john Halvonik - 03:30pm Mar 17, 1999 PST (#463 of 486) [ Mark ] "All the world's outcomes are a bell shaped curve and we are merely DRMs upon it." Kingdom for a Horse: Historical Play through. Here is the play through of Berg's game I have long been promising (or threating). The battle is Bosworth fought in 1485 between Henry Tudor, Lancastrian side ("L") and Richard III, Yorkist side ("Y"). We played the game with all the rules and this was our first full run through. We had earlier practiced moving the vans, etc. but we did not play with all the troops so that we had no well rehearsed strategies or well practiced tactics. The idea was to keep it very fresh and be guided simply by intuition, any mistakes we made would be just that. Anyhow, I hope to shed light on some of the interesting tactics and the feel for the game which I think is a nice effort for a game that is simple and fun. At the start there are, IIRC, 24 Yorkist and 26 Lancastrian units, not counting leader units. The Stanleys are a neutral contingent of about 10 or 12 units and may appear for either side (we played they enter from north edge). Their chances at start are 10% activating for L side and 0% for Y side. This % will change up or down in increments of 10% every time one side or the other has "killed" (elminated) 2 units more than the other. (leader deaths also effect this) NorthUmberland (NoU) is in Richard's rear with a strong contingent and starts the game w/ a 10% chance of an initial activation if and when Richard attempts this. NoU's chances of initial activation improve with how Richard fares on the battlefield, similar to Stanley. Also his chances of successive activations after the intial activation improve gradually with each successive activation so assuming he is successfully activated the first time, it's 20% for the next time, 30% after that etc. At start Richard has a long front line of primarly archers under Oxford extending from western side of Ambion hill (Y right flank) across the SW and south face of ambion ill and up to the marsh on the left. Surrey is behind this with several cav and 4 gunpowder units (2 canno, 2 hand gunners). Richard has a powerful contingent of horse and infantry with high morale a little further behind them and are not yet on the hill. We made one simplification to the victory conditions. First one to get 20 "killed" (eliminated) units wins or first one to kill the other leader. This is very simple and you don't have to worry about a lousy die roll ending the thing without a true knock down, drag out finish. Later, we made one more amendment, to be discussed below. Narrative. Henry's van left Atherstone, well before sunrise and approached the crossing of the River Sence near the historical point. By sunrise Henry's forces were deployed in front of the ford (Ed note: This was a good thing, since that is where the game rules say they must start!). Similar to Richard, Henry has a line of archers under Norfolk arrayed in the front. Henry has a small contingent of mostly horse and one infantry on the L left near the ford. Contingents of mostly infantry are on the flanks. Talcott has mostly levies low morale and Savage has the very tough Welsh infantry on the other flank. Oxford's (Y) archers on the more open Y right flank managed to move forward and obtain good firing positions at the front of Ambion. Talcott's men are being careful to keep out of range. Richard's tip: "ye've got to post up with thine archers, man. Get thee onto high ground at 2 or 3 hex range, the enemy missile shooters cannot RETURN FIRE on you from up here." Rules note: you can't fire up at a higher elevation. This includes return fire and phasing fire, hence Richard's tip a fine one. Talcott's attack. 8:30 AM. Eventually Talcott's men sweep up out of the mists and land a perfect left hook right on the right flank of Norfolk's archers and avoid any reaction fire by this maneuvre. "wow so much for the vaunted Y archers we heard so much about. After all the talk, this was tantamount to Buster Douglas landing a good one on Mike Tyson." Note: Reaction fire only occurs in the front two hexes of each archer, when oxford extended his line forward and to the right, this left some archer units with exposed flanks, i.e. no one adjacent to them because of the separation. This attack bogs down after getting in some hits (disorg result) on the archers and some cavalry that had been sent by Richard and were just getting into place on the extreme Y right flank when the attack commenced.. Henry sends word to Talcott through a messenger. "You've got stick and move man. Once you lock onto the enemy infantry you can then wheel away from them and hit them with flank and rear attacks. Enemy infantry have no ZOC (unlike missile shooters and cav) so once you engage you can keep moving and attacking." That is if you are lucky enough to activate again. Note: the activation system is based on % of activation which varies by commander. to be continued ------------------------- Richard H. Berg - 04:17am Mar 18, 1999 PST (#464 of 486) [ Mark ] So far, JH, very interesting . . .when does Henry get to bite Richard's ear? Or was that Jenkin's Ear? RHB ------------------------- Edward Sabatine - 06:56am Mar 18, 1999 PST (#465 of 486) [ Mark ] This is exactly how one should right a game replay. Others should take note. Too many game replays here assume the audience knows the rules, or worse, that they actually have the game laid out somewhere and are using the replay to move the pieces. ------------------------- Richard Simon - 10:35am Mar 18, 1999 PST (#466 of 486) [ Mark ] I Still Miss My Ex...........................But My Aim is Improving!! This is exactly how one should right a game replay. I think you only need to do that when it's gone wrong ------------------------- john Halvonik - 12:37pm Mar 18, 1999 PST (#467 of 486) [ Mark ] "All the world's outcomes are a bell shaped curve and we are merely DRMs upon it." Richard's counterattack 10 AM. The resulting wheeling about between Talcott's inf and