From: johnson@ferret.cig.mot.com (Brad Johnson) Subject: [SUCCESSORS] Leader analysis I haven't yet been able to play AH's new Successors, but I have a game planned for next weekend, and I've been trying to analyze the initial game position a bit. My first hypothesis was that some generals (or pairs of generals) look like they'd be MUCH more powerful than others. Can anyone say if this is true? Do any pairs of generals represent such a threat that they must be beaten down from the very beginning to prevent them from winning? For reference, I decided to create a little table comparing all the relevant values. (I've included the non-primary generals too, just for completeness.) Avg Name Rank Initiative Battle Score Legitimacy VP Fleets --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Antigonus (1) 1 2 4 5 0 3 0 Antipater (2) 3 4/2 3/2 5/4 (3) 2 3 1 Craterus 3 4 4 6 (3) 0 (4) 3 0 (9) Demetrius 1 2 2 - - - - Eumenes 1 3 4 3 - (5) - - Leonnatus 2 2 3 5 0 3 (7) 0 Lysimachus 2 3 4 4 0 2 (7) 0 Peithon 2 3 3 4 0 2 (8) 0 Perdiccas 3 3 3 7 (3) 6 (6) 4 (8) 0 Ptolemy 2 4 3 4 1 (4) 6 1 Seleucus 2 2 3 2 - - - Name, Rank, Initiative, and Battle represent the fixed attributes of the general. (Note that Antipater has two different ratings. The numbers after the slash are for Cassander after Antipater dies.) Avg Score represents the average expected battle score that the general would get with his starting forces. This is a rating of his overall initial battle ability, including starting forces and personal battle rating. This always assumes no surprises, and will of course change as CUs are lost or gained. Legitimacy, VP and Fleets represent how many of those points the general controls at the start of play. Notes (in parenthesis above) ---------------------------- (1) Automatically gains Demetrius when available. (2) Converts to Cassander after death. Use values after slash. (3) Assumes opponent has lower legitimacy. (4) +2 prestige. (5) -2 prestige. (6) Also begins the game with control of Alexander's body, giving ready access to 2 more legitimacy points. (7) Controls two-fifths of requirement for Hellespont victory points (2). (8) Controls treasure city. (9) Controls Cilicia, one half of requirement for Asia Minor fleet. Some random hypotheses and questions: It seems to me that whoever is dealt Ptolemy will definitely be the initial usurper. Perdiccas seems to be far and away the "best" general to get, assuming you want to try going for the win quickly. Given his battle strength, it seems as if he should have a respectable chance of getting Alexander's body through to Pella. His greatest fear would be the various Tyche cards that can mess him up: Steal Alexander's body, anti-elephant devices, and most frightening, the Voice of Command (or whatever it's called). Still, if Perdiccas is paired with, say, Antigonus, the path to Pella could be paved through Asia Minor. Unless you bury Alexander's body in Pella, it seems as if there's no real way to get the automatic legitimacy point victory, and even then, it requires a marriage and an heir. If Perdiccas defends in Babylon and just does the quick burial on turn 2, it would seem no one's going to win by legitimacy alone. Is this true? Has anyone successfully won on legitimacy? If I've calculated correctly, there are 105 different ways to create 4 pairs out of 8 different generals. Of these, the following pairings seem immediately notable: - Perdiccas and Craterus have the highest maximum initial strength - Perdiccas and Antipater have the highest initial legitimacy - Ptolemy and Perdiccas have the highest initial VPs - Ptolemy and Antipater have an early naval superiority What other pairings have more subtle advantages? Later, Brad (johnson@cig.mot.com) From: Wray Ferrell Subject: Re: [SUCCESSORS] Leader analysis Brad Johnson wrote: > For reference, I decided to create a little table comparing all > the relevant values. (I've included the non-primary generals too, > just for completeness.) Can always count on Brad for a nice chart :) Your battle chart forHannibal has become worn out. Maybe you could repost that. Anyway, I digress. > It seems to me that whoever is dealt Ptolemy will definitely be > the initial usurper. That is correct. His drawback is his 4 Initiative rating. He tendsto crawl around the board for the privlege of those 6 vps. > Perdiccas seems to be far and away the "best" general to get, assuming > you want to try going for the win quickly. Given his battle strength, > it seems as if he should have a respectable chance of getting > Alexander's body through to Pella. _Very_ tough to do and quite a gamble. The other player's will quicklysee what you are upto and should call a truce to stop you. In addition, you can count on Peithon to "wander" into Babylon while you are gone. Of course you can leave a minor general and some troops behind, but that just depletes your army. > Unless you bury Alexander's body in Pella, it seems as if there's > no real way to get the automatic legitimacy point victory, and even > then, it requires a marriage and an heir. If Perdiccas defends in > Babylon and just does the quick burial on turn 2, it would seem no > one's going to win by legitimacy alone. Is this true? Has anyone > successfully won on legitimacy? I have not won on legitimacy alone, but I have buried Alexander's bodyand let Alex IV come of age to win. If the game goes five turns, the winner is who has the most victory points. If an hier is allowed to come of age, the winner is the highest total of legitimacy and vps. That, imo, is why Perdiccas is such a nice general. On general pairs, it is nice to have two generals that can support each other. They can start the game side by side or you can carve a path of your garrisons between them. Wray From: sjakos@aol.com (Sjakos) Subject: Re: [SUCCESSORS] Leader analysis Brad writes: > My first hypothesis >was that some generals (or pairs of generals) look like they'd >be MUCH more powerful than others. Can anyone say if this >is true? Do any pairs of generals represent such a threat that >they must be beaten down from the very beginning to prevent >them from winning? Of the 28 possible factions, the consensus here was that Ptolemy (Egypt) and Antipater (Macedonia) looked too powerful to leave alone, what with two fleets (worth 4 VPs, at least at first) and the 8 VPs for Greece and Rhodes in between their own 9 VPs. But Ptolemy's faction will always be the Usurper at the beginning, Greece isn't a walkover, and the strength of any one combination depends very much on how the others line up. Ptolemy and Antipater don't look quite as strong, for example, if Lysimachus (Thrace) and Leonnatus (Hellespontine) are also an opening pair. So many openings and possibilities--too soon to tell with our limited experience. >Some random hypotheses and questions: > >It seems to me that whoever is dealt Ptolemy will definitely be >the initial usurper. Correct. >Perdiccas seems to be far and away the "best" general to get, assuming >you want to try going for the win quickly. Given his battle strength, >it seems as if he should have a respectable chance of getting Alexander's >body through to Pella. It looks like a long shot. It's impossible to get a Legitimacy Automatic Victory without burying the body in Pella. You can't move the body on turn 1, and it gets buried automatically before turn 4--you have two turns to make the march. Everyone notices, and everyone understands the implications. You just might do it, but the time you spend will be time NOT spent building and maintaining a VP empire, so if you fail. . . >Unless you bury Alexander's body in Pella, it seems as if there's >no real way to get the automatic legitimacy point victory, and even >then, it requires a marriage and an heir. If Perdiccas defends in >Babylon and just does the quick burial on turn 2, it would seem no >one's going to win by legitimacy alone. Is this true? Has anyone >successfully won on legitimacy? True--it's not possible to get to 18 without the 10 for burying Alex in the family plot in Pella. But saving Legitimacy and playing for the Coming of Age of Heracles or Alexander IV is a very viable path. >If I've calculated correctly, there are 105 different ways to create >4 pairs out of 8 different generals. Of these, the following pairings >seem immediately notable: > - Perdiccas and Craterus have the highest maximum initial strength > - Perdiccas and Antipater have the highest initial legitimacy > - Ptolemy and Perdiccas have the highest initial VPs > - Ptolemy and Antipater have an early naval superiority > >What other pairings have more subtle advantages? - Ptolemy and Antipater have the Largest Fleet, and so actually have more initial VPs (13) than Ptolemy and Perdiccas (10). -Leonnatus and Antipater would start with as much Legitimacy asPerdiccas and Antipater I think (unless I'm forgetting something). - Leonnatus and Lysimachus Control the Hellespont. - Any pair of 2 VP generals has a good shot at determining the Turn 1 Order. I THINK going first is usually the correct answer, though making the Usurper go last could be the right thing to do in some cases. Or I could be completely wrong (I've only played a couple times). But I've tried going last from the weak opening, and it tasted terrible--got crowded too easily and too early by other players' garrisons. Kos Visit the Krieg! Home Page at: [http://members.aol.com/alanemrich/krieg-hp.htm] From: sjakos@aol.com (Sjakos) Subject: Re: [SUCCESSORS] Leader analysis I wrote: > It's impossible to get a Legitimacy Automatic >Victory without burying the body in Pella. My mistake. There are a couple other combinations that work if you don't give up your Champion status (lost by attacking someone other than the Usurper). As Brad said, Perdiccas and Antipater are a potent opening faction in Legitimacy terms (forgot that Perdiccas also starts with Alex IV in tow). Perdiccas can bury Alex right there in Babylon (you can bury before the cart is ready according to the designer, and there's nothing in the rules that says otherwise)--all they need then is a wife and mother-in-law, so you need to be careful if you see this faction appear in the opening draw. Gotta remember to look at the cards and charts before I post. Kos Visit the Krieg! Home Page at: [http://members.aol.com/alanemrich/krieg-hp.htm]