 01, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 07:37 EST

Jim,

You got that right - the last three or four games I've purchased made me feel
as if I had purchased only half of a product. Millenia:Altered Destinies
(absolutely PATHETIC manual-about as much as you get with an audio CD),
Ascendancy, and now unfortunately, SP. I may be flogging a dead camel, but it
just seems that games of these types require more documentation. And yup, 2 of
the three aforementioned DO have "strategy guides". They are replete with the
kind of information that should have been included in the game. Trivial
matters, like how much damage weapons do, how to play the game, how to win,
etc.

The trend seems to be: 1) release a game for, say, $49. Sounds like a great
deal, no ? 2) release 2 or three 1.2 MB patches. Download costs vary, perhaps
7$ to get the game in a properly working state. Game costs now up to $56. 3)
Release the after market manual. Price ? $19.95. Actual game cost to customer
? $76 and some change. Quite a bit of hidden slush in these marketing
strategies, no ?

I am getting sick of it...

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 318       Wed Nov 01, 1995
D.FINLEY1 [Gila Monster]     at 12:42 EST

   My only complaints with the game so far is the time it takes to get mortar
fire on target and the manuals lack of details.  Why is it NONE of these games
have an appendix with keywords in the back like, "flamethrower"? I can't
figure out how to get the puppy to work.  I know I saw something about it when
I went through the manual, but now I can't find it.

   As far as the mortar fire goes, having done that in the Marines, it doesn't
take all that long to get some rounds downrange and start zeroing in on
target, especially with the 60MM.  It seems like the only difference between
the 60MM mortar and the 155MM howitzer is range and the size of the bang.

   Preferring infantry small unit tactics, I like the game a LOT!  I've been
running the Japanese campaign with lots of Marine infantry and some armor back
up to take out the tough spots and it's been working pretty historically, at
least as far I I've read and heard from the folks who were there.  I want my
flamethrowers though...

                                     Dave

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 319       Wed Nov 01, 1995
ARMY.TIMES [G.WILLIS]        at 13:20 EST

I have been losing Soviet bunkers and pillboxes to engineer assaults and close-
range tank fire in 1.1, so I see no bug.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 320       Wed Nov 01, 1995
GA.GRIGSBY [SSI-WIZ]         at 18:18 EST

Wolfgang,

I used the basic design of Panzer Strike as the starting point for Steel
Panthers.  In the original beta version of SP the formulas were almost
identical to those in Panzer Strike.  During the development process, most of
the formulas were modified to fit the new 2 minute turn structure.

Reading the Panzer Strike Manual can still give you a lot of insights into how
Steel Panthers works.

Gary
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 321       Wed Nov 01, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 18:19 EST

Dave,
        You can get engineers to use flamethrowers by ordering direct fire on
the target hex, not the target unit. I guess Gary felt a flamethrower was an
area weapon instead of a more 'personal' weapon.

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 322       Wed Nov 01, 1995
D.FINLEY1 [Gila Monster]     at 19:09 EST

John,

   Thanks, bud.  Pack the marshmellows, boys.  We goin' BBQING!!!

                                 Dave

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 323       Wed Nov 01, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 19:13 EST

Wolfgang,

I kind of have a split mind about the hard information missing from the
manual.  On the one hand, it peeves me too that software companies have found
a new way to squeeze dollars from the market with these "Player's Guides".  I
mean, imagine if every manufacturer started packaging instructions and
warnings separately from the merchandise you were buying. "Mister, here's the
combination limb shredder/chainsaw/blowtorch that you ordered.  For your
health, you'd better keep this sucker properly maintained.  However, you need
to go over to Aisle 7 and pay $19.95 for the handbook on care and use."

On the other hand, somebody posted something here awhile back that I also
agreed with.  Nobody German officer on the Russian front in 1941 had a handy
little data chart from which he could explicity calculate the exact
probability of hitting with his MG an entrenched Russian squad in woods hex,
versus a positioned Russian squad in a wood building.  No Panther tank
commander had the time or ability to calculate with precision the exact
probability of knocking out a moving T-34 at 600 meters versus knocking out a
stationary JS-I through dispersed smoke in woods at 400 meters.  They had to
handle these things on the fly drawing upon their prior experience and "feel"
for the situation.

To have all the statistical information and algorithims at our fingertips
would reduce this game to a raw mathematical exercise.  Not much fun to me.
 But of course, I don't have to crunch the numbers if I don't want to do so.

Ideally, the companies WOULD include the algorithims you want in the software
manual and NOT charge $19.95 for the information in a separate Player's Guide.
But when was the last time a corporation in this country let an ideal stand in
the way of MO' MONEY, MO' MONEY, MO' MONEY!

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 324       Wed Nov 01, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 19:24 EST

G.WILLIS,

Thanks for your post on your experiences with bunkers and pillboxes.  I went
back and took another stab at the Tarawa Atoll scenario just to try things out
once again.

This time, I was able to knock out several pillboxes and bunkers with tank
fire and engineer assaults with satchel charges -- but not all of them! Also,
flamethrowers still seemed to have ZERO effect on the pillbox/bunkers. Sure,
the hex would catch fire and become filled with roiling black smoke, the
inhabitants would become pinned -- but flamethrowers have yet to knock out one
of these fortifications for me.  In addition, the pinning caused by the
flamethrower seemed to have no effect on the Japanese inside -- they kept
firing both 75mm and machine guns and a very rapid and accurate rate. I had
several pillbox hexes burning for more than half the game, yet the inhabitants
just kept right on shooting.  Wouldn't these guys start to get a little too
hot inside for comfort?

All this made the Tarawa scenario VERY tough for the Americans.  At the end of
the game, I had only 1 squad left that was unpinned and I was able to capture
the very last victory hex with it on the very last turn.  All 3 of my Shermans
were knocked out by pillboxes, two of which were burning at the time.
American casualties were very heavy.  I earned only a minor victory. If you
want a challenge against the AI, I recommend it!

Dave,

As you can see from my experience, don't be too excited by the effects of
flamethrowers.  Sure, they quickly toast any hex inhabitants that are not in a
pillbox or bunker, but they appear absolutely useless against those
fortifications.  Good Luck!

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 325       Wed Nov 01, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 19:37 EST

Dave,

        I've got the flamethrowers (engineers) to work by firing on the target
hex with the direct fire icon ( "Z" command).  you have to be right next to
the target , though, so you can only use these at an adjacent hex. Satchel
charge attacks work the same way for Germans.

        Does anyone have a good strategy for doing well in the first Normandy
invasion.  I started the US June 1944 campaign twice and was hopelessly
trounced the first time, and managed a 752 to 484 decision the second time.  I
finally got a marginal victory the third time, 962 vs 324, and got past the
first scenario.

        I get bottled up on the beaches and only manage to break out about
turn 8.  Its a rush to get to the victory squares, and I have yet to get them
all.  I also get some of my units killed or immobilized on the beach from
enemy artillery.

        My last mix was 3 tank platoons, some CS tanks, and an engineer
section.  My support units were 4 egineer platoons, 3 engineer tank sections,
one group of 8 inch naval artillery, a flamethrower tank section. I can get
the engineers to the minefields, but I usually manage to get a one square gap
cleared after five or six turns worth of work.  Most of those mine squares
have atleast 15+ mines in them, so it goes slow when you only get two or three
mines a turn.  The landing barges do well at knocking out some of the units
they can see, if you really burn the ammo from their machine guns.  Meanwhile,
the enemy is raining death from his artillery. Where the minefields that
prevalent at Omaha Beach.  Rommel must have dumped a good supply at this
particular beach.



John,

        I wonder what is giving you those problems with scenarios ending on
turn four?  I haven't seen anything like that with my system, and I'm running
the game under WIN95.

Mike

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 326       Wed Nov 01, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 20:55 EST

Stu,

I too, beg to differ, at least in regard to the amount of information that was
at the fingers of a unit leader. Granted, they didn't have precise
calculations regarding the percentage effects of smoke at 200 metres, but they
DID have a wealth of information. To wit, I offer some excerpts from the
Wehrmacht Field Manual for the Nashorn:

(please forgive the formatting - the content is what's important)
 (re-posted from Bob-in-Fla's original post)
 begin quoted material:


"This is information on the use of the NASHORN.  It originally appeared in the
 March 1944 NOTES FOR PANZER TROOPS, and was later expanded and released as a

separat e manual. I found these excerpts in a 1979 issue of MILITARY JOURNAL.

Apparently, when the Nashorn was new, panicked commanders tended to use it as
 a front-line anti-tank gun or close-in defense weapon. This led to the
 destruction of many Nashorns (and their crews).

Here's what the Wehrmacht had to say about the Nashorn:

WEAK POINTS

Large superstructure (2.55m tall x 2.88m wide)--Hence:  big target, hard to
 camouflage
 Weak armor (front and side, 10mm)--Hence:  do not use as assault gun! Even
 anti-tank rifles can penetrate and cause the crew, and frequently the
 equipment, to become casualties.
 No overhead protection--Hence: vulnerable to artillery, mortar fire and
 strafing aircraft.
 No turret, gun traverse is only 15 degrees--Hence:  unmaneuverable in close-

range fighting; whole vehicle must be moved to re-lay on target changes over
 15 degrees
 Small ammunition issue, only 16 rounds per gun normal, 40 maximum--Hence:
 must resupply often, i.e., go back; ammuntion must be brought up by tracked
 carrier
 Frequent breakdowns; chassis is a special construction developed from the
 PzKpfw III and PzKpfw IV; engine is underpowered and only good for about 1500
 km before overhaul.
 Hence:  every kilometer saved prolongs vehicle life.

Specialist crew; except for the loader, all the crew are specialists whose
 training  takes considerable time--Hence: there must be no unnecessary
 casualties from faulty  tactics; replacements are very difficult.

STRONG POINTS
 Excellent gun, accurate and lethal up to 1980 m--Hence: protection of the
 main defense belt can be assured from positions well to the rear
 Very effective ammunition; every direct hit with AP shell is fatal.  The HE
 has good fragmentation, can be used with delayed-action fuze.  Indirect fire
 can be effected by the Auxiliary Sight up to about 9990 m.
 Great firepower; 14 vehicles per company, 45 per battalion--Hence:  if used
 in a body have absolute superiority over enemy tanks
 Good intercommunication; within vehicle by intercom, with company by radio-
 tra nsmitter, from company to company by 30-watt set--Hence: prompt warning
 possible at all times and situations can be speedily made known
 Warning system; battalion signals platoon has 4 WT sections and 2 30-watt
 detachments. Hence:  good observation/warning system possible
 LT communications; battalion and company will connect to tactical LT net--
 Hence: can be reached at all times by LT

DIFFICULTIES OF SUPPLY:  Do not employ the vehicles away from their LADs,
 recovery section, workshop, and technical stores; small breakdowns which
 cannot be repaired by the crew can put the vehicle completely out of action

LESSONS LEARNED:

In all situations the battalion, or at least a company, will be employed as a
 body. There must be no detailing of odd platoons.

ATTACK:  When infantry are attacking, the guns will be employed to protect and
 cover the flanks.  They may only be used as assault guns in temporary
 emergencies when nothing else is available.  Such employment nearly always
 causes heavy casualties, thereby weakening the unit's firepower in antitank
 defense.

DEFENSE:  Companies will be concentrated and will not be driven into recce'd
 fire positions until the enemy is seen to be attacking.  After the engagement
 they will immediately go to assembly areas for maintenance.

No gun will be ordered to take up a position immediately in the rear of the
 forward edge of the main defensive belt.  This causes unnecssary casualties
 before the beginning of the tank attack.

WITHDRAWAL:  During disengagements, employment of rear guards is only possible
 with strong infantry protection.  Infantry mounted on the gun will be under
 the command of the "Nashorn" unit commander.

GENERAL:  Before assigning tasks, listen to the suggestions of the "Nashorn"
 unit commander.  No orders will be given to individual vehicles without
 reference to him.
     END

----------


OK - granted, the foregoing did not mention the effects of fire at units in
woods thru smoked hexes at 400 metres, but since we as players aren't actually
ON the battlefield, we need this info in order to have the same advantage as
the _on_ field commanders.

Plus, as many of us wargamers have descended from the legacy of board games,
many of us don't feel comfortable unless we know for a fact that the computer
is treating stone structures as better defensibly than wooden structures. I
won't even mention the LOS problems, although if the manual said "..in order
to model the effect of pulling a tank up to a building and pointing the main
turret thru the window, we have decided to allow LOS thru bldgs.." then at
least we would know that in _every_ case, bldg's do not block LOS.

As an artillery seargeant, you can bet that I would know what the scatter
radius was of my rocket battery. SP doesn't tell us this. On the other hand,
Typhoon of Steel, did. Which is more realistic ? I can't be the judge, but I
do have my preferences. Are _you_ able to count how many hexes your arty
barrages scatter, and then coorelate the scatter to the spottin situation, who
is spotting, etc ? The point being, that since this is a simulation, and not
real warfare, the things that we would learn in real warfare thru experience
need to be enhanced thru better documentation. This is my biggest beef, I
guess..

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 327       Wed Nov 01, 1995
T.MORGAN [slapshot]          at 22:59 EST

  I also feel that the manual in SP is a disgrace. Remember that SP is a game,
which means a contest governed by agreed upon rules.  Raw data, formulas,
values and effects, should be available to both parties involved. Only if the
knowledge of how the calculations are based is available, can we be assured
that both sides are playing by the same rules.  (Not that I think any AI might
have an advantage)

  On another note, I really think the packaging is lousy.  Why do I need such
a large box for such a small manual and CD?  I much prefer the older 9x6 boxes
SSI used awhile ago, I mean a real box, one with a lid.  I put my SP manual
and CD in one of these boxes to see if it would fit, no problem and there was
plenty of room left.:)

Slapshot

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 328       Wed Nov 01, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 23:33 EST

Wolfgang,

Interesting stuff on the NASHORN notes!  However, I suspect that they were
being used as front line anti-tank guns not because the commanders didn't know
any better, but because the Germans were so desparate for ANY firepower to
stop the Russian onslaught at that stage in the war.  Also, I suspect any
commander would have detected the most of the strengths and weaknesses
outlined in the manual after 2 minutes in the vehicle -- i.e., large
superstructure, weak armor, lack of overhead protection, no gun traverse, etc.
-- and would have figured out the proper use from that eyeball inspection.

Also, knowledge of one's own weapons is one thing -- it seems you pretty damn
well ought to know your weapon's capabilities inside and out in war. The issue
is familiarity of the enemy's equipment, which lacking captured use and
testing, could only be gained by experience with what worked against it and
what didn't.

But in the main I agreed with you -- the manual SHOULD have had the data and
algorithms, but expecting such is no longer realistic now that publishers have
discovered the potential profits in "Player's Guides".

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 329       Thu Nov 02, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 06:22 EST

German tank commanders did indeed know the capabilities of enemy weapons that
had been facing them for awhile. They had a very good network of testing
captured equipment and distributing memos to the front lines about what range
they would penetrate front/side/rear armor, advantages and disadvantages,
range, speed, etc of all weapons they were facing.

I don't think they had a handy reference manual in the tank, but they did know
about what they were facing.

New ones, like the JS-II, were surprises until they had some to look at.

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 330       Thu Nov 02, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 08:54 EST

John,

Exactly my point.  German tank commanders gained knowledge of enemy weapons
either through testing of captured weapons or through experience in the field.
They did NOT have all the algorithms in a handy little manual in their hip
pockets, allowing them to resolve with precision whether it was better to
shoot at Target A or X, Smoke Target Y, of take cover from Target Z, with all
the numerous variables of the situation laid out mathematically before them.

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 331       Thu Nov 02, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 15:32 EST

Sabre: I'm awating the turn!   I'll play any side, any time.  For the record,
I prefer the Germans (my knowledge of their units is much better than my
knowledge of any other country.. Panzer General tends to do that to a
person...)

 Post the results wherever you like.  If you think that they make for
interesting reading, post them here.

 Jabo: I'll try to add every wish to the list.  But it _is_ a wish list.  The
game's main designers (Gary, Keith-SSI, etc.) will have to make the final
decisions on these things.  They have far more experience with these matters
than do I.

 Matt S.
 SSI
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 332       Thu Nov 02, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 18:00 EST

Wolfgang: The other alternative?  Make the game, hold it so we can test
_every_ single possibility in the game to make sure there isn't a bug.

 In the meantime, we squash some small bugs (and a large one or two), while
the game becomes graphically obsolete.  Our competition moves up a graphic
level, adds network support, etc.  4 months later  ad space opens in the
gaming mags. (Advertising is mandatory, or no sales. )  and we can release it.

 The end result, release an obsolete game with no bugs and a great manual,
sell few, go broke...

 You may choose to purchase our games upon release, in which case, thanks,
enjoy. You may also choose to wait till the updates are done and on the cd,
thus saving all the hassle of updating, and saving some $$$ as the product
starts to become discounted.  We leave you with the choice.

 Our updates are _free_.  Ask, and I will mail it to you.  We release as much
info as we can in the readme file with each update, again free of charge.  (I
realize that we could have released more info in the PG readme) but this game
does not require a strategy guide, unless you want to learn _strategy_, which
it is not our job to teach in the manual.