Norf. archers and Surreys foot on the north face of Ambion looked like a dog chasing his tail (as Henry says "stick them in front and move onto the flanks") Elsewhere, archers on both sides engage in long range (3 hex) sniping all along the line, a few are hit. Henry's hot tip: "Ye often have to expose thine flank in order to land a punch. This is because by rule, thou hast to attack well nigh everyone in thine front, by changing thine facing thou shalt maketh a 1;1 attack instead of 1:2, but this will expose ye to a counter attack on thine flank. Get thee some infantry to cover thine flank, en echelon." Ed note: Infantry units need to hit the enemy in flank to get significant DRM but they often have to turn to do this. That is because they MUST ATTACK everyone in their front hexes, by turning their flank they don't have to attack the support infantry. I.e. they can make a 1:1 flank attack instead of a 1:2 attack. Hence they expose their own flanks in turn. Talcotts infantry manages to hit one of Richard's cavalry with a surround attack thus ensuring its destruction. (note: only missile shooters can retreat through friendly units, Richard's horse were pinned by their own troops), Surrey's cavalry execute a charge down the north face of Ambion Hill to eliminate one of Talcott's disorg infantry. This leaves Talcott with 3 infantry on the north side of Ambion and isolated from the main line, the closest part of the main line to Talcott is west of Ambion hilll. Eventually the Y archers on the hill, managed to wound 2 of Talcots inf. and finally Richard's hard charging cavalry came on to hit their front and then pitch into their flanks, eliminating 2 more of them. tip: Richard's cavalry moves are taking place over a series of activations, but all in one turn. That is: to keep the turn alive, Richard must successfully roll for iniative, a % roll based on the commander/van that he choses, note: the first activation of a turn is free. Thus, Richard activated himself first (automatic) his cavalry charging the enemy front, he then chose oxford for the next activation (oxford = 60% chance to activate) keeping the turn alive. He was then able to activate himself again and so work the cavalry around the inf onto their flanks. It is a good strategy then to activate one of the lower activating vans first (since that's auto) and save the easier to activate Oxford (Y) or Norfolk (L) for the second activation since this inreases the chances of activating 2 or 3 times or more in one turn. If you go w/ Oxford first, then you've only got a 30 or 40% chance (w/ surrey, savage etc) of making the second activation, and less chance of keeping the turn alive w/ several activations in a row. Note: the first hit from an archer will always be a "disorg" result, other attacks usually will be a disorg on the first hit and rarely a rout. Note that disorg units are for the most part still just as good on the attack. A disorg archer is equally effective at shooting. a disorg infantry has a minor DRM (IIRC) on attack, and a disorg cavalry cannot charge. The idea is to take some hits (disorg) at first in order to get close and minimize the effect of archers. It's like an entry cost. Henry will pay in the form of hits, at first in order to get a long term return Oxford's attack. Time Unknown. Not wishing to miss the excitement generated on the L left, Oxford decided to move to the left of center behind his line of archers in order to support Talbott's attack. Gathering together his own infantry and some archers he managed to get a toe hold in the right center (west side of Ambion) after Talcott's attack thorougly isorganzied the line of archers. Oxford recalled the event in his memoirs (Tudor Press, 1497): "..the Crookbak'd archers on their right became stretched to cover an assault from that flank, This left one or two units isolated and ripe for our plucking. Both their flanks now as nak'd as a strumpet, we went to avoid contact with their fronts of the archers whilst getting in some flank attacks ourselves. Eventually we were left locked up with some archers. The enemy foot rushing to attack us from both sides, yet they actually shielded us from the deadly missile fire as thy enemy could not shoot over their heads..." Eventually one unit remained with Oxford on the hill, surrounded by the enemy. His position more reminsicent of that of AB Wright at Cemetary hill than a medieval officer. This unit too was destroyed by archer fire and Oxford had to make a daring run for it down the hill and back to his own lines. Note: officer casualties are tied to a die roll with a DRM based on the CRT result of the unit. Since the last unit was routed, Oxford had a 40% chance of being hors de combat, surviving the die roll, he is allowed to move 6 hexes (IIRC) back toward a friendly unit. As Oxford retreated he was met by Henry: "Good god man, ye have got to bewar of missile shooters when tis their phase. They can change facing freely as they will at such times and will simply find a clear field of fire if you are not screened by enemy." Oxford's reply was unprintable. Tip: by engaging the isolated archers Ox. was able to minimize the fire from the rest of the line of archers, at least for a time. For one thing, the archers he was locked up with were at one end of the main line of archers, even if the archers rotated when it was their turn only that archer on the end could hit them, the rest wsre screened off by LOS. Also the enemy inf. attack blocked LOS for a time. Note as Henry does that when it's their turn archers can rotate and fire in the same turn, they can't move and fire though. ------------------------- john Halvonik - 01:28pm Mar 19, 1999 PST (#480 of 486) [ Mark ] "All the world's outcomes are a bell shaped curve and we are merely DRMs upon it." Henry's attack. 12:30 PM. Now the Y left is anchored on the impassable marsh. This makes this side of the battle much more closed in than the Y right (where Talcott is fighting) there Talcott was able to retreat to the north of the hill and separated from the main body. Here on the Y left it is a close in fight w/ no room to maneuvre. 