From: OHara Walter Subject: East Front Tank Commander Puzzlements-- Need Help. I played my *second* game versus a real live human bean here at the job during yesterday's lunch hour. Fellow CONSIM lurker Dave Markley and I are developing a taste for this great card game. Hey, if I play it versus a human only 5 more times, I'll recoup what my wife invested in it back in entertainment value. Playing solo doesn't seem to count for some reason. We used the standard-for-a-lunch-hour quick terrain setup (see previous messages) which yielded a mix of wheat, woods and walls on Dave's side of the board, wheat, walls, and a village on my side of the board. We also used the mixed "half tanks/half non-tanks" rule which works nicely. Most of my terrain cards were flipped in my first rank, giving a nice chance to maneuver using hidden movement. I deployed an 85mm AT gun forward in the center (position H), left the right hanging open (position I), and deployed a guards unit with an ATR in the wheatfield to my left (position G). A platoon of T-34s were in the rear rank (position L) to plug holes where they would inevitably develop. I had A mine dog, A rocket barrage, a JSU-152, a KV-1, and another 85mm AT gun in reserve. See the diagram. A B C D E F G H I J K L Dave deployed a Pak 40 and Veteran infantry in position E (in woods). He also had a PzJg 38 in position D, protected by woods. He had a JGPz IV, PzKW Vg and a couple of IIIs in his back rank to start. I know he had a mechanized SS squad with Panzershreck as well as German Rocket Artillery in reserve, because he showed me this during at the end of the game. Play commenced with me having the advantage. I fired the ATR rifle at the PzJg 38 in the woods in position D (short range, in cover). We immediately got into a "discussion" as to how to employ the ATR correctly. Does the ATR fire by itself, or can the Guards unit add its native AT capability to the ATR during the attack? We couldn't figure this one out in the rules, and it was academic, anyway. Those ATRs suck, they can hit but they can't penetrate anything. Guess it comes with the territory. Anyway, a much more serious "discussion" ensued when the PzJg 38 decided to fire High Explosive (HE) back. As some of you know, cards have ratings for HE in a yellow box on the right hand side of the card. The RULES say: "To fire HE, select a firing card and target card, then roll a TO HIT roll for the firing card. If the shot hits, the card is killed." Well, what is the HE rating on the card for, then? You never use that factor in the combat! If you were instructed to roll against the HE number, this would make sense. Is that what was originally intended? In any event, using the system as written, Dave wiped out my Guards unit and ATR (the rules are clear: no captured enemy equipment in this game). I fired back with my 85mm AT gun, and got the PzJg38. At this point, I was holding the line with only a solitary AT gun, so I moved forward the T-34 platoon. The Pak-40 took out my toughest tank, the T-34/85. It had to pay for that, so I fired the remaining T-34 M4 at it using the (hopefully, correct) HE rules. I killed the gun. Dave brought forward the JgPzIV (70v), and that looked grim, seeing how good the stats are on that vehicle. I gambled, and threw in the Rocket Artillery strike at that stack in the center (Position E). I rolled an 8, so the barrage stayed fixed in place. Then I rolled a 4, which kills tanks AND infantry. Which led to a question. Do I roll (or pick a random #) for EACH unit in the position, or do I do it only once? The card didn't say. In any event, we interperted the card to mean that I knocked out anything in the position in one blow. Dave responded by knocking out my JSU-152, brought up from the reserves. It got to be 1:00, so we called the game a draw at that point. Final score: Walt Dave Pak 40 T34/85 PzJg 38 85mm AT JgPzIV (70v) ATR Veteran Inf Guards Pzkw V g JSU-152 If the game had continued, I think I might have pulled off the clear cut victory, because Dave had less potent units in reserve than I did, and I still had the dreaded MINE DOG to play! Now, the game discussions focused on some questions I'd like an opinion on: How, exactly, is HE fire handled? What is the number in the little yellow box? How is it used? Do you combine ATR fire with the inf unit using the equipment? Why does an AT gun have a Small Arms value? Is the armor penetration factor on the ATR mislabeled? Dave was concerned that guns with similar calibers have very different HE factors. The weight of the charge is the same, isn't it? Walt From: "William E. Alderman" Subject: Re: East Front Tank Commander Puzzlements-- Need Help. On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:25:50 -0400 (EDT), jtd4@cornell.edu (John Desch) wrote: Walt writes: >Now, the game discussions focused on some questions I'd like an opinion >on: > >How, exactly, is HE fire handled? What is the number in the little >yellow box? How is it used? It is not explained in the rules, and I forwarded your post to Ulrich for official commentary. I seem to recall that the HE value is the one to use when firing HE. The "To Hit" box is for anti-tank fire only. Otherwise I think soft targets are too easy to kill. > >Do you combine ATR fire with the inf unit using the equipment? It should be separately conducted. ATRs weren't as a general rule very effective. >>Why does an AT gun have a Small Arms value? This represents the machineguns or small arms available to the crew. Of course if you have HE capability, why fool around with the little stuff. ;-) Again, the rules lack clarity on the subject. >Is the armor penetration factor on the ATR mislabeled? Possibly. I don't have my cards handy. What are those values? >Dave was concerned that guns with similar calibers have very different >HE factors. The weight of the charge is the same, isn't it? Some guns have greater explosive capability than others of the same caliber. For example, as Jim O'Neil will tell you, the Sherman's 75mm gun was much more effective against soft targets than the 76mm gun -- one of the reasons the Army was slow to convert. But please give me specifics and I'll try to address them. I'm really glad you're enjoying TC, and am truly sorry that you play has been impeded by these nagging rules questions. Keep your feedback coming, Walt. :-) John T. Desch jtd4@cornell.edu (607)255-5014