 Wolfgang: Killer info on the Nashorn thanks.  Where can I get more of that
kind of info?

 T.Morgan: Noted thanks.  I have no comment since I have no control over
packaging, and it seems very insignificant when compared with the job of
debugging this thing.

 Matt S.
 SSI
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 333       Thu Nov 02, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 18:11 EST

Stu,
        My point is that the tank commanders in the field got memos from HQ
that told them what ranges their guns would penetrate their opponents' tanks.
This was after the rear area research groups had tested captured vehicles with
German weapons for penetration data as well as mobility, range, etc.

By 1943 the German tank commander was very well aware of what was needed to
defeat the enemy's tanks.

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 334       Thu Nov 02, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 19:46 EST

Stu,

 I think we've been arguing two sides of the same coin.  I have given what I
regard as the general rule of tank/infantry co-operation, and you have cited
what I would regard as exceptions to this general rule.  I don't disagree with
those exceptions.  I would reconcile our two points of view by quoting from
the "bible" of tank warfare, Heinz Guderian's ACHTUNG - PANZER!

      "The tanks will go ahead of the infantry when an extensive tract of open
ground has to be
        traversed before the break-in.  When the two sides are in close
contact and the terrain
        favours the attack, the tanks will attack simultaneously with the
infantry; the infantry will
        have to attack under artillery cover ahead of the tanks when we need
to overcome intial
        obstacles - a stretch of river, for example, or barriers or minefields
- before the tanks can
        intervene."

 Like Guderian, I agree that tanks cannot (AND DID NOT) always lead the
attack, but that tanks leading or attacking simultaneously with infantry is
the PREFERRED tactic.  If we can agree on the above paragraph from ACHTUNG -
PANZER! as a concise explanation of tactical doctrine, then we have no
disagreement at all.

 BTW, ACHTUNG - PANZER! was my suggestion to Gary as a name for the game.

 Jim Wirth
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 335       Thu Nov 02, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 19:46 EST

Wolfgang,

 Motorcycles aren't available after 1942.

 Ivan,

 The point values are based on the relative effectiveness of the units without
regard to experience or morale.  This valuation was then adjusted for how
plentiful that particular unit was.  Experience and morale were not taken into
account for two reasons:

 1)  The experience and morale ratings are variable not static so a set cost
reflecting the unit's
        combat effectiveness would not have been any more accurate;

 2)  STEEL PANTHERS is intended to be an "historical" wargame, so at the
tactical level, better
       armies are going to outfight inferior ones if the forces are evenly
matched.

 If you want to "win" with low experience/low morale units, you must use the
EDITOR to construct a force balance that overcomes these liabilities.

 Jim Wirth
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 336       Thu Nov 02, 1995
L.SHARP [SABRE]              at 21:30 EST

SSI Matt,

Wolfgang and I sent it to you.  If you have not received it let me know. I'll
resend ASAP.  You are the Germans in the scenario we had the battle generator
create.

Col. Sabresky
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 337       Thu Nov 02, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 22:08 EST

     When they said long campaign they weren't kidding. 37 scenarios as the
Germans, but they still lost the war.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 338       Thu Nov 02, 1995
J.RECZEK                     at 22:46 EST


 SSI.SUPPORT--

 Any news about the Encylopedia Bug???

 I have the patch.. installed.. And when I look through the encyclo. for an
extended period of time, the computer eventually crashes..

 Will someone please try this?? Look at as many units as you can in the
encyclopedia and see if it crashes..

 ALSO

 Is anyone having trouble getting tanks with AT guns and MG guns to fire their
MGs at infantry at maximum range?
 My Matildas just WONT fire at infantry at long range.. I am playing a long
scenario..

 Thanks..

 Jake

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 339       Thu Nov 02, 1995
ARMY.TIMES [G.WILLIS]        at 22:47 EST

Stu,
 Could the flames you see on the pillboxes after unsuccessful flamethrower
attacks possibly represent burning napalm (or whatever it is) on the outside
of the pillbox that failed to penetrate? After all, an engineer unit at only 1
hex range is still half a football field away, and trying - while under fire -
to shoot a jet of flame through a few very small firing slits. The fire
outside would pin the occupants so they couldn't leave, but it might take a
long time to kill them or smoke them out, especially when they know it's
certain death to leave their position. It's probably just a percentage shot,
and your firing unit has to be steady and skillful as well.

 John and Stu,
 This is an interesting discussion about how much field commanders knew and
how much a game manual should tell us. I agree that the SP manual is a
disgrace, and we shoud have more designers notes/background data. But my
bottom line is this: War is hell. You won't always know what you wish you
knew. Concentrate on learning sound doctrine for the weapons and historical
period you're in -- if the game is any good, it will reward the player who
uses good military judgment. If the game doesn't reward this, it's flawed and
not worth playing. SP has its share of flaws, but its good points are so
strong that I think it gives a good overall feel for WWII tactical action. And
if SSI keeps supporting it, it will only get better!
 -- Grant

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 340       Thu Nov 02, 1995
A.MULLEN [Tony]              at 22:56 EST

Gary,

Just another observation to pass on...It seems friendly engineers will
dismantle their own minefields if placed adjacent to the hex containing said
mines.  Granted it's a pretty minor point but thought I'd mention it just the
same.  Btw, thanks for a great game.

Best,
      Tony
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 341       Thu Nov 02, 1995
MO.MORGAN                    at 23:11 EST

J.RECZEK,

It just happened to me tonight.  I copied all the error message details and
sent the text file to Matt at SSI.SUPPORT.  Hopefully they can fix it.

Mo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 342       Thu Nov 02, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 23:41 EST

John,

Like my discussion with Jim, you and I may be talking both sides of the coin.
I point to the experience gained in combat and the testing of captured
weapons, you point to how that information was collected and disseminated to
front line officers in the form of memos and reports.  In neither case,
however, did the officers have a handy sheet of algorithms that would point to
the best course of action on a chaotic battlefield.

Jim,

We probably are dividing the totality of combat situations into two aggregate
lumps, then using one lump to argue against the other.  But I don't see why
that makes my points exceptions to your general rule, if they are indeed two
sides of the same coin.  After all, half the time it will come up heads, half
the time not. ;)

I surely won't argue with Guderian on this matter, since I think the passage
you quote neatly summarizes the matter.  Agreed, we have no disagreement!


G.Willis,

Unquestionably, the flamethrowers are not penetrating the pillbox.  But I
still find it strange that they are so singularly ineffective against these
fortifications.  From my readings of Pacific combat, flamethrowers and
flamethrowing tanks were favored weapons against bunkers.  They were greatly
feared by the occupants, who liked for obvious reasons to make flamethrowers
their primary target.  In Steel Panthers, I have yet to see a reason why the
Japanese in a pillbox need do more than shrug at the sight of one of my
flamethrowing engineer units.

I also think the point about the one hex range in the attack is a bit
misleading.  That is the point from which the close assault is launched, not
from where it is delivered.  These same engineers are carrying satchel charges
which _can_ knock out a bunker, but they are obviously not flinging them from
50 yards away.

Let me know if you have any greater success (or any success at all) with your
flamethrowers against pillboxes and bunkers.  They are still terrific weapons
to use against entrenched Japanese.

One thing I also find a bit odd in the Pacific scenarios.  American tanks,
even Stuarts, have nothing to fear from Japanese infantry.  In fact, I like to
use them ahistorically to scout ahead of my infantry -- something tanks RARELY
did in the Pacific due to the generally close nature of the combat. What
typically happens is that my tank blunders into a hidden, entrenched Japanese
unit, which tries and fails to damage my tank with a close assault and is
revealed in the process.  My tank then just blasts away with all guns blazing
at this close range, taking out several Japanese with each volley. After two
shots, I'm free to move up an engineer unit without fear of defensive fire
from that Japanese squad.  The engineer then eliminates the remainder of the
squad with its satchel charges and flamethowers in just one "shot".  It is a
killer one-two punch against Japanese not in pillboxes or bunkers, but not
very historical.  So in Pacific scenarios, LEAD WITH YOUR TANKS!!

Strange.

Sorry for the long post!

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 343       Thu Nov 02, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 23:41 EST

Hi folks,

        Does anyone have a good strategy for winning the the scenario in the
US 7/1944 at Chartres?  It is an advance for the Allies, but "Lions and
Tigers, OHHH MY....  opps, Panthers <g>.

        I fought my way off Omaha Beach, and won the next scenario with out to
much difficulty...the Panthers were there, but they stayed away from the
objective hexes, so my armor could duck down behind folds in the ground after
running over a victory hex.  But....

        The next scenario was an advance, so I loaded up on armor, no supprt
artillery, and a few engineer platoons.  Maj WhatsHisName died, along with my
AO group, 4 platoons of tanks, the engineers, etc.  A fex disorganized and
routing units were headed for any cover they could find.  This one is a
b****h!  The Germans have at least four Panthers, 2 Tigers, and several PzIVHs
that I have seen kill my units.  The objective hexes are on the far right, the
middle of the map has a few small hills and LOTS of open terrain, with hills
to the east overlooking the approaches the Allies have to take. The panthers
and Tigers sit up on the hills, and the first you know they are thereis when
your tanks start to brew up.  I lost 4 tanks in one turn!  My shots bounce off
the Tigers and Panthers, and to outflank them is almost impossible, I think.
I did get a couple of tanks near the objectives closest to the center, but the
tanks and infantry died after the Germans drove their Panthers and Tigers back
and retook the hexes.  This one is a real bear!

        Anyone have tips on how to fight these monsters, or do my boys need
some R&R like Odd Ball in "Kelly's Heroes" <g>.  Maybe we should hold
ourselves in reserve so we can defend London.


Mike

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 344       Fri Nov 03, 1995
V.NEWELL [VENOM]             at 00:20 EST

        Mike:  For Normandy invasion I took Two sets of Sherman bulldozers and
put one set in the same hex.  It took about two to three turn to clear. Then
do your Blizt.



                                VENOM.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 345       Fri Nov 03, 1995
DONDO                        at 01:21 EST

On the pillbox issue:  I think that what is going on here is that after some
point of attack with flamethrowers, the enemy abandons the pillbox. However,
you have know way of knowing this until the next turn.

To see what I am talking about, smoke a pillbox with flamethrowers, then stop.
Click on it next turn, and you will see abandoned.

==Dondo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 346       Fri Nov 03, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 01:54 EST

Jake,     Sometimes my tanks won't fire with 'T' and 'F' but will if I right
click on the target hex. Hope it helps!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 347       Fri Nov 03, 1995
D.FINLEY1 [Gila Monster]     at 05:29 EST

   I just finished the 'Hell on Earth," scenario, (Peleliu,) and flamed
several pillboxes that continued to be active afterwards.  It is indeed napalm
burning on top but not penetrating the pillbox or bunker.  My gripe with the
AI of the 'puter is that my infantry, once it had gotten around behind the
bunkers and pillboxes continued to turn around and shoot at them rather than
at the Japanese infantry that were attacking from the west. They'd blow all
their ammo bouncing bullets off a bunch of steel and ignoring the nice soft
targets shooting them in the backs.  I couldn't get them to stop until I blew
the bunkers with my engineers, (which takes awhile sometimes, so they're all
tied up with that rather than crisping the IJA.

   Another thing I noticed, and I don't know if this is a bug or not, I
couldn't get my planes to attack until about turn 16.  They said there was a
one turn delay, but never bothered to show up.  Maybe the pilots were all out
chasing nurses and getting drunk, but it kind of torqued me.  Another minor
note was that my bombardment sure seemed drawn to my folks rather than the
enemy.  I watched round after round hit AROUND the bad guys, but if there was
drift near my guys, it was landing on top of them almost every time.  Needless
to say, the rivalry between the Marines and Navy was NOT reduced at all in
this scenario.

   Back to flamethrowers for a sec.  As I understand it, even if you don't get
inside the gun slits on a bunker or pillbox, flamethowers were very effective
because they used up all the oxygen and the folks inside the pillbox
suffocated in a matter of minutes.  I could be confusing this with napalm as
dropped from planes, but I believe I heard something about that from some
veterans awhile back.

   Finally, using the squad tactics I learned in the Marines, I have yet to
lose a battle.  I'm using primarily infantry with a couple tanks backing me
up, (fighting the pacific battles so far,) and basically have a reinforced
infantry company.  It's been less that glorious at times, and I've had to
scramble when a bunch-o-badguys get past my flank, but the game mechanics seem
pretty good to me, (except for guys shooting hard targets with rifles before
soft targets that are attacking them, that is.)  All in all, an excellent
game/simulation in my opinion, even with the weak docs.

                                 Dave

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 348       Fri Nov 03, 1995
B.MAKOWSKY [Julie&Magic]     at 06:18 EST

Also if infantry is moving and spots a unit a hex away it should stop and not
blunder next to that unit giving it the close assault bonus.

This happened to 4 of my infantry squads while pushing the Muse in France '40

Beat the heck out of the squad leaders after the battle for not stopping for
some prep fire.  Course they were pretty down anyway having lost 3-4 men each
in an ambush they saw and ignored.

Magic

PS I second the need for reinforcments and MORE DATA!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 349       Fri Nov 03, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 08:42 EST

DONDO:

In my playings of the Tarawa scenario, against the Japanese, the Japanese
NEVER abandon the pillbox.  They just sit tight and keep cranking out the
rounds, turn after turn.  I think the Japanese never retreat or pull back, so
they also will never abandon a pillbox or bunker.

Why are flamethrowers so useless against these positions?  Satchel charges
aren't too great either.  I sometimes use up all the satchel charges from one
engineer squad against one pillbox.  Very frustrating to run out of satchel
charges, know your flamethrowers won't help, and see those "pinned" Japanese
occupants continue to inflict casualties on anyone in their frontal arc.  The
Tarawa scenario has around seven pillboxes and three bunkers that you must go
against.  The most I've ever knocked out, after trying repeated satchel
charges, 75mm rounds from Shermans, flamethrowers, and Devastator attacks, are
three of the pillboxes and three of the bunkers.  There are turns where I have
3 engineer squads adjacent to a pillbox.  All of them assault the pillbox, and
none of them succeed.  This will go on for two or three turns before I just
decide to bypass it and move on, if I can.

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 350       Fri Nov 03, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 10:43 EST

Jim,

Why not ?


Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 351       Fri Nov 03, 1995
J.WESTPHAL [Joel]            at 17:35 EST

 Wolfgang,
 I am looking forward to playing your Wittman scenario.However,I do have to
tell you that Wittman was killed at Falaise Gap.He was surrounded by several
Sherman tanks which batterd his tiger to a pulp.
 His attack upon the British armoured coloum near Caen was a master stroke and
showed the Tigers superiority over all other Western tanks.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 352       Fri Nov 03, 1995
M.MARTINO [JAY]              at 19:59 EST

Wolfgang,
        You mentioned a while back that an artillery sergeant would know how
his rounds scattered. Sorry, he wouldn't. As a former mortar det commander and
command post operator I can say that the effects of the environment on
artillery and mortar ammunition isn't passed down in detail. Given the number
of variables, the average gunner doesn't know, or care, how his rounds
scatter. What he does know is an average number of rounds will fall in a given
area under most conditions (this is called the beaten zone). He usually also
knows the leathal radius of his rounds vs troops in the open. All of this is
under ideal conditions. Unspotted fire is terribly innefective, simply because
no-one knows where it's going. Accurate corrections are not that easy to give,
though it's a talent that's not that hard to learn. Still, experienced
spotters can make some real ugly errors (I remember an experienced fire
controller that took 16 mortar rounds to get on target, with a laser
rangefinder!).
        Frankly, I'm enjoying finding out for myself how effective my
equipment is. Frinstance: while the 88 may seem to have a laser rangefinder
and wire-guided ammo, I've discovered that it ain't all it seems. It's
hopelessly vulnerable to direct fire from HE unless dug-in. Every hit doesn't
result in a kill, though many are penetrations. It's effectiveness is reduced
against the better armoured opponents, like the Russians. I've found that it's
not worth the pints unless I'm in a defending scenario.

        Jay
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 353       Fri Nov 03, 1995
ARMY.TIMES [G.WILLIS]        at 23:23 EST

B.MAKOWSKY,
 <<Also if infantry is moving and spots a unit a hex away it should stop and
not blunder next to that unit giving it the close assault bonus.>>
 I know, but what's a leader to do when your squad creeps forward, enters a
house by the back door, looks out the front windows, suddenly sees Germans
outside, one hex in front -- and surrenders after the first shot is fired!
This happened to me yesterday as Americans in a PBEM random scenario set in
August 1944. After four turns his Panthers seem unstoppable -- but I just had
an air strike and my A-26s really packed a wallop: 2 truck destroyed, one
Tiger destroyed and one Tiger immobilized. That should even the odds a
little...This game is so much better against a live opponent, I can't wait for
hth motem play!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 354       Sat Nov 04, 1995
DONDO                        at 01:43 EST

As an experiment, I set up a scenario with 1 Japanese Pillbox [Pbox & two
bunkers] and one US Marine engineer squad, and just parked the engineers right
next to the pillbox/bunkers.  I discovered a couple of things.