1 or 2 of Norfolk's archers on his left, near the marsh, were hit at long range during the early morning sniping. Henry finally managed to get some of his infantry and cavalry to attacking this weakened line near midday. Henry routed some of the disorganized archers and inflicted some more hits before getting hit by terrific fire from Norfolks archers now changing facing to their left to hit Henry's inf/cav in their turn) I don't want to give the impression that one attack is not getting started until the others have stopped. Really Talcott, Oxford and Henry were fighting at the same time. While Talcotts inf. are being picked off, Oxford made his break for the center and Henry began his attack at some pt while all that was going on. SCORE BY QUARTER: it was 5-2 Tudor early on after Talbott's attack crested Now it's up to 8-4 after Henry's attack on the right got started. L were pretty much up by 4 most of the time, e.g. 6-2; 7-3. The score indicated is based on units elminated, none of the leaders were hit but they would count here as well. The Stanley allegiance and the NoU activtion are based on this score, see above. as well as the Kingdom lost die roll, which determines victory and accoring to the rules, is made after each activation once the score reaches 10 units lost. We did not play with this condition, see above. there are number of units in the battle w/ disorg markers on them at this pt but they do not count in the score. HALF TIME. The Tudor side is excited but still angered at Henry's moves. "Why the hell didn't you activate the Stanley's when we were up by four? Now we're up by only one and we may never get a chance." Note the Stanley's chances for entering the Tudor side start at 10% and rise 10% for every 2 eliminated untis you are ahead by. When they were up by 4 eliminated unit they had a 30% chance. Richard starts at 0% chance and also get boosted 10% for every 2 pts ahead. Henry tells them "I want you to be ready to do that pick and roll thing I showed you. We may have to rush forward some cheap units in order to lock onto the line of archers and then if we can activate another van right behind we can rush past them and close with the enemy." Oxford and Savage just nod. Note: taking the first hit from the enemy archers means you are disorganized but you can stay where you are. This will effectively screen the archers from fresh troops coming up behind the first wave. you can use cheap infantry or even archers for this purpose. Some of Nenry's archers are low accuracy so you might use them for this purpose. john Halvonik - 01:54pm Mar 23, 1999 PST (#507 of 507) "All the world's outcomes are a bell shaped curve and we are merely DRMs upon it." This is part four of the KfH playthrough, see last weeks posts for earlier chapters. Counterattack on Richards left: 2 PM. Archers on the hill knock out some of the forces in Henry's counter attack (L) and as Talcotts men on the north side are picked off, the score begins to tighten up: 8-7, Tudor (L). Richard has had a busy time of it all day long. Early in the morning he had to decide on just how to allocate his own large van, he elected to send much of the cavalry to the right (where they fought Talcott) and hold back the infantry for an attack from the left or center. As the attacks progress through the morning, he rearranges Surrey's men, sending the longer range cannon a little to the so. east of the hill where they can bomb the low ground on the left. He leaves the handgunners at the crest of the hill where their short range may bolster the already weakened line of archers in the center. Now on the left, down by the marsh, Richard's cavalry and some inf. launch their own counter attack. This closed in area is difficult for both players. This means that units will have to do that dreaded leapfrogging over one another in order to get close. Each side wants to get in the first punch, but w/ what forces exactly? One can push up archers to close range where they may get in destructive fire but only if they can activate a second time (they cannot move/fire in the same phase, but at a later phase in the same turn they can then fire). Alternately they may hang back at longer range (3 hex) and allow cavalry to push past them into the fight. (inf/cav can leapfrog through archers, but not vice versa) If the archers hang back, they will not be able to shoot over the cavalry (LOS) and may not be able to add any fire to the attack. Richard decides to push the cavalry on past the archers in order to close quickly. Back in the center Oxford intends to operate by remote control. He stands away from the main line of archers with a small force (2 inf/1 archer) connecting up with the extreme left. His main of line archers remain 6 strong and w/ only one hit among them. If and when he activates he can move or fire the archers in center w/o being near while at the same time he can take the small force and attack the center from another direction. A pincers sort of attack that just may work on the Yorkist archers on the hill who have taken a couple of hits and are now scattered in several clumps w/ gaps in between. At very nearly the same time, Surrey's cav chase away the remnants of Talcott's forces from north of the hill Talcott gets back to the stream where Oxford stands. Both sides cavalry in this vicinity engage in a strange sort of stand off as cavalry needs to get close (2 hexes) to use the DRM charging action. But too close and they may get flank attacked/charged by the enemy in turn. As it is both sides shadow box here w/o getting any closer. Richard cavalry near the marsh route some of the Henry's attackers (who had already been hit) before being eventually stood up by archers/inf back at Henry's still discernible main line. Richard send his own tough infantry in column to the left to support this attack, they will have to hurry to catch up to the cavalry but they can leapfrog over the archers. Missile fire now is not effective