First off, forts can only fire frontwards.  At least cpu ones.  Second, after
one FT/Satchel attack, the effectiveness of the forts does seem to drop off,
but they still can fire.  Third, after exhausting the FT/Satchel charges, I
kept banging away with the infantry, and eventually they will succeed with an
assault.

I also tried flaming the forts, and then backing off to see if they "cook",
but apparently not.  I have no idea how "realistic" this is.  However,
evenutally, the three engineer units were able to prevail over the three
Japanese forts.  I did lose one though.

==Dondo
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 355       Sat Nov 04, 1995
B.MAKOWSKY [Julie&Magic]     at 07:50 EST

G.Willis,

Ouch.  Now that is some bad luck.  It still peeves me that my troops will walk
right into an ambush when they see it from a hex away.

I'm sitting there yelling "STOP STOP" over the sounds of gunfire and music and
the cretins just keep running.

Great Game though.  Minor problems that I know will be fixed and we will
 be all set.

How about a network patch.  H2H over the network at work would be swell.

Magic
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 356       Sat Nov 04, 1995
LAST.RONIN [Kato]            at 08:44 EST

  I like the way the artillery affects surrounding hexes, to the point of
being able to get an occasional kill--quite realistic. What seems understated
is the supression effect of artillery (arguably one of the main missions of
the King of Battle); Shells that have just taken a pounding-- especially
infantry or crews with no overhead cover--ought to be significantly
suppressed.

John, do you realize the insignificance of the angle difference 10' in
elevation makes over a distance of 400 or 600 feet? Any advantage is mental in
nature...

On the improving hit percentage: what is the reasoning behind the phenomenon
of, after having achieved a plateau percentage, a decrease in the percent
chance to hit? Seems counter-intuitive...

I would agree that time spent shooting should detract from time spent moving,
and vice versa (depending on the lack of stab for WWII vehicles).

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 357       Sat Nov 04, 1995
K.COOPER [GUNNER KZIN]       (Forwarded)

Wolfgang,

My roomate and I have tried 4 or 5 of the canned scenarios. All of them were
pretty much disapointing. We decided to play your Danube scenario and found it
very well balanced. Good work there, I reccomend everyone to DL it and play it
versus a human.

As far as my feeling on SP:

Overall, I find this game entertaining against a human. Against the PC, I find
it quite boring and not very challenging. The PC AI plainly stinks. I have
never seen such gross incompetence. However, I can not think of a game where
the AI has really given me a run for the money. What really disheartens me is
that PC's have blossumed in every other aspect. The graphics, sound, and speed
have truly evolved in the PC world. Plots and gameplay originality have made
huge strides in the last 3 years. But one thing remains constant, computer
AI's stink! They are predicatable, ignornat, boring, and rarely challenge the
human intelect. The gaming industry needs to apply some engineering skills
here to bring PC AI's into todays market.

I have heard all too often that it's not possible to develop a computer AI
that can match that of a human. I disagree, I believe it can be done, but it's
going to take much research and money to do it. It's been done in every other
category of the PC market.  We have gone form the XT to the P-6. The 10 MB
hard drive to a gigabyte plus. Monochrome to 3d generated graphics. Ect, ect,
ect....  Now if we can only get some decent AI, That would be better that
peace and harmony in the world as far as I am concerned ;).

Gunner

BTW, hello to the Air Warriors I've seen posting on this board :).
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 358       Sat Nov 04, 1995
LAST.RONIN [Kato]            at 09:44 EST

  I _don't_ think arty should be used to clear mines. Folks, in real life,
troops don't go blundering through an obstacle (like a minefield) merely
because arty has prepped the area! Talk to a combat engineer; he'll tell you
that while arty MAY set off _a_ mine, it's more likely to sensitise those that
remain, making them very dangerous to try to remove.

Tanks' abilility to spot dug in (and presumably camoflaged) troops seems
pretty accurate to me. Even with the TC riding up in his hatch, spotting well
camoflaged fighting positions while bouncing around on a tracked vehicle with
a "christy" type suspension is very tough to do--even in the desert (been
there, done that (for 3 years with the Army's OPFOR in the Mojave)). And
spotting infantry that's gone to ground can be quite difficult as well. This
is true, in my experience, for three reasons:
        1) You're bouncing around, unless your track is going REAL slow. Makes
it tough to _really_ (visually) search a piece of terrain.
        2) The tendency is to discard a piece of terrain that looks empty (in
favor of number 3, below).
        3) Tanks kill other tanks. Tankers are trained to be searching the
terrain 600, 800, 1500 (and more) meters away, looking for other armored
vehicles (which can themselves be very difficult to spot before they fire).
TCs are usually looking "further out" than 300-400 meters and can easily
overlook a target as small as an infantry squad; and beyond that range people
can be surprisingly difficult to pick out from surrounding terrain, even
without battlefield haze.

Ah--so that's it! I don't recall reading that you couldn't switch from an HE
to a smoke mission... that seems a bit limiting!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 359       Sat Nov 04, 1995
MO.MORGAN                    at 11:25 EST

Kato,

Thanks for your personal experiences on the subject of tanks spotting enemy
units in message 358.  Makes the game appear to make more sense.

I guess I'm now waiting for you to create a "National Trauma Center" scenario
a la Fort Irwin.  Give it a shot!

Mo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 360       Sat Nov 04, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 12:14 EST

DONDO --

Thanks for your interesting and useful experiment with Japanese Pillboxes! I
already knew that they could fire only in their frontal arc, so once you get
past them you can basically ignore them.  Your pinned Marines don't, however,
as someone noticed -- they prefer the bunkers and pillboxes as targets over
the fresh Japanese squads still in front of them.

I have NOT noticed a drop in their effectiveness after one FT/Satchel attack.
From my experience, they are still capable of inflicting heavy casualties,
stopping movement, and knocking out tanks.

I had NOT noticed that infantry will eventually succeed with an assault after
exhausting their FT/Satchel charges.  Problem is, in these scenarios you don't
have the time to keep attacking the same fortification over and over.

I played the Peleliu scenario last night -- Hell on Earth.  Again, I was
realistically confronted with numerous pillboxes and bunkers.  Again,
flamethrowers were useless.  I found my most success by assaulting with
engineers and Raiders assaulting with satchel charges.  By game end, I had
knocked out every pillbox and bunker, but only with satchel charges.

It was another interesting and finely tuned scenario.  I only succeeded in
capturing all the victory hexes on the very last turn.  My casualties were too
heavy to score a decisive victory.  After finally working through the
fortification line, losing all my tanks but one to a combination of 75mm
pillbox shots, Japanese engineer ambushes, and minefields, I started my
infantry and sole surviving M5 towards the rear victory hexes.  They were
smacked by a Japanese banzai attack from the Japanese rear.  The Japanese were
wiped out in 3 turns of fierce fighting, but they seriously delayed my advance
and made the game a close one.  Another scenario I recommend.  Those Japanes
5" guns were devastating against my Marines, killing 4 or 5 with every shot!

Stu



 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 361       Sat Nov 04, 1995
B.MILLER31 [Brad Miller]     at 13:29 EST

I know it's been stated here before but could somebody tell me what the size
of a hex is in this game? I forgot and can't seem to find it in the manual,
thanks.

Brad
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 362       Sat Nov 04, 1995
G.BECK7 [Greg]               at 18:15 EST

Jay,
 Interesting points about the 88. There's no way to objectify the fear value
of that artillery piece, IMO. After leaving college to enlist in tanks (Fort
Knox, KY), my dad fought in a series of tanks on the way up from Marseilles to
the relief of Bastogne (where he acquired a lifelong dislike for cold
weather...he lives in Fla, now) on into Germany, where he left his M4, "The
Black Bitch," (He loved dogs and brought back a GSD puppy he named Blitzen)
behind when the war ended. Dad was the type who never talked much about the
war. He never told me how he got a Bronze Star and Purple Heart. I knew not to
ask.

One day, though, in about 1960, when our family was cruising up and down some
steep little hills in SW Ohio in the '56 Chevy, out of the clear blue sky, he
 started talking about German 88's (first time I'd heard of them) and that the
hills reminded him of how the Germans would place 88's in a position that
would target tanks just cresting a hill. The Germans could then fire a shot
into the undersides of the tanks' hulls. I think he said they were especially
deadly because of their relatively flat trajectory and rapid firing rate, or
something. To him, 88's were straight out of hell.

***

Mike,
 We must be following the same career path. I've had a devil of a time trying
to beat the Germans in that third Normandy scenario with Tigers in town and
Panthers just south. Finally, at 2:00 a.m. this morning I circled most of my
infantry, half tracks and tanks around through the hills to the north and
attacked south into the western victory hex town under air support from A-
26's. I kept just enough (hate to say it) sacrificial tank materiel to the
west at long range to occupy enemy forces south of the towns.

The AI and I slugged it out at point blank range, building to building, in
increasing amounts of smoke and fire. Jeez, was it a confused situation, all
back and forth into the victory hexes. I had to leave the room with the sound
turned off so I wouldn't have to watch my tanks go up in flames as their
shells bounced off the Tiger, which finally retreated after twenty- five or so
hits. The crew must have been rendered deaf! This is quite a "game," no?

I won once at 950 to 450, then 1246 to 145, as I recall.

Best,
 Faux Paws (Greg)









 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 363       Sat Nov 04, 1995
ARMY.TIMES [G.WILLIS]        at 22:38 EST

Personally, I'm finding air power (especially A-26s) to be the great equalizer
in my current PBEM game as Americans against a German opponent in 8/44. It's
just so much easier to keep the Shermans and Stuarts holed up out of sight and
let the flyboys blast the Tigers from a safe distance. My computer practically
shakes when those A-26s drop a whole string of  1000-pound bombs!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 364       Sat Nov 04, 1995
V.MILAN [Vic]                at 22:41 EST

Greg => Interestingpoint about the morale effect of 88s.  Reminds me that
history books frequently disparage the Tiger I & II because they were too
heavy, tended to bog down, & in the case of he Tiger II, the drive train &
suspension weren't really up to hauling all that weight.

But I've read plenty of accounts by people who encountered them, & known one
or two WWII vets who actually encountered the King Tiger.  Slow & unreliable
they may have been, but the Tiger clan was big, ugly, massively armored, &
packed a monster punch.  In action, they scared the hell out of people.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 365       Sun Nov 05, 1995
DONDO                        at 05:05 EST

Well, after all this talk about Japanese pillboxes, I started up a Pacific
career USM.  Started with greenies.  Purty funny in the early battles to see
the whole battlefield crawling with retreating jarheads:).  One or two shots,
and those guys head for cover.

I have discoverd the perfect infantry killer though.  Buy a bunch of
flakmobiles, and load em up with engineers.  Don't know how realistic it is,
but those babies really chew through infantrty.  What the AA doesn't kill,
just hop the engineer off and blast away.  You can't lead with them as they
don't handle assaults very well, but once the little sucker pop up, the
flakmobile will chew through 6-9 in its turn.

Then there are the armored cars from hell.  Some oneplease explain how come I
can blast away with 90% hit chances, and my 37s just bounce off.  They pound
away at the tanks [Stuarts] with the 92TMG, and while the shells bounce off
the armor, the tank ends up routed.  Even a juice of flame/satchel from the
engineers don't take them out.  Jeesh!

==Dondo [still working on the pillbox problem]
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 366       Sun Nov 05, 1995
B.MAKOWSKY [Julie&Magic]     at 06:27 EST

Brad,

Hexes are 50 yds Turns are minutes (2-3?)

Started a PBEM game with Los.  Will give details as they occur,

So Far:  Recon elements of the 7th Panzer have been ambushed by heavy French
tank force.  Casualties remain light and counter forces are on the march.

Magic
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 367       Sun Nov 05, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 08:35 EST

Greg,

        Will try your strategy.  I tried moving my entire force thru the north
woods, and it was very time-consuming.  Didn't leave anything behind to occupy
the Panthers...as Oddball said, "The only way I got to keep those Tigers busy
is to let them shoot holes in Me!"

        You only get 92 points for support units in this one, and that does
buy much...sheesh.

Will try again.


Mike

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 368       Sun Nov 05, 1995
LAST.RONIN [Kato]            at 08:38 EST

  Heh heh, Mo. Making a scenario like those encountered at Ft. Irwin is
something that'll have to wait until the SP World War III expansion disk. <g>

        I'm playing a couple of scenarios against Tombstone. Gonna be
interesing. One late-war battle Ger vs. Rus almost ALL of which will take
place in city hexes. Gonna be nerve-wracking. Second is turning out to be a
Sov banzai charge against my dug in Germans; it'd look to be a slaughter, but
Tomb's trying an end around I didn't expect, and may be able to seize enough
high ground to make my defense nearly untenable. We'll see. Would be much more
fun if it were modem, rathan than Play/Snooze-by-email.

        Zheesh, that 88 just seems like too much, mostly when compared to
other tank guns. Not so much the lethality, but the accuracy. And that's the
thing that makes playing countries other than German so damned frustrating.
Most the German weapon systems have a fire control rating of 5 (10 for the
88!), while the allied fire control tends to max out around 4, with most of
the units (especially Russians) at a 2! Why are the German weapon systems so
much more accurate? Were they really, historically?
        And say all you want about the accuracy of the 88 (ack ack model)-- it
doesn't seem right to be able to use THOSE accuracy figures against ground
targets, when the tank destoyer 88's fire control is so much less. How do you
explain the difference?
        I just hate to see the Americans take a beating. <heh> And that's
today's commentary. <g>


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 369       Sun Nov 05, 1995
M.HUGHES32                   at 09:23 EST


Would anyone like to try to E-MAIL a game of Steel Panthers in any senario? If
so I'll need help on downloading.
M.HUGHES32






 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 370       Sun Nov 05, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 10:39 EST

DONDO:

If you want a taste of the REAL Japanese pillbox problem, take a stab at one
of the later war scenarios -- Hell on Earth or Tarawa Atoll.  Those scenarios
present the problem in very stark light.

BTW, I wouldn't expect a 37mm shot from a Stuart to be able to knock out a
pillbox -- the armor is too thick save for a lucky shot through the viewing
slit.

When you later get hold of Shermans, those 75mm shots can occasionally destroy
a bunker or pillbox, but not with any assurance at all.  Engineer satchel
attacks are a surer bet, but not by a whole lot -- and just try getting those
engineers adjacent when you have to cross interlocking zones of fire from
several Japanese bunkers, pillboxes, and entrenched heavy machine gun squads.
Still, when you finally see that pillbox go up flames to that satisfying
explosion -- it is a rare enough happening that it really gives you a lift
when it does.

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 371       Sun Nov 05, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 11:46 EST

Chief,

 I can't believe nobody answered your post so allow me:

 STEEL PANTHERS is a game of tactical ground combat in WWII scaled at 50 yards
to a hex and 2 minute turns.  Units are scaled at individual vehicles and guns
and infantry squads of 9 to 13 men. There are lots of "special" units as well,
like snipers, cavalry, partisans, etc.  In addition to ordinary ground combat,
game includes amphibious assaults, naval gunfire, river crossings, and
tactical air power.  Turn sequence is first player, then second player.  A
player may fire and move or move and fire, but moving units have reduced
accuracy when firing.  Enemy player can respond to both fire and movement with
opportunity fire.  All significant nationalities that fought in WWII are  in
the game including such seldom modelled forces as Yugoslavian partisans and
Nationalist Chinese.

 As to how good the game is, this topic speaks for itself.  Despite bugs in
the initial version and numerous criticisms about realism aspects, the game
continues toget raves.

 EVERYBODY,

 I re-examined the ratings of both pillboxes and flamethrowers and can't
understand why flamethrowers are wasting pillboxes with regularity.  It sounds
like there may be some bug in the routine so hopefully Gary will check it out.

 Wolfgang,

 Why not what or were you addressing your comment to another Jim?

 Jay,

 Your comments are always so "on target" (pun intended)!  I'm glad to see
somebody is discovering how to deal with 88s.  I've been preaching USE YOUR
ARTILLERY for weeks now and finally someone is listening.

 G.WILLIS,

 Like Jay above, you've discovered another secret to dealing with the Germans -
TACTICAL AIR POWER.  ALWAYS buy tac air when it is available.  The rocket-
armed aircraft are especially effective at close air support.  If you don't
have air available, then buy artillery even if only a couple of mortars;
you'll always find a use for it.  American artillery has superior
effectiveness to all other artillery in the game; is cheaper than anyone
else'sof the same caliber, and has more ammunition.  Buying American artillery
is a "no brainer".

 Jim Wirth


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 372       Sun Nov 05, 1995
J.COBB7 [bismarck]           at 13:20 EST

Speaking of arty, could somebody tell me how on-board arty movement REALLY
changed with the patch? I can still limber, move, unlimber and frie several
shots. Is there an algorithm for the amount of movement and number of shots
available for fire?

Thanks.

Jim Cobb

Jim W,

You're absolutely right; arty was the real killer of WWII. Maj. Holdridge says
that's one of the reasons that an absolutely accurate tactical game would not
be hugely popular. Call in the arty, drink a cup of coffee, move up till you
get pinned, more arty, more coffee.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 373       Sun Nov 05, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 13:36 EST

Kato,

I think that the reason for the 88's accuracy is several fold: first, the flat
trajectory/high muzzle velocity. Second, the optics were bausch (of Bausch and
Lomb) and were probably the finest in the world. On the 88 FLAK, the optics
were designed to provide such accuracy as would allow them to deal with
targets at 25,000 ft (aircraft). I'm sure theres more involved than this, and
some of the resident munitions experts will surely elaborate. BTW, where are
you coming up with these fire control ratings ? Typhoon of Steel or PZ Strike
? I wonder if the data from these games was ported over completely intact,
save the modifications made for different scale/time frame?

Sabreski and I are having a helluva time in our PBEM. This game is stellar
when you can find a living opponent to engage.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 374       Sun Nov 05, 1995
S.RAYNOR [STEVER.]           at 15:08 EST

Gary/SSI/Somebody,

I've been enjoying this game since I bought it.  Recently, however, I began a
long campaign as the Americans.

I started in North Africa.  O.k.  I begin the first turn and send a Warhawk I
purchased as support out to scout the German positions.  And, was I surprise
to find a *Tiger* tank heading my way!  This is December '41 I don't think
Tigers were available.  Is this a bug? (rhetorical question)
 (if it is available then why don't I, as the Germans, have the opportunity to
select it as well?)

Another concern I have after playing the game for quite a while is the fact
that the computer artillery can home in on targets which are out of sight and
have not even fired.  It's quite annoying when you move your 88 off the hill
to relative safety and find 5 152mm batteries landing shells all around.

This game is awesome!  The few bugs there are aren't enough to keep me from
playing!

Steve R.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 375       Sun Nov 05, 1995
D.FINLEY1 [Gila Monster]     at 15:33 EST

Stever,

   That Tiger in Africa in '41 was obviously the prototype, dude! :)

                                   GM
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 54        Sat Nov 04, 1995
DONDO                        at 01:43 EST

As an experiment, I set up a scenario with 1 Japanese Pillbox [Pbox & two
bunkers] and one US Marine engineer squad, and just parked the engineers right
next to the pillbox/bunkers.  I discovered a couple of things.

First off, forts can only fire frontwards.  At least cpu ones.  Second, after
one FT/Satchel attack, the effectiveness of the forts does seem to drop off,
but they still can fire.  Third, after exhausting the FT/Satchel charges, I
kept banging away with the infantry, and eventually they will succeed with an
assault.

I also tried flaming the forts, and then backing off to see if they "cook",
but apparently not.  I have no idea how "realistic" this is.  However,
evenutally, the three engineer units were able to prevail over the three
Japanese forts.  I did lose one though.

==Dondo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 55        Sat Nov 04, 1995
B.MAKOWSKY [Julie&Magic]     at 07:50 EST

G.Willis,

Ouch.  Now that is some bad luck.  It still peeves me that my troops will walk
right into an ambush when they see it from a hex away.

I'm sitting there yelling "STOP STOP" over the sounds of gunfire and music and
the cretins just keep running.

Great Game though.  Minor problems that I know will be fixed and we will
 be all set.

How about a network patch.  H2H over the network at work would be swell.

Magic
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 56        Sat Nov 04, 1995
LAST.RONIN [Kato]            at 08:44 EST

  I like the way the artillery affects surrounding hexes, to the point of
being able to get an occasional kill--quite realistic. What seems understated
is the supression effect of artillery (arguably one of the main missions of
the King of Battle); Shells that have just taken a pounding-- especially
infantry or crews with no overhead cover--ought to be significantly
suppressed.

John, do you realize the insignificance of the angle difference 10' in
elevation makes over a distance of 400 or 600 feet? Any advantage is mental in
nature...

On the improving hit percentage: what is the reasoning behind the phenomenon
of, after having achieved a plateau percentage, a decrease in the percent
chance to hit? Seems counter-intuitive...

I would agree that time spent shooting should detract from time spent moving,
and vice versa (depending on the lack of stab for WWII vehicles).

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 57        Sat Nov 04, 1995
K.COOPER [GUNNER KZIN]       (Forwarded)

Wolfgang,

My roomate and I have tried 4 or 5 of the canned scenarios. All of them were
pretty much disapointing. We decided to play your Danube scenario and found it
very well balanced. Good work there, I reccomend everyone to DL it and play it
versus a human.

As far as my feeling on SP:

Overall, I find this game entertaining against a human. Against the PC, I find
it quite boring and not very challenging. The PC AI plainly stinks. I have
never seen such gross incompetence. However, I can not think of a game where
the AI has really given me a run for the money. What really disheartens me is
that PC's have blossumed in every other aspect. The graphics, sound, and speed
have truly evolved in the PC world. Plots and gameplay originality have made
huge strides in the last 3 years. But one thing remains constant, computer
AI's stink! They are predicatable, ignornat, boring, and rarely challenge the
human intelect. The gaming industry needs to apply some engineering skills
here to bring PC AI's into todays market.

I have heard all too often that it's not possible to develop a computer AI
that can match that of a human. I disagree, I believe it can be done, but it's
going to take much research and money to do it. It's been done in every other
category of the PC market.  We have gone form the XT to the P-6. The 10 MB
hard drive to a gigabyte plus. Monochrome to 3d generated graphics. Ect, ect,
ect....  Now if we can only get some decent AI, That would be better that
peace and harmony in the world as far as I am concerned ;).

Gunner

BTW, hello to the Air Warriors I've seen posting on this board :).
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 58        Sat Nov 04, 1995
LAST.RONIN [Kato]            at 09:44 EST

  I _don't_ think arty should be used to clear mines. Folks, in real life,
troops don't go blundering through an obstacle (like a minefield) merely
because arty has prepped the area! Talk to a combat engineer; he'll tell you
that while arty MAY set off _a_ mine, it's more likely to sensitise those that
remain, making them very dangerous to try to remove.

Tanks' abilility to spot dug in (and presumably camoflaged) troops seems
pretty accurate to me. Even with the TC riding up in his hatch, spotting well
camoflaged fighting positions while bouncing around on a tracked vehicle with
a "christy" type suspension is very tough to do--even in the desert (been
there, done that (for 3 years with the Army's OPFOR in the Mojave)). And
spotting infantry that's gone to ground can be quite difficult as well. This
is true, in my experience, for three reasons:
        1) You're bouncing around, unless your track is going REAL slow. Makes
it tough to _really_ (visually) search a piece of terrain.
        2) The tendency is to discard a piece of terrain that looks empty (in
favor of number 3, below).
        3) Tanks kill other tanks. Tankers are trained to be searching the
terrain 600, 800, 1500 (and more) meters away, looking for other armored
vehicles (which can themselves be very difficult to spot before they fire).
TCs are usually looking "further out" than 300-400 meters and can easily
overlook a target as small as an infantry squad; and beyond that range people
can be surprisingly difficult to pick out from surrounding terrain, even
without battlefield haze.

Ah--so that's it! I don't recall reading that you couldn't switch from an HE
to a smoke mission... that seems a bit limiting!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 59        Sat Nov 04, 1995
MO.MORGAN                    at 11:25 EST

Kato,

Thanks for your personal experiences on the subject of tanks spotting enemy
units in message 358.  Makes the game appear to make more sense.

I guess I'm now waiting for you to create a "National Trauma Center" scenario
a la Fort Irwin.  Give it a shot!

Mo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 60        Sat Nov 04, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 12:14 EST

DONDO --

Thanks for your interesting and useful experiment with Japanese Pillboxes! I
already knew that they could fire only in their frontal arc, so once you get
past them you can basically ignore them.  Your pinned Marines don't, however,
as someone noticed -- they prefer the bunkers and pillboxes as targets over
the fresh Japanese squads still in front of them.

I have NOT noticed a drop in their effectiveness after one FT/Satchel attack.
From my experience, they are still capable of inflicting heavy casualties,
stopping movement, and knocking out tanks.

I had NOT noticed that infantry will eventually succeed with an assault after
exhausting their FT/Satchel charges.  Problem is, in these scenarios you don't
have the time to keep attacking the same fortification over and over.

I played the Peleliu scenario last night -- Hell on Earth.  Again, I was
realistically confronted with numerous pillboxes and bunkers.  Again,
flamethrowers were useless.  I found my most success by assaulting with
engineers and Raiders assaulting with satchel charges.  By game end, I had
knocked out every pillbox and bunker, but only with satchel charges.

It was another interesting and finely tuned scenario.  I only succeeded in
capturing all the victory hexes on the very last turn.  My casualties were too
heavy to score a decisive victory.  After finally working through the
fortification line, losing all my tanks but one to a combination of 75mm
pillbox shots, Japanese engineer ambushes, and minefields, I started my
infantry and sole surviving M5 towards the rear victory hexes.  They were
smacked by a Japanese banzai attack from the Japanese rear.  The Japanese were
wiped out in 3 turns of fierce fighting, but they seriously delayed my advance
and made the game a close one.  Another scenario I recommend.  Those Japanes
5" guns were devastating against my Marines, killing 4 or 5 with every shot!

Stu



 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 61        Sat Nov 04, 1995
B.MILLER31 [Brad Miller]     at 13:29 EST

I know it's been stated here before but could somebody tell me what the size
of a hex is in this game? I forgot and can't seem to find it in the manual,
thanks.

Brad
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 62        Sat Nov 04, 1995
G.BECK7 [Greg]               at 18:15 EST

Jay,
 Interesting points about the 88. There's no way to objectify the fear value
of that artillery piece, IMO. After leaving college to enlist in tanks (Fort
Knox, KY), my dad fought in a series of tanks on the way up from Marseilles to
the relief of Bastogne (where he acquired a lifelong dislike for cold
weather...he lives in Fla, now) on into Germany, where he left his M4, "The
Black Bitch," (He loved dogs and brought back a GSD puppy he named Blitzen)
behind when the war ended. Dad was the type who never talked much about the
war. He never told me how he got a Bronze Star and Purple Heart. I knew not to
ask.

One day, though, in about 1960, when our family was cruising up and down some
steep little hills in SW Ohio in the '56 Chevy, out of the clear blue sky, he
 started talking about German 88's (first time I'd heard of them) and that the
hills reminded him of how the Germans would place 88's in a position that
would target tanks just cresting a hill. The Germans could then fire a shot
into the undersides of the tanks' hulls. I think he said they were especially
deadly because of their relatively flat trajectory and rapid firing rate, or
something. To him, 88's were straight out of hell.

***

Mike,
 We must be following the same career path. I've had a devil of a time trying
to beat the Germans in that third Normandy scenario with Tigers in town and
Panthers just south. Finally, at 2:00 a.m. this morning I circled most of my
infantry, half tracks and tanks around through the hills to the north and
attacked south into the western victory hex town under air support from A-
26's. I kept just enough (hate to say it) sacrificial tank materiel to the
west at long range to occupy enemy forces south of the towns.

The AI and I slugged it out at point blank range, building to building, in
increasing amounts of smoke and fire. Jeez, was it a confused situation, all
back and forth into the victory hexes. I had to leave the room with the sound
turned off so I wouldn't have to watch my tanks go up in flames as their
shells bounced off the Tiger, which finally retreated after twenty- five or so
hits. The crew must have been rendered deaf! This is quite a "game," no?

I won once at 950 to 450, then 1246 to 145, as I recall.

Best,
 Faux Paws (Greg)









 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 63        Sat Nov 04, 1995
ARMY.TIMES [G.WILLIS]        at 22:38 EST

Personally, I'm finding air power (especially A-26s) to be the great equalizer
in my current PBEM game as Americans against a German opponent in 8/44. It's
just so much easier to keep the Shermans and Stuarts holed up out of sight and
let the flyboys blast the Tigers from a safe distance. My computer practically
shakes when those A-26s drop a whole string of  1000-pound bombs!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 64        Sat Nov 04, 1995
V.MILAN [Vic]                at 22:41 EST

Greg => Interestingpoint about the morale effect of 88s.  Reminds me that
history books frequently disparage the Tiger I & II because they were too
heavy, tended to bog down, & in the case of he Tiger II, the drive train &
suspension weren't really up to hauling all that weight.

But I've read plenty of accounts by people who encountered them, & known one
or two WWII vets who actually encountered the King Tiger.  Slow & unreliable
they may have been, but the Tiger clan was big, ugly, massively armored, &
packed a monster punch.  In action, they scared the hell out of people.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 65        Sun Nov 05, 1995
DONDO                        at 05:05 EST

Well, after all this talk about Japanese pillboxes, I started up a Pacific
career USM.  Started with greenies.  Purty funny in the early battles to see
the whole battlefield crawling with retreating jarheads:).  One or two shots,
and those guys head for cover.

I have discoverd the perfect infantry killer though.  Buy a bunch of
flakmobiles, and load em up with engineers.  Don't know how realistic it is,
but those babies really chew through infantrty.  What the AA doesn't kill,
just hop the engineer off and blast away.  You can't lead with them as they
don't handle assaults very well, but once the little sucker pop up, the
flakmobile will chew through 6-9 in its turn.

Then there are the armored cars from hell.  Some oneplease explain how come I
can blast away with 90% hit chances, and my 37s just bounce off.  They pound
away at the tanks [Stuarts] with the 92TMG, and while the shells bounce off
the armor, the tank ends up routed.  Even a juice of flame/satchel from the
engineers don't take them out.  Jeesh!

==Dondo [still working on the pillbox problem]
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 66        Sun Nov 05, 1995
B.MAKOWSKY [Julie&Magic]     at 06:27 EST

Brad,

Hexes are 50 yds Turns are minutes (2-3?)

Started a PBEM game with Los.  Will give details as they occur,

So Far:  Recon elements of the 7th Panzer have been ambushed by heavy French
tank force.  Casualties remain light and counter forces are on the march.

Magic
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 67        Sun Nov 05, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 08:35 EST

Greg,

        Will try your strategy.  I tried moving my entire force thru the north
woods, and it was very time-consuming.  Didn't leave anything behind to occupy
the Panthers...as Oddball said, "The only way I got to keep those Tigers busy
is to let them shoot holes in Me!"

        You only get 92 points for support units in this one, and that does
buy much...sheesh.

Will try again.


Mike

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 68        Sun Nov 05, 1995
LAST.RONIN [Kato]            at 08:38 EST

  Heh heh, Mo. Making a scenario like those encountered at Ft. Irwin is
something that'll have to wait until the SP World War III expansion disk. <g>

        I'm playing a couple of scenarios against Tombstone. Gonna be
interesing. One late-war battle Ger vs. Rus almost ALL of which will take
place in city hexes. Gonna be nerve-wracking. Second is turning out to be a
Sov banzai charge against my dug in Germans; it'd look to be a slaughter, but
Tomb's trying an end around I didn't expect, and may be able to seize enough
high ground to make my defense nearly untenable. We'll see. Would be much more
fun if it were modem, rathan than Play/Snooze-by-email.

        Zheesh, that 88 just seems like too much, mostly when compared to
other tank guns. Not so much the lethality, but the accuracy. And that's the
thing that makes playing countries other than German so damned frustrating.
Most the German weapon systems have a fire control rating of 5 (10 for the
88!), while the allied fire control tends to max out around 4, with most of
the units (especially Russians) at a 2! Why are the German weapon systems so
much more accurate? Were they really, historically?
        And say all you want about the accuracy of the 88 (ack ack model)-- it
doesn't seem right to be able to use THOSE accuracy figures against ground
targets, when the tank destoyer 88's fire control is so much less. How do you
explain the difference?
        I just hate to see the Americans take a beating. <heh> And that's
today's commentary. <g>


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 69        Sun Nov 05, 1995
M.HUGHES32                   at 09:23 EST


Would anyone like to try to E-MAIL a game of Steel Panthers in any senario? If
so I'll need help on downloading.
M.HUGHES32






 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 70        Sun Nov 05, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 10:39 EST

DONDO:

If you want a taste of the REAL Japanese pillbox problem, take a stab at one
of the later war scenarios -- Hell on Earth or Tarawa Atoll.  Those scenarios
present the problem in very stark light.

BTW, I wouldn't expect a 37mm shot from a Stuart to be able to knock out a
pillbox -- the armor is too thick save for a lucky shot through the viewing
slit.

When you later get hold of Shermans, those 75mm shots can occasionally destroy
a bunker or pillbox, but not with any assurance at all.  Engineer satchel
attacks are a surer bet, but not by a whole lot -- and just try getting those
engineers adjacent when you have to cross interlocking zones of fire from
several Japanese bunkers, pillboxes, and entrenched heavy machine gun squads.
Still, when you finally see that pillbox go up flames to that satisfying
explosion -- it is a rare enough happening that it really gives you a lift
when it does.

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 71        Sun Nov 05, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 11:46 EST

Chief,

 I can't believe nobody answered your post so allow me:

 STEEL PANTHERS is a game of tactical ground combat in WWII scaled at 50 yards
to a hex and 2 minute turns.  Units are scaled at individual vehicles and guns
and infantry squads of 9 to 13 men. There are lots of "special" units as well,
like snipers, cavalry, partisans, etc.  In addition to ordinary ground combat,
game includes amphibious assaults, naval gunfire, river crossings, and
tactical air power.  Turn sequence is first player, then second player.  A
player may fire and move or move and fire, but moving units have reduced
accuracy when firing.  Enemy player can respond to both fire and movement with
opportunity fire.  All significant nationalities that fought in WWII are  in
the game including such seldom modelled forces as Yugoslavian partisans and
Nationalist Chinese.