as they are screened by Richard's attackers. Now Richard actually leads 9-8! A good comeback after being down by 4 most of the early going. it was 6-2; 7-3 most of the morning. Richard tells one group of 2 archers who are in front of the hill and near the marsh fight to be careful of cavarly posting up (w/in 2 hexes) on their extreme flank and then charging on the next phase. It is dangerous for the archers because they have 1 of their own inf on their left flank but that inf will screen off (LOS) the archers and keep them from being able to rotate and fire at a posted up attacker. all in one phase. They could move back off the line and then fire to avoid the LOS but this will take 2 phases (2 separate activations, possibly in the same turn or two different turns). That may take too long. as pointed out earlier, archers in effect have a "fire zone" that stretches in front of them and depends on their facing. It is easy to rotate and fire in the same phase (PHASE FIRE, basically when it's your turn), but in this case a friendly inf. on the extreme flank will prevent this by LOS. A similar situation holds true were enemy archers do the very same "post up" maneuvre. That is because their is a field of fire, the enemy archers on the flank might have this line in their sight but not vice versa. This can be real deadly since when then enemy fire on this line (enemy is doing PHASE FIRE), the archers will not be able to return fire because they cannot rotate to fire during RETURN FIRE. In that case it's not the inf/LOS issue it's that you can't rotate and fire during RETURN FIRE. Thus there are several dangers when the enemy post up on the extreme flank of a line of archers due to field of fire and LOS considerations. john Halvonik - 02:48pm Mar 24, 1999 PST (#509 of 556) [ Mark ] "All the world's outcomes are a bell shaped curve and we are merely DRMs upon it." KfH (part 5) Now on the right, Henry's sends his cavarly to charge on the flanks of Richard's now immobile cav. (they had been stood up by Henry's infantry on the left). Henry's cav. work around their flanks and execute high DRM attacks and wipe these two out and press on to hit the head of the inf. column of Richard's very tough infantry now rushing onto the scene. They lock onto the head of the column but make no further progress. Cannon on the hill begin to fire on Henry's attackers. SITUATION AT 3 PM: Yorkist (Y) Side: RICHARD: still holding ground near the marsh on the left with 2 of his own infantry and 2 of Norfolk's archers. His cavalry was wiped out in Henry's counterattack. SURREY. Left with 1 cav and 1 inf on the right and the 2 guys blowing glass bubbles are on top of the hill. NORFOLK. Left with 5 scattered archers holding the center and the right center of the hill. Two are wounded. Cannon are in position on the left of the hill trying to get in shots on Henry's atack Norfolk himself is with a solitary cavalry unit back in the center (near where Richard's well would be) and near Surrey's handgunners. Lancastrian (L) Side: OXFORD still has a firm line of 6 archers in the center, 1 wounded. He himself is on the left center. After his dash down the hill he gathered a small conecting force of 1 welsh infantry and some archers to connect the center line of archers with Talbott's force still out on the right. TALCOTT. is now back near where he began on the left with 3 infantry. 1 is wounded. 1 archer; unhit. most of these did not make the morning attack. They are still being harrassed by archers from the hill and a mixed force of inf/cav threatens them. SAVAGE. Just getting the 6 welsh infantry into the fray behind Oxford's main line and slightly to the left. One of his welsh has been hit by archer fire from the hill where Norfolk continues to agressively post some of these guys in front of the hill. HENRY 2 cavalry remain on the right, 1 is wounded. He also has a welsh longbow from Oxford just to be able to hold up the right against Yorkist infantry.. The score is now 12-10 Lancaster as wounded units are being hit by archers and dropped on the odd occasion. Panic in the center. late afternoon. In the center the attack renews. Savage and his column of Welsh infantry now have a chance to set up a screen on an isolated knot of two archers on Y right-center. These infantry are the only large (6 inf) body of troops left to either side. Only one is wounded and they are in a nice column at the ready on the L left center (to the left of Oxford's line). According to Henry the plan is for the Welsh inf. to make the first activation but only to get w/in 1 or 2 hexes and not engage the archers on the hill. Then Oxfords line will advance and at least one of the cheap archers will glom onto enemy archers thereby nullifying their ability to phase fire should they get a chance to activate next turn. Some of the archers will protect the Welsh from taking missile fire and the rest will take up good firing positions vs the rest of Richard's line. Hopefully there will be a third activation and the Welsh can then move beyond the flanks of the enemy and engulf them with high DRM surround attacks. Even if only 2 activations the archers and Welsh will be set up for good fire and attacks on the next turn. Henry sees that his attack on the right may be faltering and now is the time. He give word for the attack on the center but the attack does not come off. The Welsh move up but somehow the archers fail to get the word to advance! "Treason, treason" is heard. (The archers are not allowed by rule to leap frog over cav/inf; and hence the attack was not well thought out. Ed.) That being the case, the Welsh (L) are now forced to engage the enemy archers alone as to hesistate would expose them to missile fire on Richard's turn. (this would be a given since the first activation in a turn is auto, Richard would be certain to use oxfords archers with the first activation). The results are predictable reaction fire from the archers wounds one and destroys another of the Welsh, the remainder of the column struggles to keep up a