 As to how good the game is, this topic speaks for itself.  Despite bugs in
the initial version and numerous criticisms about realism aspects, the game
continues toget raves.

 EVERYBODY,

 I re-examined the ratings of both pillboxes and flamethrowers and can't
understand why flamethrowers are wasting pillboxes with regularity.  It sounds
like there may be some bug in the routine so hopefully Gary will check it out.

 Wolfgang,

 Why not what or were you addressing your comment to another Jim?

 Jay,

 Your comments are always so "on target" (pun intended)!  I'm glad to see
somebody is discovering how to deal with 88s.  I've been preaching USE YOUR
ARTILLERY for weeks now and finally someone is listening.

 G.WILLIS,

 Like Jay above, you've discovered another secret to dealing with the Germans -
TACTICAL AIR POWER.  ALWAYS buy tac air when it is available.  The rocket-
armed aircraft are especially effective at close air support.  If you don't
have air available, then buy artillery even if only a couple of mortars;
you'll always find a use for it.  American artillery has superior
effectiveness to all other artillery in the game; is cheaper than anyone
else'sof the same caliber, and has more ammunition.  Buying American artillery
is a "no brainer".

 Jim Wirth


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 72        Sun Nov 05, 1995
J.COBB7 [bismarck]           at 13:20 EST

Speaking of arty, could somebody tell me how on-board arty movement REALLY
changed with the patch? I can still limber, move, unlimber and frie several
shots. Is there an algorithm for the amount of movement and number of shots
available for fire?

Thanks.

Jim Cobb

Jim W,

You're absolutely right; arty was the real killer of WWII. Maj. Holdridge says
that's one of the reasons that an absolutely accurate tactical game would not
be hugely popular. Call in the arty, drink a cup of coffee, move up till you
get pinned, more arty, more coffee.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 73        Sun Nov 05, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 13:36 EST

Kato,

I think that the reason for the 88's accuracy is several fold: first, the flat
trajectory/high muzzle velocity. Second, the optics were bausch (of Bausch and
Lomb) and were probably the finest in the world. On the 88 FLAK, the optics
were designed to provide such accuracy as would allow them to deal with
targets at 25,000 ft (aircraft). I'm sure theres more involved than this, and
some of the resident munitions experts will surely elaborate. BTW, where are
you coming up with these fire control ratings ? Typhoon of Steel or PZ Strike
? I wonder if the data from these games was ported over completely intact,
save the modifications made for different scale/time frame?

Sabreski and I are having a helluva time in our PBEM. This game is stellar
when you can find a living opponent to engage.


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 74        Sun Nov 05, 1995
S.RAYNOR [STEVER.]           at 15:08 EST

Gary/SSI/Somebody,

I've been enjoying this game since I bought it.  Recently, however, I began a
long campaign as the Americans.

I started in North Africa.  O.k.  I begin the first turn and send a Warhawk I
purchased as support out to scout the German positions.  And, was I surprise
to find a *Tiger* tank heading my way!  This is December '41 I don't think
Tigers were available.  Is this a bug? (rhetorical question)
 (if it is available then why don't I, as the Germans, have the opportunity to
select it as well?)

Another concern I have after playing the game for quite a while is the fact
that the computer artillery can home in on targets which are out of sight and
have not even fired.  It's quite annoying when you move your 88 off the hill
to relative safety and find 5 152mm batteries landing shells all around.

This game is awesome!  The few bugs there are aren't enough to keep me from
playing!

Steve R.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 75        Sun Nov 05, 1995
D.FINLEY1 [Gila Monster]     at 15:33 EST

Stever,

   That Tiger in Africa in '41 was obviously the prototype, dude! :)

                                   GM

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 76        Sun Nov 05, 1995
P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog]          at 16:04 EST

Joe,

I copied the pages on Wittman's unit for Wolfgang and will mail it tommorrow.
Villers-Bocage is not that close to Caen.  Alos, I included the death skirmish
where 5 Shermans blew up his Tiger.  That will not make a SP game as it is too
small and there is not enough detail in the article.

re 88's,

I just got Rothbrust's _Guderian's XIXth Panzer Corps and The Battle of
France_, 1990, ISBN 0-275-93473-X.  He spends lots of pages talking about all
the lessons the Germans learned from Poland.

On page 38 he says the following:

"The Polish Campaign successfully demonstrated the multiple capabilities of
the Luftwaffe's Flak arty.  Army commanders realized the potential of the 88mm
Flak guns as backup arty.  More important, however, the Army viewed the 88mm
Flak gun, with its pinpoint accuracy, as a decisive weapon to combat tanks and
ground targets.  Thus, anticaircraft gun crews trained not only in their
traditional role, but also practiced firing at ground targets.  The
Luftwaffe's 88 mm gun crews of the 1st Flak Corps (87), placed under
operational control of Panzer Group von Kleist for the ofensive, followed this
training pattern at the Ahrbruck Luftwaffe Training Center.  The Panzer Group
relied upon the Flak Corps to provide effective AA cover, engage enemy tanks,
and neutralize enemy bunkers.  The troops of the 1st Flak Corps, in their
support of Pz Group von Kleist, experienced tremendous physical demands during
the advance to the Meuse River. ... On numerous occasions single gun crews
were called upon to engage enemy tanks or points of resistence along the
TMR's."

Footnote (87) "The first German Flak units of corps size were activated at the
conclusion of the Polish Campaign. ... The Flak's 88 mm AA gun proved itself
in Poland as a definate AT asset.  The 88mm guns w/ their AP ammo seemed a
viable solution.  The Flak could engage aircraft, tanks and bunkers.  The
Luftwaffe, in organizing these new Flak corps, initiated some fundamental
changes in the ammo allocation.  Flak units would carry 50% time fuze, used in
AA missions, 30% percussion fuzes, for ground targets, and 20% AP ammo."

All of us playing the Allies in Europe can fear the things (and we don't even
hear the "whiz-bang" that the ground units did.  I just think they are too
cheap for the ability.  They also should take longer then 2 minutes to deploy
after moving.

Perry
   *s
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 77        Sun Nov 05, 1995
R.HEINZ [Bob-in-Fla]         at 17:11 EST

> allied fire control tends to max out around 4, with most of the units
>(especially Russians) at a 2! Why are the German weapon systems so
 >much more accurate? Were they really, historically?

Russian mortars were very effective. The "Stalin Organ" (Katyushas??) rockets
were also feared by the Germans. Later in the war, Soviets used massive (and I
do mean _massive_) indirect artillery barrages to break the German defensive
lines in their big offensives.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 78        Sun Nov 05, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 17:37 EST

The 88mm used antiaircraft optical rangefinders. Considering the 88 could hit
B-17's at 30,000 feet, it's no wonder they could pick off tanks at 2000 yards.
They also could fire at the rate of 10 rounds/minute in a ground support mode,
so a couple of the weapons could devastate a moving tank platoon very quickly.

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 79        Sun Nov 05, 1995
B.TONEY2 [TopCat]            at 18:26 EST

Hello everybody!

        Steel Panthers is one heck of a game, eh?  I have found
 a web site for SP, a part of which is dedicated to gamer designed SP
 scenarios.  (They didn't open this part of the site until SSI gave
 them their OK.)  As of Nov 4, there were 7 new scenarios, as follows:

*1*   Bocage Waltz II (a makeover of the original scenario from
        Typhoon of Steel), by Andy Ralls [Bocal.zip]

*2*   Grabner's Last Ride - Arnheim Bridge, 18 Sept 1944, by Trey Marshall
      [Grabner.zip]

*3*   Winter Road, Korea 1950 [Korea50.zip]

*4*   Peiper on Point - 18 Dec 1941, by Andy Ralls [Peiper.zip]

*5*   The Armored Roadblock - 24 Jun 1941 - Rossienie, Lithuania,
      by Trey Marshall [Roadblk.zip]

*6*   Gabr Salem - 19 Nov 1941, by Andy Ralls [Salehzip]

*7*   South of Leningrad - 12 Jan 1943 [Scen060.zip]


The Web Site is:  http://www.annurev.org/~tanker/games/ssi/sp/spscen.htm

        I am also uploading these 7 files to our library here.

        Enjoying the great ongoing SP discussions.  Later,

TopCat.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 80        Sun Nov 05, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 19:01 EST

Jim Wirth,

Uh, I don't know if the following was a typo:

>> I re-examined the ratings of both pillboxes and flamethrowers and can't
understand why flamethrowers are wasting pillboxes with regularity.

The point I have made and the one which DONDO is examining to support my
assertion is that flamethrowers NEVER knock out a pillbox or bunker.  In this
game, they are essentially useless against Japanese fortifications, since the
Japanese do not rout or surrendur.  The flamethrower will pin them, but that
seems to be the ONLY effect.  However, I have several photos of Marines using
flamethrowers against bunkers and pillboxes to knock them out.  What gives?

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 81        Sun Nov 05, 1995
B.TONEY2 [TopCat]            at 19:20 EST

Hi again-

        I have just up-loaded the seven gamer designed scenarios I
 found on the web. I haven't played any of them yet, so I can't make
 any picks or pans.  The file numbers are:

10202 - Bocwal.zip
 10203 - Grabner.zip
 10204 - Korea50.zip
 10205 - Peiper.zip
 10206 - Roadblk.zip
 10207 - Saleh.zip
 10208 - Scen060.zip

        Each of these files is about a 3 minute d/l, and that's X-modem
 at 9600.   Z-modem should be better.  I'm going to try Bocage Waltz II
 first.

        I also want to send kudus to Wolfgang for his very thoughtfully
 designed (and difficult for me) Danube scenario, file name SPSCN.zip .

Later,

TopCat.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 82        Sun Nov 05, 1995
J.DOUGLAS5 [JimD]            at 21:56 EST

Hi;    I also am having no luck at running a Japanese long campaign in the
Pacific starting in Dec 1941.   All units start a passangers in pillboxes and
the leaders all die on the first turn.

Since I am using v1.1 and other folks have been getting the same error I
assume that it is not my machine or the CD.

So, is a fix in the works???


Jim
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 83        Sun Nov 05, 1995
T.TREADWAY2 [Chief]          at 22:35 EST

Jim,

        Thanks for the reply.  I appreciate the info.


                                        Todd T.
                                        Hakuna Matata!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 84        Mon Nov 06, 1995
V.MILAN [Vic]                at 03:44 EST

Bob => Sov arty was very effective, but I'm not sure anybody ever accused the
Katyushka of extreme accuracy.  The Sovs went in for mass, as your post points
out, & I'll bet their FOs weren't the world's greatest.

OTOH, didn't late-war American tanks have superior aiming systems?  I had that
impression.

===

Re the 88 problem, Len Deighton's excellent BLOOD, SWEAT, TEARS, & FOLLY [I
think that's it; it just went back to the library] quotes a German who was
amazed that the 1940 Brits never twigged to the tactic of gangbanging AT guns
with indirect-fire arty.

How available is the 4.2" mortar to the Amis?  I bet you could take some
starch out of 88s with those puppies, if you had the right terrain.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 85        Mon Nov 06, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 09:15 EST

just did a scan for these files and they are not here yet.  Why?


Mike

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 86        Mon Nov 06, 1995
R.OLIVERE [Oly]              at 09:48 EST

        I believe there is a lag time after files are uploaded, so GEnie
personnel can check the files. I got the files from the Web and they look
interesting. I am also, like others, using my Panzer Strike manual when I feel
the need for more hard data. Great game.

Oly
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 87        Mon Nov 06, 1995
M.HUGHES32                   at 10:42 EST


                                                         Is anyone interested
in trying a game right now,that is if I'm able to upload? If so send a reply
soon.

M.HUGHES32

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 88        Mon Nov 06, 1995
DONDO                        at 18:20 EST

Okey, the files 10202-08 are the seven new scenarios.  lIB 19.

==Dondo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 89        Mon Nov 06, 1995
J.COBB7 [bismarck]           at 18:22 EST

I've been playing the Polish campaign with German mech inf. On the second
scenario, the core inf. doesn't start with the half-tracks. Is this correct?
Should I have to but the HTs as support units?

Jim Cobb
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 90        Mon Nov 06, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 18:54 EST

Jake: After looking through the encyclopedia for 2 hours one evening last
week.  I gave up.  It appears (from the lack of reports of others) that it is
your machine.  Please send autoexec.bat and config.sys files for my
evaluation, and we can go from there. E-mail them please.

 I am aware of the 'not firing' bug, and will try to convince Mr Grigsby to
take a look at it. Save a save game when this is happening and send it to me
if you please.  It should make it easier for Gary to find that way.

 Matt S.
 SSI
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 91        Mon Nov 06, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 18:55 EST

I have just uploaded a new scenario that I designed based upon 11th Pz
Division action in and around Manutchskaya. It is called MANUTCH.ZIP, and
unfortunately I don't recall the file number.

I am currently working on a DNEPROPETROVSK 1941 scenario, to address the
woefully inadequate amount of 1941 typical mobile actions in Barbarossa. Sabre
is playtesting as I type (thanks Sabreski!).

Perr Dog,

I am anxiously awaiting the materials on Villers-Bocage. I plan on doing a
block-buster-barn-burning job on that one ! You'll be the first to get it !

BTW, SSI or anyone else who knows,

While I was working on "Kick in the Bread Basket (Dnepro,41) I found a button
that I had never accessed before. It allows you to set a reaction turn for
units. The default seemed to be 99. Can you explain this more fully? It was
not in the manual *(surprise, surprise!)*


I have played the Bocage Waltz II scnenario and can personally vouch for it.
Thoughtfull setup and a really NICE map. The guy obviously put some time into
the map. Played the Germans and got a marginal. Has anyone else noticed that
when you play home-grown scenarios, the kind of 10:1 lop sided victories
required for a decisive are VERY hard to come by ???

Wolfgang out,


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 92        Mon Nov 06, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 18:59 EST

Vic,

Later War American tanks had a device called the gyrostabilizer, which
apparently let them fire on the move with out such a detriment. It compensated
for vertical as well as horizontal movement of the firing platform. From the
materials I've read however, most TC's and gunners didn't trust it therefore
didn't use it. As for the basic optics, I'm not real up on that. I've spent a
lot more time looking into the German armor. It is, after all, more
interesting, no ?

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 93        Mon Nov 06, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 19:02 EST

Topcat,

Glad you liked the Danube scenario. That's my favorite of all the scenarios
I've designed. Too bad I know where everything is <g>.

I really like that map, so I'm thinking of doing another scenario using the
same map. Kinda like the ol' ASL days - use the same map boards for differing
scenarios. This one will be tank heavy...

GOD I LOVE THIS GAME....(los notwithstanding)


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 94        Mon Nov 06, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 19:13 EST

Greg (re: message 362)

Nice post. Hats off to your Dad as well. It's not many that faced 88's and
lived to tell about it. I had an uncle who died in the air drop just before H-
Hour on D-Day - he apparently dropped into a swamp and drowned. I never knew
him. Ya know, the more I learn about WWII, the more I admire the GI's who
landed in Normandy. They faced the toughest, most professional, most blooded
army in the world - and they had to swim in to fight it ! Of course, the US
8th had a lot to do with it - if they hadn't knocked out the transpo net and
if Rommel would have been placed in command of the defense of the beaches,
then they might still be speaking German in France now.

As Rommel said to his aid, he had never seen an army learn so much so fast
(speaking about the US Army).

All,

You guys, I really enjoy the enlightened and informed opinions that I find
here. I really feel that there's a genuine camaraderie that has developed, and
I have met several acquaintances here that have turned into very good friends.
I'm not sure of this, but I have hear ugly rumours of GEnie going the way of
the Dodo or the Nashorn. This would leave a very big void in my life! I mean,
where else can I call up a local number, spend a buck or so online, and be
privy to the informed and oft original postings of people who are extrememely
up on their WWII stuff. I also have an account on AOL, and let me say this -
the level of discussion there makes me think that most of the posters are
Nintendophyles who dabble in wargames like Panzer General. Something to
ponder: where will the Grognards go if GEnie goes under ?

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 95        Mon Nov 06, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 19:52 EST

Jim Wirth,

Partisans ?? I haven't seen any of those yet. Matter of fact, I've been
thinking of designing a scenario involving partisans and was debating the
mechanics involved therein.

Also, regarding the previous message to which you responded, to this effect,
"Wolfgang, which Jim are you posting to...", I was posting to your statement
that motorcycles aren't available after 1941(2)?. To which I queried "Why not,
Jim ?"