line in the rear. Oxfords archers decide to make the best of it and seek better firing positions as they cannot support the Welsh attack with fire due to LOS. Norfolk and Oxford now get into a long range archery duel as the battle lulls. Fields of fire are important as several archers can concentrate fire on a single archer and vastly improve the odds. (use the "fix" rule that says that archers can only return fire once per unit, hence an archer being fired on by three units can only get return fire on one unit, not all three. Ed.) oxford (L) still has the advantage in this fight as his units remain en masse and Norfolks are scattered and unable to return fire effectively . Still, several of Oxford's archers are wounded: a few more hits and that line may collapse. Oxfords archers get a couple of lucky hits during their return fire and put two more Y archers out of action. leaving only a handful on the hill. Norfolk's missile shooters on the left now destroy one and wound another of Henry's forces down near the marsh, there is not much left of Henry's line down here. Score now 14-12, Lancaster. Henry (L) actually has more wounded units on the field at this time as most of Richards wounded units were eliminated in the last go round. (ed note: the number of disorg. units tends to fluctuate as first one side attacks, takes hits, then the other side attacks and eliminates the disorgs while taking more hits themselves) john Halvonik - 12:26pm Mar 25, 1999 PST (#527 of 556) [ Mark ] "All the world's outcomes are a bell shaped curve and we are merely DRMs upon it." KfH playthrough (part 6) Note on activation. Throughout all this each player chooses which commander to activate and only that van under that commander will move/fight, i.e. only sections (aka "vans") of the army move/fight at any one time. The system is not: "I move all units, you move all units." You can move more than one van per turn, but the second and subsequent activations need to pass a die roll (60% for oxford's van, 40% for Savage's van etc.) Thus it is often a good idea to make the first, auto., activation with the low % van/commander and then use a good commander e.g. Oxford (60% chance) for the second activation. That is because the first activation is auto, you save the high % commander for the scond activation in order to have a better chance of making several activations in a row.. It leads to interesting choices, do you attempt to activate the lower % guy where the battle is hottest and get sure fire hits or use the high % guy w/ better chance of keeping the turn alive and doing more damage? This question becomes more important as the battle goes on and the battlefield becomes more mobile. WIth several activations in a row as one van can attack the enemy and then move around the flanks later in the turn. Richard's final attack. Near sunset. Richard is down 15-12 and is desparate to close the score. If he can finish off some of the numerous disorg units of Savage/Oxford he may stand a chance. At the current rate, Henry is likely to get to 20 just by exchanging of archer fire. Richard's relatively passive play throughout the day has been hurting him. This seemed a good idea at first as his superior archers are able to hem in Henry. But this strategy begins to fail as Henry attacks and gains the iniative. Henry paid a price in disorg hits at first but the investment has been returned in the form of eventual destruction of much of Richards front line as well as being able to dictate the pace of the attacks. Richard has a thin screen of inf. on his left and these he now gathers up and begins to shift to the center. He faces a dilemma with his archers (Norfolks van, a separate activation): they can close in on Henry weak right (2 units) and then shoot them up on a subsequent activation. If they can make the 2nd activation the close range fire would effectively destroy those units. Or they can attempt low % long range fire which doesn't depend on making another activation. Richard activates Norfolk and but instead of moving them forward he sends 1 archer back to the center of the hill and the other takes a long range shot and misses. Still the dice are with Richard as he makes several activations in a row-enough to gathers up Norfolks archers and his own remaining infantry at the top of the hill. He can play it safe and try to form a defensive wall at the top of the hill or use this activation now and proceed straight down the hill toward Oxford and Savage. Playing safe has not been rewarding to Richard so he elects to attack straight down the hill. At that pt. we decide that if you're behind in the score you've earned a draw if you can break through the lines and escape. That is if Richard can break out to the western or southern edges of the field I'd give him the draw. (Historical, no? Ed.) Likewise Henry would have to break out to the north or the east,it's too easy to run away to the south or west. Otherwise, as the score is rapidly getting out of hand, Richard's only chance would be to kill Henry who is now hiding behind Talcotts remainders on the far left. Richard heads straight for Oxfords connecting force, turning them aside. Now Norfolk gain another activation (the sixth in a row) and his archers on the hill shoot at one of Oxfords longbows in the front lines and gets the def eliminated; clearing the way for Richard's column. Richard's column gains another activation and pitches into the flank of Talcotts remainder down near the stream, he gets a couple of hits on one of the inf killing one and wounding another (15-14 lancaster). With luck, he might be able to drive this force along with Henry into the stream. Finally he misses an activation and it is Henry's turn, At this pt. Henry is tempted to activate Oxford first and get one or two certain hits on Richard's wounded units an almost certain score but would not quite end the game. But then Savage would go 2nd and he's only a 40% chance to activate. A good chance the iniative would pass Henry activates Savage first in order to set