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 96        Mon Nov 06, 1995
ARMY.TIMES [G.WILLIS]        at 20:57 EST

Wolfgang,
 <<. I'm not sure of this, but I have hear ugly rumours of GEnie going the way
of the Dodo or the Nashorn. This would leave a very big void in my life! I
mean, where else can I call up a local number, spend a buck or so online, and
be privy to the informed and oft original postings of people who are
extrememely up on their WWII stuff. I also have an account on AOL, and let me
say this - the level of discussion there makes me think that most of the
posters are Nintendophyles who dabble in wargames like Panzer General.
Something to ponder: where will the Grognards go if GEnie goes under ?>>

 (Please excuse our going slightly off-topic here...)
 I peruse AOL a lot and I agree that the level of discussion here is far
better for real wargames and sims. The Washington Post had an interesting
article today to the effect that yes, GEnie is hopelessly behind its
competitors and may not survive, but OTOH it has realized that gamers and
gaming are the core of its audience (Air Warrior, etc.) and it plansto refocus
the entire service around gaming. Only time will tell whether this is yet more
corporate happy-talk, but perhaps there may be a good side to all this.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 98        Tue Nov 07, 1995
R.HEINZ [Bob-in-Fla]         at 20:32 EST

Wolfgang:
 > I also have an account on AOL, and let me say this - the level of
 >discussion there makes me think that most of the posters are Nintendophyles

Delphi has a wargaming forum (Custom Forum 24) that has some outstanding
 contributors. Very knowledgable, helpful, enthusiastic and often quite
 amusing.

>partisans? haven't seen any of those...

I think Kato is the expert on partisans with big *i*s! <g,d,r> (Private joke
 from Air Warrior RT)

FurBull



 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 99        Tue Nov 07, 1995
B.MILLER31 [Brad Miller]     at 21:15 EST




Does anybody know how to get the map editor to give you a bridge at any
 other height than -3 ?

I dl'ed the Arnhem scenario and like it a lot but in order for it to be
 accurate I think that the bridge  should be at least at a +2 elevation, at
 least thats what all of the pictures and maps that I have suggest.

Brad


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 100       Tue Nov 07, 1995
V.MILAN [Vic]                at 21:49 EST

Wolfgang => Thanks for the info.

Yes, I have to admit the German armor is cooler.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 101       Tue Nov 07, 1995
L.SHARP [SABRE]              at 22:38 EST

Of course those JSIII's aren't exactly slouches!  And the JSU152's will kind
of get your blood going if you are of the German slant.   Then throw in some
Sturmovik's and you have the making of some real fine fried brautwurst. Then
for dessert we have hordes of Russian peasants with one thought on their mind.
To grab every Fraulein in sight, and toast each and every German continued
health with a molatov cocktail.  We won't  even mention the tons of Artillery.


This oughta get Wolfgang going.

Sabre
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 102       Wed Nov 08, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 00:18 EST

Wolfgang,

Just curious, but are the buildings in your DANUBE scenario able to block LOS?
I would love to head back into urban fighting with this, but the way LOS can
be traced through several hexes of buildings really ruins it for me.

I like the cottage industry going on constructing Steel Panthers scenarios, of
which you are an important part!  I just wish I had the space on my hard drive
to download them all.  350 megs just don't go as far as they used to ...

BTW, I fully share your sentiment about the circle of people here on Genie --
there are several people I've never met who I now consider good friends just
through our communications on Genie.  I don't know what I'll do if Genie gets
stuck back in the bottle!

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 103       Wed Nov 08, 1995
C.LOURENCO [Los]             at 02:22 EST

I found that the best way to knock out a pill box is to approach and attack it
from behind, so as not to be exposed to it's covered arc. Of course, for all I
know the game doesn't model CA, but it works for me anyway. If it's true that
FTs don't knock out pillboxes, then that's a problem.

Los
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 104       Wed Nov 08, 1995
K.COOPER [GUNNER KZIN]       at 04:54 EST

I've been playing a long camp  as the US Army vs. the Japanese. After 7
straight missions, I've fought several pillboxes and bunkers. The best way to
take out a Pillbox is to drive a tank up from it's rear loaded with an
engineer. I first try and let the tank do the work. If that does not work,
then I go at it with  the enginneer. At first I was using the flame thrower in
the assult, but kills were rare. I have 2 pillbox kills with a flamethrower.
Satchel charges seem to be more effective though. I don't use the flamethrower
assult anymore, just tanks and satchels. It is possible to kill with a
Flamethrower, it's not easy though. The best weapon so far against a pillbox
is a tank with a 75 gun on it and 6 shots from point blank range.

Gunner

Hiya LOS :).
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 105       Wed Nov 08, 1995
BC.MILLIGAN                  at 09:00 EST

I've only had this game for a week, and despite what I have read about some
bugs in the prior 104 messages, I have to say that this is the best tactical
computer game I have ever come across.  I also wanted to tip my hat to Gary
for including Sgts. Greenwood and Dunnigan -- I'm sure Don and His Holiness
will appreciate it.

      I missed whatever introduction there was to 1.1.  Since  I haven't used
flamethrowers yet (I've begun a campaign in the Pac, but so far I am on the
defensive, facing massed infantry assaults preceded by smoke barrages; cute),
I don't know what (other than that) 1.1 was supposed to fix -- could someone
please briefly summarize?

       My favorite features of this game are two -- the sound and the fact
that infantry firing MGs and small arms can cause a tank to button up.  This
is one of the few games I have seen where there is a purpose in such fire.

       One other thing -- as former games product manager for GEnie, I have a
lot of nostalgia for this area and the great bunch of informed gamers who
cyber-reside here.  I was happy to see that GEnie is, albeit belatedly,
finally focusing its efforts upon the core of itsr business (and having seen
the revenue figures in the past, I _know_ where GEnie's $ comes from; no
telling!).   Plus I'd hate to have to disband my AW squadron, the Carrier
Pigeons, or move to -- ouch -- Delphi.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 106       Wed Nov 08, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 12:44 EST

Milligan: The v1.1 update comes with a readme file listing the changes.  Type
'README' from the \steel directory where you have the game installed to read
about the changes in v1.1

 Matt S.
 SSI
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 107       Wed Nov 08, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 17:03 EST

Stu,

Your guess is as good as mine regarding the buildings and LOS. I've seen some
other "strange" map glitches. In the scenario that Sabre and I are playing
with Matt (SSI), I have passed the cursor over clear terrain and it seems to
indicate that buildings are in the hex. I've also driven through what appears
to be open terrain and all of a sudden "crashed" thru a bldg. Obviously the
terrain mapping and LOS still needs a LOT of work. I hope its being addressed.

Gunner,

Just curious - you said that you don't use the flamethrower assault anymore,
just satchel charges. When you hit the Z key to assault with engineering
eqpt., don't they unload with everything they've got, eg, satchels AND ft's ?

Vic,

German armor is a way of life.

Sabre,

Could that be a laundry list of the units that you have been given in our 3d
match ? If so, perhaps I should reconsider <g>. Nein ! I am an officer of the
Wehrmacht ! I will accept the task given me by OKW. Prepare to eat some Rhein
Metal ! And keep your filthy slav hands offa our frauleins !!

All,

Does anyone know which of the infantry AT weapons were superior, eg., the
bazooka, panzerschreck, panzerfaust, piat, etc... It seems, if memory serves,
that in ASL the schreck was the superior weapon.

SSI,

Any word on the next patch ?

Wolfgang


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 108       Wed Nov 08, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 19:14 EST

The panzerfaust, especially the latter versions, was easily more powerful than
any other infantry-AT weapon. There were reports that some panzerfaust impacts
penetrated BOTH SIDES of Sherman tank turrets.

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 109       Wed Nov 08, 1995
J.MOLNAR6 [Joe]              at 19:46 EST

User scenario uploaded.

        I attempted to upload a scenario I created for SP which hopefully
worked.  This was my first attempt so bear with me.  This scenario is from
page 92 of "Small Unit Actions during the German Campaign in Russia", 1953
published by the U.S. Army Center for Military History.  It is a company
action by Company C of 59th Armored Engineer Battalion on the road to
Leningrad 29 August 1941 at Volosovo against a 300+ force of Soviet infantry
attempting to disrupt the German supply line.  Company C consisted of 2 tank
platoon, 1 rocket halftrack platoon, an engineer platoon, and the HQ platoon.
During Company C's advance, they heard machine gun fire and learned from a
survivor that a truck convoy had been ambushed.  Given the importance of the
road for supplying the German advance on Leningrad, the company commander
attacked the Russian force.  In the original action, Lieutenant Schneider, the
company commander, decimated the Russian attack force with minor losses.  The
compressed scenario file is scen043a.zip.  The scenario file names will need
to be changed to an unused slot if one is already using it.
                                        -- Joseph
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 110       Wed Nov 08, 1995
J.MOLNAR6 [Joe]              at 19:56 EST

Question?

        In using the editor for SP, is there a way to eliminate unwanted
units.  For example, if I want 5 tanks for a platoon but get 7 tanks is there
a way to delete the extra 2?  I resorted to changing them into useless trucks.
On the other side, what if I want 7 tanks but only get 5.  Can I add extra
units to a platoon?  My goal is to simulate actual combat actions I came
across where the current force levels is below ideal.  Thanks.
                                -- Joseph
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 111       Wed Nov 08, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 20:39 EST

Los,

Pillboxes and bunkers do have limited covered arcs to their front, so it is
certainly safer to approach them from behind.  However, I do not it makes
satchel charge placement more effective -- only safer.  I still have yet to
see a flamethrower knock out a pillbox.  Might as well be tossing matchsticks
at them.

Gunner,

Thanks for the tips on handling Japanese pillboxes.  However, my Shermans are
usually either too occupied elsewhere or too suppressed by Japanese fir to be
able to muster 6 shots from point blank range.  Wow, you've actually knocked
out a pillbox with a flamethrower?  I wonder how I can reach that exalted
status ...

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 112       Wed Nov 08, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 22:10 EST

Anyone played the Grabner's Last Ride scenario ? I just finished it. I may
have played it a bit brash, but I got my butt kicked 448 to 130 by the Brits.
At least it wasn't Grabner's last ride, although he may have been wishing that
it was.

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 113       Wed Nov 08, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 22:19 EST

Joe,

You got half the equation right. Thats what I do when fleshing out a scenario
for play balance. Once you have purchased the forces, you can't simply add a
few tanks. If you go back to the buy screen it wipes out all that you have
already done. So I usually buy a couple of truck sections that can either
remain trucks, or become King Tigers as the need may be. IMO, another facet of
the design kit that could benefit from some tidying up.

BTW, thanks for taking the time to design and upload a homegrown. I enjoy the
homegrown scnenarios a lot and am looking forward to giving it a shot !

As far as eliminating unwanted's, I usually change them to a sniper....


SSI --- How does the "REACT" button work in the editor ? Do the units
basically sit still until their reaction turn ? Or do they move even prior to
reaction turn if objectives are taken ? A bit of clarification here would be
nice. If this works the way I hope it does, then it can be a way to simulate a
reinforcement turn by simply hiding the units in some trees *(thick ones at
that, since they don't do much in the way of LOS blockage) until they are
needed...




Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 114       Wed Nov 08, 1995
V.NEWELL [VENOM]             at 22:40 EST

        I just commaned the Germans against the Russians.  The Germans scored
1165 while the Russians scored only 1.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 115       Thu Nov 09, 1995
P.ANDRUS [Perr Dog]          at 01:16 EST

SSI or Gary,

I want to do the battle for Stonne in SP.  What can be done to create steep
bluffs that prevent all vehicle movement.  The bluffs rise 60-80 meters in
about 100m horizontal.

Are there 2 versions of the French H-39 as many of them had the M17 gun left
over from WWI.  This reference is from Doughty's excellent book on the battles
around Sedan, 1940.

Thanks,

Perr Dog
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 116       Thu Nov 09, 1995
J.RECZEK                     at 02:14 EST

In reference to a previous post, you can choose to use either just satchel
charge, or both flame thrower and satchel charge.. to use just the satchel,
you just do an assault on the pillbox from pointblank.. to use BOTH items, go
to point blank range and use the 'Attack Hex with Direct Fire' button..

 I cant imagine how hard it would be to knock out a pillbox of Japenese..
Germans no problem, they run after a while, but Japenese dont run! hehe.. BUT
HOLD ON!

 WHY!? Why are people trying to take out pillboxes? Sure if its one that is
guarding a strategic area through which you must pass, but they are just
stationary objects with a fixed CA ! Just go far right or left around them and
they are useless.. Thats what I always do (except for the time I had to  take
one out b/c it was bothering my 25pdr.)

 ALSO-- anyone having problems placing single hex gov't buildings using the
map editor??

 Jakub Reczek

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 117       Thu Nov 09, 1995
DONDO                        at 18:55 EST

Jakub:  Yep, cannot place one hex government building here either.  And we
take out pillboxes because they're there:).

Perr Dog:  Try making it rough and putting in tank traps.  Won't make it
impassable, but I don't think anyone would try it.  Course, that's exactly
what a human would do:).

Is anyone else having memory problems using the editor?  After a while it
locks up on me, after getting **really** slow [like 30 secs between mouse
click and response].  When I save and exit, the buttons for the editor then
pop up over the map, instead of getting the background screen.  Very wierd
looking.  I have to exit, and reboot to flush everything.  Is this a result of
having only 8 megs?  I dont get to upgrade til xmas, it's driving me crazy(!).

==Dondo


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 118       Thu Nov 09, 1995
DONDO                        at 19:12 EST

Ok, our latest homegrown is now available as file 10210.

==Dondo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 119       Thu Nov 09, 1995
C.LOURENCO [Los]             at 19:29 EST

Wolfgagng,

I too played Grabner's Last Ride. Didn't get to the last turn, had to split,
but the Brits won. The Germans made it to their objectives but couldn't
withstand the counter attack. Incidently, Grabner was one of the few guys in
the battalion that escaped, E&Eing off to the south with two other guys..

Reczbek makes, of course, a good point, bypassing a pillbox is the best
alternative, if at all possible, or at least keeping it's CA well smoked.

Los
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 120       Thu Nov 09, 1995
J.MOLNAR6 [Joe]              at 22:00 EST

Wolfgang,

        Thanks for the response concerning balancing forces.  I shall try that
for the next one.
                                        -- Joseph
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 121       Thu Nov 09, 1995
B.LEVERY [ORION]             at 22:04 EST

Hello Out There,
  Does anyone know how to make flamethrowers work.  I have attacked at range 1
with many flame armed units and have never seen them function. Please give a
clue.
      Orion
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 122       Thu Nov 09, 1995
J.RECZEK                     at 23:21 EST

Orion --

 I too had this problem, of flamers never going off, until I discovered that
the only way that they are used is if you use 'Attack Hex With Direct Fire'
button.. Then they are used alright!! WOW!!  Before this, my engineers were
treated like grunts and getting waxed at close ranges, NOW... **NOW** ***NO
ONE*** messes with MY engineers.. hehehe.. that is, unless they want to become
human toast :)
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 123       Thu Nov 09, 1995
S.BRITTON2 [Stu]             at 23:32 EST

Jakub,

Yes, many Japanese bunkers and pillboxes can be bypassed.  However, in a few
of the scenarios there is a bunker/pillbox combination that covers wiht
enfilade fire the only approach to the final victory hexes; to bypass them to
one side takes you away from where you need to go, to bypass them on the other
is essentially to walk right into their line of fire.  In addition, it is nice
to knock out a pillbox that is holding up the advance of other units on your
side, freeing them to maneuver.

Just played the Sugar Loaf Hill scenario last night.  Compared to Tarawa and a
couple of the others, it was a breeze.  Your troops start out not pinned with
their backs to a beach and you have a couple of turns of free maneuver before
you make contact.  That way it is easier to concentrate on one portion of the
line.  In addition, I encountered no minefields and no Japanese artillery
[strange, since Okinawa was the artillery hell of the Pacific War for our
troops].  You also get some Sherman 105s and Sherman flame tanks to play with.
I smoked the whole Japanese line on the first two turns of maneuver, made
contact on turn 3, then rolled up the Japanese line from left to right, losing
only three tanks in the process, all to Japanese AT-Hunters with pole charges.
I STILL did not knock out a single bunker or pillbox with a flamethrower, even
with a Sherman flame tank attack!  But boy, those pillboxes sure did seem to
crumple quickly from a hit by that Sherman 105.  Having infantry loaded onto
your tanks is a MUST in this scenario, however.  They fended off many ambushes
and infantry assaults, freeing the tank for point blank fire at the Japanese
position.

Stu

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 124       Thu Nov 09, 1995
D.BURDEN1 [Andy]             at 23:38 EST

Orion:
        Try attacking the hex with Direct Fire (i.e. attack the hex, not the
units).

To Anyone:
        Been playing around with this for a while now.  When I finally get an
email game going, how big will the file be that I need to transfer (roughly)?
        Andy
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 125       Fri Nov 10, 1995
DONDO                        at 01:20 EST

I must say, if one is looking for a challenge, try a long Campaign with
Japanese [Pacific].  The US equipment is so vastly superior, that one really
has to work at it.  For instance, in the other campaigns, I treat Delay
missions as all out assaults.  No reason not to.  With Japanese, you actually
have to use classic fight and fall back tactics, give ground grudgingly, and
hope you win on time rather than by wiping out the enemy. You also have to
make good use of combined arms--infantry and tanks, as the tanks just don't
have enough punch to take on the US tanks.  You need your engineers/infantry
to at least immobilize them with assaults.

Quite enjoyable, actually.