up a longer turn. Savage's column somewhat is somewhat distant from the action as they are in the center. They turn to the left and proceed down the right hand side of Scense stream toward Richard's column. Next oxford (60%) activates and shoots a few stray arrows, this is just to keep the turn alive. Then Savage activates again (thankfully) and now they pitch into the rear of Richard's column and knocks out 2 of his 3 remaining infantry. Then it is all over, Richard is caught in the open by the Welsh infantry and he is killed. Richard H. Berg - 03:59am Mar 26, 1999 PST (#528 of 556) [ Mark ] John . . .are you playing that you can't missile fire "uphill"? If so, that is a misinterpret of the LOS rules . . . Bob K. . . .as you may have noticed, lots of ancients stuff around. You should try the ones recommended, above; they have far more "color" than what you've opted for . . . The TSR JULIUS CAESAR. Tough game to design, if I remember . . . uses cards to some extent. I oughta look at it again; can't remember whether it worked or not *Brandon opts for the latter, but doesn't sau why . . .). Up next is JUSTINIAN . ..which is of different scale than the Vae V BELISAIRE, but it is interesting to read about the latter. The Reconquest of Italy was a rather unusual event . . . with manpower extremely limited. I haven't played BELISAIRE but, having done some work on a similar game (not JUST) I know it is rather difficult to get the right aura. Lots of destruction, desolation, etc etc . . .Intersting, in BEL, that the Franks depart so soon . . .they didn't arrive (historically) until after the death of Totila (at Taginae), whereupon they promptly got bopped by Narses at Capua/Casilium. That is considered the end of the Italy Reconquest . . . why do they leave so soon in BELISAIRE? PAX ROMANA is in the "Hold" bin because of a simple problem: the western Med powers (Rome and Carthage) have very little interaction with the Eastern Powers (Macedon and Syria/Egypt) until too late in the game. It's like two separate games are going on, altho that tends to change after mid-game. That, and it seems to take too long to play. So, it's on hold. It's not dead, it's just sleeping . . . CONQUEST & EMPIRE (a Europe-like series for ancients) awaits a decision by GMT on whether to go forward with the project . . .and when. RHB ------------------------- Brandon Einhorn - 05:51am Mar 26, 1999 PST (#529 of 556) [ Mark ] Campaigns of Julius Caesar (SPI/TSR) We played the game a few times and made a bunch of house rules. Its a tough subject to make a game on and Im not saying RHB did a bad job. But the game is not very good. There are all sorts of ahistorical (downright gamey) tactics. The reason for the invasion was the machinations of the Helvetti, but the Romans can enter the game and ignore them and concentrate on taking out many tribes before the gauls can get them. For the gauls it makes sense to attack neutral tribes because their card is unavailable and the Romans wont be able to subjugate them right away, it will take longer. You can make some impenetrable river defenses in the north. There is a tactic where its good to lose a battle in the opponents turn, retreat forward and penetrate towards Massilla. Its been several years since we played and I dont remember the exact details, but we studied the rule book thouroughly so as to be sure our tactics were legal. They were but they broke the game and made it completely ahistorical. Also the Gauls have a very passive position and its not as much fun as other guerilla games. There are some clever mechanics in the game (wheat, cards, leaders) and I wanted to like it. But it doesn't work. I doubt it was well play tested. ------------------------- john Halvonik - 11:05am Mar 26, 1999 PST (#530 of 556) [ Mark ] "All the world's outcomes are a bell shaped curve and we are merely DRMs upon it." Richard, yes that's how we played. As I read the LOS rules it says you have to see what you are shooting at and that you cannot see onto a higher elevation. It has been implied by Chris H that in that case both sides cannot see each other and hence neither can shoot at one another. (since the rule I am referring to is under LOS and this typically a mutual thing) He didn't actually say this but that's my take. What is the correct rule? ------------------------- Christopher Hall - 04:04pm Mar 26, 1999 PST (#531 of 556) [ Mark ] Now playing War Galley, Gringos and I:S john; I think the LOS rules in Kingdom for a Horse say that a unit cannot fire through terrain that is higher than the unit's terrain ... i.e. no indirect fire because the unit can't see its' target. But shooting up hill at a target that is visible to the firing unit is allowed, as RHB indicates above. If it weren't, Henry would be ... ahem ... f***ed. CJH ------------------------- Richard H. Berg - 03:08am Mar 27, 1999 PST (#532 of 556) [ Mark ] Re: the old TSR JULIUS CAESAR: " I doubt it was well play tested." That could well be said of many games; ironically, that was definitively not the point for JC. When the game was at SPI, the playtesters included Eric Smith, Fred Schachter and Nick Karp . . .afterwards, when it was inherited by TSR, they re-tested it. (Lord knows with who . . .). It's been some time . . .but I think that, shall we say, the years have been unkind to the design, which was never a "great one" to begin with. Again, difficult subject . . . I'd most likely do it differently "the next time". RHB There is an interesting inherent trait (I've mentioned this several times over the pasdt decade), called Structual Visualization . . .the ability to see 3 dimensions from a 2-dimensional object (like paper). Like tongue-curling, you either have it, or you don't. A lack of SV is why many folks simply cannot see what we (try to) tell them about Line of Sight. (By the way, this is not an insult . . .it is a factual condition.) No matter what the rules say, the no-SV person has great difficulty in understanding what it is he is to visualize. I use this as a preface to John H's position