==Dondo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 126       Fri Nov 10, 1995
R.WINSLOW4 [Cho]             at 15:39 EST

 Andy,

 Re: E-mail file size, there are two and one is a puny 200 bytes while the
 other is 500K+.  However, they compress down into the area of 30K for
 up- and downloading.  FWIW, they are named "email(1or2).cmt" and
 "email(1or2).dat."
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 127       Fri Nov 10, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 17:40 EST

Perr,

Got the Villers material. Great stuff ! I've got to get a copy of this source
material myself. Who carries these titles ?

I should be able to get the scenario done sometime this weekend. I am still
not sure how to model the 2 different attack runs he made; I might just fudge
it a bit by including the other 4 tanks in an engagement that represents both
attack runs in the same scenario. Any ideas ?

From reading the various accounts, it would appear that its going to be rather
difficult to model it such that the historical outcome is achieved. I
personally think that the Stuart tank is vastly overrated in SP. Especially
its gun. I would be very surprised if Whitman is able to pull onto Rue
Clemenceau and waste three Honeys without at least being immobilized.
Apparently, Whittmann remained unbuttoned during the bulk of the battle. This
too will be unlikely, however I plan to stack the deck in his favor by giving
him and his crew experience and morale that goes through the roof.

Also, he apparently destroyed most of the lightly armored vehichles,
halftracks, Bren's, etc, with his MG-34. Not gonna happen here, so I'll
probably have to adjust ammunition accordingly. But it is still gonna be cool.
The maps you sent are VERY helpful...

As an aside, one of Whittmann's platoon was knocked out by - get this - a tank
that fired thru the first floor of 2 buildings. Apparently, he could see the
cross on one of the Tiger's turrets, so he stuck the gun through the first
window, and fired thru the second. Maybe the building LOS in SP isn't that
whacky after all <g>

Wolfgang

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 128       Sat Nov 11, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 01:43 EST

Dondo,

Yep - I've noticed that editor glitch too - seems to happen only when I zoom
or unzoom the map, though.


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 129       Sat Nov 11, 1995
V.MILAN [Vic]                at 03:48 EST

YAY!  I GOT IT!  Egghead had it, & for a decent price, amazingly enough.

Haven't actually had a chance to _play_ it yet or anything.

Where can I DL the patch?  I'd prefer to get it otherwhere than GEnie, for
reasons which must be painfully obvious to everybody.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 130       Sat Nov 11, 1995
B.MAKOWSKY [Julie&Magic]     at 06:06 EST

Andy,

Zipped down the files are about 45k

Magic
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 131       Sat Nov 11, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 11:50 EST

Wow... Friday night and Saturday morning, and only 3 new messages ???? Where
is everybody ?? Did something new get released that I am not aware of ?

Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 132       Sat Nov 11, 1995
J.KWONG1 [JohnK]             at 12:02 EST

All,
 How can I play those scenarios that you've uploaded?  I've unzipped them and
put them in the same directory as SP.  But the game wouldn't find them?  I'm
playing with the minimum amount of HD info loaded.  ie. Playing almost
exclusively off the CD.

John
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 133       Sat Nov 11, 1995
R.OLIVERE [Oly]              at 12:32 EST

John,
        Unzip them into the SCEN directory within the Steel dir. On my machine
it is C:\Steel\Scen

Oly
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 134       Sat Nov 11, 1995
LAST.RONIN [Kato]            at 13:27 EST

  Wolfgang: the fire control info is right in the unit detail! As for the 88,
what I don't understand is why the 88 AT gun has an average fire control
rating, but the flak has that laser range finder. Perhaps, to even things out
of a bit, if you're using the 88 in TD mode, you shouldn't be able to elevate
it in time to get shots off at incoming aircraft....

And okay, fine, let's accept it was as deadly a gun as the game portrays. It's
also completely unprotected. Near misses ought to suppress the hell out of the
crew in a BIG hurry.



 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 135       Sat Nov 11, 1995
R.BAUMHAUER1 [Rick]          at 14:19 EST

John - Because you did a minimal install, the installer failed to create the
"Scen" directory Oly mentioned.  Just create a directory called "Scen" inside
the "Steel" directory and put the scenarios there.

Rick
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 136       Sat Nov 11, 1995
M.MARTINO [JAY]              at 14:34 EST

Kato,
        I found that AA guns used in a direct fire role won't fire, or won't
fire as often, as when they aren't used for that. I think it has something to
do with the number of shots. If they use up their shots poking holes in T-
34s, they won't have them for smoking Shturmovikii.
        You're bang on WRT suppressing the unprotected 88s. I've found that
the best item for that is the KV-II. The 152mm shell is almost guaranteed to
kill at least one crewman unless the gun is dug in. Two shots will usually
send the crew scuttling for cover. Off-map arty murders them as well.

        Jay
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 137       Sat Nov 11, 1995
K.COOPER [GUNNER KZIN]       at 15:45 EST

Stu,

The Z key will unload with Flame and Satchel. Against a pillbox, I do a normal
assult with rifle, gernades, and satchel only. Therebey saving my Flame ammo
for JA inf in the open.

Joe,

I am working on a scenario. My roomate provided me with a good idea. I needed
3 StugIII's. I bought a section. Then I bought a single command vehicle and
later changed it to a StugIII.

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 138       Sat Nov 11, 1995
R.MCCAMMON2                  at 17:34 EST

Hello, fellow wargamers and SP fans!

 This is my first post, so please bear with me.
 Needless to say, SP is a great game!
     To Matt at SSI:

 I hope to be enjoying SP for many years to come, but the more I've played it
the more I've been bothered by the vehicle movement restrictions--or, rather,
the lack of them.

  To me, it seems real "gamey"--unfortunately--that tanks can move through
buildings, across rubble, through swamps, etc. with no threat of becoming
immobilized.
  The possibility of immobilization in such unstable terrain should be much
higher, particularly for heavy tanks. This uncertainty about whether your
vehicle was going to get "stuck" or not would add a lot of tension to the
game, and force the player to think more like a real commander. Maybe a
vehicle could be set up inside a building at the beginning of a scenario, to
allow for a "prepared position", but I really think the movement through
buildings should be more risky.

 It seems to me that a game like this ought to thrive on uncertainty and random
events, just as on the real battlefield.
  Any chance of including stone walls and hedges in the graphics mix? Or barbed
wire?
  How about a fortification level for buildings? A cave graphic for Pacific
scenarios? A horse-drawn wagon and sledge graphic? The ability to alter
visibility between 1 and 10 for night fighting?
  Well...anyway, it really is a great game. I wait anxiously to see how this
classic will be made better!

  A tip to other players: roadblocks can be created by placing a house on a road
and shattering it into rubble with the Light Damage key.

  Also, if you want your soldiers to be wearing camouflage, as in snow scenarios
and such, you can reduce their squad size to "0" in the editor.
  Camouflage paint for vehicles can be simulated by reducing the vehicle size by
"1" (or "2", maybe) in the editor.

  Good hunting!!
   Rick Mc
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 139       Sat Nov 11, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 17:35 EST

     The 3" howitzer on the Churchill I can cause an 88 crew to rout fairly
easy  at very long range too!
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 140       Sat Nov 11, 1995
M.DWYER1 [Jabo]              at 18:17 EST

Rick Mc,

Good point about becoming bogged down in bad terrain, I hope we can get this
in the future.  (HINT HINT).

All,

I just uploaded a scenario.  The file number is 10216.  It covers the US
attack on Hill 192 just north of St-Lo.  The US has an Infantry Co supported
by 4 tanks some 105s and P-47s.  The Germans have an Ifantry Co. supported by
120mm Mortars and 50mm ATs.

**********************************************************************

Note: You can add text to your scenarios by typing a scen???.txt file.  The
computer loads it and displays before you play or enter the editor.

See ya, Mike.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 141       Sat Nov 11, 1995
BC.MILLIGAN                  at 20:19 EST

Here are some post 1.1 notes, which I will preface by saying I think this game
is a masterpiece.

 1)  Sounds still drop out for me at times, as I assume they do for others.
No big deal -- just an observation.

 2)  Has anyone else noticed that if you pick an airstrike section, then
delete it (to pick a different unit, or even different aircraft) you no longer
have the option of using air units at all?  I've had this happen three times
in three attempts so far, all at Omaha Beach, where air units are critical.

 3)  After trying half a dozen times to win the above scenario (and obviously
a majority of points does not suffice; it doesn't help when your own BBs knock
out the bridge to the final set of objectives!) which although frustrating,
was fun (p.s. anybody have any suggestions?), I chose a campaign beginning in
1943.  It began with an invasion.

      I was a bit bemused to see that I began with all of my landing craft in
the middle of a snow-covered land mass.  Anyone else seen this amusing
bug?Maybe I've missed it, but it would be nice if in a sequel, cleared
minefields could be flagged, so the player is not required to remember where
it is safe to pass.


 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 142       Sat Nov 11, 1995
MO.MORGAN                    at 20:25 EST

Wolfgang,

I stay with GEnie for the same reason you do--the people who post on the RTs.

If/when GEnie goes under, the grognards will go to CompuServe--it is the most
technologically sensible network of them all (and as old as GEnie). CIS is
what GEnie SHOULD have been if they'd had their technosense going for them.

AOL is primarily composed of intellectually-light people, as you have
discovered.  And the AOL technical stuff is a nightmare--you'd think the three
stooges were making corporate technology decisions on AOL.  Their email reply
(no inbox), address book utility (?), member directory (string search), help,
etc., are all really bogus--I'd really be ashamed to let anyone know I worked
for AOL if I had a job there.

Mo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 143       Sat Nov 11, 1995
V.MILAN [Vic]                at 21:01 EST

Rick => Yeah, as Mike/Jabo says, sound points about bogging.  High ground
pressure & mechanical reliability - strain on the drive train - were the
_great_ equalizers for the giant high-powered German tanks.  By the same
token, low ground pressure & durability helped American & Soviet tanks that
lacked the punch or armor of their German foes.

===

A note for the scenario creators:  first, thanks, of course, & could you
include in the read.me or scen.txt files a note on how _big_ the damned thing
is?  [I should petition the TANKS! scenarists for this too - except a lot of
them are here, too, so....]  There are times when the world is too much with
me for me to feel like keeping track of 100 different units.

===

No unclimbable escarpment tiles for the battle map?  That could stand
rectifying, if it wouldn't be too tricky to code for.  The world is full of
slopes you can't get a tank up without a crane, & I don't think those Darby's
Rangers/Plains of Abraham feats of scaling "unclimbable" slopes to fall on
enemies from an unexpected direction generally happened on a real tactical
time scale.  If nothing else, even for elite infantry, scaling a sheer cliff
under enemy fire is going to require special rules.  So the "unpassable hex
side" option seems to make sense.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 145       Sun Nov 12, 1995
R.MCCAMMON2                  at 00:24 EST

  Hello, all.

  I forgot to mention in my last post that I think I've found a way to create
multi-level buildings--or, at least, the nearest that can be made in SP.

  Somebody else may have already tried this, but place a multi-hex government
building and then put a hill right on top of one ofthe hexes. The hill appears
beneath the building and elevates that hex.

  The height level is different from hex to hex within the same building, and
the sighting level is different, too.

  I haven't tested this in a city-fight scenario yet, but it looks interesting.

  One more thing: SSI, when all the bugs are worked out it sure would be great
to get a campaign creator.

  Good hunting!!

  Rick Mc
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 146       Sun Nov 12, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 00:35 EST

OK - it's done.... Villers-Bocage, after much dillying and dallying by myself
and Sabre.... I hope that you guys enjoy it. Remember, its VERY important that
you follow the orders to the letter in order to get the maximum enjoyment out
of this.... It's designed to be played by the German side only...

Let me know what you think,


Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 147       Sun Nov 12, 1995
J.RECZEK                     at 01:06 EST

Is SSI support still around? Just curious..

 Yes, my sound also drops at points too..

 SSI.SUPPORT--
 I have a question about difficulty setting. Which is more realistic? Hard or
Normal.. I don't want to use 'Hard' if it makes targets 'artificially' hard to
hit (in other words, it isnt realistic).. Also, what level is the computer set
to? i.e. Is it easy for the computer to hit you ?? Will hard skew the game in
its favor?  Also, any idea about an equipment specs sheet on British equipment
(like you did for Germ, USA, and USSR units) ?? I NEED to know the power of
the 2pdr, 6pdr, and the differences..

 ALL--
 What is the British answer to the German Tiger?? I just did a desert scenario
(part of a lng campg as Brits) and I got slaughtered the first time I came
across Tigers.. I cant figure out how the hell the Brits killed these things!
 The closest I can come to is the Churchill IV, but it isnt as good.... all I
ever hear is 'ping' 'ping' ping' from the Tigers .. and when they return fire,
boom boom boom (my tanks getting smoked..)

 --Jake

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 148       Sun Nov 12, 1995
D.ROBERTS57 [Wolfgang]       at 01:41 EST

Jake,

The British answer to the German Tiger is.....


The English Channel <g>

Yes - I am having sound glitches.... the main armament will fire, then no
sound for the machine guns... etc., etc....


The map glitch with the water flashing is still present...

LOS still needs to be fixed...

etc...etc...etc...

Still a good game...

Wonder where the SSI rep is ??? Is Gary still on GEnie ?? Anyone seen him on
CIS ??? Sometimes as a GENie person you feel like a red-headed step child...


Wolfgang

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 149       Sun Nov 12, 1995
J.KWONG1 [JohnK]             at 03:15 EST

All,
 Thanks for all the help.

John
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 150       Sun Nov 12, 1995
K.COOPER [GUNNER KZIN]       at 05:24 EST

I have a scenario to upload, but alladin won't do it. Can anyone assist me
here? I have double checked all aladdin settings and the file is in the proper
path.

Gunner
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 151       Sun Nov 12, 1995
L.SHARP [SABRE]              at 08:53 EST

I played Wolfgang's Wittman scenario.  It was extremely enjoyable.  It's fun
playing by the rules.  It's also fun disregarding the rules.  Although I think
people would find it difficult to win by ignoring instructions.  A definite
thumbs up on this one.

Watch out for the Fireflys.

Sabre
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 152       Sun Nov 12, 1995
J.COBB7 [bismarck]           at 11:06 EST

Jake,

I think the British answer to the Tiger was "duck and cover" until it runs out
of ammo or somebody gets a very lucky hit. Actually, the most potent British
tank was the "Firefly" (an up-gunned Sherman) but it wasn't available in the
desert.

SSI support.

There are rumors that the Japanese "long campaign" doesn't work if you start
out againnst the US instead of the Brits. Has this been reported yet? If not,
I'lll get more details from my source.

Jim Cobb
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 153       Sun Nov 12, 1995
J.COBB7 [bismarck]           at 11:47 EST

Wolfgang,

The panzerschreck was superior but expensive to make as compared to the
'faust. The bazooka's drawback was the size of the rocket. WWII bazookas were
almost next to useless against North Korean t-34s.

Jim Cobb
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 154       Sun Nov 12, 1995
D.BURDEN1 [Andy]             at 12:14 EST

To anyone:
        Does anybody out there have anything to do with the Web site that has
SP scenarios?  I've d/l all they have there, and would rather d/l the ones
people keep posting on here from the Web (access at work, _much_ faster than I
have for GEnie and free), but don't know how they could be moved from GEnie to
Web.  Any of you scenario designers have Web access and would like to send
them there as well?
                                Andy
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 155       Sun Nov 12, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 12:51 EST

BC,

        I too have sound dropouts with my SB16 card.  It seems to happen when
combat is initiated.  Maybe there is some intense number crunching...did it
hit; where did it hit; did the shell pentrate; if it penetrated what damage
did it do; anyone killed; etc.  All that processing may make demands on the
computer and the music/sound gets dropped. Just a guess.

Mike

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 156       Sun Nov 12, 1995
T.TELENKO [Trent]            at 13:50 EST


  > The British answer to the German Tiger is.....


  Fireflys -- with enough 75mm Shermans around them to let them get close.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 157       Sun Nov 12, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 16:16 EST

The answer to the Firefly is the King Tiger. I let them lead my two platoons
of armor and two platoons of infantry so they can soak up the long range
firepower of the Fireflys.

While the Tigers and Panthers get within range (which isn't that far anyway).

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 158       Sun Nov 12, 1995
J.WIRTH                      at 18:48 EST

Wolfgang,

 When I referred to partisans, I meant the Yugoslavian partisans.  After the
Germans overrun Yugoslavia in April, 1941, the Yugo-Slav forces turn into
partisans.  The partisans begin very poorly  equipped and gradually acquire
more equipment through capture and Allied covert aid.  In 1945, the
Yugoslavians "link up" with the Soviets and are then equipped and organized
along Soviet lines.

 After 1941 the Germans began phasing out their motorcycle battalions.  These
units had proven vulnerable (over 5,000 motorcycles were destroyed in the
Polish campaign alone) and had difficulty coping with the terrain of Russia
and North Africa.  Motorcycle battalions were gradually amalgamated into the
armored recon battalions during '42 and '43.  The end of 1942 was picked as a
convenient date to withdraw them from service.

 Kato,

 The 88mm AA-Gun has high powered optics and fire control equipment designed
to track aircraft.  The 88mm AT-Gun has ordinary anti-tank gun sights found on
any German towed AT-Gun.