on LOS in KINGDOM because most (not all, most) gamers probably would't even need a LOS rule to play this game. That someone can interpret a LOS rule to say you cannot fire uphill is, aside from not having any application in the laws of physics, a sure sign that it is the Letter of the Rule that is important, not the Purpose . . .even when the Letter is being misread. There is a basic, all-purpose, covers anything LOS rule for all games. YOU CANNOT FIRE AT ANYTHING YOU CANNOT SEE. Everything else - EVERYTHING ELSE - is an explanation/example thereof. If you can't see uphill, I suggest you try out for a Road Show of The Hunchback . . . All of which is why I think writing LOS rules is a waste of time. Gamers either can see it, or they can't. And, if the latter, it's a waste of space to try to explain it. RHB Steven Bucey - 07:25am Mar 27, 1999 PST (#533 of 556) [ Mark ] Visit the Columbus Area Boardgaming Society homepage at http://home.earthlink.net/~cratex As a parenthetic aside, how many recall, or even used, the standard (not optional) LOS from Panzerblitz (TAHGC)? Or that funky grid from Panzer battles (SPI)? I happen to like tactical games, but I've talked to several people who never play them specificly because of LOS -- not just any particular game system's rules for it, just the fact that it uses LOS turns them off. ------------------------- Christopher Hall - 08:58am Mar 27, 1999 PST (#534 of 556) [ Mark ] Now playing War Galley, Gringos and I:S Steve; I gave up on complicated LOS rules a long time ago. I think the old GBACW LOS rules were as good as any. And frankly, I usually just eye ball it (with ties to the defender). Which makes it a lot easier to play, unless you are playing with a rules lawyer, in which case you're probably doomed anyway . CJH ------------------------- Dick Shay - 10:00am Mar 27, 1999 PST (#535 of 556) [ Mark ] I am smiling! The potential good news about computers is that they can figure this out for you and color code what you can see. The bad news is that everyone who has figured out the formualae wants a couple of million for the software because they think it is cool. I've seen it demoed for DOD projects and a version is used to plan out cellular phone cell location. The other bad news, as His Holiness states, is the some people don't get it even with a color picture. It appears to be a larger set than the people who don't see 3-D with the special glasses and can't see it with any current technology. Its their brain wiring, not their intelligence level. ------------------------- john Halvonik - 11:03am Mar 27, 1999 PST (#536 of 556) [ Mark ] "All the world's outcomes are a bell shaped curve and we are merely DRMs upon it." There is an interesting inherent trait (I've mentioned this several times over the pasdt decade), called Structual Visualization... No matter what the rules say, the no-SV person has great difficulty in understanding what it is he is to visualize. Holy shit! If I didn't know any better I'd think we were discussing my eyesight and not Berg's very specific rules to his very own game. I went back and read the rule under 8.0 Fire, subtitled LOS. It says under 8.0 that you must be able to see the unit you are firing at and to see LOS (below) in this regard. Under line of sight part 3) it says you cannot see hexes that are on higher elevation, which implied to me that you can see on a lower elevation. Else why wouldn't it just read you can't see hexes that are higher or lower? To further reinforce this, he has the usual LOS trace through the middle of the hex. Fine if a hex is higher than another the LOS must be going through a higher hex. Having no idea of what, pre existing information Berg expects one to have in order to read his rules, the imprssion I had was that this LOS rule was designed specifically for missile shooters (since they are the only ones that LOS is relevant for) in order to cover those on higher elevations, I had no idea one was expected to have a working knowledge of physics in order to interpret this to mean that just because LOS says you can't see "hexes on a higher elevation" and that LOS specifically applies to missile shooters, that DOES NOT mean that missile shooters cannot shoot uphill. Oh no. It could never in a million years mean that. Golly, how could I have missed that? How could I be so dumb to not even understand elementary wave particle physics. most (not all, most) gamers probably would't even need a LOS rule to play this game. Then why the HELL are LOS rules in the game? And why do the rules say they apply to missile shooters. That someone can interpret a LOS rule to say you cannot fire uphill is,...a sure sign that it is the Letter of the Rule that is important, not the Purpose...even when the Letter is being misread. Perhaps I'll just post the damn rule and third parties can judge for themselves. All of which is why I think writing LOS rules is a waste of time Fine screw the rule. NO FREAKIN' LOS RULES!!! So what is the correct way to play? Can I shoot uphill now or not? I'm leaving to join Brandon at the poison deer roast-PO Box 385 White Plains, NY. PS: RIchard, I cannot curl my tongue either. Which rule am I now misinterpreting? . . ------------------------- Roy K. Bartoo - 06:02pm Mar 27, 1999 PST (#537 of 556) [ Mark ] Kingdom for a Horse, Rule 8.0 Fire "Line of Sight (LOS): A unit must be able to see a unit to fire at it. To do so, the player must be able to trace an unblocked LOS from the center of the firing hex to the center of the target hex. LOS is blocked by: Woods; Combat units (unless on a level lower than firing unit); Hexes on a higher terrain level" To me, the rule appears to be saying that you cannot shoot THROUGH hexes at a higher elevation level than the firer, but can shoot INTO such hexes. Interpreting the rule to mean you can't shoot INTO blocked hexes would also mean you couldn't shoot into hexes with combat units, rendering the archers useless. Oh, and what is the !