 Jim Wirth




 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 159       Sun Nov 12, 1995
J.RECZEK                     at 19:39 EST

Well now.. the answers to my British question were interesting.. so basically
i am to lose many battles until the Firefly arrives?? Boy this is gonna suck..
Infantry attacks on them might work, but how am i gonna get infantry on the
offensive! .. hmm.. I would not have liked to encounter that tank as a Brit..
Ill just try to kill everything around it and hope i dont take too many
casulaties in the process...

 Anyone know what the 6pdr equivalent is? What is it like? Is it decent?
Penetration? What about 2pdr??

 Also, anyone wanna start another email game? I enjoy the Brits, but can be
germany if someone wants to be the allies..

 Where is ssisupport lately??

 --Jake

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 160       Sun Nov 12, 1995
J.STERN11 [JS]               at 20:10 EST

I second Rick Mc's sentiments on terrain (interesting ideas on camo and height
of buildings too). Some more serious impediments would liven things up a bit.
I'd kinda of like to see refugees crowding the roads in France, Poland, and
wherever appropriate. I'm not sure whether traffic jams are modeled or not.
Usually my vehicles can manage to zip right through each other, but I think
there may have been times when bumper to bumper traffic slowed them down.

I have sound dropouts problems too: usually during off-map 75mm arty barrages
and air attacks. Small arms fire sometimes also goes silent.

All in all a great game (the first strategic sim I've played). The more I play
it, the more I like it.

JS
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 161       Sun Nov 12, 1995
A.STATHAM [Necro JG54]       at 20:25 EST

Jake,

 >> What is the British answer to the German Tiger?? I just did a desert
scenario (part of a lng campg >>as Brits) and I got slaughtered the first time
I came across Tigers.. I cant figure out how the hell the >>Brits killed these
things!

 Looks like you had the same experience that actually occurred in WWII. (Which
shows that the game designers did a good job, remember in real life those
soldiers are dead and someone has to figure out from scratch how to deal with
the Tigers; ie...we get the benefit of experience from the safety of our
chair)

 The first actual successful solution to the "Tiger Problem" was the Hurricane
IID; equipped with 4 40mm cannons.  The success of the "Hurribox" went a long
way to solidifing Allied thinking on the role and usefulness of the tactical
fighter bomber aircraft.  Vastly improved aircraft such as the Tempest and
Typhoon played hell with the German Armor formations in France 1944.

 In games terms, at this point of the war, I would rely on Tactical Aircraft
tokill Tigers or suppress them with 25 lbs (and pray for mobility kills).

 Necromancer
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 162       Sun Nov 12, 1995
DONDO                        at 21:00 EST

Both of the new scenarios are now available as files 10215 & 10219 in Lib. 19.

==Dondo
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 163       Sun Nov 12, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 21:22 EST

Jake,
        The 6 lbr is the same as the 57mm AT gun in the US army, and the 2 lbr
is close to the 37mm AT gun. The 17 lbr was a 77mm weapon using tungsten shot
to break open the thick German armor.

As for dealing with the Tigers in North Africa, the Germans didn't really have
a lot of them there. The ones they did have were knocked out by close range 6
lbr AT guns when they attacked near the Mareth Line (or somewhere near there).

John Lansford
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 164       Sun Nov 12, 1995
C.LOURENCO [Los]             at 21:46 EST

Milligam,

I noticed a similar problem in a Rusian Campaign scenario I was playing. I was
supposed to defend against an assault, then when it came time to deploy my
forces, all my units came with barges, though I could only set up on land, and
I had one OBJ area out on the water, unreachable by my forces!

One minor problem I don't like in the Campaign is that you never get a mission
briefing before picking your support forces. ALl I get when I click on misison
is the town and date, no attack o, defend, opord or anything..


Los
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 165       Sun Nov 12, 1995
T.TREADWAY2 [Chief]          at 22:01 EST

Has anyone ever had any problems getting a scenario to load?  I'm currently
using a friend's computer, and his memory allocation lines for config.sys and
autoexec.bat are different than mine, so that may be the problem.

I can run the battle generator, but when I try to open a scenario, the program
just goes back to the main menu.  Am I doing something wrong, or is it a
memory problem?

Also, I have access to a computer without a CD ROM drive.  Has anyone ever
tried to:

        1) Copy the entire CD onto their HD.
        2) Install the game FROM the HD.
        3) Then run the game entirely from the HD.

This has worked for me with several other games that require the CD to be in
the drive.  It does require a huge amount of HD space, but speeds up play, and
enables you to forget about the CD.  I'm wondering if I should take the time
to use Lap-link to transfer the files from a desktop to my laptop.


                                        Todd
                                        Hakuna Matata!
                                        I hate CD-ROM!


PS- To all the game companies out there - it would be nice to at least have
the option of installing a CD-ROM game onto the HD and not require the CD to
be in the drive.  I'd be willing to go without all the extraneous video and
speech.  I KNOW there are people out there that agree with me on this. Since
the game companies have gone almost exclusively to CD releases, my game
purchases have DROPPED about 75%.  I know that it does help to prevent piracy,
but I for one would rather use a manual-code form of protection than have to
dig out the CD all the time.
        Here's an idea.  Give the OPTION for a minimal install as stated
above.  In this case, make the person use a manual for copy protection.  If a
person CHOOSES to use the CD while playing, they don't need the manual. At
least it gives the CONSUMER a choice.  WE are the people that are paying YOUR
salaries.  I believe that also means that if you expect us to purchase your
(otherwise) fine games, then we should be listened to.


Sorry for the soapbox, but once I got started I couldn't stop.

I HATE CD-ROM!

 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 166       Sun Nov 12, 1995
G.NORMAN5 [Gary]             at 22:02 EST

Just for info,     The v1.1 notes and readme file list both the 2&6 lbr gun
stats and the mission will tell whether it's and Advance, Assault, Delay or
Defend before buying your support.
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 167       Sun Nov 12, 1995
K.COOPER [GUNNER KZIN]       at 23:19 EST

Tiger talk:

I played a scenario where a Tiger showed up. I had 3 Shermans and a Greyhound
in the area. It was in the Bocage scenario (homemade), so I had plenty of
cover. I sent the 3 Shermans and the greyhound around the left flank of the
tiger, they were hidden from the Tiger's view. I deployed 2 infantry units on
it's right flank and within LOS of the Tiger. Meanwhile I was moving 4
Wolverines in to assist and everything else I could spare. I had just lost 2
Shermans to a platoon of StugIIIg's. I was very concerned when I saw the
Tiger. Only question left was how many Tiger's were there.

I got everyone into position. The known Tiger was heading toward the infantry
who had called for an airstrike which was 0 turns out. I didn't want to lose
my spotter, so I sent my Greyhound at the tiger's rear. I was moving about 5
hexes above the Tiger when a second tiger opened up on my greyhound. OH S**t I
thought, but the Tiger missed. I decided to shoot at the 1st Tiger with my
Greyhound from 5 hexes out. The first Greyhound shot missed and so did the
second Tiger's shot. My Greyhound then scored an imobilizing hit on the 1st
Tiger and it buttoned up! Yehaw I says :). My airstrike came in and killed
Tiger # 1. The 2nd Tiger routed and ran out into the open where my Greyhound
came up point blank on it's rear and killed it in 3 shots.

Two dead Tiger's to a scratched up Greyhound, who would ever firgure an
outcome like that?

For those not familar with the Greyhound, it's a recon unit.

Gunner
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 169       Mon Nov 13, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 06:22 EST

Gunner,
        There was a true story in WWII where a Greyhound ambushed a Tiger
moving down the road. The armored car sped out of the woods and raced up the
road behind the moving Tiger, which stopped and began traversing the turret.

However, the turret traverse for the Tiger was so slow it couldn't catch up.
The Greyhound closed to within 50 yards and disabled the Tiger with shots to
the engine compartment.

John Lansford
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 170       Mon Nov 13, 1995
BC.MILLIGAN                  at 10:31 EST

THE BRITISH ANSWER TO THE TIGER
 ===================================
 ( a conversation between two British officers prior to D-Day, taken from the
book "Words on War")

      "The Panther can slice through a Churchill like butter from a mile
away."
      "And how does a Churchill get a Panther?"
      "It creeps up on it.  When it reaches close quarters, the gunner tries
to bounce a shot off the underside of the Panther's gun mantlet.  If he's
lucky, it goes through a piece of thin armour above the driver's head."
      "Has anybody every done it?"
      "Yes.  Davis in 'C' Squadron.  He's back with headquarters now trying to
recover his nerve."
      "What's next on the list?"
      "Tigers.  The Tiger can get you from a mile and a half."
      "And how does a Churchill get a Tiger?"
      It's supposed to get within 200 yards and put a shot through the
periscope."
      "Has anyone ever done it?"
      "No."


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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 171       Mon Nov 13, 1995
C.SCHILLING [Curt]           at 13:56 EST

        Guys,
        Haven't posted here for awhile but I wanted to ask you guys
        a few questions.
        1)What library is the patch in and what number is the file??
        2)Do I wonload it zipped and then unzip it in the SP
        directury??
        3)I did the full install so do I have to do anything special
        to get these scenarios??
        4)Lastly where were the scenarios uploaded to and how do I
        download these??
        Thanks in advance
        Curt
        P.S. Didn't play alot after the initial couple of playings. Too
        many LOS bugs and other little details that kept popping up.
        Like starting with my tanks in the water, Gun crews entering a
        scenario in the campaign with no gun adn all that!!
        P.S.S. I have been following the Topic though, is there anything
        I should know about that has come up in the last few weeks??

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 172       Mon Nov 13, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 14:23 EST

JS...

        Two vechicles stacked together will block a road, probably also any
two active units in one hex.  Wrecks don't seem to count as blocking a hex,
but two vehicles and a wreck will do so.  So you can't move any unit into or
thru a hex that has two other units in it already.



Los,

        When you are in the "Buy support units" screen you will see a small
red box in the lower right entitled "MISSION".  It tells you what type of
mission you are facing:  assault, advance, delay, etc.  So you can get some
idea, but no look at the terrain you will be facing.  That is some help, but
could sometimes wish for more <g>.



Mike

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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 173       Mon Nov 13, 1995
M.BRUHA1 [Mike]              at 14:44 EST

Curt,

        DEon't remember the patch file number.  I dearch ALL libraries when I
look for new files.  I use Aladdin 1.72 to do the search.  It makes a list of
the new files which I can select off-line, and you can log back on to retreive
the one's you marked for downloading from the file list.

        The new scenarios are the the 10200's in file numbers.  Scan ALL
libraries from about file # 10150 and beyond.  Aladdin prompts we for a file
name for each file I download, like c:\aladdin\mail....   I just insert the
appropriate filename on the end of the above prompted string, like BOCAGE.ZIP
if that is the name of the file or what I want to call it. Aladdin then marks
the file for download as C:\aladdin\mail\BOCAGE.zip.
 I keep a copy of PKUNZIP in the C:\aladdin|mail directory.  I can unzip those
files in that directory, then archive the *.zip files to a floppy for storage
and the unzipped files get moved to the c:\steel\scen directory. You can use
whatever method you prefer for moving those files around. Personally, I use
WIN95 or PCTOOLS.

        The scenarios are usually zipped.  They need to be unzipped and moved
into your c:\steel\scen directory ( or whereever you have your scenarios
stored.  Hope this helps.  If you don't have Aladdin, you can search the
libraries for the keywords STEEL PANTHERS, etc.  Don't use "SP" <VVBG>!  You
will get ANY file or description that as the letters SP in it, like
SpellJammer, Spock, aspect, etc.  I know from bitter experience!


Mike


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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 174       Mon Nov 13, 1995
J.LANSFORD [John]            at 19:01 EST

I would like to see some number of wrecks actually block vehicular movement
through that hex. It happened at Arnhem as well as other places. At least
increase movement through the hex (removing the road bonus, perhaps).

The way Panzer Leader did it was very believable. Wrecks counted toward the
stacking limit for the hex, so if you had 3 wrecks in the hex only one living
unit could climb in there with them. Of course, you couldn't put more than 3
wrecks in a hex, though....

John Lansford
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 175       Mon Nov 13, 1995
SSI.SUPPORT                  at 21:25 EST

Wolfgang: the word is this: the next update will be out before Xmas.  Gary is
working on it, our internal programmer will be working with him to get this
thing out, but we will not push it out quickly as we did with the v1.1 (which
was a quick fix to stomp all of the big bugs)
 Regarding React: I do not know.  I'll try to find out for you (or Gary will
answer, whichever).

 Dondo: It may be, I'm not sure that I have a handle on that bug yet.  Send
autoexec.bat and config.sys files with a description of the problem, and I
will see what I can see.

 Orion: Use the 'Z' key to attack a hex to use flamethrowers.

 Andy: E-mail files start at 500k or so, and shrink to 25k or so using Pkzip
or Arj.

 Vic: Since you asked, the update is also available on America Online,
Compuserve, SSI's BBS, and SSI's Canadian BBS.  The numbers are in the data
card (What, read the docs?? :))

 R.MCCAMMON2: While I definitely don't agree with you, you can be _assured_
that at least one of the designers is reading this sub, and if he agrees with
you, I'm sure he'll change it.  Of course, then the AI would be quite weak as
it's tanks became immobilized all over the board from running through
terrain...Thanks for letting us know how you feel.

 BC Milligan:1) I've seen the sound thing too, we'll work on it, but I don't
have much hope since it happens across many different systems, but none with
regularity.  Probably a new bug in the new (John Miles) AIL (Audio Interface
Library).  2) The number of available airstrikes are random (based on some
serious calculations) don't delete them and they won't do that (the game
cannot keep this information in memory during setup, game limitation. Get used
to it).

 Vic: Re unpassable things.  SP is based on what happened in most cases,
special cases (such as this, or people taking control of enemy equipment)
cannot be compensated for in this design.

 Jake: realistic is relative.  Which setting (hard or Normal) do you prefer?
I believe that hard is more realistic relative to WWII.  On the regular
setting, I often hit units while moving, my (VERY limited) understanding of
WWII is that this was rare.  Perhaps Gary or Jim Wirth can elaborate on this
point. (I guess the short answer is "I don't know" sorry...)  (The Brits
answer to the Tiger was to be destroyed by it, hehe)

 Wolf: Sorry I've been away for a few days, Interface problems combined
covering for some sick workers last week limited the time I could spend here.
I'm back everyday (unless this flu doesn't go away:)

 K.Cooper: Sorry, I use the Windows interface.

 Jim Cobb: I've not heard that bug in the Japanese campaign (I know about the
troops appearing in the water).  Please send all the info you've got. (email)

 J.Reczec: We'll have more gun/penetration stats in v1.2.  If I get them
sooner, you can be assured that they will be appended to the old charts and
uploaded. (I'd also be glad to play a slow-paced (1 turn every day or two)
game of SP, e-mail me if interested I like the Germans).

 LOS: We're working on the 'barge'problem for v1.2as well as attempting to
give the user either a view of the map, or more info before the mission (no
promises, but we are looking into it).

 Chief: Usually this is an indication that your CD is not in the drive, or
that your CD drivers are not loading.  Also is the possibility that your
system setup is, (looking for the technical term...) messy.  Send autoexec.bat
and config.sys files to me in e-mail with a decription of the problem, and
I'll do what I can.
 We are not discussing whether the game can be run without the CD.  It's
possible that there is a method, but it's nothing I'm going to tell you about.
For now, assume that you need the CD for the benefit of anyone listening who's
tempted to play the game without paying for it (I.E. copying a friend's CD or
whatever).

 Curt: Search the SSI library for 'Steel Panthers'.  Read the instructions
I've provided for installation.

 John: I don't know that that's possible with this engine, as you can see,
wrecks are not counted as units...

 Matt S.
 SSI
 ------------
Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 176       Mon Nov 13, 1995
S.DEMONTE1                   at 22:33 EST

Jim,

 It appears to me that the artillery in SP seems VERY  weak against soft
targets in the clear and not entrenched. I've tried dozens of scenarios
playing both sides and used all sizes 105mm-150mm and they don't really cause
much suppression or soft target damage, and I have saturated areas with it.
Once, I have seen a light tank lose a track. I don't expect much if any hard
target damage, but shouldn' it cause more suppression than it does? I know the
Russians in the last offensives had over 500 guns & rockets per mile on their
front lines and that they would totally destroy everything in their killing
zones. Shouldn't the bigger guns 132-150 do more damage & saturation or am I
off the mark. It seems they are only good for smoke. Thanks for the replys....

                  Scott



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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 177       Mon Nov 13, 1995
L.SHARP [SABRE]              at 23:05 EST

SSI, Matt,

Did you get our last turn?  Inquiring Russian minds want to know.

Col. Sabresky  (sheeesh I'm a General in the Mega WIR topic) <g>
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Category 25,  Topic 24
Message 178       Mon Nov 13, 1995
L.MICKLUS [Lance]            at 23:52 EST

The file name for the upgrade is STEEL11.EXE. Just go into the library, select
download, enter STEEL11.EXE instead of a file number. Then, follow the
instructions from there.

I just installed the 1.1 patch tonight. One wish, when you save a game, and
click on a slot, there's no way to change your mind and abort the save (like
ESC). It would be nice to be able to bail out in case you picked the wrong
slot and don't want to delete or write over another slot.

- from the Green Mountains of Vermont, Lance
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