@#$ HTML code to tell the machine to insert a carriage return without using a blank line? That trivial little command isn't given in the 'quick-edit help'. Roy. Edward Sabatine - 05:58am Mar 29, 1999 PST (#547 of 556) [ Mark ] I think the problem here is people who are unfamiliar with wargames trying to play one. Fortunately, though we talk about bringing new people in the hobby no one takes it really seriously, because if we did there would be all sorts of problems with designers having to write clear rules and to make sure they work with the map and stuff. This is why I don't like tactical games. You're trying to capture what people see and what they don't see in rules and on a two dimensional surface. No wonder none of this is intuitive. ------------------------- Richard H. Berg - 06:20am Mar 29, 1999 PST (#548 of 556) [ Mark ] As I said earlier, some can see it . . .others cannot. (a fact, not a judgement). And yes, BSO games are geared to veteran gamers who have been thru the mill many times before, which is why I can be more terse (terser?) than in a game that could fall into the unsuspecting hands of an ingenuous ingenue (the best kind of novice). To which I add the fact that you should never assume someone knows something; there are far too many literalists out there. The rule, perhaps, would have been clearer if I added that you cannot fire at an object through an elevation higher than BOTH firer and target . . .because I assumed that was self evident. my apologies to the Literalists and the Visual-Structually Challenged. "RIchard, I cannot curl my tongue either. Which rule am I now misinterpreting? " The Three Nights in a Motel Rule . . . The irony ofall of this is that the site (Ambion Hill) for Bosworth is such a gentle slope that it would be remarkable only by militarists . . .and game players. RHB ------------------------- john Halvonik - 11:13am Mar 29, 1999 PST (#549 of 556) [ Mark ] "All the world's outcomes are a bell shaped curve and we are merely DRMs upon it." OK all those prevoius posts make sense now, sort of. ACtually Richard the "problem" with Ambion Hill is really more of what Ben alluded to. You've drawn it as a layer cake when that is not reality or even a close approximation. According to AH Burne the southern and western slope is about a 1/20 grade. Without measuring any nearby slopes, I would guess such a slope would be perceptible but hardly a factor going up or down. The north eastern slope according to him is about 1/10 grade which I would guess would be very noticeable and perhaps a minor chore to climb. The only real obstales to cavalry on this battle field would be marshy ground, fences if there were any, possibly stream beds and such. I have long doubted the value of movement rules that attempt to decrease movement alloance by "paying" movement points in order to "enter" hexes. While I know such an attitude will condemn me to eternal damnation in wargaming hell think about it for just a sec. It seems to me more accurate to factor terrain not really as a cost per hex but something that comes up only when you cross it. I'm not even sure "paying" MPs is the right way to go. One simple technique might be that you have to end that particular move when you run into a fence or stream. So you are always forced to pause at a stream or fence. Well, there are other ways to go with that, but the fundamental idea here is to stop paying per hex and think about when you've crossed some qualitative boundary be it fence or river or even marshy ground. For me hills and slopes are much more important to gathering intelligence as opposed to how much they will slow down marching troops. And while LOS may be reciprocal in a very superficial way, the vast majority of battles feature a one way flow of information. For instance if Jeb Stuart was standing on the wooded crest of Sugar Loaf (Poolesville MD) he could see a vast array of Union troops but they could not see him. This is by far the real world way that hills and mts affect intelligence-it is a one way street of information. As for the historicity of KfH, I think massed cavalry was never much of a factor in the English battles during this era. Well you might bring up Blore Heath but that account is mostly legend anyway. I have no doubt the French experience shaped their military theory and that is why massed horse was seldom used in this era. The only medieval English battle that I recall that really used massed horse was Hastings but there you go again: a continental army fighting in England. Again Ben is right on when he says that you really have to walk these battlefields to have true appreciation of what happened. There are so many nuances that cannot be picked up with a rough contour elevation map. For example at Gettysburg on Cemetary ridge there are a series of small swales that were noted by Gen Wright, that cannot be appreciated with a rought contour map and yet Wright's men were able to shelter among these and your LOS is greatly diminished when you are standing in one of them. ------------------------- Edward Sabatine - 04:21pm Mar 29, 1999 PST (#550 of 556) [ Mark ] I think movement rules don't factor so much the physical difficulties of movement, but the organizational difficulties instead. Consider something at the strategic level. You have a game of World War II in Europe, with monthly turns. How far can an infantry division move per turn, if you considered only the physical barriers? It can move across the entire length of Europe. If they moved by truck, that would be no problem. If they marched, maybe they could get from Paris to Poland in a month. However, if you are moving a combat unit what you are doing is writing orders, sending out the advance parties, making sure that you have the right equipment, making sure the subordinate officers and NCOs were on the same sheet of music, and so forth. Also, maybe the order to move comes during the end of the time the move comes. A tactical game with hourly turns and no movement factors might be intriguing. But the movement factors in wargames don't actually represent what a unit can physically move.